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Chris Buckenham
Experienced User
Username: chris_buckenham

Post Number: 28
Registered: 6-2012
Posted on Monday, 04 February, 2013 - 04:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hello Everybody ,

Last week I was in Dubai and had the good fortune to meet the one and only Omar Shams . Omar is an absolute Gentleman of the highest order and an outright enthusiast of all things of a motoring nature . Whilst discussing our various cars I mentioned to Omar that I had a head gasket failure last year on the Turbo side which I fixed myself , there were a few posting about this problem last year .
Omar asked me why this had happened and my reply was that I didn't know exactly , a temperatures were well and there had been no signals or even suggestions that there might have been a problem until a very small misfire and then Whosh , steam from both the exhaust and the front inside of the cylinder head in question .
We discussed this at length and the decision was made to post about this problem and ask the question , why does this happen ? I have seen numerous cars for sale here in the UK where the fact that the cylinder heads have been replaced has been used a selling plus point and has been majored on in the ad . A very well know dealer / specialist local to me here has told me that this type of failure is fairly common .
When I disassembled the engine I found a thick butter consistency emulsification at the junction in the valley between the heads and the block (note butter in my opinion is different to mayonnaise even Hellmans) .
The inside set of head studs/nuts were not at all tight on my engine , and very easily undone without the use of a bar .
So , if anyone can shed further light on this matter we would be both very interested and grateful . Omar's interest relates to the fact that the temperatures get so hot in the desert in the summer that if there is any form of known early warning and understanding as to why head gasket failure occurs then he may be able take pre-emptive action to prevent such a failure .
Any opinions welcome .
Thank you
Chris
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Bob Reynolds
Experienced User
Username: bobreynolds

Post Number: 28
Registered: 8-2012
Posted on Monday, 04 February, 2013 - 05:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Both cylinder heads went on my Silver Shadow whilst it was parked overnight on the drive!

I started it up and a huge cloud of smoke came out of the exhaust. So much so that I couldn't drive it on the road. It was alright when I parked it the night before.

I couldn't tackle a head job on my own, and the mechanic I took it to told me that one of the A bank cylinders and one of the B bank cylinders had blown. This is still a total mystery.

There is some evidence that the engine had overheated under a previous owner, as the thermostat beads had all gone, but this would have been many months before, and the engine was running perfectly,
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 317
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Monday, 04 February, 2013 - 12:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Chris has been too kind with his words about me. I have been told by many that I am a total git!!
Like Chris said, the crux of the question is this " why would the fasteners be loose?". If that was the cause of the failure then maybe an annual torquing of the bolts is a good preventative action. Do these bolts loosen up with added pressure (for boosted engines)? was the loosening a function of boost pressure? or was it temperature excursions? or is it a materials issue?
I am dying to know.
PS If any of you ever meet Chris - The man is a legend. Anyone who has a JCB in his garden (and not in his son's toy box has to be cool eh!!
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James Feller
Prolific User
Username: james_feller

Post Number: 267
Registered: 5-2008
Posted on Monday, 04 February, 2013 - 02:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

a very interesting thread and one that I have pondered with a fellow gm enthusiast well known to this forum.
Now I don't know the answer directly but Id like to put forward a scenario that the later the car the worse or more prone to headgasket failures from what ive expirenced. Im talking Turbocharged cars only re this thread. Omar I know yours is a 90-91 model RL I dont consider this a 'later' car. Im talking 95 to 97 Turbo cars with Zytek and Bosch 3.3 engine mgmt systems. Its my opinion that Crewe in an attempt to wring more and more performance from the old 6.7 V8 put the design of the engine (remember it was 30 years old by the time our beloved Turbo Rs came along in the late 80's and through to the late 90's) perhapes under too much stress.
I too have read that its very common for headgasket failure in late 90's Turbo charged cars and I believe that the wringing of every last horsepower from the ole lump through evermore sophisticated emgine mmgt means was just maybe a bit too much for the ole V8....
Rememeber in its 89 Turbo guise with KE3 motronic engine mgmt on paper the Bentley Turbo R was capable of producing some 350hp-380hp and 500nm of torque. Later cars saw these figures climb to 420 and 450 hp and 650nm....this immense performance was being developed in an engine that was originally designed in the late 50's to develop a max of 300hp. When it went into the cars of that era ie the 60's, it was of course detuned and I believe about 200hp was about as good as it got for 25 years or so until the advent of our early turbos and then later fuel injection.
Now this could all be coincidence and as I said its my opinion only. But its pretty rare in earlier turbo cars say from 87-93 to read they have had their 'heads done'. I reckon the earlier cars (late 80s and early 90s )are still relatively low stressed engines and the engine mgmt systems are not ever allowing the engine to work too hard.
Once Zytek Performance came along 95' and on, then 3.3 motronic and the like, plus liquid cooled intercooling et al, all this wonderful stuff back then when it was new was wonderous and did make a very well perfoming car even better in terms of out and out performance. Think the last of our SZ'ds, Bentley RT's were absolute stormers! 0-100klms in 5 secs et al....I mean truely amazing for such a heavy car but I've always wondered with these later cars......are these later engines just under too much stress compared to their earlier turbo stablemates??? and hence my statement that rarely do you see earlier Turbo cars with chronic overheating issues or multiple headgasket failures. I know of 5 very late model cars here that have ALL had their gaskets done. Again I'm no mechanic so above is my theoretical ponderings only. But I've wondered this very issue too gents, and like you would love to know why some cars seem to go and go and go with never an issue and others have problem after problem.
(Im of course not talking about crap boxes that have been abused at the hands of idiots and completely left to go to ruin and driven into the ground till they stop...)
I hope i haven't just tempted fate too much and im touching wood, i'd hate to go down to the garage and see a pool of coolant tomorrow....

J
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Neville Davies
Experienced User
Username: nev_davies

Post Number: 49
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Monday, 04 February, 2013 - 05:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

James.It seems here in the UK some dealers are keen to point out that any SZ car between 95 and 97 and not just turbo cars should have a receipt for new headgaskets in it's history .Reasons given include blame on new engine design,if so why should new gaskets cure it? and lack of build quality,surely not for so many.I guess the history books will tell us one day.

Nev
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 956
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, 04 February, 2013 - 07:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

As Neville points out, once changed the gaskets last, or certainly seem to so far.

This points to a bad batch of gaskets (design or material) or the heads not been torqued down correctly when the engine was built. Or both?

Another theory is that antifreeze changes have been neglected, and with the higher stress etc and the type of gasket they fitted at that time, these changes are more important than on the earlier cars.

One colleague insists that the cars that he has been looking after since nearly new ( and changing the coolant regularly, as opposed to charging for it but not doing it because of mechanics bonus rates) , has NEVER needed a head gasket, whereas he has had to do plenty on cars that are new to his workshop.

We always recommend a complete change of fluids for cars that are new to us as prevention is definitely better than cure. Unfortunately car components don't care a **** about books with FMDSH stamps, just if they have actually been lubricated.
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Michael Hicks
Prolific User
Username: bentleyman22

Post Number: 104
Registered: 12-2011
Posted on Tuesday, 05 February, 2013 - 01:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

When i had my firs Bentley there was comments floating around about Head Gaskets So I did some asking and the verdict was that they where made of the same material as Rover used on there K engines and once the gaskets where changed there wasn't a problem
I have also heard the same re Antifreeze and this was so with Rover and we where told to change it every Year
Jaguar had the same problem head gaskets going on the V12's in the late 1980ís some times they would come in and when the heads where off you could see the trace mark in the head and once done no problem
When I Bent My Push Rods on the Bentley and had to get in the Middle I did check the head Bolts and they where ok
I am know in the Danger Zone (60000) so what do I do change them before they go
Or Wait till they go ?
She is due a engine service and will have new antifreeze as well (it is 18 months old)
All so I know you all think I am mad but I all so thing keeping the temp down in the Engine bay and rads when the motor isn't running is a must
As I donít like the shape off the arnage so this car will be around for a bit longer
So I will be changing the front wingís for the same as Mulliner with the vent kit to the engine bay if extra cooling is good for them it is good for me and as we all know we donít need heat in the engine bay
If you look around you will see different color Antifreeze I think this is so companyís know your running the correct stuff and I think it has something to do with the head gaskets and the fact that there is something in it to stop then from braking down
And if you look around a lot of car companyís have this problem and I donít see any difference with Bentley
(This is only my thinking so donít take it as gospel)
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 318
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 05 February, 2013 - 04:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dear James,
Yes you are right my Turbo RL is a 91 model car but my Continental R is a 97 model. I am scared of the consequence of head gasket failure on both cars as I have already replaced the engine on my 91 Turbo RL when it blew its head gasket. Maybe the head gasket failure on my 91 car was due to poor cooling system equipment (viscous coupling, radiator etc). I will never know. I do know that I have protected the 91 car from overheating by making a bespoke radiator out of alumnium. Its a real work of art actually.
The reason I changed the engine was becuase it was a cheaper option than repairing the failed head gasket.
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Michael Hicks
Prolific User
Username: bentleyman22

Post Number: 105
Registered: 12-2011
Posted on Tuesday, 05 February, 2013 - 06:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Electric fans arenít just there to keep engine coolant cool there for several other reasons
when the engine starts up from cold the last thing you need is a big fan turning and keeping everything cool you need as much heat in the engine as fast as possible to help with getting rid of friction this is one of the worst concernís for wear (a cold ENGINE)
with the design of the Air filtration being in the wing there isnít a problem but as some of you do know that on the later cars Zytek was fitted with Air-to-liquid intercoolers (aka Charge-Air-Coolers) are heat exchangers that transfer intake charge heat to an intermediate fluid, usually water, which finally rejects heat to the air. These systems use radiators in other locations, usually due to space constraints, to reject unwanted heat, similar to an automotive radiator cooling system
The cost and weight of the system wasnít fitted for fun it was fitted for a reason ( Removing Heat and making the engine more efficient )
Radiators are designed for cooling for one ( and other things )and when in traffic or running stationery need to bee cooled at a Certain temperature A Fan is used as you only need it for Certain times why have it running all the time when you donít need it ? and have the fertility to use it when it is needed to much heat
Water pumpís are common wear pointís with a grate big fan on the front with a big clutch as well
I am not surprised just think a water pump just pumping water with no stress on it !!!
Then there are the electrics getting hot and hotter sitting in the engine bay with on cooling when the car is stationary
So if a fan cutting in and sucking air throw the A/C Condenser then the radiator and then blowing it over the engine and wiring keeping things a bit cooler
Most cars have A/C on bored to keep you at a temperature you have chosen so your driving along and your nice and cool then you stop for a nice cool drink but youíre A/C Condenser is getting hot and as the engine is off so the fans wont work
But your electric cooling fan cutting in and throwing some air over the engine and accessories and all so helping the engine doing what it was designed to do with out extra wear and tear on its components isnít that a good thing
We all keep on about finding that after market or what ells was it fitted to but why not when it is worn out just put it in a box and put something more modern on that if you have problem you can get a replacement from your local car parts place
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Chris Buckenham
Experienced User
Username: chris_buckenham

Post Number: 30
Registered: 6-2012
Posted on Tuesday, 05 February, 2013 - 09:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Omar ,
Thank you for your kind words , however you have given the Wife full ammunition now and it is important to note that the digger isn't actually in the garden , but can sometimes be seen from the house .
On the head gasket matter I can't remember where this came from but there was mention that the car would have had an issue B Crewe gasket when new and that Crewe are currently supplying an issue D gasket . The new gasket was market TOP and there was a D on the other side .
Mr Yorke has hit the nail on the head when it comes to service history , all the history under the sun etc but I don't reckon the bleed nipples on the rear had ever been undone . So maybe coolant condition is a big factor .
Chris
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2775
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 12 February, 2013 - 09:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

By the way, on head gaskets, there are pitfalls when changing the coolant in later SZ cars, and having discussed this with many may I offer a suggestion as it is a likely cause of head gasket failure on even the best-maintained vehicles ?

The book procedure for filling most SZ cars misses a vital step. Before filling, lift the LHS front of the vehicle to tilt its front bumper at 15 degrees. That helps the bleeding process enormously !! Many of these cars run for a few weeks dumping coolant after a refill even when the book procedure is observer to the letter until all the last bubbles self-bleed, but the tilt method never fails to make the job quick and sure. Many bemused mechanics miss this point. Furthermore, I do suspect that retained air in the system could be the main cause of head gasket failures in the cars before the mid 1990s when a few other factors were at work too.

Incidentally, the same head gasket, part number and all, applies to all Crewe 6,230 and 6,750 V8s from 1958 until at least 2003. That explains why the head gaskets alone are still rather inexpensive, even if the peripheral parts required for the job and supplied in decoke kits put the price back into the mid-range of automotive spares prices like Opels and VWs.

RT.
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Ernest Carty
New User
Username: edcarty

Post Number: 8
Registered: 12-2012
Posted on Tuesday, 12 February, 2013 - 10:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi all re gasket failure,in the UK it has been suggested that in 93-94 the engines in SZ series cars were built by Cosworth.For some unknown reason apparently they did not use Heli Coils in the Blocks and this is supposed to have caused head Gasket failure.After having spoke Rolls/Bentley mechanics and specialists differing opinions have emerged some saying it is more or less a problem and was corrected when Engine building was returned to Crewe.I have seen many cars for sale where Head Gaskets have been replaced particular 96-97 models.Is it possible that Excessive acceleration causing high boost pressure for longer periods could cause gasket failure or could it also be a cooling problem ?All comments would be welcome.Ernest
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Bob Reynolds
Experienced User
Username: bobreynolds

Post Number: 30
Registered: 8-2012
Posted on Wednesday, 13 February, 2013 - 12:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

All this cooling system talk has me a bit worried.

I own a 1975 Shadow. Are any of these special procedures necessary when refilling the cooling system? The manual just says to fill it up and check the level, basically! There is no expansion tank. I always thought that the unusual arrangement of the separate header tank was to avoid airlocks in the system.

The reason I ask is that I did have a mystery head gasket failure (see above).
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Geoff Wootton
Frequent User
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 78
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Wednesday, 13 February, 2013 - 03:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bob, I can understand your concern after the strange event of blowing both cylinder head gaskets.

I would go with what the manual says, however the important thing is to measure how much coolant goes in. The capacity is 16 litres.

I replaced the coolant a few months ago on my 74 SY1. I measured how much came out to check it was fully drained. Since I was replacing the thermostat I half filled the system by pouring the coolant directly into the open thermostat housing. Then fitted the thermostat and filled from the header tank. No problems. I think the important thing is the measurement of the amount of coolant that goes in.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2776
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 13 February, 2013 - 03:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bob,

Indeed a Silver Shadow (SY) is less problematic. The SZ cars have their expansion bottles located at increasingly lower levels than the radiator top tanks as the series progresses, hence the problem with air pockets unless properly bled to purge all the air. Many SZ's run for months with the top radiator tank dry even with the expansion bottle full, and to the dismay ow owners they regularly dump coolant after a warm run. The big danger there is the possibility of localised overheating causing head gasket failures and worse.

On the SY, the header tank sits ideally located: it is right on top of the radiator's top tank and bolted to it. The system does not suffer in the same manner as the SZ as air naturally escapes through the header tank without purging. On the SYs, the system will purge itself of air rather quickly. It is usually sufficient to fill the system and let it settle, then to squeeze the top radiator hose again and again until you can tell that there is only coolant inside. After a run to open the thermostat and allowing the motor to cool, you may still need a litre or so to top it off, so don't drive too far until the level is stable after a few checks.

RT.
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 331
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 30 April, 2013 - 02:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

well...............
it was inevitable really..............
mine had to be next!!!
the very car I took Chris and his lovely family in for a short drive when they visited Dubai had to succombe to the very same failure that we spent the evening discussing. A mere two months later, my Continental R exhibited the same puff of white cloud from the exhuast and that was the signal of the blown head gasket. All the same signals as seen by Chris in his Febraury 2013 post were present in the same sequence.
I am furious. It has nothing to do with overheating the car at all. Just poor quality gaskets that were installed on these cars at that time. If yours is a 96/97 car, then watch out for an expensive garage bill, or many days of hard work. Taking the engine out would have been easier. I have farmed the job out to an Engineering company managed by a knowledgeable British Engineer here in Dubai. My wallet will be a little ligher soon.
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richard george yeaman
Frequent User
Username: richyrich

Post Number: 84
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Tuesday, 30 April, 2013 - 03:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Sorry to hear about your trouble Omar I hope all will be well soon.
Cheers.
Richard.
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Chris Buckenham
Experienced User
Username: chris_buckenham

Post Number: 32
Registered: 6-2012
Posted on Tuesday, 30 April, 2013 - 07:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Omar ,
Oh dear , what a bloody shame . You have got the matter under control from the sound of things . If you need anything I can UPS parts etc overnight for you . Have the firm in question done one of these before ? It is really not that difficult at all in terms of engine work , it is the induction gear that is the problem .
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 333
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 30 April, 2013 - 07:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dear Chris,
I appreciate your concern. Thanks for your kind offer and support.
I have the head gaskets already thanks to our friend Paul Yorke (another smashing chap form this forum).
Here is something very interesting. After your note about the loose studs, it was my intention to tighten the holding down bolts on the two heads but never got round to it before the gaskets failed. Upon disassembly the workshop reported how unusually tight the studs were. The workshop mentioned that they needed to put long extensions on the socket to break the studs loose in contrast to your loose studs.
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Chris Buckenham
Experienced User
Username: chris_buckenham

Post Number: 33
Registered: 6-2012
Posted on Thursday, 02 May, 2013 - 07:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Good evening Omar ,
Well , it is just such a shame .
If I remember correctly the head studs / nuts are well within the realms of normal torques. Have the heads warped at all ? Maybe they have been off before ?
Best Regards ,
Chris
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 336
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Thursday, 02 May, 2013 - 03:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dear Chris,
I will never know if the heads had been off before or not, but it is highly unlikely that they have. The car is 16 years old and in that time who knows what could have happened. The heads dont appear to be warped. We will carry out a crack detection test to make sure they are good to go back on.
Thanks
Omar
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Michael Hicks
Prolific User
Username: bentleyman22

Post Number: 114
Registered: 12-2011
Posted on Saturday, 04 May, 2013 - 06:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

It is a problem that has happening to a lot of 1990's cars not just Bentleys
I think you will find that the heads are OK just need skimming (cleaning)
yes it is a lot of work as Chris has found out ( but he Loves it )
I am on 65000 so me next Ha Ha getting bored any way
I would change the Hydraulic Lifters just for fun and saves a lot of time later there are some yanky ones on the market hat are suppose to be very good and 50% less than RR&B
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Stefan Morley
Grand Master
Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 371
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Saturday, 04 May, 2013 - 06:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Commiserations Omar,

Part of my interest with my assorted cars is the strengths and failure modes of the assorted makes. While you can always get a car on it's own that was simply a fault waiting to happen or one that was badly maintained causing a problem. But when similar things happen to the same cars it has to be a design flaw. One of my pet cars is a Toyota Supra. They are notorious for blowing head gaskets. Bullet proof engine otherwise. Simple design flaw, the head torque from manufacture was too low meaning the head bolts weren't operating in their elastic region. Memory serves me think the spec is 55 ft Lb. Test where carried out and found to get the bolts to operate in their elastic region started at 65 but reliable at 70. Has also been discovered that 85+ potentially causes cracking of the head. Ultimately Toyota picked a safe operating region to prevent cracking but ended up being too low with the net result.

Similar issue with older air cooled VW engines. Engine runs hot and the long head blots stretch over time. Useful to know if one works a VW.

Ramble Ramble, get to the point, be interesting to find out if there was a design compromise with the 90's cars and if a way could be worked around it. Not that I wish the problem on anyone but once there useful to see if there is something that could be done.

Stefan
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Michael Hicks
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Username: bentleyman22

Post Number: 115
Registered: 12-2011
Posted on Saturday, 04 May, 2013 - 07:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

must get a new Key pad this is getting a mind of its own
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Stefan Morley
Grand Master
Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 372
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Saturday, 04 May, 2013 - 07:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Guys

Something thats always seemed a little arbitrary to me is torque settings of many head gaskets on cars with composite gaskets. Typically its torque up to X then tighten another 90 degrees. Makes sense in that the composite gaskets are compressible to a degree and this process does that. But the resulting torque settings can vary quite a bit meaning you are "probably" operating in the head bolts elastic region. Exactly where unknown. Supra's case definitely not, but that more a design compromise with the alloy heads not being strong enough to cope with what the bolts ideally need to operate at. Metal shim gaskets on the other hand are quite absolute.

Food for thought
Stefan
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2820
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 04 May, 2013 - 12:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP


quote:

I would change the Hydraulic Lifters just for fun and saves a lot of time later there are some yanky ones on the market hat are suppose to be very good and 50% less than RR&B




A very bad idea. In fact, the worst decision that you could make in maintaining these motors. Lifters are best left alone as new lifters are very hard on the camshaft. If a lifter is badly shot, and that means that its face is scuffed, replacing it alone is a last resort. Generally, a new camshaft is required when replacing lifters, although if one or two are bad you can take a chance with a used camshaft. The later cars like the Arnage T have roller lifters, and that is a whole new game of woe. As for those cheaper US lifters, they are not usually suitable: the oil channels usually need machining and the pushrod seats have a different spherical radius. Many have been put in and work fine only to go to ground after a few thousand kilometers. Take care !}
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2821
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 04 May, 2013 - 12:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

By the way, the head gaskets were upgraded a few years back and are proving brilliant - trouble-free when installed in the conventional manner. The UT12890PD head gasket is the one for all Crewe V8s from the 1958 S2 through to the Arnage R at least. Fortunately, they are cheap even by Holden standards. Skimming the heads should be avoided unless absolutely necessary as they can usually only be skimmed once before they are at their limit.
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 337
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Sunday, 05 May, 2013 - 01:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks for your insight Richard. and thanks for your commiserations Stefan.
Omar
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Stefan Morley
Grand Master
Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 373
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Sunday, 05 May, 2013 - 07:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard,

Do you have a technique for narrowing down which lifter is causing a problem? Fairly certain it only one.

Tried a mechanics stethoscope but tough to narrow down the problem and the noise only lasts a couple of minutes. Solution is to run it more often but be useful to know the degree of the problem. Bit of noise periodically not so bad, bent pushrod or worn out cam not so good.

In another state at the moment and the car only gets taken for a spin periodically. Once warmed up it's not an issue. Don't notice the noise if it's a fortnight between runs but start to if it's been a month. But no idea how to narrow down which one.

Once car and owner is in the same state be less an issue. Two bald tyres and fuel pressure regulator prevents me getting the Qld safety at the moment.

Stefan
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1009
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, 05 May, 2013 - 09:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Stefan,

How long does the lifter stay noisy for?

How long does the car have to stay idle for before it gets noisy?

Have you changed the oil and filter annually regardless of mileage?

Add wynns pre oil change cleaner to the oil before changing it.

If it doesn't stay noisy for long, it may just be the valve springs depressing the lifter. Wherever the engine stops it will be pressing down between two and four valves. The depressed lifters will naturally leak back over time and be noisy immediately upon start up and this is not a problem.

A bent push-rod or damaged cam will not really get any quieter with use.

If it has a noisy lifter sometimes when it starts, you can mark the front pulley where the engine stops with a letter and then keep a diary of how noisy it is when you start the car. When you have enough start v noise data you can see If it is always most noisy when pulley mark is in one position, You can then turn the engine to that position, remove the rocker covers and find out which valves are depressed. That should narrow it down to two ish.

Pre oil change flushes and new oil often helps.
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Michael Hicks
Prolific User
Username: bentleyman22

Post Number: 116
Registered: 12-2011
Posted on Sunday, 05 May, 2013 - 09:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks RT for the info
just a little confused
My Last Turbo R 1987 had 175 on the clock when i got it with rattly lifters so fitted the US ones and when I sold the car at 240 they where still in there
I will take on bored what you say
all so I know some ex Jack Barclay Tec's that use them and that is why I used these sorry but i think I will put them in the RT when I have to open her up
I will take on bored what you say about Head Gaskets is there a after market one or one that they use for racing as you (RT) have been playing with turbo's i will take on bored what you say on this but there must be something to stop this from happening
Michael
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1010
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, 05 May, 2013 - 09:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

By the way, the head gaskets Bentley now supply were upgraded a few years back and are proving brilliant - trouble-free when installed in the conventional manner. The UT12890PD head gasket is the one for all Crewe V8s from the 1958 S2 through to the Arnage R at least. Fortunately, they are cheap even by Holden standards.}
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2822
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 05 May, 2013 - 08:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Stefan,

The method I use is as follows. It takes some work but does the job.

Remove the rocker covers. Wearing a gardening glove, start the motor cold and push on the valve end of each rocker in turn. The noisy ones will change pitch instantly when you push them.

If you remove tappets, be sure not to mix them as each breaks in to its own cam lobe. This is a once-only process for a camshaft lifting a conventional hydraulic tappet as opposed to a roller tappet. If the suspect tappet has a clean face, just open it up and clear the crud. Replacement is the last resort. Never, never replace a tappet unless absolutely necessary, even if the replacement has the correct radii and oilways. A spares salesman will always reluctantly dissuade a customer from replacing tappets. The wise ones are content that a no-sale will possibly avoid a warranty wrangle. New tappets require break-in grease on the cam lobe to minimise the damage. As a guide, a tappet may be replaced just once in the lifetime of a camshaft, and even that is highly undesirable unless the tappet face is unserviceable.

Honestly, apart from worn lifter faces there is nothing that goes wrong with these tappets apart from sludge and crud deposits and the occasional damaged plunger spring.


Much has been said about applying oil additives prior to an oil change, but my success with the stuff is zip. Each to his own.

Incidentally, the Arnage T motors are showing a rather poor reliability in the camshafe area including those roller tappets. Spares sales data is quite worrying.

As to aftermarket head gaskets, the main spares outlets will not go down that path. They source the gaskets direct from the firm that supplies Crewe. At less than $100 each there is little room to complain about price for the exact component.

RT.
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Chris Buckenham
Experienced User
Username: chris_buckenham

Post Number: 34
Registered: 6-2012
Posted on Sunday, 05 May, 2013 - 10:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Good afternoon All,
I tend to feel the problems wouldn't have occurred If I had fitted a Kenlowe fan.
Omar , I was originally going to be in Dubai at a show at theAl Bustan , but my wife reminded me that it would interfere with my 40th today. Sales manager has gone instead and after all it his job.
Best regards
Chris
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2823
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 05 May, 2013 - 10:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Chris,

You imply that cooling is a problem with our cars. Omar would know better than anyone about that. Certainly it has never been an issue with any Crewe V8 in Australia unless something is out of shape. Running too cool due to a faulty thermostat seems to be the biggest risk.

I stuck a temperature recording strip to my transmission and radiator once. Those are the $3 strips which change colour to show the highest temperature endured. In very harsh conditions the radiator reached 65C and the transmission 90C. Given that the motor runs at around 95C in all conditions by virtue of the thermostat where is the concern ?

RT.
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 338
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Sunday, 05 May, 2013 - 11:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I have to admit - my head gasket did not fail as a consequence of overheating. The cooling system was working perfectly. Also the failure occured during the coolest part of the year for us. Only 8 months prior, the car was seeing ambients of 50 degrees C and coping admirably.
Now that both heads are off, the failure can be seen on both gaskets. I will try to upload the photos of both failed gaskets.
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Chris Buckenham
Experienced User
Username: chris_buckenham

Post Number: 35
Registered: 6-2012
Posted on Monday, 06 May, 2013 - 08:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Men , hello , where is your sense of humour today ? Of course I have been generally plastered for most of the day , if not all weekend.
Chris
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Stefan Morley
Grand Master
Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 374
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Monday, 06 May, 2013 - 08:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Paul and Richard,

Paul,
Noisy for a couple of minutes if not started in a month. Progressively shorter for more frequent running. Doesn't get noisier, it get quieter.

Change the oil and filter once a year or every 5k which ever is sooner. Can't say what happened before I bought the car.

No I hadn't put a pre-cleaner through, generally avoid additives but guess it can't hurt if it's added prior to an oil change.

My gut feel is it is exactly as you describe, just one lifter more so than the others. My caveat about the push rod/cam is more the progression of a fault more than what I hear at the moment, defintly not a problem to that degree. Tell you what the car does need is a really long drive. Figure once the tyres and fuel regualtor are sorted the 2200kms from Adelaide should sort a few things out.

Interesting thought process marking the pulley. Defintley makes sense.

Richard,

Makes sense, but running the car with the rockers off, be a bit messy with oil going everywhere if the car can even be made to run. Imagine the injection lines have to be removed to get the rockers off. Some stage I'm going to follow your trick replacing the valve stem seals (still impressed with that), think they are in need of it. Imagine I would be able to feel how much lifter leak down was occurring at that stage.

Give me something to do when I finally get hold of my car again.

Thanks Guys
Stefan
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Michael Hicks
Prolific User
Username: bentleyman22

Post Number: 117
Registered: 12-2011
Posted on Monday, 06 May, 2013 - 09:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

They Don't Have any It Is all the Fosters they drink
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Chris Gillings
Frequent User
Username: chrisg

Post Number: 86
Registered: 4-2001
Posted on Monday, 06 May, 2013 - 01:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

No-one in Australia drinks Fosters. It's an appalling excuse for a beer. My local grog shops don't even stock it anymore because they couldn't give it away.
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Stefan Morley
Grand Master
Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 375
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Monday, 06 May, 2013 - 01:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Yep export the stuff we don't want :-)

Try a Coopers Sparkling or even a Vintage if you can get your hands on one.

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