| Author | Message | ||
     Brian Vogel Experienced User Username: guyslp Post Number: 26 Registered: 6-2009 |
Hello All, In trying to answer a question regarding a 1983 Corniche with mineral oil hydraulics I realized that I am not entirely clear about when (or whether) Corniches became SZ cars. Obviously, the pre-Seraph-era Corniche was born as an SY series car. Somewhere along the line (and I'd venture 1981 as a guess) the Spirit/Spur and Bentley Derivatives were all SZ cars. At the same time it appears that the Corniche also inherited the mineral oil hydraulic/brake system, but did it keep the majority of the SY mechanicals otherwise, remaining essentially an SY car? When, if ever, during the SZ era did the Corniche become an SZ in virtually every respect except its skin? Brian | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1031 Registered: 4-2003 |
During the Shadow era, the Corniches was used to road test future modifications before they were incorporated into the high volume models. These would have been cars destined for UK delivery so a close watch could be kept on them during evaluation. For this reason, it is important to examine the build cards to determine what modifications may have been made on a particular chassis and this means the definitive books on the Shadow era are light on specification history for the Corniche derivatives. I would have expected some pre-SZ Corniches to have been fitted with the mineral oil systems with the full changeover occuring just before or after the SZ release. It is possible the final stocks of RR363 components held for production and not spare parts may have been used up on Corniches for this reason. The final changeover to mineral oil systems on the Corniche would have depended on how long they took to work their way through the coach-building process and the relative priorities given to the production and coach-built cars. Ex-factory deliveries of Corniches were not sequential by chassis number due to the variations in individual specifications requiring more or less time in assembly and testing let alone the reworking that often occurred. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2415 Registered: 4-2003 |
SY coachbuilt cars (Corniche, Camargue) switched to LHM at Chassis 50,001 in March 1979. They formally became SZ cars when the chassis identification system changed at chassis SCAZD008CCH05037 for the 1980 model year when the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration chassis numbering system was adopted. Hence SC for Rolls-Royce Motors Limited, A for Rolls-Royce brand, Z for SZ cars, D for drophead Coupé etc. The 11th character is a C for Crewe. Note that many mechanical components were rationalised for the SZ version, whilst some older hangover items like viscous couplings and radiators continued as coachbuilt-only versions for some time. For example, 50,000-series SZs have brake pumps which look like an RR363 pump but are slightly different in tolerance and of course so-rings. SZ coachbuilt cars have brake pumps like all SZs, with a special spanner required for the top adaptor and the introduction of a locknut underneath. RT. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 791 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hi Brian - It really does depend on what you mean by an SZ car. As RT says, strictly that was with the move from Chassis Numbers to Vin Numbers. Most people would probably say it was when LHM was first used and 'Spirit Based' or 'SZ Based' Camargues and Corniches got it in 1979. Well before the Spirit was released. So really, I suppose, the Spirit got the Corniche/Camargue Mechanicals in 1980  "SY coachbuilt cars (Corniche, Camargue) switched to LHM at Chassis 50,001 in March 1979." or more correctly* . . . When they switched to LHM they switched the Chassis numbers to 50000 (no 42000 to 49999 Chassis numbers) As David says, look out for 'TU' cars which may have prototype items on. * 'correctly' is not the word I'm looking for but it's escaping me at the moment. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2418 Registered: 4-2003 |
Paul, When next you, or anyone, see a 50k coachbuilt car, could you look at the engine number ? If it's still an SYL number, then maybe they shouldn't be calles SZs. Also, I would be interested if all those cars, not just the Californian ones, have the positive crankshaft front and rear seals. RT. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 792 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hi Richard, I'll take a peek at the engine number . . . . but as helpful as I like to be, I won't be whipping the gearbox out to have a look at the rear main! lol. Maybe they will be like the Corniche 1A's? - IIA's? | ||
| James Feller Prolific User Username: james_feller Post Number: 172 Registered: 5-2008 |
can I even suggest the easiest way to check would be to look at the brake and suspension containers...??? if in 2 round containers with green fluid then its LHMO if in older style grey unit its RR363?? would this not be the easiest way to determine. RT and PY, I thought a bit earlier 77-78' onwards got LHMO? but that may be the 'II' nonclamenture Im thinking about.... anyway ill go now and stop confusing the issue... the Prat and his Turbo Bentley have to torment others... | ||
| Mark Herbstreit Frequent User Username: mark_herbstreit Post Number: 87 Registered: 5-2005 |
Richard, My Camargue JRH50085 was the first mineral oil Camargue delivered, (sep 1979). It has an SYL number. It has the Shadow cooling system. The brake spheres have moved from one each side on the Shadow II to both on the lower RHS on the Camargue. Does this mean I have a DY/Z Camargue? | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 822 Registered: 6-2006 |
James, Depends what you are checking for! Brian was asking *when* they became SZ cars, but unfortunately, he hasn't been back to clarify what he's asking (or means by an SZ car) when they went to Mineral oil, or when they went to SZ chassis numbers. "Does this mean I have a DY/Z Camargue?" *SY/Z* | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2458 Registered: 4-2003 |
Let's settle for a Silver Shadow II / II-SZ. Or an SY III. No, damn it. Hang on. The SYL engine number is good enough for me. Thanks Mark. Let the powers that be decide, but I would like to think of your car as a 50k SY, and assume that the coachbuilt SZs started at chassis SCAZD008CCH05037 for the 1980 model year when the NHTSA hit us again. For the N (National) in NHTSA, read USA where National means the The Only Nation on Earth, which by default includes The Whole World, The Moon, Mars and the Universe of Nonlocality as nothing exists outside the USA afterall. | ||
| Brian Vogel Experienced User Username: guyslp Post Number: 42 Registered: 6-2009 |
Paul Yorke wrote: Brian was asking *when* they became SZ cars, but unfortunately, he hasn't been back to clarify what he's asking (or means by an SZ car) when they went to Mineral oil, or when they went to SZ chassis numbers. Well, I hadn't "been back" because until last night this thread had long been dead, but now that it's alive again. . . What I was asking is when, effectively, the mechanicals became for all intents and purposes SZ mechanicals. The SY Corniche body was retained well after they were definitely SZs under the skin. It also seems that some of the late Camargues (prior to adoption of the full VIN numbers) were essentially SZ cars, as were some late pre-VIN Corniches. There really does appear to be a period where the very late SY cars are really kinda, sorta, SZ cars as far as what's lurking under the body, but they're not *quite* there yet. These cars are hybrid SY/Z beasts. Other than California bound late SY cars, I don't think that anything prior to the SZ series had fuel injection, either. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm mistaken about that. | ||
| Mark Herbstreit Frequent User Username: mark_herbstreit Post Number: 88 Registered: 5-2005 |
When in doubt check the Chassis cards. A Mineral DY= (*SY*) it is!  |
