| Author | Message | ||
     davide frada New User Username: davidef Post Number: 9 Registered: 11-2008 |
hello Chaps, having not long ago purchased a Shadow, i have contracted what i fear is an incurable disease, and now find myself contemplating the purchase of a Mulsanne Turbo from a friend. the car is rather nice, but has a tendency to run hot. the thermostat has been replaced with a genuine unit, along with the fan clutch. the radiator has been professionally cleaned. if the car is started from cold and is left to idle for extended periods, it will maintain temperature. it can be driven perhaps 15 minutes before the temperature rises, and once it has, it does not drop whether at speed, in traffic, or at idle. according to a digital thermometer, once hot it seems to settle at about 95-100. one anomaly i noticed relates to the distributor vacuum advance/retard module, which appears to have a leaky diaphragm. i wouldn't have expected, though, that this of itself would cause hot running. is the turbo (84 carb car) that sensitive to timing? and since it needs to be replaced anyway, is there a commonly available replacement part, perhaps from a Rover V8? many thanks d | ||
| James Feller Experienced User Username: james_feller Post Number: 46 Registered: 5-2008 |
Hi David, The old Mulsanne Turbos with the solex downdraft carbs always ran pretty hot. In fact I have read some articles that said they ran about 10-15' hotter than the normally aspirated car. Due no doubt to the huge turbo bolted to the front of the engine, this will heat things up a bit!!!!You say you have had the rad done. Just make sure the cooling fans infront of the condensor are working to help the main fan. You would certainly expect to hear them coming on. Temp gauge readings could very well sit at 2 or 3 o'clock if hot and your cruising. My own car, a Spirit, tends to sit about 4 o'clock on the temp gauge and rises to 3 o'clock position if hot and its cruising along, the thermo fan comes on pretty quickly in this hot weather we are having at the moment too.... David, as this car was not originally set-up and delivered to Aust, it may not, and I am not 100% sure of this, have bigger cooling systems and oil coolers to cope more effeciantly with the hotter climate. The earlry Turbo's were for the UK home market only. If it cracks 30' in the UK they think its a heatwave.... Just make sure the cooling systems are in top notch and thermo fans are all working properly as an absolute first base. As for parts interchangability with Rover V8... I have no idea although I would doubt it... I am sure someone alot more mechanically minded on this forum would be able to answer this for you. I kinda like the early Turbos' though... also just as a side observation, as the under bonnet temps were much greater than the normally aspoed car they did have issues with warping carb seals and the like... I assume you are going to get all this checked out. Cheers J | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1064 Registered: 4-2003 |
Davide/ I have had one '86 Turbo arrive at my door which lasted the new owner a few hundred miles then stopped. As I had as much interest or affinity with the model I pleaded a broken leg, advanced hypochondria, and acute alcoholism and directed the car, then on the back of a truck to my favourite tuning man since the NRMA said it had no ignition. The tuning man for whom I have the greatest respect both as a professional and a person has only just started speaking to me again! His first step was to remove the distributor. It would not be removed. The unit would lift an inch or so then jam. The tuning man declined further service. Next to a formerly dark haired man now somewhat greyer who specialises in these vehicles. He removed the transmission and, remembering the access hole at the back of the engine block to get at the camshaft, discovered that the bottom end of the distributor shaft was bent and the bronze drive gear on the camshaft was almost eaten away! Apparently some genius had decided that a Falcon distributor would be better than the original! That's Ok but they didn't bother to change the distributor drive shaft gear whose pitch etc was amazingly, was different from the RR one! The original distributor was found, repaired and refitted along with a new drive shaft gear. Then followed a 6 month sleuthing of circuits and systems trying to identify other areas of carnage. The professional, formerly a good friend has also just started speaking to me again and the owner has a disnctly haunted look. Apparently these cars while they do not have an engine manament system as we know them today did have knock sensors and a processor to react to them. All or at least most of this paraphenalia had been ripped out or tied up under the dashboard. Another extraordinary feature of the car was an auxilary catalytic muffler in the cross over pipe between the two exhaust mufflers. Being right at the front of the engine it was no suprise to find that this was almost crushed flat by another cretin jacking the car up by means of the muffler. That got extracted and a new crossover pipe made very quickly. Eventually the car went and went it went like you know what off a very hot shovel. It is a noisy mother but when you stow the boot it hears the call and lets you know exactly what's happening! Were I 30 years younger I would probably have that car and probably kill myself! The owner was delighted, although following the payment of the bill his eyes seemed to be rather lacrimose for quite some time! The beast as I started to call it adopted an automatic steering feature with a love for the left hand side of the road. The attraction was so strong that the owner started to have obvious bicep build up so in a demented moment I agreed to look at the suspension. Having pulled it all to pieces the only really worn bit was the inner upper arm suspension bush. The cretin club had worked out how to repair the remaining wear bits but the task of removing the front springs was beyond them. That fixed,the old girl now steers like a train. The Solex 4-A-1 carburetter beloved by, among others Mercedes and Lancia had indeed warped and recovered by some judicious rubbing on abrasive paper on glass. The warping by the way is caused by overtightening of the carburetter. I believe the spec is 5 inch/pounds - about equivalent to the pressure used to put the lid on a ketchup bottle! The four retaining bolts go right through the unit so that overtightening twists everything. No more carburetters are available and even so the last price from Crewe was about $9000.00! As you would know this was the Factory's first attempt at turbo charging their motor. They apparently decided that if they stuck to carburetters and devised a way of piping compressed air into into the things all would be well. This was achieved by putting the carburetter, a four barrel device not unlike the well known Holley unit, into a metal box and pressurising the box! The finished engine bay looked most impressive but to those who were faced with fixing, the view was a bit intimidating. This car's final attempt at being scrapped was to unpredictably flood the very large carburetter then partially fill the box. The resulting atmosphere in the latter must have run at about 50% fuel - not conducive to running. Well I once again succumbed and gingerly experimented with one bit after another and eventually solved the problem with a new float and needle. I share all this with you Davide and any readers who have not left as there must be a few of these cars languishing in sheds somewhere, abandonned out of sheer fear. They should be recovered and restored because they are probably the last 'romantic' Bentleys made. The subsequent injected cars with all their fancy engine management systems and sound proofing etc are like driving small living rooms by comparison. As to temperature unless you feel the performance is suffering I would not worry. Check that the timing is correct and get a new vacuum unit from Factory as that would of course be sucking air. Make sure your high pressure pump is working and that the regulator on the side of the box is correctly set lest the engine is running lean which would also heat things up. This is an odd quirk with the model. The turbo when at maximum puff pushes the box pressure to about 7 psi as I recall. If you have the pump input at say 3 psi it simply aint gonna get that juice in eh! That is why they used a fuel injection high pressure pump rather that good old skip and think SU plodder pump which on a good day downhill may hit 1.5 psi! Finally as to tuning, can I suggest you touch base with Bob Chapman and his son Neil at RA Chapman in Bayswater a suburb of Melbourne. They have a dynamometer and have done a lot of work in these areas. | ||
| davide frada Experienced User Username: davidef Post Number: 11 Registered: 11-2008 |
James, thanks for your input - very much appreciated. the aux fan doesn't work, but as the temperature also rises when at speed, i wasn't terribly concerned about this (in terms of solving the problem), being that the volume of air passing the radiator at speed is greater than the fan could muster anyway. which is the aux fan switch and relay? i have used a rover V8 distributor cap on my shadow quite successfully, so wondered if perhaps there might be other distributor related commonality. i think late Australian SD1s and 80's Range Rovers used vacuum advance/retard too. the carb is of concern to me, but the car doesn't exhibit any flat spots, so i presume its alright for the moment. are there other symptoms? thanks again davide | ||
| davide frada Experienced User Username: davidef Post Number: 12 Registered: 11-2008 |
Bill, as always your input is appreciated. my memory may be failing me, but i have some sense that i have spoken to you on the telephone some time ago for advice regarding the purchase of an early peacock blue Shadow with a burnt valve and firmly stuck heads. i chickened out at the last minute, which was a shame, as i believe the very same car was driven across the country six months later. before the thermostat, fan clutch, and radiator were attended to, the car was said to get hot enough to ping. generally speaking, it takes some turning over to start, but i guess fuel vaporisation is inevitable given the induction arrangement. i have heard that a faulty fuel pressure regulator can contribute to this also. as it stands, the Shadow has more urge off the line compared to the Bentley, but once it winds up, amazing - and addictive. i can't help but think along the lines of a turbo Shadow.... davide | ||
| Colin Silver Experienced User Username: colsilver Post Number: 22 Registered: 8-2008 |
What's wrong with that? It got it out of the mechanic's garage and he got paid for it. Would have worked in enough time for the cheque to clear.
Which brings out the Alf Garnett hanky headbands I had dreams of buying a 10 yo RR or Bentley as a daily driver, even though it is out of my socio/economic persona. I could do it as I squirrel money. But I hadn't factored in the horrific repair costs, let along services. Possibly why a new RR or Bentley seems to lose $100,000 in depreciation a year. | ||
| Neville Davies Experienced User Username: nev_davies Post Number: 17 Registered: 9-2006 |
James F says (if cracks 30 in the UK they think it's a heatwave) Let me assure you it is a bloody heatwave! Nev | ||
| Paul Yorke Prolific User Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 262 Registered: 6-2006 |
"They should be recovered and restored because they are probably the last 'romantic' Bentleys made. " Oh Bill, but what of the expense of the romance - and the heartbreak to. I love a happy ending, but have a cynical feeling the love affair may end in tears, rejection and acrimony. These girls are definitely the most exciting and unpredictably fun rides you'll get. What's the saying though? Cheap lovers make expensive wives! | ||
| Paul Yorke Prolific User Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 263 Registered: 6-2006 |
The main problems are as Bill pointed out price and unavailability of parts. Apart from the carbs which were a disaster on the nat-asp R-R & B let alone putting them in a pressure cooker. The knock sensor circuit is imperative to stop engine melt down. The ignition timing ECU's are unavailable and (as far as I know ) un-repairable over here. Running without one at anything more than 1/2 throttle is too risky. Driving a Mulsanne Turbo at less than 1/2 throttle is impossible because the amazing rush you get is too addictive. Davide, does your fuel pump run when the ignition is on, or only when your oil pressure light is out? If it doesn't run when the ignition is on, does it run when the car is in gear and you turn the key to start? Fuel Vaporisation is one of the faults on these. | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1065 Registered: 4-2003 |
Paul/ What is the story of these cars. Why were they made and how many were made? The only gossip I have heard is that BMW were keen to get their hands on the drawings to see how they were designed? | ||
| davide frada Experienced User Username: davidef Post Number: 13 Registered: 11-2008 |
Paul, the pump runs with the ignition on. i daresay the knock sensor circuit is inoperative, as before the thermostat/rad/clutch was done, when hot, the car would ping under load. so if these cars have an ignition timing ECU, does this mean the vacuum control is redundant? would a modern mapped ignition system be a viable solution in the event of failure? what are the symptoms? | ||
| James Feller Experienced User Username: james_feller Post Number: 47 Registered: 5-2008 |
Bill, From my reference books 519 Mulsanne Turbo's were made from 82' to the introduction of the Turbo R in 85'. None of these cars were made for any other market other than the UK. It was an answer to Sales and Marketing Mgmt in Crewe at the time to 'reinvigorate the Bentley'... the main market Crewe were looking at was the US. Ironically being carbouretted the emissions these cars produced were thus prohibitive in the US. Note the Spirit/Mulsanne on its introduction to the US in 81 all were FI Bosch K Jetronic cars. RR adopted fuel injection across the board for its 87' year model cars. Here in Australia from my memory 88' Turbo R's were the first models set-up and destined for our market. I think this would be the case for the US as well and just about anywhere else with pretty strict emissions laws. Hence anything from 82'to 86' is going to be a 'grey or private' import from the motherland. Ironic isn't it that the most lucrative market that the Turbo was intended for ( the US) did not get the car till some 5 years after its inception. From what I can recall reading it was a sales success for the company. The earlier Mulsanne Turbos' while being wonderfully quick in a straight line were all early Silver Spirit underneath which meant trying anything but dignified cornering would have been like playing Russian Roulette with an Uzi. Davide, all this leads back to your question... I think the general consensus is 'do you really really really need the heartache'....??? Again, I kinda like the old Turbo's but for me a pre active ride say a nice 88 or 89' Turbo R would be much better money spent. You would leave a corner still pointing the the way you entered, it would perform much better thanks to fuel injection and as they would have been set-up for wider market operating conditions there is a good chance it will be a reasonably reliable car. Fuel injection while derided in some circles is simply a god send for these cars. My own car while having the early K Jetronic system that was mandatory in all 86' model year cars for Aus means I get better perfmance and far better fuel economy over the carbs. Ohh and Neville don't get me wrong, I love a warm English day, its simply wonderfully when the sun is shinning over there, its all you buggers in sun chairs and shirts off in Hyde Park that's the scarry thing.... :o) Cheers J | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1066 Registered: 4-2003 |
James/ Thanks for that. Being the rank amateur that I am I have been dragged screaming through 'development' even after rebuilding my Dawn and swearing that I would have nothing to do with later cars. My limit sofar is indeed a 1990 Turbo which was a delight. Fuel injection however has always frightened me because of its complexity but experience is showing that it is virtually maintenance free from what I can see. The system was first used on the Shadow II's for California which was the only way they could get the things into that State. The '86 Turbo I experienced was actually a Japanese delivery and your remark about emmissions was certainly born out by what must have been a desperate measure to pop a cat into the cross over pipe in the exhaust system. The other tale about fuel injection involved the hydraulic pumps. These things seem to be a regular maintenance item. When injected cars started to force their way into my little garage I viewed the rear pump with a very jaundiced eye believing from a quick glance that half the injection system would have to be removed! Eventually I was committed on an '87 Spirit. Old age does bring a little prudence so I hied me to my mate in the Midlands and asked for him to tell me what to do and I would do it! Before starting we had to nip down to Sydney for something, when we got back, bugger me the apprentice had done the job! Fortunately he had put something in wrongly so he had to pull the whole thing out which I insisted on doing! It's not a bad job after all. Incidentally I have been unable to find any mention of the procedure in a manual!! | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1553 Registered: 4-2003 |
Ahem, Bill, http://rrtechnical.info/sz/sz87/gh/g7-8h.pdf page 4 (G8-1) in the manual has the procedure to replace the pump seals alone, or to remove the pumps, on injected cars. RT. | ||
| James Feller Experienced User Username: james_feller Post Number: 48 Registered: 5-2008 |
ahhh, well I should have mentioned Bill, the Bosch injection systems are virtually maintenance free, both from what I have read and experienced first hand. You have to thank the Krauts for this.... these systems were used on the 600 Grosser V8's and 450 series cars, they are strictly speaking mechanical fuel injection. Looking around my engine bay the word Bosch reassuringly is mentioned much more on the fuel delivery and electrical componets than the dreaded Lucas " Prince of Darkness". Although didn't Bosch acquire Lucas Electrics at some stage? On my first car about 15 years ago, an 85' Rover Vanden Plas ( I loved this car to bits, perhaps too much as it fell to bits faster than I could keep it repaired, the Lucas Electrics kept it at the garage more than the on the road... the only saving grace was the 3.5 Rover V8 which was perfectly reliable but I digress) The only thing I have ever had done to my FI was a carbon clean on the fuel metre head and this nessesitated the removal of the unit. Frankly it was done when I had the rocker cover gaskets done. To be brutally honest the difference was barely noticable to me, the engine always idled smooth. But I suppose its one thing I can tick off thats been done so it should remain in situ for years undisturbed. If memory serves too, I think Vawsers did the front and rear pump seals while they were at it as another precautionary 'why not'.... The flip side to the FI systems is the computers that run them. While not being over burdened with electronic wizardry they do have the delightful task of controlling the air meters and flaps, oxygen sensors and atomised fuel delivery to the cylinders in a precise order and volume as to enliven that wonderful 6.75 V8 lump. If these computers 'go' they are trouble to get remapped and new replacements are frightening... about 2-3K. In saying this its pretty rare for the FI computers to pack up from what I have heard. The Active Ride computers are much more likely to call it a day before the FI systems do. Hence why I am on the look out in a few years for an 89 Turbo R to add to the stable. As for manuals on the proceedure... no idea why they are not available... Yes you're right re Shadow IIs for California Market Bill. These did indeed get Fuel injection from 79-80 I think, the last of them. Lovely old girls that they are too! Back to Davide's Turbo Mulsanne... it would have an approx $20K asking due to the list of issues Davide has gone into not to mention its going to be a private import from the UK ... Davide you could easily spend $20-30K on this old girl to get it right and then some... $50-$60K would get you a terrific Aussie delivered Turbo R these days...weigh it up mate, and ask yourself the key question " am a prepared to put up with the heartache" .... my advice would be to keep your friendship with your mate and leave it is his garage and take it for a blast when its working.... Just my humble opinion. Cheers J | ||
| davide frada Experienced User Username: davidef Post Number: 14 Registered: 11-2008 |
James, thanks for the info. i realise the Mulsanne Turbo was home market only, however, i'm told there were some exceptions. apparently, half a dozen Australian businessmen managed to sneak one car each into the country under the guise of farm/industrial equipment. this is said to be one of the cars. not of much consequence now, but at least it is a dry car. i really don't see how the issues could be so expensive to resolve given some ingenuity, but i freely admit, i'm a relative virgin when it comes to RR. the same sort of horror stories abound relating to Jaguars, yet i find them to be perfectly manageable and acceptable, though i have the benefit of doing all work myself. the two are in a different league in terms of parts prices, i know. the way i see it, one could resolve the turbo related issues using more modern technology, though whether this could be adapted to work with a carb is open to question. you are right, Bosch CIS/K-jet is wondrously reliable and rarely requires attention. MB used it from 76, replacing the D-jet electronic systems (and IP based systems such as that used on the Grosser and Pagoda SL). so far as MB was concerned, early versions were almost entirely mechanical, only gaining electronic mixture control during the mid 80s (CIS-E). i don't know whether Crewe followed a similar path of development. just quickly getting back to the car in question, do you know where i'd find the aux fan switch and relay? | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1557 Registered: 4-2003 |
I do know of a few (Carburettor) Mulsanne Turbos and carb Turbo Rs imported new into Australia, at least two even boasting local delivery somehow. I remember seeing the first at the Sydney Airport parking station in April 1982 just after seeing them on release in Geneva 1982. I even know who the owner was (not personally). Incidentally, the K-Jetronic (naturally aspirated cars) has electronic fine-control of the mixture in a closed-loop Lambda setup on Cat cars. Non-cat cars are purely open-loop mechanical with no electronic mixture control except for a few solenoids for fast idle and warm-up etc. The KE2-Jetronic used on the first injected Turbos (September 1986 for the 1987 model year) and K-Motronic (1989 MY Turbos) all have electronic fine-control of mixture, especially on full boost, and also closed-loop Lambda control with a Cat. Whilst often maligned, the Carburettor Turbo R (not included in the production figures mentioned in an earlier post by the way) are actually quite sought-after. They are quite trouble-free until bodged I hear. They are really not very complicated, and that has unfortunately attracted unskilled maintenance and dodgy spares. Let’s face it: we don’t own old cars because they are modern still, and a carburettor Crewe turbo is a delightful and collectable piece of work. They go almost as well as a non-cat injected Turbo R, and quite a bit quicker than a cat car. Early injected Turbo Rs have the advantage of having only an engine speed limiter and no road-speed limiter, and with the UK-spec 2.28:1 final drive I can personally assure you that, having hit the 4500RPM rev limiter on the Autobahn quite a few times myself with the 2.28:1 on my Turbo R, they happily wind out to well above the 140MPH of a 2.69:1 Mulsanne Turbo, carb Turbo R and Turbo R injected export cars. Let alone the 3.08:1 naturally-aspirated cars.. The carb cars sure suffered when Subaru methods were used on that wonderful recirculative-intake Turbo system with the unusual pressure box. It was a bit sad when the injection replaced it, but at least they retain the recirculatory system which gives that unique complete lack of turbo lag, until the 1988 intercooler was introduced to slow it all down from chassis 23211. I would hope that a Mulsanne Turbo or carb Turbo R is only scrapped for the same reason as any Silver Spur, and certainly not simply because it has a four-barrel carburettor. Have a look on our own www.rrtechnical.info site for the locations of the switches and components for the auxilliary fans. They work on both the aircon and on coolant temperature. RT. | ||
| Paul Yorke Prolific User Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 264 Registered: 6-2006 |
The main problems with carb turbos are due to the carbs and the immense amount of heat under the bonnet and now the lack of AFFORDABLE parts. In the late 70's R-R wanted a little more uumph out of their sports models but wanted it quickly and cheaply - so looked at the SU Carbs and exhaust systems. The solex carburettor was 'shoved on' to give that little boost. Unfortunately it was not good on the NAT-ASP cars ( Camargues and Corniches. They are ridiculously complicated and were notoriously troublesome from day one. Many cars had new replacement carbs (or more than one )fitted when new and under warranty. They are not a happy carb and will find something to go wrong with them and go out of tune with the least provocation. That same carb was then put into a pressure cooker and fitted to the Turbo. This not only magnified the problems due to the heat and pressure, it also meant that it was really difficult to work on the carb in situ. Then add to that a battery of valves and solenoids, a load of rubber tubes, plus a couple of ECUs made only for the Turbo, all being baked to excess. Try and bend any engine looms or wires on a turbo car and you are likely to end up with a handful of plastic shrapnel and bare copper.  These are UK cars I'm talking about, driven in UK weather conditions. Nice dry Australian cars may be an advantage due to the lack of rust, but will they have got even hotter and more cooked? You'll have to check that Used parts are rare and more expensive than the NAT-ASP and FI cars. And of course the parts that you will want will also be the ones that have already been sold or have failed on the cars that are being re-cycled! There are of course beautiful and near perfect examples out there, and museum condition cars, that are wonderful. But in general . . . . . Then there is the added wear to all the suspension and transmission components because of the sporty nature of the car and enthusiastic driving techniques. Plus the extra heat on the front suspension bushes and the wear on the spring top plates. Buy one as a collector and put it in your museum, but as an every day car or regular use car . . . . :/ Something that's great to drive when going well, but rarely a pleasure to foot the maintenance bills on. Don't even consider buying a worn out one! | ||
| James Feller Experienced User Username: james_feller Post Number: 49 Registered: 5-2008 |
from what I have been told by experts here and read for myself Paul your assumptions and clearly your expirence is spot on. Some people pontificate on about our cars to the point of blind idealism and sillyness, I would agree all the cars have their own special charater absolutely! But one must be pragmatic no matter the 'enthusiasm' or even condition of vehicle, these particular cars, early Turbo's, do have known, common and fairly troublsome weaknesses with their induction, cooling and handling. It comes down to what you want the car for as you say Paul. Something to back out on occasion and go for a drive with your fingers crossed.... or perhapes find somthing with the irksome weaknesses remedied and drive this without fear of impending and frankly very expensive trouble.... | ||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Frequent User Username: lluís Post Number: 57 Registered: 8-2007 |
Happy new year I do not want to talk about things that I do not know (Early Mulsanne Turbos) but my experience with other brands (Jaguar) tells me that some cars which were maligned when new can metamorphose with some parts which were not available then. Take the S-II XJ12 or he V-12 S-III E-type. Overheating was literally a nightmare when the cars were new (which destroyed head gaskets, heads, melted the seals of the airco piping and most plastic under the bonnet, including the air-cooled battery). Nowadays, most surviving examples are equipped with modern high flow Kenlowe twin fans (a huge improvement over the original electric fans of the E-type and auxiliary fans of the S-II, which committed suicide when they saw a traffic jam approaching) these seem to remedy the overheating problem. Then there was the ignition, cured nowadays with the ABC distributor system with integrated ignition computer. The infamous XJ40 has a self-levelling rear suspension that is wonderful when working but which never works. Re-manufactured Boge dampers and electric valves cured completely the systems main faults (splitting diaphragms when suspension raised after a bump and sticking valves) and I hardly hear of problems with the system nowadays. Some people also changed to mono-tube Bilstein dampers, which gave a similar ride quality but not a constant height. The list could go on. All these because I simply asked myself a question: Cannot really the problems of the carburetted turbos be cured with quality, non original, non RR, after market parts? i.e. The overheating with high flow kenlowes, the ignition problems with an ABC integrated distributor (as used in modernized Jag Stright 6 and V12 and Rover V8)? This is just a question, not an opinion or statement, it's just that like David I am surprised that some of these problems cannot be remedied nowadays. Best regards, Lluís | ||
| Paul Yorke Prolific User Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 269 Registered: 6-2006 |
Llu�s, The Turbo's were praised when they came out . . . but the problem is now. The opposite of the Jags I guess  Yes, I'm sure most of the things could be cured, but at what cost? In fact 90% of the problems can be cured by buying one item. A FI Turbo. All the best, Paul. | ||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Frequent User Username: lluís Post Number: 58 Registered: 8-2007 |
In fact 90% of the problems can be cured by buying one item. A FI Turbo. :-) Brilliant! No really, I had a good laugh. I guess you are right, as you would be advising for a S-III HE V12 over a S-II V12 as a matter of fact. It's just that in some cases (like me and my Jag) you have a particular attachment with a given model or car (I have an early XJ40 which was my mother´s when I was a kid, so I am being partial here). I just thought if simply one monster Kenlowe fan (with an upgraded alternator) discretely in front of the radiator would not prevent a lot of the problems which are mentioned for "just" a few hundred dollars, provided that the car in question was healthy in the first place. Of course if the car is already bad when you get it, putting damage right could take an order of magnitude more. By the way, am I mad or did the early turbo's not have an intercooler? I checked some pictures and the piping seems to go directly from the turbo to the pressure cooker.  | ||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Frequent User Username: lluís Post Number: 59 Registered: 8-2007 |
Ohhh yess, the pressure cooker might be silly, but I have to admit that it looks just great with all those submarine style bolts. No wonder the carburettor suffers in that torture box. | ||
| Paul Yorke Prolific User Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 270 Registered: 6-2006 |
What. . . . an intercooler . . . . And waste some of that precious heat ????? The cooling system is good enough to cope with the heat inside the engine, it's the engine compartment that suffers. Coach builders like Hoopers used to flute the bonnets, like the E-types. | ||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Frequent User Username: lluís Post Number: 60 Registered: 8-2007 |
Sorry, I just saw on Richard's post that the intercooler was added later on in the range. In that case, indeed it had to get pretty hot in that box, making the 9000 dollar carb sweat a lot. | ||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Frequent User Username: lluís Post Number: 61 Registered: 8-2007 |
I did think that one of the options could have been to flute the bonnet like in the crazy V12 Jag MK2 conversions done in Sweeden which have a pushing-pulling air arrangement (pushing from the front of the radiator and pulling with 6 -six- high flow, mini-kenlowes) from below the bonnet flutes, but I was to afraid to post it as I though it was a silly idea. What is the principle of recirculation? As Richard describes it its almost as if the box was pressurised all the time (no lag then), but does not drive ability become an issue, for example if using engine breaking by manually selecting the intermediate gears? Lluís | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1562 Registered: 4-2003 |
This thread is propagating myths. Myths, such as that the Mulsanne Turbo is a vastly different car from a Silver Spirit and that it has fundamental problems. Off the grass, mate. These myths are unkind, and spread silly untrue rumours. They should stop, because as they say, thrown mud sticks. Lluís, none of the issues that you cite apply. The Solex 4A-1 may have upset some people, but really that’s it. That the Mulsanne Turbos are barely different from their naturally-aspirated brothers is scarcely mentioned, nor that the detail improvements of the Mulsanne Turbo were gradually introduced across the board, and finally in total by the 1990 30,000-series cars. Corniche cars lagged the others for the first time. The design is so clever that they lose nothing by adding the turbocharger. Even fuel economy is improved, albeit probably mainly due to the higher 2.69:1 final drive. Let’s start with the cooling system. It is the same oversized system as on the other SZs, and never had any inherent deficiencies, Turbo or not. Water pump: the improved Mulsanne Turbo spindle bearings were copied by the others 10 years later. Electric coolant fans: all cars have these. They are rarely needed other than when the climate control compressor pressure is high, and rarely when the coolant temperature switch cuts in. Underbonnet heat. No change. A turbocharger, idling for 99% of the time anyhow, has no effect, nor does the carburettor style. Don’t even bother to compare that to the excruciating underbonnet heat of a V12 Jag or Mercedes 6.9. Solex 4A-1 carburettor; as used on most Corniche cars since their arrival (meaning rebranding) in 1972. The 4A-1 islso fitted to various Mercedes-Benz and BMW cars until the mid 1980s (ie without injection). Fiddly to tune, but so what ? That’s a small price to pay. They needed checking and possible tuning for the statutory tests annually no more than fuel injection systems. Spares are out there if you look at the MB and BMW sources. Solex is owned by the French division of Magneti Marelli. Levelling: same as across the range. It is very reliable and consequently the service requirements are regularly overlooked deliberately. As with all features, they improved over the years across the range, the Turbo cars leading as the others used up frame contracts supplies and parts bins. Engine: Hepalite reinforced pistons, introduced across the board in 1990, as was increased oil cooling. The dame 8:1 compression ratio is standard for most markets on all SY and SZ cars, giving the Turbos the naturally-aspirated response unheard of in most Turbocharged motors. Most turbocharged motors at the time ran on reduced ratios of 7:1 or lower. Turbocharger: the Garrett TO4B was used right through to the implementation of the tiny twin-turbos by VW. Never a problem. Even the late Silver Spur LPT cars used the same turbocharger. Rear hubs: beefed-up and more serviceable, copied across the range in 1990. Torque converter: Mulsanne Turbos have the stronger 6-bolt converter. It replaced the 3-bolt converter of normally-aspirated cars, but the normally-aspirated cars stayed 3-bolt until much later in the SZ series. Distributor. A bog-standard 8-point unit is fitted (with its Rover SD1 distributor cap), with vacuum advance and breakerless of course, the same as on a Silver Spirit but tweaked and ECU's to suit the motor. As with any distributor, it is mapped to suit its specific application. The unique ECU may be hard to find given that only hundreds were made, but that can be solved without drama. A decent electronics shop can refurbish them. Quote: “None of these cars were made for any other market other than the UK.” They sold very well, LHD in Germany and Switzerland thank you, and a number were sold in France and Italy too. By the time the 20,000-series arrived, the (now-injected) turbo cars had assumed a more differentiated identity but appreciated all the extensive 20,000 upgrades. Improvements were made simultaneously across the SZ range. Many key ones are those introduced already on the first Mulsanne Turbos, but the improved suspension, climate control, levelling, cruise control, transmission and and and were all hugely worthwhile.. I drove a Mulsanne Turbo, a 1983 German (LHD) car, from Basel to Munich and back in 1998 on evaluation. It was marvellous, but I went for the 20,000-series for its overall upgrades and 2.28:1 final drive. The tacky R-R badge stuck on the glovebox sealed its rejection. RT. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1564 Registered: 4-2003 |
Yip, the Intercooler from Chassis 23211 is mainly to help not lose power with the cat. It is only a simple air-to-air intercooler and placed in the main air flow beneath and to the RH side of the car, and the net effect on the underbonnet air temperature is neutral. Air-to-air intercoolers help a little but not much, and only under those limited periods of hefty turbo boost as with any intercooler. | ||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Frequent User Username: lluís Post Number: 62 Registered: 8-2007 |
Hi Richard, I agree with the myths issue that you point out and it was not my intention to raise myths on a subject that I (as I stated above) ignore, sorry if I made that impression. Personally I would also love to have a carburettor turbo Bentley, the under bonet looks simply marvellous. As for my comments above, I was just pointing out to the fact that recurrent issues in some older cars (Jaguar SLS, cooling, etc...) can be corrected with modern non OEM parts and good will. Which apparently does not apply to Mulsanes, answering one of the questions that Davide raised. Out of curiosity, if what is said above (that it is normal to run a Mulsanne at 95 to 100°C) is correct, and so far nobody refuted it, would not a higher flow of air help (more powerful auxiliary cooling fans)? For example. Concerning the myths, Magazines also help to build them: while I was looking for a Turbo-R, "Octane Magazine" published a buying guide on turbo Bentleys which did not really do the Mulsane any good, it stated the following "if when cornering the door handles touch the road, then you are driving a Mulsane"... I found it unfair, it was actually the Mulsane that finally set apart Bentleys from Royces in terms of performance but again, maybe the extra turbo ooomph might have upset the other bits of the mostly standard non-turbo-rest-of-the-car. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1565 Registered: 4-2003 |
Luis, Yes, the lean on cornering a Mulsanne Turbo is alarming. Try a snap lane change at 200 on the Autobahn as I have. Erk, but you survive. Hence the rushed first Turbo R. There is a risk of digressing even further here. A hundred bucks fixes the lean on the limp Mulsanne Turbo. Fit a 1989 27,000-series antiroll bar and relax. (Pure opinion: Forget those atrocious early Turbo R alloy wheels before you vomit though. How Crewe sold those wheels right through until the mid 1990s with only a thin disguise is a wonder of outer space.). The door-handles-on-the-road Mulsanne Turbo prompted the first Turbo Rs (Carburettor Turbo R until the 1987MY) to be produced in parallel with the Mulsanne Turbo. The Mulsanne Turbo died just months later because of the Turbo R’s front antiroll bar alone. No more grazed door handles. The first Turbo Rs are a hash, but do the job crudely. However, it proved that the suspension design is incredibly competent and hugely underdemanded. Check the front wishbone design for a start. Although dating back to 1965 and tweaked in 1977, it is really brilliant stuff. Then the space-frame rear end: marvellous. The early SZ marshmallow bits around it spoiled it. Then came the 1987MY Turbo R: it put it all together in a really neat package. Old gear now, but it really is brilliant stuff by any standard. Blow me down if the Rolls-Royce Flying Spur wasn't introduced in 1995, a desperate attempt to revive the flagging R-R brand as Bentley was already knocking it out anywhere past the Las Vegas strip. It's a smoothy stripped Turbo R with soft springs and the Bentley radiator run flat into a brick wall: a latter-day Mulsanne Turbo, door-handles-on-the-road and all. It was gracefully dropped before even its promised short run failed to sell for good reason. | ||
| Paul Yorke Prolific User Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 271 Registered: 6-2006 |
As I've already stated, the Mulsanne Turbo is a great and exciting car. Luis, No the carb isn't under pressure all the time, just when the engine revs reach about 2500? RPM. No Lag??? Oh yes, plenty - and it's great. These cars are a real roller coaster - adrenaline junkies dream. From standing, you put your foot down and the car accelerates just like a normal Spirit. Then suddenly, and without warning . . . It just explodes into life, kicks you in the arse and takes off like a rocket. Any moisture on the road and it will break grip and wheelspin right into 3rd gear! Leaving clouds of rubber smoke and, unfortunately, too much expensive rubber on the road. Cruising along sedately , go to overtake and whoosh . . . you are past it before you know what's happened. Startling, is probably the best description. Richard says : "Underbonnet heat. No change. A turbocharger, idling for 99% of the time anyhow, has no effect, " Unfortunately that is utter crap. You only have to have a feel around the engine compartment of a well used Mulsanne Turbo and compare that to an equivalent mileage Spirit. The wires and looms will be crispy. The rubber hoses will be hard. The Right hand camber bushes will need changing at least twice as often. The Turbo ( which, although it's good, DOES gets bloody hot and increases the amount of time the hot exhaust gases spends under the bonnet), plus the re-routing of the exhaust and lack of heat shields/ducts see to that The problem here, I think, is Richard is talking about the virtues of a brand new car - We're discussing the disadvantages of one twenty five year old model over another model. Yes, it may have been fairly easy to remedy the problems R-R had with the rushed out Mulsanne Turbo, but even R-R just said whoops and moved swiftly on to the obvious solution. FI. As for the Flying Spur. Ahhhhh IMHO one of their successes. Comfortable and unassuming, but shifts like s**t off a shovel. The look on the faces of the drivers in their high end sports cars as that "brick walled" grille fills their rear view mirror and refuses to be left behind is priceless. I wonder why they still attract such a premium price over a Spirit or B Turbo if they were such a failure? | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1566 Registered: 4-2003 |
Crap is a dirty word. | ||
| Paul Yorke Prolific User Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 272 Registered: 6-2006 |
"Crap is a dirty word." My sincere apologies to everybody that I have offended. I guess that's what come of spending too much time in the workshop resurrecting these old girls! Please Mr Moderator, can you change that to .... Hmmmmm . . . .I'm stuck for a correct alternative now. "erroneous" Thank you. (Message edited by paul_yorke on 08 January 2009) | ||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Frequent User Username: lluís Post Number: 63 Registered: 8-2007 |
Gents, excuse my ignorance, but how does exactly the recirculative turbo work? I'm very curious. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1567 Registered: 4-2003 |
Best ask Mr Yorke. He knows everything. | ||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Frequent User Username: lluís Post Number: 64 Registered: 8-2007 |
Richard, The question is open, but I must say that I always got clear answers from you (my seats are working, my tires are ordered and the full service after winter will see a new wat€rpump ). Since you said it was a very nice system that eliminated turbo lag (which is by the way what I also read on the period reviews that I found), I became very curious: I see 2 pipes going to the pressure box in the picture and I thought this might have something to do with it, but I still cannot work out how to keep the (big) turbo spinning at low revs to eliminate turbo lag, unless the "lungs" of the car are pressurised all the time. Concerning turbo lag in general, in my much later Continental-R (1994), will definitely wheel spin up to 80 Km/h when boost comes at 2500-3000 rpm on anything but dead dry road (not that I'm proud of it, but I have fun with it) and some lag is definitely present (nothing compared to my brother´s Delta Integrale which also uses a Garret T04B on a 2 l. engine, but still, there is certainly lag). I guess you also get it with the virtually identical Turbo R of the period. | ||
| Paul Yorke Prolific User Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 273 Registered: 6-2006 |
Whoops, who's is this dummy? Richard, you flatter me. I only wish that were true. Unfortunately, all I know is working on these cars. 9 out of 10 days that's great, but I do of course have the odd nightmare day. But then - don't we all. I count myself very fortunate that I can work on such lovely vehicles! I don't pretend to know everything and certainly are not and probably never will be as well read as you. I only comment on what I have found through workshop experience, not what somebody else has written. Even a quickest look at the photo of the Turbo engine in all it's splendour, clearly reveals the turbo unit in the bottom right corner. How that could possibly NOT introduce considerable extra heat into the engine bay is an impossibility. Facts or Myths, just because something is written down, doesn't always make it right. Without the information or opinions, people can't make an informed decision. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1568 Registered: 4-2003 |
OK, OK, See the Technical Library for an old document which may be of interest and explains the air recirculation system. http://rrtechnical.info/sz/turbobasics.pdf | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 800 Registered: 9-2004 |
Have we a moderator that could kindly tidy up the postings. I am sure that this great forum does not need outbursts of a spoilt nature. | ||
| James Feller Experienced User Username: james_feller Post Number: 50 Registered: 5-2008 |
This is precisly what this forum is for, debate, knowledge sharing, questions and a fair amout of conjecture.... BUT its also a tool for our members and guests to use and feel comfortable using without intimidation and personal pettyness. Richard, I note a few 'quotes' lifted from my posts in your responses as 'lacking'. While my knowledge maybe not be as voluminous as yours, it is sourced from published RR literature, my memory and my general enthusiasm and interest for our cars. Your haughty responses, to many members here including myself, are uncalled for. Nobody is denigrating the model we are disscussing here. What is being pointed out is infact the known weaknesses it posesses. The advice being given in good faith by those who know the car mechanically and with the respect to myself, having driven old Turbo's, know people who own them, and by associated literature I have read. end of rant... sorry... :o) Davide, all of the pontification going back and forward, the thrust of the thread is being lost.... Davide, some very interesting information and opinions have been discussed above and all of us I am sure love the RR & B marque with passion!! .....do you dare let us all know what you're intending to do... :o) Cheers J | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1070 Registered: 4-2003 |
Well I hope all those exchanges are cathartic. This happens from time to time and it is well to do a bit of mutual slapping around to bring things back to normalcy. We have lost one professional contributor who has worked on more cars than I have had breakfasts and the offending exchange came from another alleged 'professional. There is a dear lady in the Club who despairs of these spats to the extent that she and I are arranging for tee shirts to be printed in discreet lettering 'It's only a f+++ing car club!' That is, without the plus signs! We think it says it all. We, all of us are here to enjoy ourselves and our cars, not point score or denigrate. When James announces that he is determined on running the diff of his car on liquid Swiss chocolate, we can make all sort of suggestions using phrases such as I would not recommend, perhaps if you tried, or at least, you realise that the chocolate will be inedible at the next oil change. It is afterall his car! | ||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Frequent User Username: lluís Post Number: 65 Registered: 8-2007 |
It is a indeed a very smart system, turbo constantly spinning without load to reduce the acceleration times of the turbine when boost is needed. Thanks for the info. This list is brilliant and helpful. | ||
| Paul Yorke Prolific User Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 274 Registered: 6-2006 |
Bill, as I understand it, and I hasten to add that I have not tried it personally, If you get long strip magnets you can araldite them to the inside of the diff to collect all metal debris. Of course you need to wash the diff scrupulously clean before changing lubricants. Always use a good quality brand (Lindt, do a classic range) I've heard that it is also possible to fit a tap in place of the drain plug to allow easy access at picnics and the like. Keep a selection of fruit and marshmallows ready for the occasion. Wishing you a very happy and peaceful 2009 | ||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Frequent User Username: lluís Post Number: 66 Registered: 8-2007 |
Me lost, isn´t that for the diff threat right next to this one? | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 859 Registered: 4-2003 |
Gentlemen [and others], I have been unable to moderate this week due to an unexpected problem requiring my attention and I now return to find there has been a deterioration in the usual high standard of contribution. As BBC has intimated, I hope this has been cathartic and normal standards will be resumed forthwith. It should not be necessary to remind everyone that robust discussion of alternative points of view often provides helpful information to others. However, it is important to be mindful that "discussion" does not extend to denigration and/or abuse of other contributors with alternative points of view. If this is this case, you should "agree to disagree" and move on rather than trying to have the last word. We all have our off-days and can say things which may cause others to have less respect for our contributions in future. As one of my mentors often said, "make sure your brain is engaged before opening your mouth [or activating your typing fingers]". | ||
| Paul Yorke Prolific User Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 275 Registered: 6-2006 |
Oh Oh, Multi-tasking? Thinking and typing . . . . I may be quiet for a while, got to go off and try it! | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1072 Registered: 4-2003 |
Thank you Paul. We old farts count ourselves lucky to get to the end of each one. I have just had a 50 year anniversary with my college people and the toll is becomming interesting! Anyway. Lets talk diffs. How did they get away with noisy diffs for so many cars for so long. I have just put a 3000 series SZ in pristine condition that I am trying to get a didgeredo tuned to harmonise with the diff row!! Even the celebrated PVI I have from time to time has a faint whine! I have had 5 fords three HOldens a basket of Minis a LOndon cab a Rover Armstrong Siddeleys Fiats Ramblers _ I think that's the lot and none had noisy diffs!! Over to you or maybe its an antipodean problem.. No no I just remember when the Factory got me over in 1980 I was given the MD's Camargue with 4000 miles on it to get to Crewe. That whined! | ||
| Paul Yorke Prolific User Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 276 Registered: 6-2006 |
Ahhhh Bill. Stick a mini or a Holden engine in your R-R and the whine will be cured. The Clouds had an especially loud clock fitted so people can say, "So quiet, you can only hear the clock ticking" The most embarrassing diff whine I had was on a 4 year old spur, just out of warranty. We all said it was it was fine but the customer still wasn't happy. His chauffeur took it to R-R for a second opinion. "Diff" they said, "not under warranty". But they would give 20% off the £3500 price. We fitted it, chauffeur collected it, said it was exactly the same. We took it out for a run with the chauffeur who pointed out the noise the boss was complaining about. 5 minutes later we had adjusted the door frame. noise gone. "Don't tell the boss" was all the chauffeur said. I'm not sure what the story is really. When you do get a really noisy one (still quiet by most standards) you realise that they are not so bad. Also, I think once you get attuned to that note, you listen out for it and focus on it. As you mentioned early, diff oil is definitely not changed often enough. | ||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Frequent User Username: lluís Post Number: 67 Registered: 8-2007 |
Well Bill, in my Mini(s), a Cooper and a 850, I definitely do not hear the diff, you are right, but then nor the radio, nor my wife not anything else bear the engine noise and dashboard rattles  | ||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Frequent User Username: lluís Post Number: 68 Registered: 8-2007 |
May I still post another picture of a turbo just upstream of what is (basically) a standard engine: Not a Bentley, but a Mini: just bolt a turbo in front of the standard HIF-44 carburettor (differential guaranteed to whine and cry just to follow the threat).  } This thing puts 160 bhp from 1.3 liters on the wheels and weighs 695 Kg. It's from a German afficionado and is fully road legal. The production Mini ERA turbo was less spectacular in power, but almost identical in principle. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 860 Registered: 4-2003 |
This thread has now been closed. |
