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Lluís Gimeno-Fabra
Experienced User
Username: lluís

Post Number: 24
Registered: 8-2007
Posted on Thursday, 28 August, 2008 - 12:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dear List

Today I found out that the memory pack of the co-driver's seat on my Continental R is not working. The driver's seat memory is working fine. I also noticed that the co-driver's seat "full forward" function, the little switch which moves the front seats fully forward to ease access to the rear seats is dead which seems to me suspiciously connected as it also need a memory function to work properly.

I was surprised to hear the dealer say that memory packs are very unreliable and that they would not bother replacing them.

Is it really so? Is the fault usually in the memory pack? or is it simply that the position control system of the seat rails is faulty or disengaged?

Thanks for any help.

Lluís
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Lluís Gimeno-Fabra
Experienced User
Username: lluís

Post Number: 25
Registered: 8-2007
Posted on Thursday, 28 August, 2008 - 12:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

By the way, I just saw that somebody had a similar problem with a 1988 RR and he posted it here.

I will try the solution which was posted by Richard Tracey to that post next week and see if it works.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1433
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 28 August, 2008 - 09:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Have you followed the threads on replacing the memory battery ?

http://rroc.infopop.cc/eve/forums?a=search&reqWords=Memory+Seats

http://rroc.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1900038462/m/9890031634?r=7830045634#7830045634

A new battery costs five bucks and does wonders.


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Lluís Gimeno-Fabra
Experienced User
Username: lluís

Post Number: 26
Registered: 8-2007
Posted on Friday, 29 August, 2008 - 12:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks, but the info does not seem to be accessible. Could you please just give me an indication on where said battery is, I do not recall having seen it in the owners manual.
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Lluís Gimeno-Fabra
Experienced User
Username: lluís

Post Number: 27
Registered: 8-2007
Posted on Friday, 29 August, 2008 - 12:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dear Richard, thanks again, I think I found the original post, is this what you mean?

It's simple and brilliant, I'll try it in a couple of weeks.

From older post:

"Any 12V Lithium-Manganese Oxide cell combination will do. I used a pair of 2CR1 6V camera batteries (Duracell 28L to IEC 2CR11108 specification). The battery holder (yellow in the diagram) came from an electrical hobby shop. The diodes are 1N4007, EM513 etc. Solder one to two bits of wire with a spade connector at each end, female to the cathode and male to the anode. Now solder another diode's to the first diode's cathode as shown." and so on...
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1435
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, 29 August, 2008 - 01:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Under thw seats in the memory modules. It seems that my own posts are not my own anymore.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That is correct Gerry.

Cars before 1987 Model Year at chassis 20,000 have a setup whereby the seats are operated directly from the switches, and those are power switches. There is no ECU and there are no batteries to worry about.

On later cars, the switches are signal switches only. They feed the microprocessor board, which controls memory and movement. The ECU needs the batteries to retain the memory positions when the battery is isolated, much in the same way that your car radio needs the battery permanently connected to retain the stations in its memory in most cases.

RT.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
This Varta battery can be purchased from many electronics stores. Here are a couple I know of.

COMP-18-3NMH 3.6V battery (3/V100R)

Available here:

http://shop.willyselectronics.com/browse.cfm/2,35.html

I got mine from here:

http://www.sabahoceanic.com/epages/sabahoceanic.sf/en_US/?ObjectPath=/Shops/sabahoceanic/Products/07075002

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
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Adrian uk
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 213.249.162.132
Posted on Monday, 08 September, 2008 - 08:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard.
I recently replaced the seat ECU batteries on my car with worries over them leaking and damaging the pcb. The seats however still worked fine with the exception that they moved in a 'jerky' manner.I was told this was either the battery or poor contacts on the seats (the sprockets revolving on turn at a time as they have no stored datum if the battery is flat?). Having refiited the ECU's the passenger seat worked for a little while then gave up, leaving it for a while restored it's movement. The drivers seat however never worked again. ECU taken out again and checked , no faults. By leaving the ignition in the accessory position all day for the battery to charge? it then worked. Switched off ignition and two hours later it didn't work again. Any ideas?

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1446
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 09 September, 2008 - 08:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hello there.

Let's assume that the replacement battey is correct and properly installed. Also, let's assume that all the fuses are in order and the connection plugs are safely home in their sockets.

Do you have the manuals ?

The new memory batteries should charge whenever the main battery is connected and the battery master switch in the boot is turned on.

However, the system usually requires initialising.

Should the battery leads be disconnected for 4 weeks or longer, or if the seat memory module has been repaired or replaced, then the seat position memory function will be lost.

If this has occurred, it will be necessary to reactivate the memory by tapping in the memory codes.

When the seat memory (combined with door mirror memory on later cars) is reactivated, the system will need to be initialised. Avoid contact with the seat when carrying out the procedure.

Ensure that the gear range selector lever is in Park, then turn the ignition switch to either the ACC or RUN position.

Briefly depress the MEM (memory) button five times on the driver's seat control panel then immediately depress the numbered buttons on the panel in the sequence 4-3-3-4. A selected seat position can then be stored in the memory in the normal manner.

I hope that this brings positive results.

RT.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1447
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 09 September, 2008 - 08:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Slight clarification: depending on the individual configuration, the battery master isolation switch in the boot may or may not isolate the seat memory modules from the battery. This depends on the particular vehicle's configuration.

Regardless, the seat memory batteries will charge whenever the battery is connected and the battery master isolation switch is turned on.

RT.
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Lluís Gimeno-Fabra
Experienced User
Username: lluís

Post Number: 28
Registered: 8-2007
Posted on Wednesday, 10 September, 2008 - 05:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dear Richard,

Thank you, the seat memory is working again, I used the initializing procedure, and it did work.

I try to use the car more or less regularly, about twice per week, it is indeed incredibly user-friendly, but I want to avoid very short trips. In three words: It is wonderful.

The only issue is that as I use it some of the niggles become apparent: the car has an extremely low mileage for its age (1994-25000 miles) and stood quite a while, the tires are therefore square, but this is getting better. I think that the big door speakers have dried-out diaphragms and they need to be replaced, there is a bad bass resonance. The oil temperature gauge is also at a minimum always, but the weather here is pretty cold, so I do not know if it is disconnected.

I plan to make a posting about the buying process (which I myself would have found an interesting lecture, in addition to the help of so many in the list) on the "miscellaneous section".

Best regards

Lluís
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1513
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, 10 November, 2008 - 04:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Concerning the seat and mirror position controls and memories, there is a document at:

http://rrtechnical.info/sz/sz87/seat_mirror_memory.pdf

which covers:

Converting the System to work Manually Without the ECU (a surprisingly simple modification in case your $1,000 ECU is kaputt)
Diagnostics
Initialising the System
Storing Positions in Memory
Layout
Component Locations
Wiring diagramme

RT.

ps: have you ever wondered what that empty relay socket under the seat is for ? Now you know.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1516
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 13 November, 2008 - 08:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The above link has been altered, expanded into a new web sub-page on:

http://rrtechnical.info/sz/sz87/memory_seats/seat_mirror_memory.htm

It now includes ECU battery pack replacement, which is advisable after the first 10 years to avoid some very expensive damage. Note that the modern replacement batteries specified in the section promise to last much longer safely.

RT.
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Lluís Gimeno-Fabra
Frequent User
Username: lluís

Post Number: 54
Registered: 8-2007
Posted on Thursday, 13 November, 2008 - 06:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Richard,

I took a look at it, it's a nice piece of information. Probably I will try to replace the batteries.

Is the earthing strap simply there to avoid static electricity discharges?

I hate using electrically insulating spray, it makes further repairs a nightmare on electronic boards. Should this be used for some esoteric reason or can I do without it?

Best regards

Lluís
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1517
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 13 November, 2008 - 10:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Lluís,

Yes, the earthing strap is to prevent static electricity mainly. In general, it's a bit of a disclaimer, but you can never be sure what type of soldering iron and bush techniques someone uses.

Irons may be 240V, or isolated, have floating power supplies, grounded chassis, be transformer-driven or whatever. The worst irons may introduce earth-loop currents and the like, so a certain amount of the action is up to the individual to know his tools. The semiconductors on these PCB cards are a mixed bag, with robust transistors and TTL alongside more efficient but far more sensitive CMOS. Needless to say, a few minutes' care may save hours on the telephone and huge repair costs as always.

As to the electrical insulation spray, it’s your own choice. However, I must stress that automotive applications are relatively demanding domestic environments. Inside the car, huge temperature and humidity swing are the norm. +70C parked in the sun down to +25C within 5 minutes is not uncommon in Summer with 100% humidity, and -10C to +23C dry in Winter another. Then there’s that can or soft drink which rolls out of sight, then jams in the seat mechanism and explodes.

Electrical insulation spray is a very strong recommendation. Normally, these lacquers are soluble in turpentine or white spirit, and act as resin when more soldering is required. Also, the aim here is never to need to do any more soldering on that printed circuit card again, so what the hell. You may do a quick functional test on the car before doing the lacquering if you so wish of course.

My background is of electrical and electronic design in heavy industry, power, mining, marine, commercial transportation and rail, and automotive applications. Given that designers commission prototypes and early production installations themselves, PCB component changes are common when finalising fine-tuning and f***ups on site. You could never leave that stuff unprotected even on test runs, and lacquered PCBs were always a trivial hurdle in the process.

As an example, our locomotives are sold to coustomers in Europe who regularly use them to travel from dry -10C open-air to tunnels, such as the Gotthard at +60C 100% humid with condensation forming everywhere within seconds. Locomotives nowadays have electronic and computer control systems which make an A340 designer boggle, and special attention to humidity and temperature swings is even more important than in commercial aircraft believe it or not. We spent enormous efforts on this for the Swiss, Finnish, Hong Kong, Norwegian and Eurotunnel trains in particular.

Normal spray lacquer is fine too, but usually cannot be reworked as easily as the proper electrical stuff.

I personally never do any electronics work in an automotive application without finishing it off properly with a good coating of lacquer.

Ultimately, make up your own mind on all this. Compared to some of the daft stuff that Crewe specifies when doing jobs (look at how they tell you to change suspension gas springs for a start), these procedures can only be termed benign.

Incidentally, lack of such treatment is the most common reason why the speed transducers for the speedometer, cruise control and engine ECUs on our beloved Crewe cars' transmissions fail. They don’t suffer the same temperature swings as cabin quiipment does, but the water and muck splashed around is sometimes demanding. I have repaired a few by cleaning the PCB tracks, and with a good layer of lacquer they are proving to be many times more reliable than with the skimpy treatment they were afforded originally.

I hope this helps.

Regards,

Richard.
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Lluís Gimeno-Fabra
Frequent User
Username: lluís

Post Number: 55
Registered: 8-2007
Posted on Friday, 14 November, 2008 - 12:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

It does help. Thanks.
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Larry Halpert
Prolific User
Username: larry_halpert

Post Number: 152
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Monday, 13 July, 2015 - 01:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Interesting. After my battery leaking on my passenger side, I cut it out, as I don't have a way to solder and am lousy at it anyway. It was causing all the relays to click and move the seat forward.

Now, after cleaning off the battery leakage, I have all the functions returned, except the back being able to tilt forward or back. (The relays click when the switch is pressed, but no movement).

I was going to follow the detailed advice about bypassing the ECU, and try to figure out what "join the plug and socket together from the stowage bin loom" as to which plug? which socket? there are two five pin sockets.

But it would be moot as I don't have any place to put a Bosch relay anywhere near the seat mechanism or as pictured in the diagram. Nowhere.

Guess there's no way to bypass the ECU on my '89 Spur #27598.
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Larry Halpert
Prolific User
Username: larry_halpert

Post Number: 153
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Monday, 13 July, 2015 - 01:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Pics. There's no relay socket:
Power Seat section
"Stowage" console plugs
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Lluís Gimeno-Fabra
Grand Master
Username: lluís

Post Number: 383
Registered: 8-2007
Posted on Monday, 13 July, 2015 - 06:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Silly question larry: have you tried the 4334 trick (or 3443)?

Lluís
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Larry Halpert
Prolific User
Username: larry_halpert

Post Number: 154
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Monday, 13 July, 2015 - 08:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Not a silly question.

Yes, I had already tried that.

- Larry
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michael vass
New User
Username: mikebentleyturbo2

Post Number: 3
Registered: 7-2015
Posted on Tuesday, 14 July, 2015 - 02:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

hi larry
I posted this earlier but not here now?
Clean all your relay contacts and make sure they are not stuck with gunge from the battery.
Mike
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Larry Halpert
Prolific User
Username: larry_halpert

Post Number: 155
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 14 July, 2015 - 05:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Michael,

The battery barely leaked, and everything looks clean, except the tiny spot right near it on nearest chip. The relays click when I use the switch to tilt the seatback forward or backwards.

- Larry
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michael vass
New User
Username: mikebentleyturbo2

Post Number: 5
Registered: 7-2015
Posted on Tuesday, 14 July, 2015 - 09:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Larry
Mine looked ok, 2 or 3 relays clicked ,battery was just a bit fusty looking but one of the relays was stuck ,not knowing the logic of the circuit I freed them all and now I have all the fuctions back.
I removed the batteries from my ecu's.
Best wishes
mike
p.s. mines '89 turbo r so probably same condition
pps wd40 is my friend
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Larry Halpert
Prolific User
Username: larry_halpert

Post Number: 156
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 28 July, 2015 - 03:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Well, it turns out that the chip that the battery leaked on was damaged. Same with some traces on the board. I also realized I couldn't get the seat to lower down. No relays were stuck, though.

So, the unit needed to be rebuilt or replaced. The choices seemed to be well over $400 to over $500, with memory aspect completely removed. Mine is an '89 Spur, and the brown Avant Electronics module originally passed its tests on April 24, 1989.

I did finally find one place that systematically restored these, and the cost was $299, no matter how badly ruined it is. That includes new sealed battery separate from the board so it won't ever leak onto it, full memory function restored (mine had CPU problems, it turns out), any needed parts replaced, free shipping back to me, and a 5 year guarantee.

Even though it was a lot of money for me, personally, to spend - it was the best deal out there as I am lousy at even the simplest soldering jobs, especially without being told I have to lose features, such as the memory.

ModuleMaster was great to deal with. They also fully restore the 20,000 series A/C fan speed module. But, for the seat module their ebay offer is the best way to access that service:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/271077988502 888-892-0764.

It is now re-installed, and all is well. I did remove my driver's side seat module, as I figured that is due for a problem, and it seems I just caught it before the battery leaked.

So, I got the battery ($11 shipped to my door), and found a local electronics repair person who soldered it in for me while I stood there - for $15 cash. All functions work, including memory.

I believe I do need my A/C fan speed module done in terms of the resister packs (though Richard Treacy has redone these using diodes instead, if I only knew the correct changeover procedure - maybe I could bring that to my new local electronics repair guy).

My A/C works only on the low setting, and correctly switches to heat in the winter. I have to first make sure its the module, not the microprocessor - though I imagine it is easy enough to remove the module and have it tested for continuity.

- Larry
PS: Mike Vass - I also added your new info on the Turbo distributor caps onto my site. Thanks again!
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1561
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 29 July, 2015 - 12:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Larry,

You're not the only person who's had good things to say about ModuleMaster:

Snip from resources file

Right now it's between them and Proper Parts as far as US sources for seat electronics repair. It's a real shame that ModuleMaster got out of the cruise ECU repair business. The only US source I know of now for that is:

snip two from resources file

Brian
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Larry Halpert
Prolific User
Username: larry_halpert

Post Number: 158
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 29 July, 2015 - 09:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Interesting. When I spoke to ModuleMaster, I was talking to the seat module technician who was interested in adding the VDO cruise control module to their list.

I told them about my entry for GDL, who wasn't aware of the RR VDO unit when I convinced them to rebuild mine about 10+ years ago. The ModuleMaster tech thought he could do as well or better than GDL's $295 price.

We'll see what happens.

For the seat module, Proper Parts provides a new circuit board that completely removes the memory feature for about $535. For my own personal needs, I wanted the memory feature, 5 year warranty, and almost half price cost.

Also, I know that the Land Rover used the exact same unit after 1990 as the light grey box used on RR cars also after 1990. The only difference is the wires & plugs which you can transfer. (They just plug into the circuit board).

What I'd like to find out is what OTHER cars used the dark brown unit used on the 20,000 series pre-1990 cars like mine. Land Rover used a different one in those years.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1570
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 29 July, 2015 - 01:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Larry,

Your input is interesting and their website has changed since the last time I visited. I know that I wrote to them at one point asking about why cruise control ECUs had disappeared from their rebuild list and was told they'd dropped that business. However, based upon what's on the website as of today it appears they're back in.

I guess I need to update the resources list to remove that proviso regarding cruise control ECUs.

Brian
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michael vass
Grand Master
Username: mikebentleyturbo2

Post Number: 453
Registered: 7-2015
Posted on Thursday, 12 April, 2018 - 05:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Larry
Did you ever get it working without the ecu? has anybody else?
As you say no relay socket.
Cheers
Mike
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 2043
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, 12 April, 2018 - 07:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

If you want to do without the ECU and you don't have the early relay socket wiring then you can convert it physically.

You need to change all the micro switches on the control panel to 3 terminal switches.

Each switch has common to the motor . NC to ground NO to ignition feed.

It's a lot of fiddly work and lots of time involved.

If you have no seat ecu to be reconditioned and have plenty of spare time it may be worth it.

Ł235 +vat in stock here.
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michael vass
Grand Master
Username: mikebentleyturbo2

Post Number: 454
Registered: 7-2015
Posted on Thursday, 12 April, 2018 - 07:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Paul
Thanks for the info,
Funny one this though '92 brooklands with the relay sockect ,I thought it was discontinued on the 50000 series oh well.
Cheers
Mike
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michael vass
Grand Master
Username: mikebentleyturbo2

Post Number: 455
Registered: 7-2015
Posted on Friday, 13 April, 2018 - 02:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Paul
Turned out this car had lumbar support hence the relay.
Have told him you have an ECU for him .
Cheers
Mike
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 2044
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, 13 April, 2018 - 02:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Mike,

Some of the last of the Spirit 1s did have the 3 pin
Switches - But no relay socket.

Tricky but not as hard as changing all the switches.

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