| Author | Message | ||
     Lawrence Heasman New User Username: lheasman Post Number: 10 Registered: 5-2008 |
Is the Air Con fitted in Spirits and Spurs standard regardless if the car was earmarked for Australian Delivery or not.If so does it cope with our 40c days or should it be upgraded? | ||
| James Feller New User Username: james_feller Post Number: 6 Registered: 5-2008 |
Hi Lawrence, again its me.... well not being technically minded I will say the climate control systems in our cars if all working right are very effective. Always wise to have it checked for correct operation by a professional but in my expirence it should freeze your arse off if required or cook you if required and then various combinations in between.... No, I don't believe it needs to be 'upgraded'. Our cars were manufactured to operate in say the UK..ie freezing and the UAE ie roasting... just make sure for the summer months your thermo fans and the general cooling systems are all working correctly. One thing our cars really won't tollerate is overheating.... also at 30K for an engine rebuild on a cooked motor your wallet will shudder i'm sure.... I have seen the evidence of this very thing in a 90' model Spirit where the owner ignored the gauge, warning light and even the buzzer and simply drove the car till it stopped....needless to say a very expensive mistake. Not really one the car made either... apparently he checked the coolant before undertaking a trip, yes on a very hot day and forgot to tighten the expansion bottle lid. He then drove the car back from the Hunter Valley to Sydney. The car was trying to pressurise the coolant in the system to maintain engine temp but as the cap was not tight the car simply pumped the water out of the system completely.... ie cooked the motor dead. When you can move the exhaust extractor bolt pins with your index finger this is NOT a good sign yes they should cope fine, most of the A/C systems were either robust American or in later cars Japanese technology so our forbares at Crewe recognised that these 2 nations do know how to air condition very effectively.... James | ||
| Lawrence Heasman Experienced User Username: lheasman Post Number: 32 Registered: 5-2008 |
I am getting rather a large amount of cold water dripping out from under the middle of my '88 Spur. Its only really got worse since the weather here in Vic has got warmer. Is this cold water simply condensation running off the air con or something more sinister? I've also noticed that it drips enough to leave a small puddle whilst stopped at traffic lights. Does the aircon have a reservoir or is it just gas? Any ideas on what the problem may or may not be will be greatly appreciated. | ||
| Paul Yorke Prolific User Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 237 Registered: 6-2006 |
Lawrence - As long as it is just clear cold water there's nothing to worry about  It's just condensation as you suspected. | ||
| Lawrence Heasman Experienced User Username: lheasman Post Number: 34 Registered: 5-2008 |
Thanks Paul that's a relief!! Maybe the aircon could do with another re-gas as it certainly does not freeze my arse off!! Thanks again Lawrence | ||
| Omar Shams Unregistered guest Posted From: 86.96.228.89 |
a good test to see if you need a regas is to look at the sightglass on the reciever drier. if you see lots of white bubbles when the a/c is on and the compressor running, then you are low on gas. if there are a small number of little bubbles very occasionally, you have the right amount of gas in it. If your gas has leaked, fix the leak first before you gas up. make sure you pressurise the system with nitrogen and then when the system has demonstarted no leaks, then remove the nitrogen, replace the reciever drier, vacuum the system and then fill up with gas. good luck. Omar form Dubai (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| StevenBrown Experienced User Username: stevenbrown Post Number: 13 Registered: 10-2008 |
I live 3hrs east of Seattle, its desert, like Palm Springs and over 100F in the summer. The A/C in my Spur worked excellent, one of the few things GM does well! We are lucky in the U.S as you can buy 134a refill kits and don't need a specialist. http://www.amazon.com/EF-Products-R-134a-Retrofit-Recharge/dp/B0002JMDL8 | ||
| James Feller Experienced User Username: james_feller Post Number: 41 Registered: 5-2008 |
Hi Lawrence, Absolutuely normal for you to get a puddle under the car when operating the AC. In fact in very humid weather with the car parked in a warm spot the puddle can be quite a bit....I have even had water pool out under the door. Even in winter this can form once the car is left standing for a time. It is just water condensation from the evaporator matrix in the dash draining out the tubes to the road. All cars with AC systems do this and it is quite normal. The air as I said before Lawrence should be capable of getting the car very comfortable in most situations. Now if left standing for a time in hot weather it will take some time for the system to bring the car temp down helped of course by the car reaching reasonable Rpm/ cruising speed quickly. Check for constant bubbles in sight glass. A few as the system pressurises is normal but they should go once operating for a few minutes. If not a good AC Specialist should be able to sort you out. Cheers J | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1504 Registered: 4-2003 |
Just a quick note on cold air blasts: don't expect one. That is a malfunction status for these systems. It is climate control, not a simple air conditioner. The system has plenty of spare compressor and heating capacity, and not by any small margin at that. If you want a cold-blast treatment you will need to have the system modified by an autoelectrician to inhibit the climate control and reconfigure it as a crude air conditioner. The system, being a climate control, is carefully designed and built at great cost to avoid cold-blast and hot-blast airflows. It's a matter of taste, but many people prefer that the cabin be uniformly pampered with fresh, clean dry air at a predetermined temperature. That is exactly what these advanced systems provide. Even in cold weather, the outside air is first chilled to dry it out, then reheated to a controlled temperature. As to the puddle under the car, it forms after stopping when the ice accumulated in the evaporator thaws. When in use, ice accumulates at the base on the evaporator matrix in a large block. It only melts when the compressor shuts down for a time, and is a sign of the system being in top shape. Mine dumps a litre or more in moist conditions after ten minutes or so regardless of the ambient outside temperature as long as it's above 1 degree. I have had several notes stuffed under the wipers at car parks by concerned kindly people warning of a coolant haemorrhage. One winter it was snowing (ie below +5 degrees outside) when I did the road transport test. The guy failed me, saying that there was no way the compressor would need to be working in a 5 degree ambient when I tried to explain the water puddle in his cherished test pit. These blokes are decidedly uncool at any fluid soiling their persian-carpeted floors. I turned the system off, drove around the block and had the retest in the same lane. He finally accepted reluctantly that it was not a coolant leak, although he suspected that I had just made a dodgy fix of a coolant leak in a flash, but being a government test station, they still charged me the AUD$90 retest fee, the blighters. So, if the charge is adequate, no amount of regassing or fitting an even more oversized compressor will persuade the microprocessor to give you a chilly blast. RT. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1505 Registered: 4-2003 |
Quote from Steven Brown: _______________________________________ The A/C in my Spur worked excellent, one of the few things GM does well! _______________________________________ Sorry, to break the news, Steven, but your Silver Spur has a Japanese Sanden compressor. The control systems, ducting and the like are, as always, all Crewe. The GM-Delco-Harrison compressors are excellent too, but they bowed out in 1986 at chassis 16,930. | ||
| John Shostrom Frequent User Username: silvawraith2 Post Number: 79 Registered: 4-2005 |
Richard correctly states the function of the split-level climate control system in our cars. He is quite right in pointing out that the system was not designed to provide cold blasts of air -- it is not about the cold air emanating from the facia vents. Rather, it is about the overall cabin climate, just as one would set the thermostat for the climate control in theri home to a pre-determined temperature. In order to properly activate the system, the handbook advises setting the upper thumbwheel control showing 1/2 blue, 1/4 white and 1/4 red and the lower control to show 1/2 red. 1/4 white and 1/4 blue. Give the system a minute or so to equalise and then proceed to adjust upper and lower thumbwheels to desired temperatures for upper and lower temperature levels in the cabin. The climate control system will keep those settings regardless of outside cliamtic conditions, and it is for this reason that an outside temperature guage is fitted. I have owned five Crewe cars with this system, and have travelled in all sorts of climates from blizzards in the US to sub-tropical heat in Hong Kong, and they have performed flawlessly. The real issue, one wonders, is in understanding the sublime sophistication of the system. Cheers.} | ||
| StevenBrown Experienced User Username: stevenbrown Post Number: 16 Registered: 10-2008 |
I assumed the GM-Delco-Harrison was still in use. The only thing I like about American "luxury" vehicles; Cadillacs, Lincolns, Mercury Gran Marq's, etcetera is their A/C. The control is excellent and I find I'm closing the facia vent near my right hand. I wonder if the Japanese Saden compressor is like the Datsun 240Z (Fairlady Z in England) I had in high school, with SU like carbs.......... | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1028 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hmm I take on board all the advice of you pundits but wonder whether Crewe really ascertained what their customers wanted. I have ridden driven and/or fixed these cars with climate control for years and I have never found one that the owner didn't dive into the car on a cold day and spin the dials to hottest perhaps later easing them back to give a more acceptable temperature. Richard mentions hot and cold blasts as not being a feature of the system of which I confess I was not aware. In fact on a very cold morning with the ice light glaring at me I overcome the tendency for my hands to freeze to the steering wheel by turning the master control to defrost which as we all kinow throws full heat into the system, switching the venting to 'facia' and opening the Texas duct. I then get a blast of hot air which warms me and the car up very quickly. Turning back to 'Auto' resets the system when I have thawed out my bones. John's description of 'sublime' climate is idyllic but for it seems most owners, not what they want! We have a Lexus which when the thermometer swings to either end of the scale, produces hot or cold air in abundance until the cabin is just right and then settles down to a quiet blow of temperate air. That system, now 8 years old has never given the slightest indication of trouble, we leave the temperature control at 22.5 degrees which is never changed except when someone borrows the car and gets the volume control knob for the radio, confused with the temperature control knob. Cold days the system bides its time until there are enough calories coming out of the engine to warm us up and it then sets up a veritable typhoon warming the cab up. Sometimes if my liver is not quite at peace with the world, I have turned the fan speed down at this point but otherwise I leave the system to its own devices. And yes with a very hot Spur ( I have recorded 'sitting in the sun' temperatures of 56 degrees) I of course open all the windows and drive. The subtle correction of the in-car ambience simply doesn't cope otherwise! And I repeat, every one of these cars I have seen in Summer has glaring blue wheels on the aircon board so it's not just me! | ||
| Bill Payne Experienced User Username: wimpy Post Number: 12 Registered: 1-2007 |
GM's mid-90s RWD cars had a change in AC controls. True climate control as discussed here, but the engineers decided all heated air was to come out the floor vent, since heat rises. AC however always came out the dash vents. Nothing like getting into a cold car on a 0 F day without gloves and try to drive while your hands were sticking to the wheel. Have an 05 Lincoln TownCar which must have a preheater cause I can defrost the windscreen within a couple of moments of cranking the car.} | ||
| StevenBrown Experienced User Username: stevenbrown Post Number: 18 Registered: 10-2008 |
I'm going to disagree with Mr. Coburn. In I have hot summer weather, desert climate. The only time need to open a window is when I sneak my filthy but good habit in the car. On 100+ Fahrenheit days the wheels are full blue. cools the car well and facia vent nearest the steering wheel gets closed or moved towards passenger area. Granted its not the best, but comparable to my 500SL Mercedes. | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1029 Registered: 4-2003 |
I think Steven you are agreeing with me. The point I was making was that if you are to survive the heat (or cold) the initial action is to spin the wheels whereas with the Lexus you touch nothing it all happens automatically. And while I have your ear, is it true that in the new Cloud and early Shadow days the ladies would park their car, set the aircon to max cold and leave the engine running while they did their shopping thus returning to a cool car? These stories grow you know. I remember being assured by one old hand that you could almost freeze a bottle of beer on the ledge behind the rear seat in a double unit Cloud? Perhaps I shouldn't ask about these bits of folklore as they keep the interest up for a lot of people. Now what about the lady in Spain with the broken axle? | ||
| StevenBrown Experienced User Username: stevenbrown Post Number: 19 Registered: 10-2008 |
Miss read and understood Mr. Coburn in his original post. Lexus should get more credit for their vehicles. Japanese apart from being well made are usually reversed engineered and vastly improved over their main competitors. Namely BMW and Mercedes. I can and have seen people mostly Women leave cars running and go off shopping. Pet peeve in Toronto during winter, people leaving their cars running albeit in winter while fueling. I'm only 36 and regret in my younger days, did not really appreciate Rolls Royce. Enjoyed them more when in the car business mostly sales side. But at that time all things with wheels become about making money. When we had a RR/B, most had been well sorted by their owners. For those reading and thinking of buying a RR/B, this is why a service history is a must! I can see Women leaving early Shadows running. And see this could cause engines, etcetera to burn up. In particular the early Shadows were built when RR was having financial troubles. Mixed with being a new model, etcetera-- American TV show host Jay Leno, tells a story from his days working delivering RR/B's for a dealer. He dropped off a new early Corniche and the next morning the customer was talking to dealership about his Corniche burning up in his driveway. Owner of the dealership said: "you or someone must have dropped a lit cigarette in the car!" According to Mr. Leno the customer was a non-smoker and the electrics in these cars are not very good! So some folklore might be a certain company making excuses for not turning out expected perfection. Hence why service records are very important, over the years, good people figure out and correct, dare I say faults. | ||
| Brian Crump Experienced User Username: brian_crump Post Number: 26 Registered: 2-2007 |
HA!!! I don't know what all this air-conditioning fuss is about. Let me assure you that when it is 30 degrees Celcius outside, the inside of my PII is at least capable of making tea without any further assistance.Just fill the teapot with good spring water and add some Irish Breakfast and wait five minutes.... I had a chat yeaterday to a young gentleman who was repairing the air-con on a Cloud III and he assured me he would be quite capable of installing a neat air-con unit in the PII along with an electrically driven compressor. Now there's a thought!! Sorry, I digress. I have no complaints about the air-con in my Spirit II even on a hot day. However, last summer I did have one small issue which was solved by replacing the heater tap which would not turn off completely and then by locating the temperature sensor which was giving false readings and wanting to warm the car when I wanted to cool it. All in all it was a simple fix and the system copes admirably with Sydney humidity and heat. Regards, Brian Crump. | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1030 Registered: 4-2003 |
Steven/ Thankyou. Leaving cars running in Australia I believe is practically unknown and leaving them running while fueling is almost a hanging offence and never done. We had a Shadow many years ago that emulated a Roman candle in Sydney which they never conclusively worked out the cause. The opinion was that the old fellow who owned it, tottered out having left it in his garage, closed the door and went to bed. But he forgot to turn the engine off! The theory was that the fire started at the rear where the accumulated heat in the rear axle 'well' melted or burnt the flexible suspension supply hoses which then sprayed the very how exhaust pipe with good ol' RR363 and then 'Houston, we have ignition'. The cause of the limo fire in HK has always intrigued me. Apparently the car was owned by a very prominent citizen and he did not take kindly to the publicity nor of course to the loss of his car. Shadows and Clouds have that quaint main jet diaphragm in their carburetters that will eventually harden and crack filling the valley area of the engine with a cocktail of normal engine gunge and fresh petrol. I have had this happen twice to me in an S2 and a Cloud III and discovered them only by chance when checking the oil. My immediate problem was trying to decide whether I should change the diaphragms before I changed my underpants. It really is quite frightening. I'll shut up! PS It is generally forgotten that Toyota made a strong bid for the Company in 1971 but the establishment swooned at the thought. Had they been successful the end result would have truly produced, in my opinion, the very Best Car in the World judging by the Lexus' design, finish and presentation! Just a pity about the name. The concept of being disposable curdles my system. Our car is a 4WD LX470 with a hand book that even I can't be bothered reading in detail since there is just so much to absorb. Anyway there is quite a section on disposing of the vehicle. No, not the transfer to another owner, the disposal, destruction, the crunch, kaput - Lexus Heaven!! Can you imagine recounting this to an original owner of an Hispano or Blower Bentley when we get up to the great garage in the sky?? But that is the way of today! | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1031 Registered: 4-2003 |
So Brian can I assume that you never alter your 'wheels' Summer or Winter? | ||
| Brian Crump Experienced User Username: brian_crump Post Number: 27 Registered: 2-2007 |
Dear Bill, I play with my wheels. Yes, I am afraid I do.  Regards, Brian (Message edited by brian_crump on 09 November 2008) | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1032 Registered: 4-2003 |
Well dear Brian, I rest my case or QED as deemed appropriate! BBC | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1507 Registered: 4-2003 |
It's funny reading about what the climate control systems are accused of lacking on our cars, but be sure that the criticisms can only be directed at the early cars from 1977 to 1986. Lexus was only the dream of some apprentice at Toyota back then, and only became the glint in his eye until 1989. Well, in fact the late 1986 20,000-series onwards cars do have a fast-warm function for startup in Winter and a fast-cool function for startup in Summer, all automatic without wearing out the temperature dials or fooling with the selector knob. The Japanese certainly don't hold the mortgage on this. The microcomputer conrol electronics on those cars are completely different from the primitive discrete component controls of the earlier SZs and the SSII cars: those earlier cars do not have the automatic early warm/cool feature. So far so good. Now for what has been named the Desert Storm on one such system. For some years, a colleague in Southern Germany has suffered a malfunction, as the system thinks it is cold in Summer. It gives the Winter's automatic hot blast even when it is stinking hot outside. It lasts some minutes until the vehicle has warmed up, so we have been exploring the CC temperature probes on the thermostat housing and all that. This is a 20,000-series Mulsanne S. He has had his autoelectrician work through the obvious temperature switches, selectors and sensors, and pretty much exhausted the control system, so let's not start a barrage of try-this-try-that as they have almost all been done. Oh dear, after a short respite it has turned Middle Eastern inside again. Does anyone have a really good diagnostic chapter for the 20,000-series climate control ? We could use this on the technical library in general. Quote from Email ________________________________ Hi Richard, how are you doing? Guess why I am writing again? Yes you are right, its the damned desert storm again. The guy at the repair shop did many things. He checked the relays, switches, sensors and cleaned the electric contacts. Then the storm was gone. Today after starting the engine it was back. But it disapeared much faster than before. Only 2 or 3 minutes. Mysterical. In case you have any ideas please let me know. There is a diagnostic device for the aircon system. Do you know someone who has it? Probably the RROC and they might borrow it to members. But I do not know whether they send it overseas. Best regards ________________________________ RT. | ||
| Brian Crump Experienced User Username: brian_crump Post Number: 28 Registered: 2-2007 |
All official Bentley dealers have a test bed for the aircon that may be called for in this situation. Regards, Brian | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1508 Registered: 4-2003 |
Thank's Brian, but that does not help. The test box cannot be put online. If you have used the test box, you will immediately find out how useless it really is. It is neither capable nor needed to fit and calibrate a new microprocessor controller for a start, and that is already covered in the Technical Library anyhow. Although the test box tries to help in other adjustments such as flap positions and the like, they are done more accurately without the test box. Ultimately, the test box ends up telling you to replace everything, and that is of no help. Where it finds an open circuit in a sensor, that is found more positively and quickly with a multimeter in the first place. A new microprocessor board costs upwards of $3,200 and a reconditioned exchange unit upwards of $2,000, and that doesn't guarantee a result. I have one here belonging to one of our members. His system was diagnosed by Bentley, and the board was reploaced by a brand new one at enormous cost. The old board tested OK on the bench as far as I could go, so I am suspicious that the old one was not faulty, but then a dealer is unlikely to admit that once the true but trivial problem is subsequently found. For good measure, I fitted all new microrelays and a few new output transistors to the old board. It works on the bench (again) at a parts cost of $40, but I am yet to try it on a car. I am asking that a diagnostics chapter be included in the Technical Library. RT. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1509 Registered: 4-2003 |
Here is a microprocessor controller for a 20,000-series climate control system. Note the test plug inserted for calibration purposes on the car. The LED is there purely for calibration purposes, and the test box is not a part of the process. The test box usually tells you to replace this ridiculously expensive board no matter where the problem really lies. RT.  | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1511 Registered: 4-2003 |
Note that the board shown above now has clear-covered Fujitsu microrelays, superior to the equivalent blue Tyco ones originally fitted. The microrelays, being electromechanical devices, are by far the most common defects on these boards. Industry-standard relays, they come with just two pin configurations regardless of the brand. Tyco, Fujitsu, Siemens or otherwise, they cost less than $4 each, and power driver transistors around $1. Using a solder sucker, soldering iron and solder to replace them all as a routine whenever the board is on the bench will save you $1,000s and take less time than to make the phone call to order a new board. RT. | ||
| James Feller Experienced User Username: james_feller Post Number: 42 Registered: 5-2008 |
All this talk about thumbwheels and playing and not chilly blasts.... I can get a chilly blast if I want one out of my bullseyes and lower facia vents. I whirl both wheels to full blue and behold after a little whirring from the servos in the dash all air is directed to the facia and hey presto its chilly. In saying this there is no real need to do this anyway as the system should speed up the fans and adjust air blend flaps depending on 1. ambient temp 2.solar radiation and interior sensors registration to the ECU 3. Thumbwheel locations At this time of year I personally prefer to have the interior like the arctic, my thumb wheels are mostly blue, the bottom thumbwheel, particularly as this is the one that registers how much to open the heater tap, is always blue in summer. I set the system then to 'Auto' or 'Low'. Auto just speeds up or slows the fans to reach desired temp as quickly as possible and then maintains this temp. Its your thumbwheels that do the air blending and control where it comes out. I think the system is generally very good with pretty consistant air blending and conditioning regardless of the outside temp. I have read the above postings and am surpised by a few, as I know my systems is working as it should and again I say if I want a chilly blast I can have it, its full blue dials and Auto selected.... put a parker on or at least gloves!! However I would agree with Bill, the system is not quite as 'intuative' as modern climate control, my Rangie and BMW being new cars ie built in the 21st century... have as you would expect more advanced systems but the capability and the automotive operaton of the Crewe system is still excellent for its age in my opinion. J | ||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Frequent User Username: lluís Post Number: 56 Registered: 8-2007 |
Hello all, Just another question on ventilation systems. Somehow I cannot manage to get much air from the foot well vents (Continental-R). I think the ait valve on the feet is stuck, almost closed. I tries to access it but I do not manage to remove the glove box. Any ideas on how to get there and/or eventually solve the problem. Tanks in advance, Lluís |
