| Author | Message | ||
     Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Experienced User Username: lluís Post Number: 17 Registered: 8-2007 |
Dear all, Some kindly pointed out in the threat that I started asking for advice in a "Continental-R" purchase that "if you have to ask" about fuel consumption, better do not buy it. Well, I would like to ask. In some German cities where I travel regularly (Stuttgat, Munich) and in the Dutch capital (Amsterdam) they are starting to discuss about plainly forbidding access to cars not fulfilling "Euro-Whatever" emission specifications. Mind you, the upcoming Euro-V will limit the CO2 emmissions to an undisclosed g/Km according to the press. Only classic cars will have an exemption. As I am not buying a classic, but I am buying a 10 year old car to use for pleasure, even without using it much, the Continental R will not have an exemption so I might well be forbidden of travelling to Amsterdam and Munich, my regular destinations. I am grateful for the advice to buy a Clio for having to ask. However the RR and Bentley famous toast: "if you have to ask don't buy it" may turn out for those of us unfortunate enough to deal with some town-halls in "if does not fullfil the next Euro-crap emmissions you simply can't drive it in this city". So again, the advantages of the later engine management system in the 1995-onwards continental-R in terms of fuel economy may be more than simply economical to me and I am interested in them. Sorry for the sorcery. I did not find it over the internet for the EU-models, is there anybody anybody who may knows the Euro-City-Combined-Highway Fuel economy of both pre-1995 and post-1995 models. It seems that Euro-V will limit them to 500g/Km. Best regards and thanks in advance. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1390 Registered: 4-2003 |
Please do check, but the Nazis did not arrest me when I last drove my ageing but beloved Swiss-registered Turbo R to Munich not long ago. Attached is an earlier photo as it was raining Dachshunden last time (300km, 8.9 km/l at 80km/h on cruise all the way to Munich in pouring rain; 26 km/l in town traffic in Zürich and Munich, 21 km/l blasting home with no speed limits on the German Autobahnen, 14 km/l pottering along at 120 on the Swiss Autobahnen at 120 trying to stay awake from boredom. Conti Rs do much better, Mr Clio). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro_V So far, it seems that turning new cars into tomorrow's used milk cartons is only enforcable for new vehicles, although the Bundeskasse did win on Cat1 and Cat2 penalties for a few years. Any more info before I am arrested ? Seriouisly though, could someone tell us what is going on in Euro-V please !!!  | ||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Experienced User Username: lluís Post Number: 18 Registered: 8-2007 |
Yes, it was on the Volkskrant (Dutch) 2 weeks ago (internet version at least). There are rumours that Euro-next will be the first euro regulation wherein NEW cars will be limited to a maximum, not yet disclossed, CO2 emmisions level. This seems to me pretty stupid, as it does not measure the real fuel you use (how much you use the car), but it seems that it will be like this anyway. Germany is against it and it seems that this the only reason why it is not yet in force. Anyway, it was just a though but since the town hall of Amsterdam has already made public that it will forbid access to the city center to all cars new and old not fulfilling Euro-2 specifications, as have major town-halls in Germany, I do find it interesting to know what the advantages of one engine over the other are in terms of consumption. I really apologize, Richard, if I sounded a little sarcastic, but the gentle advice to buy a Clio to somebody seriously contemplating to buy a Bentley seemed to me a tad cynic in the post on the other threat. The information you provided me is appreciated, thank you. | ||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Experienced User Username: lluís Post Number: 19 Registered: 8-2007 |
I just took a closer look over internet to my previous exaggerations (honestly coming from a press article in a respected newspaper). Indeed the background is correct, Euro-next, in this case Euro VI will be limiting for the first time CO2 emmisions on NEW cars. At the moment there are only guidelines, but it will be implemented in 2012. More here. http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/automotive/pagesbackground/pollutant_emission/index.htm Two scenarios are being discussed. The (annoying) one that the greens like: plainly forbid the manufacture of new cars with more than X g/Km emmission in CO2. The other one: Add a cost to the environmental tax of 20-95 €/g/Km CO2 over the allowed 120 g/Km. See last paragraph of: http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/07/1965&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en Experience in Germany (Lived myself in Munich 6 years) shows that this will be applyed retroactively, in terms of taxation (the importance of which is a subjective matter) and in terms of access to the so called green areas (less subjective indeed). It seems strange that the post came to this point I simply wanted to know how much more efficient was one engine management over the other, forbid my heretic thoughts! Best regards | ||
| Lutz Gruenenwald New User Username: jimknopf Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2006 |
The above issue about Euro-whatever emission standards is explained shortly: As long as the car has a catalytic system, it is allowed in these socalled "Umweltzonen". Without a cat the car must be at least or older than 30 year to be driven around in these areas. In Germany you can get an historic number plate which shows the letter "H" at the end. So if is applicable for your car just get yourself a windshield sticker at any garage/shop oder ADAC office or MOT (TUeV or DEKRA station). It is valid for all EU-countries, so Amsterdam is not an issue anymore. Regards, Lutz PS: And please: There are no Nazis around anymore! (Message edited by jimknopf on 22 January 2009) | ||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Frequent User Username: lluís Post Number: 69 Registered: 8-2007 |
Dear Lutz, Unfortunately I think (I am quite sure to say the least) that this is not the case. In the Munich Grün areas (it's a minicipality choice) it is not alolowed to drive a catalytic system under a Euro-2 "Geregelt" system. It's brutally stupid in my opinion, but this means that you cannot get in the center of Munich with anything built before +-1990, as crude as that, historics included. There were demonstrations of different classic club cars, but to my knowledge the town hall did not change their position. The (old) issue I raised, concerned choosing between two Continental-R models, one with with the Euro-3 management system and the previous "Euro-2" model. I chose for the later, but it came solely to a individual choice based on the cars I could choose from. Apparently the EU (National governments) is preparing a new emmission law that will limit the CO2 emmisions. It´s silly, it's stupid, but it's like that. As a matter od fact, it will be in pace for heavy vehicles in the next two years. I hope that in 10 years our cars will not be banned from the city centers which they so graciously decorate just because they do not fulfill Euro-X specifications on the basis of a silly fuel computation (my Bentley uses less fuel than most cars, as a matter of fact, because it has lived already longer than most, and drives less and in better conditions). I will be in India a few weeks now, so I will not be posting, happily Indians are still quite understanding about car emmisions  . Best regards, Lluís | ||
| Lutz Gruenenwald New User Username: jimknopf Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2006 |
Hello Luis! I should have "revealed" that I live in Munich and I'm runnning several elderly cars here. My reply above states the regulations as of now. So any Euro 1-System will get a green sticker and is allowed to enter these areas. For an overview of what Luis and I are talking about regarding Germany, here is a short wikipedia article about the issue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_emission_zone For all of the details I only have the German wikipedia pages for you: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verordnung_zum_Erlass_und_zur_%C3%84nderung_von_Vorschriften_%C3%BCber_die_Kennzeichnung_emissionsarmer_Kraftfahrzeuge Hopefully you find your cars "within" all the rules and regulations... Regards Lutz | ||
| Udo Hoffmüller Experienced User Username: udo Post Number: 17 Registered: 2-2008 |
Dear Richard, sorry to get out off the thread with my question: What is that rare fuel consumption you are telling us? 14 km/l means (multiplied by 7) about 98 km/7 l, in other words, at 80 km/h your car needs only 7 l for about 100 km!? Even better now: In town traffic you got 26 km/l which means only 104 km/4 l or in other words consumption of about 4 l on every 100 km of town traffic.!!! What did you do with your car? Did you fit a hybrid engine? Or did you find a way to collect the heat produced by the engine and convert it into fuel? Please tell us! Fuel is expensive! Although it is cheaper now, this will not last for long time! Or could it be that I did not understand what you told us?? Best regards - Udo | ||
| Lutz Gruenenwald New User Username: jimknopf Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2006 |
> Posted Saturday, 31 May, 2008 - 07:50 am: >... did not arrest me when I last drove my ageing but beloved Swiss-registered Turbo R to Munich not long ago. Richard! At that time Munich didn't have a low emission zone yet. This was created on Octber 1st 2008 with a no-fine-period of three months. From 1. of January 2009 they do check and ticket you if they catch an offender. Gruss Lutz | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1576 Registered: 4-2003 |
Woops, and sorry: I miswrote it completely last year. I meant L/100km of course. Km/L is virtually never quoted in Australia. It should have read: …300km, 8.9 L/100km at 80km/h on cruise all the way ..... ; 26 L/100km in town traffic......., 21 km/l blasting home with no speed limits ......, 14 L/100km pottering along at 120.... So, the figures are usually quite appalling, but can be quite varied. The stretch at 8.9 L/100km over 300km was quite an extraordinary figure, showing that the cars can be quite economical at a modest and absolutely constant speed on a level stretch of road. At other times, a shocking 30 L/100km is not unusual. As to Euro-1, Euro-2 and successors, I can’t stop my cynicism. Whilst I agree entirely on the standards for new vehicles, and that they be improved rapidly, it is a rotten plot when the target moves all the time for those who intend to keep their vehicles for more than a few years. Just look at the situation in Germany. Remember in the 1980s when the German industry resisted catalytic converters rigidly until the Black Forest was in serious trouble and the government went wild ? Only then did the industry agree, but only after a deal was struck with the authorities. The benefit for the industry was that cats and emission controls were made compulsory, and existing non-cat cars were taxed out of existence in Germany. The industry was delighted as tough emission controls guaranteed a surge in new car sales while the old cars disappeared to Poland to do their polluting across the border. Finally the design went into Cat systems to make the vehicles driveable Until then, an Australian- or Californian-spec 450SEL drove like a sick German 280SEL. The Australian vehicles had compulsory standards the same as in California long before it was even an issue in Europe. At the time, many Australians bought cars in Europe to Australian-spec to own, use and save taxes and import duties, our family included, and had the cat exhaust temporarily replaced by a plain one for their use in Europe until they were sent to Australia. That at least meant that searching for the few outlets just starting to offer unleaded fuel was not necessary. Tariffs have dropped since, so the benefits have lapsed thank goodness. More than a few youths were sent by Dad to Europe on the big school-leavers’ trip for two years, driving around in an expensive car for him while the Australian import duty and sales tax/MWSt declined rapidly with ownership. It paid for the whole trip and more. Mind you, if the authorities played with retrospective emissions legislation in Australia, there would be blood everywhere. RT. | ||
| James Feller Frequent User Username: james_feller Post Number: 54 Registered: 5-2008 |
Interesting topic, I have not done offical figures for 'the old girl' but I would suspect its fairly horrific around town... I think I get about 350klms before the needle gets to 1/4 full and the amber light so subtly lets me know that in the next 50klms pushing her is not desirable to my health. However I have gone to Canberra and back on a tank? 108 litres... yes the light was on and not even blinking by the time I was on the M2 clsoe to my petrol station, I was playing a very dangerous game!!!! but however far it is to Canberra from my home in West Pennant Hills seems pretty good to me??? I had cruise set at 115klms. I will conceed apart from 5 minutes of suburban road it is freeway all the way to the ACT so it was sitting at a constant speed which does of course help. Richard 9/per 100klms is brillant thought you were doing 80klms.... I just would not be able to control myself, your car would be too much of a temptation to bury the right foot!!! J | ||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Frequent User Username: lluís Post Number: 70 Registered: 8-2007 |
I am back from India. Driving there is a-w-f-u-l. But anyway, back to the threat, I thank you Lutz for you precisions. I had not realised it was fine for Euro-1 cars to drive in Munich. There was much talk just before I moved out of Munich, and I do remember that they wanted to ban my poor old Jaguar (non cat) and my Cooper (with a crudely retrofitted and now fortunately removed U-Cat). Fortunataly my 94' Bentley can still drive there when I visit. Independently how hard I try I cannot understand the present taxation system for cars in Europe: they are all introducing fixed emmission-class dependent taxes on new cars, but why on earth? The car only "emmits" if it is driven, and then it uses petrol, so why on earth not just tax petrol? Dutch laws are a lot more logical. There is a high petrol tax and the road tax is only dependent on weight, which actually makes a lot more sense in this country. City roads here need refurbishment every three years, as the country is built on sand and due to draining roads in residential areas in the city are basically made of bricks, you get "tram-rails" very soon. As for the fuel consumption, I get more or less the same as Richard from my Continental, I really do not find it appalling for a car this size and weight. Autonomy is on the other hand miserable for a "cruiser" of this class, about 420 Km at gentle "German" speeds is bad, and for me there is plenty of space in that boot for an extra 50 liters of petrol. Lluís | ||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Frequent User Username: lluís Post Number: 71 Registered: 8-2007 |
Hi Lutz, Indeed my knowledge status when I wrote my post was that of mid 2006 when I moved to the Hague, then they really wanted to ban everyting below Euro-2. I remember because the last classic Minis (Euro-2) where going to be kicked out of the city center and there was much protest and even a demonstration. It's really good that now it's just Euro-1, at least it can be retrofitted even to carburetted cars I believe, even if it's at great cost. Euro nothing would have been even better. Ll. | ||
| RandyR Unregistered guest Posted From: 146.130.118.111 |
If I may offer, perhaps the reason the car is taxed, not the petrol, is that our Fearless Leaders wish to discourage the purchase of 'certain' cars in favor of others, made of thinner tin, etc. (Message approved by david_gore) |
