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jon steinberg
New User
Username: amanda_ripanykhazova

Post Number: 3
Registered: 05-2020
Posted on Saturday, 30 May, 2020 - 23:58:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Does anyone know if there is any software on the market yet which can actually do anything with the output of an OBD11 port on a Spirit series which has such a port please?

i have an inexpensive BT plug but most of the time it doesn't want to communicate with the ECU. And when it does, neither Torque nor OBD Doctor can interpret any results it gives on my smartphone.

is there any software developed yet which can initialise the ECU properly and interpret any output from it, preferably on my laptop please? The Torque interface is pathetically klunky and things like autoingenuity has a scary looking site which seems designed only for garages which can use them a lot to get proper value out of the cost!

Or does the plug itself do the initialising and do I need to buy a more sophisticated plug?

My car is doing about 9-12 MPG and surely something in OBD11 can tell me what is wrong without the proprietary Bentley codes?
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Lluís Gimeno-Fabra
Frequent User
Username: lluís

Post Number: 444
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Tuesday, 02 June, 2020 - 16:51:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dear Jon,

Would this be for your 1996 Brooklands?

I can tell you that 1993-1995 models will need a Motronic 3.3 software, as used by BMW in the E32/E40 V8's (PLEASE note this is for the 6.75 l. V8, which actually runs in a BMW-like ECU).

When I am done with mine I will map it and will come to you. Bentley / RR could not develop own controllers hence a lot is piggied from other manufacturers, therefore I am confident that we will find a software that can interface with it.

Best,

Lluís
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Lluís Gimeno-Fabra
Frequent User
Username: lluís

Post Number: 445
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Tuesday, 02 June, 2020 - 16:56:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

PS: Do you have a check engine light on? 9-12mpg is not nice indeed and there can be a million causes, but you do not need OBD for this.

I would first ask: how does the car run in terms of performance?

How are the obvious (plugs and air filter) and less obvious suspects (cat and pre-cat) that may impact performance. Have you checked timing (faulty CP sensors) and which type of Flow Meter do you have? Hot Ceramic plate AFM's are very delicate and sensitive to dirt with massive fuelling implications. They are used in the post 1993 cars up to the Zytek models that drive on MAP (pressure). You can easily access it from the filter housing and clean it gently with contact spray.

Best,

Lluís
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Lluís Gimeno-Fabra
Frequent User
Username: lluís

Post Number: 446
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Tuesday, 02 June, 2020 - 16:58:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jon, do not touch by any means the AFM in case you have one (not sure what car you have) and simply spray contact cleaner on the plate. They are extremely breakable.
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Amanda RIpanykhazova
New User
Username: amanda_ripanykhazova

Post Number: 4
Registered: 05-2020
Posted on Tuesday, 02 June, 2020 - 22:40:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thank you for that Luis and yes, it IS for the 96 Brooklands. I do have the OBD11 interface as i implied when i said my car "has such a port". Is there a serious problem with the contacts on the MAP sensor getting constantly dirty? I had exactly this problem a year ago and having tried a few new sensors (a generic and a Bosch which Bosch said was correct for my car!) neither of which worked at all, I did carefully spray the contacts and the problem went away. But I figured the dirt built up after a few decades use, and didn't realise that the problem could occur again within a year/few thousand miles! I thought that the MAP sensor problem was one which i could now rule out, especially where performance is fine

But I did start to wonder when, only yesterday the check engine light came on pretty much as soon as the car got hot: And then, amazingly, after 45 minutes of highway driving, it went off again!!

Do you know if anything changed in 1996 to comply with the US regulations or were the systems the same, but there was suddenly that port in the glove compartment? Surely if the ECU is the same as a BMW E32/E40, I should be able to use the Torque settings for that car?
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Lluís Gimeno-Fabra
Frequent User
Username: lluís

Post Number: 450
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Tuesday, 02 June, 2020 - 23:49:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Amanda or Jon or both,

Yes, from 96 MY OBD II ports were compulsory. Nothing changed though in as much as I know in the k-l lines which communicate with the ECU that use as ISO 9141 (?) protocol. Very possibly the problem is waking up the ECU.

I think you need to check -there are older threads- on some of these:

TPS
2XCPS
MAP
CTS (top one in the thermostat pedestal 0-5V)
Air Filter
Coils, cables and Sparks (8X)
Air/Vacuum Leaks
Lambda


I hope all is correct in the information above. Such a high fuel consumption can have many causes and MAP / Lambda will have a massive impacts
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Lluís Gimeno-Fabra
Frequent User
Username: lluís

Post Number: 451
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Tuesday, 02 June, 2020 - 23:50:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Amanda: from my limited experience air leaks can be a killer as well as a bad lambda and CTS. All are relatively cheap to fix.
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Amanda RIpanykhazova
New User
Username: amanda_ripanykhazova

Post Number: 5
Registered: 05-2020
Posted on Wednesday, 03 June, 2020 - 00:16:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Yes, it is probably one of those, most probably an air leak if it is not the MAP contacts again: Can any software identify any of this please? Or do I have to get a proper adapter as opposed to the $5 eBay Chinese one?

The only real symptom I can identify is that from cold, the car now needs to be turned over for 5-8 seconds before the engine fires. If I take the car on a lengthy run at high revs to clear off any buildup on the plugs and then turn the engine off, it doesn't make any difference to how long I have tu turn over the engine from cold to get it to start.
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Lluís Gimeno-Fabra
Frequent User
Username: lluís

Post Number: 452
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Wednesday, 03 June, 2020 - 01:04:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

As I said, I cannot give you the answer, but a CTS or a Lambda (plus any obvious leaks) would be clearly my main concern.

I note that software will tell you that a lambda is faulty, but not why...
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Jon Steinberg
New User
Username: amanda_ripanykhazova

Post Number: 8
Registered: 05-2020
Posted on Wednesday, 15 July, 2020 - 22:03:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

LATE REPORT

Yes, it was the el-cheapo Chinese adapter which was at fault with the constantly disconnecting interface. I have now bought a $25 iCar VGate adapter and it does seem to have a more stable interface, immediately it is plugged in. Even torque reports activity now, - it rarely showed anything before!

I will report back if I get anything useful out of OBD Auto-Doctor with this adapter which, - interestingly, - works with either bluetooth or WiFi.

Meanwhile my car is back up to 15.8 MPG on a run, - after a few long runs. Which indicates to me some problem with the injectors which clears itself after a few hours driving at reasonably high revs. Coincidentally I poured in a bottle of injector cleaner (STP?) which I thought could do very little. Possibly i was wrong, though the car does still stink of fumes if you get too close to the rear while it is sitting there idling.

Maybe it is time to weaken the mixture? Or possibly clean the MAP filter again?}
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Lluís Gimeno-Fabra
Frequent User
Username: lluís

Post Number: 460
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Thursday, 16 July, 2020 - 18:15:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jon: thank you for this precious information.

I am not sure how do you want to weaken the mixture unless you go into mapping.

A bad Coolant Temperature sensor (too high resistance) will give a "cold" reading enrichening the mixture.
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Lluís Gimeno-Fabra
Frequent User
Username: lluís

Post Number: 461
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Thursday, 16 July, 2020 - 18:49:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Note, Jon, that a defective CTS resistance (unless the circuit is open) will not be detected by the ECU, that simply measures then a much lower temperature than real.
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 2056
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Thursday, 16 July, 2020 - 19:58:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dear Jon,
As Lluis says - it could simply be a Coolant Temperature Sensor problem. These things do fail and they are easy to replace. They are also not expensive.
I would change this item out as a matter of course.
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Jon Steinberg
New User
Username: amanda_ripanykhazova

Post Number: 9
Registered: 05-2020
Posted on Saturday, 18 July, 2020 - 07:23:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I have now found a problem, using OBd11 vgate and Torque. but there are so many of them that I think i might have preferred not to know!!

I checked fault codes and found a whole plethora of them, (though a lot may go away if the problem is just the water temp sensor): It is curious that the check engine light (which does flicker on occasionally before going off agaih) isn't permanently on!

P0106,MAP filter/sensor
Serious, or prolonged misfires on one or more cylinders
Clogged catalytic converter(s)
Vacuum leaks as the result of poor maintenance
Defective throttle position sensor
Defective, or malfunctioning mass airflow sensor.
Defective Exhaust Gas Recirculation valve
Defective Idle Air Control Motor
Other causes that are directly related to the MAP sensor include:
Open, shorted, or damaged wiring
Defective BARO sensor (where fitted)
Defective MAP sensor
Unmetered air entering the inlet tract.

P0132, Oxygen sensor
Defective oxygen sensor/air fuel ratio sensor
Defective oxygen sensor/air fuel ratio sensor heater circuit
Defective mass air flow sensor
High fuel pressure
Defective engine coolant temperature sensor
Defective sensor wiring and/or circuit problem
PCM software needs to be updated
Defective PCM

P0138,
Faulty O2 Sensor
Short to battery voltage in O2 sensor signal circuit
Corroded wiring
Fuel pressure too high
Engine coolant temperature sensor

P0172 (system too rich, bank 1)
A leaking fuel injector
Excessive fuel pressure due to restriction along the fuel return line or a faulty fuel pressure regulator
Filthy air filter
Restrictions somewhere in the air intake system
Clogging due to buildup or physical damage in these exhaust components: catalytic converter, exhaust pipe, and muffler
Faulty O2 sensor
Exhaust leak
Problems with other sensors (e.g., coolant temperature sensor, mass airflow sensor)
Circuit issues, such as loose connections and damaged wiring
Issues with the PCM, such as software in need of an update

A lot of this would account for the lousy mpg, though not for the improvement recently. I wonder if a different OBD11 app might assist to narrow any of this down a bit?
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 2336
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Saturday, 18 July, 2020 - 18:28:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Clear all codes and repeat a check and see what codes are now present.
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gordon le feuvre
Frequent User
Username: triumph

Post Number: 356
Registered: 07-2012
Posted on Sunday, 02 August, 2020 - 18:48:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Codes on all cars are known as hard or soft. Any problem from semi flat battery throws up a multitude of codes. Record them, clear them, road test and see what comes back recorded. Good practice is to charge battery before test. Garages now connect charger to car as during diagnostics (ignition on the off then on) if battery starts to lose voltage this will throw up it’s own codes to muddy already muddied water!
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Jon Steinberg
New User
Username: amanda_ripanykhazova

Post Number: 10
Registered: 05-2020
Posted on Tuesday, 04 August, 2020 - 01:42:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The codes just re-appear when connected three times.

But I have a pain-in-the-neck wifi obd device, which I am replacing with one I have just seen called a PRO DEVICE specifically for bimmercodes! (I don't believe this but at least it MAY be slightly more comfortable with the ISO9141 - 2 BMW codes which these cars generate)

Will report back if it enlightens me to whether or not I need a new thermostat
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 3074
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 04 August, 2020 - 14:01:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

What do you mean by "just reappear when connected three times?" It sounds like you're saying that they come back after doing a check three times, which should make absolutely no difference.

All of the codes you originally described are a part of the core OBD-II specification, and are not specific to any marque.

After you get whatever reader you're waiting on, do report back on the codes it pulls. While you're at it, try pulling them again with your Bluetooth OBD adapter and Torque. If the codes are part of the core OBD-II specification there should be no difference between the two.

It's when you start getting into codes that are manufacturer specific, and for low volume makers like RR and Bentley, where things can get dicey, but those codes are very seldom thrown. The bulk of P (Powertrain) codes any of us ever see are not specific to a given make.

Brian
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Jon Steinberg
New User
Username: amanda_ripanykhazova

Post Number: 11
Registered: 05-2020
Posted on Tuesday, 04 August, 2020 - 22:59:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

No, What I meant was that after clearing the codes no codes re-appear. I was at a Rolls repair garage where they told me that I had to recycle the adapter three times before the codes showed.

I did this and three codes re-appeared. So I will take the air filter out for a few drives and see if it changes anything on the codes or the MPG. (I don't think I can switch the thermostat as easily)

Interestingly, the MPG has gone up to 13.5 on a run since i started fiddling with the OBD, and I can now get Torque to read sometimes. It says I am getting 15.8 on a run! (But to balance it out, it also occasionally reads 5.8mpg in city driving!!)
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 3075
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 05 August, 2020 - 01:07:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I have no idea why anyone would tell you something like that about any OBD device.

They do not need to be "re-cycled" they're plug-n-play and just pull from the ECU(s) whatever is stored there. But, on all makes, it is always strongly suggested that the OBD reader be connected with the vehicle turned off, then start it.

These cars don't get great mileage, for a number of obvious reasons. You also have to know whether the mileage figure being presented by any OBD device is an instantaneous reading or an average reading. You'll sink to 0 mpg for instantaneous readings if you sit at a light long enough or are parked long enough. And average will vary wildly after an initial reset and low mileage. It only really has any meaning after you've been driving for a while and enough miles have passed.

And, again, what are the 3 codes? It is impossible to offer any accurate guidance absent those codes.

Brian
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Jon Steinberg
New User
Username: amanda_ripanykhazova

Post Number: 12
Registered: 05-2020
Posted on Wednesday, 05 August, 2020 - 02:13:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks for that Brian. I will go out to the car when i can and pull current codes IF I can get the wifi working again. Especially if I can get the air filter cover off and take out the air filter for the test.,

Meanwhile if some software can read (for example) this video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKcBbQhZpU4

surely it could get a whole lot closer to telling me exactly what is wrong?
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 3076
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 05 August, 2020 - 02:48:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

There are two factors involved with OBD, and that's what the device itself is designed to be able to read (many older devices, or even newer less expensive ones, won't read ABS or SRS data, nor can they do realtime data) coupled with what the software being used is designed to be able to pull from the device. This is true even if you're using a dedicated OBD reader, as not all are designed to pull absolutely everything, and the more things they can pull, the more expensive they get.

I have a number of OBD-II devices, most Bluetooth adapters I use with Torque, but also a now "older" Innova 3130 dedicated unit.

One thing you need to know about OBD-II is it is not something that will often "tell me exactly what is wrong." Sometimes it does, other times you will get codes that result from something upstream of the thing throwing the code having gone bad. It's guidance, and you get better over time at recognizing what's likely to be a "that's the problem area, pretty exactly" code versus something that requires further digging. I wish I could pull specific examples from my head, but I can't. Over the years I've posted a ton on a Buick forum and a Jaguar forum with regard to OBD and how certain things can be misleading. One of the biggest problems in auto service is the mistaken belief that you can take a technician who "knows nothing," give them an OBD reader, and it will instantly diagnose exactly what's wrong and the fix will be obvious. That ends up in a lot of throwing parts at a problem until something eventually sticks when someone with more experience would say, "Hey, I need to look at {insert other things here} before knowing whether that code is what it says it is," before taking even the first step at a repair.

I've just recalled an example I can give from a long trip to Texas and back that I took some years ago with my 1996 Buick Roadmaster Estate Wagon, which I still have. On the return trip home, the engine would be purring along the highway and suddenly just stop, like I'd turned off the key, with no Check Engine light being shown. It would then start up instantly again, and go on for a while then repeat the episode. I carry my OBD reader on trips, and my partner and I connected it before continuing on at one point. When I stopped at my first Buick dealer, they could find nothing wrong (no surprise there) on quick inspection, but the gentleman who looked at the car said, "Keep the reader connected and looking at realtime data, if you notice a sudden change in O2 readings at the time of engine cut out, suspect that the fuel pump is going." Well, it turned out that this was precisely what was occurring, and we had to stop in Houston to have it repaired after it was clearly getting worse and we had more information to go on.

Most of the codes you will ever encounter, regardless of make, are going to be core OBD codes, and specifically P (Powertrain) codes.

Brian
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 3754
Registered: 04-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 05 August, 2020 - 09:53:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian's post above is "spot on" regarding the use of vehicle diagnostic devices as they are not infallible and the vehicle monitoring devices may not throw the right codes when a problem occurs for a wide range of reasons.

There is no substitute for experience and intuition when problems arise.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 3077
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Thursday, 06 August, 2020 - 03:40:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I decided to take a cruise in the forums wayback machine for several of my former cars to see what I'd posted that might be pertinent here. Some of it is not specifically OBD code related, but is OBD related in that information is presented some way.

My main point is that information you get from either OBD-II or status messages in a driver information center can often be spurious and unrelated to the actual issue at hand.

Though not directly RR/Bentley related, it is related in that these sorts of issues can (and do) arise with any marque where OBD is involved.

-----------------
Jag Stuff:

I thought I had a failing transmission at one point, too, when I started getting a series of "Gearbox Fault" warnings in a row. After our local Jag expert did a complete code reading (my reader is advanced, but does not cover "everything") and he didn't find the code(s) he expected for a real gearbox fault, we went the new battery route.

-

One of the things I've learned over time is that this car is exquisitely sensitive to a weak battery, but at the "level of systems monitoring." You can still crank the car when the battery is too low to satisfy some of the various monitors. Another common spurious warning from a low battery (even though the car easily cranks and starts) is ASC/Traction Control failure.

There are also a lot of technicians (I won't say mechanics) who's skill level is limited to pulling codes and throwing parts related to those codes at the problem. These cars can throw a variety of codes that have one base issue, and if you fix that one base issue the rest of the codes fall like a house of cards. My recent response to the person who complained of all eight cylinders misfiring at once (which, while possible, is exceedingly rare) was to make sure you don't have a single root cause. When I had my first ignition coil failure the "standard solution" was to replace all eight, which I did not do given the ludicrous cost of doing so. As time went by I found out that the replacement coils were as likely to die at random as the original ones were and that age had little to nothing to do with the likelihood of failure. I still have five of the eight original ignition coils in my car at 153K and carry a few spares in my trunk. It takes all of 15 minutes to change one (or more, in the same bank) if you have one fail and keep a code reader (or code reader dongle and Android-powered smartphone with Torque or Carista, for instance) with you so that you know which one has failed.

In the end, it astounds me that one of the things not monitored by the car is the charging state of the battery. I recently had the battery replaced and the tech who put it all back together managed to somehow fasten down the ground cable from the battery to its chassis stud just every so slightly incorrectly. I was getting enough contact to start the car, but you could see, once the thing was taken off, that intermittent arcing had been taking place between the connector and the stud. When I measured charging voltage before I took things apart, cleaned them up, and put them back together again it was barely 12V, not nearly enough. Once things were tidied up again it was back to a solid 14V.

-

You cannot use a P0300 code to determine that you have misfires on all 8 cylinders. If you do you should be getting P030X (where X will be 1 through 8) codes and the check engine/MIL light coming on. All it takes is one cylinder misfiring for these cars to feel/sound/act like they're in their death throes. I've had three ignition coils die (one at a time, and at random) over the years and you know it the instant one does. You get horrible behavior from the car, almost instant "restricted performance" message, and usually the red alert light coming on. There are typically a number of codes, but if I get a P030X code I pretty much instantly know that I've probably got a bad ignition coil on cylinder X.

-

The only good news in that batch of codes is the P1000, which is nothing but a status code

-

SeanB makes an important observation about a wide range of OBD-II codes: some get erased by the system itself if they do not recur within a specified number of engine start-up/shut-off cycles.

Also, do you not have an OBD-II/CAN device that allows you to clear codes yourself? I am not suggesting that you do this to falsify anything, but doing so can give you a much clearer picture of which issues are active versus which are either historical or transient. One thing I've learned, though, is to be sure to write down the stored codes before you clear them. This helps you not only to remember what was there, but to see what is still recurring and to look up detailed information on each code later.

-

Believe me, disconnecting your battery, letting the car sit for a while, and reconnecting it can solve quite a few mysterious problems.

New Addendum: Most cars of the multi-ECU age are nothing more than multiplexed/network computing environments. Those of us familiar with the old adage, "Have you power cycled it?," have learned that very often that gets "constipated" computers working again

Brian
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 2060
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Thursday, 06 August, 2020 - 04:56:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I had a P300 fault on my Azure that haunted me for 6 years. P300 says that it is a random multiple misfire. The cause of this was identified and sorted out by Udo Hoffmüller on this forum. The actual problem was a vacuum line which was not connected.
One more time Udo - many thanks
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 3078
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Thursday, 06 August, 2020 - 07:11:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Omar,

Thanks very much for another example where the code, P0300, is not in any way directly indicative of the root cause of a problem. Also for repeating the root cause identified by Mr. Hoffmüller.

I'll lay money that for all six of those years you were, at odd occasions, getting a single misfire on any number of cylinders that were "one time shots" for that driving cycle - they occurred but didn't keep recurring such that you could even really feel them.

This is actually a good way to tell whether you have a misfire "that sticks" on a single cylinder or not. And when you do, you'll know. I had one on my Buick in addition to my Jag (and the Buick one was self-inflicted with a careless reseating of the spark plug wire) and you can definitely feel a cylinder that's misfiring or not firing consistently.

Brian
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 2061
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Thursday, 06 August, 2020 - 17:46:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dear Brian,
Yes you are right - for all those years the MAP sensor was effectively only sensing ambient pressure hence giving the computer the wrong data about what pressure the manifold is at. The wrong data then translated to the wrong amount of fuel which would drop the engine speed resulting in the car almost stalling but then quickly correcting for itself but in the meantime registering a misfire.

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