| Author | Message | ||
     Graham Hutton Experienced User Username: gph Post Number: 30 Registered: 1-2019 |
I have been looking at Spirits / spurs. the first one is My Dads, he will pass it on when he feels like it, sometimes that means next week, other times in the next few years :-( His '89 Spirit has A/C which only works on flat out or slow, the climate control isn't operational (cost to repair?) I then looked at an '88 Spirit, all looks ok , drives well enough ( a second drive is in order to ascertain performance over different roads) But again, the A/C was an issue, wasn't working at all (blows hot air, no cool air) then I drove an '88 Spur, again, blows hot air, no A/C . "Her Indoors" is of a skeptical nature and is making loads of negative noises about my desire to own a Spirit, is the A/C an issue across the board? or have i just been unlucky? | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 3194 Registered: 4-2003 |
No airconditioning is a sure sign of neglected and/or minimal maintenance. The problem may a simple case of regassing with refrigerant or, in the worst case, something requiring a major overhaul. As your father's car is a known familiar vehicle, I would be favouring this over other unknown vehicles. "Better the Devil you know than the one you do not!!" In all cases, I would budget AUD10,000 for maintenance/repairs over the next 5 years as problems become evident if your father's car has been a "garage queen" and essential for an unknown vehicle if you go down this option. Tell SWMBO, the more you use the car, the better it will be and the running expenses will reduce over time as a consequence. All RR/B vehicles thrive on being used regularly and those that are not invariably have ongoing issues which make them more expensive to own.  | ||
| Roderick Waite Prolific User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 219 Registered: 1-2012 |
Hello Graham - a/c is a bit of a puzzle in the way it works. From what you say, I'd guess the system needs re-gassing. It's a common fault, and your first port of call - or get the owner to do it and check afterwards. If the compressor is noisier than the engine it might be bearing problems, which will require a new compressor in the not too far distant future. Plus the receiver - both have to be replaced. As David says, the Devil you know is usually the best bet ... although I do like the extra 4" of leg room in the back of the Spurs ... | ||
| michael vass Grand Master Username: mikebentleyturbo2 Post Number: 545 Registered: 7-2015 |
Hi Graham Where you live you need it working tip top, Omar also needs his working tip top too lol, he gave me lots of advice to get mine working. There are 2 main systems the mechanical(not much different to any other American car) and the electronics which can be tricky to sort. Like Rod says a new dryer/filter and a flush then regas should sort the mechanical. Good luck Mike | ||
| Steve Emmott Prolific User Username: steve_e Post Number: 168 Registered: 11-2018 |
Anything to do with the air con on the 'mechanical' side I would strongly suggest is better left to a professional as I have seen a few injuries over the years with the liquid escaping from pipes and freezing peoples fingers. Also I would always as a matter of course change the expansion valve too when doing a complete system overhaul. 50% of 'faulty' air con systems I have done over the years have been blocked expansion valves usually down to the receiver drier breaking down. Despite doing a full vacuum and hold test whilst checking for other leaks often you do not clear a blocked expansion valve. As David G said though first step and least cost is to get a top up of gas/liquid (the gas turns to liquid when compressed) and then a gas sniffer around all the joints. UK charge for this is around 35GBP. A little more if in need of a complete charge weight. Alternatively if there is no sign of any gas in the system then it is more appropriate to do a full 'vac and hold' test check before adding any gas/liquid into the system. Liquid is added to the high pressure line and gas to the low pressure line this is important. Modern cars now are clearly showing the points on the car as RED for HP and BLUE for LP but on older cars you probably won't find the connections coloured. Different A/C engineers may choose either way (personally I always used the LP side with gas) depending on location and availability of fittings on the car and this is simply achieved by turning the container upside down and the container should be clearly marked stating which way up is which. You can also add into the system some fluorescent dye which helps with a UV light to show up any leaky areas. There is another similar thread running at the moment 'A/C madness' and I was quite amazed to see how much electric relays and interlocks are on the later RR/B air con systems and now so involved, so for sure a much cheaper route to check all that out first and it is functional. A few Bosch relays, microswitch or temperature sensor will not prove anywhere near the cost of the mechanical A/C parts. Professional A/C companies now have machines to capture the gas out of the system and many can filter and reuse this gas. In the old days it was just left to vent off to atmosphere at around 20GBP a kilo no one bothered or understood the ozone layer issues, but the gas is now a lot more expensive and it is now illegal even privately to vent to atmosphere. However as I said in that thread it is quite simple to feel the heat/cool on the pipes and follow this round the system to know if the gas is being compressed and fed out to the condenser. The condenser usually fitted at the front of the car in front of the radiator then cools this hot liquid before passing to the receiver drier. The expansion valve then lets the cooled liquid turn to gas like releasing contents of an aerosol can through the nozzle. This rapid expansion creates the cooling effect. If access to the expansion valve is easy then again it is simple to check both sides, as if the expansion valve is not blocked then it will be noticeably colder on the outlet side even if insulated. If the pipe feed out from the compressor to the condenser is not hot/warm to the touch then either the clutch is not engaging due to no gas, low system pressure or electrical safety interlock faults. Some receiver driers had a glass sight window at the top and you could see the liquid through the glass which was a good sign. Usually a few bubbles visible to start with and then soon clearing to just see the liquid. If nothing and looks clear then this means likely no/low gas in the system. It is a long time now since I have had to work on air con and appreciate there is a lot of modern equipment now available so again I say let a professional look at the system. I still have all the old equipment I used different sniffers for different gas, vacuum pumps and fill pipes. The little plastic bottle at the top of the sniffers is for adding oil but I used this for adding the dye to the system. Oooops posted before adding pictures so added below | ||
| Steve Emmott Prolific User Username: steve_e Post Number: 169 Registered: 11-2018 |
Some equipment from the past but still useable. However the modern machines are now fully integrated and do a lot of the work hence many garages can do this work whereas years ago it was only certain specialist that took it on.     | ||
| Steve Emmott Prolific User Username: steve_e Post Number: 172 Registered: 11-2018 |
Here is a simplified picture of the mechanics of a typical air con system. On many cars the return gas line from evaporator will not always be seen attached to the expansion valve and there will just be a single in/out two connections as in the second picture. This schematic better explains how the stages of the air con gas process occurs through the system from the compressor and back. ie.. LP-gas to HP-vapour(hot) to HP-liquid(cooled) occurs from the compressor/condenser to the receiver drier and detail when then expanded to LP-vapour(cold) into the evaporator and back to LP-gas. No electrics in the first picture here are shown and any system will include various in line hi/lo pressure switch safety interlocks to prevent compressor clutch operating and electrical switches for the front condenser fan operation as in the second picture. This is aside from any other electrics which are also then required for the interior fan speed and flap operations which can be manual or automatic electronic temperature controlled. Certainly overall the Shadow 1 electrics are far less complicated regarding these later more sophisticated electronics which are on the Shadow 11 and newer cars.   | ||
| michael vass Grand Master Username: mikebentleyturbo2 Post Number: 546 Registered: 7-2015 |
Hi all one thing not shown (as far as I have found)is there is a stupid tiny filter in the expansion valve which blocks and causes too hi pressure on the high side and a vacuum on the low side. Mike | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 1800 Registered: 4-2009 |
Yes Michael you are so right. Also dont forget the stupid check valve inserts that are in the Spirit/Spur systems that interfere with flow. Deleting these makes the system perform better | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 1328 Registered: 2-2013 |
Omar where precisely are these valves situated and would removal of the valves create a problem with HyChill? The RR/B AC units in Shadows and Spirits, first installed in Camargues incredibly took Rolls Royce engineers eight years to develop and its perhaps trite to announce that those engineers were incredible serious and precise persons or even chaps. Unfortunately, the materials like rubber used in the servos could not have been expected to last indefineately. And probably not 30 plus years in all climes pole to pole on this planet. One should see the maintenance and repair of these systems as a challenge similar to bungee jumping down Alice's Rabbit hole and once there use all weapons available ie multimeters, the RR AC test box, and the available for free !!!!! Workshop Manuals along with commonsense but together with standard AC equipment posted above. Any in dash work and I have done decades of it ie conversions from left to right hand drive on 60s to 70s cars entails painful contortionist enjoyments that has only been surpassed by loon manufacturers engineers designing vehicles in such a way that scant regard for actual repair of the vehicle or the physical health of mechanics is self evident even to the blind. Patience, relaxed contemplation and many cups of tea will aid your efforts to put your Rolls Royce back to spec. A ten minute stab at it with expectations of permanent repair will produce certain disappointment followed by depression and maybe even rage. Suffer and enjoy. | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 1329 Registered: 2-2013 |
Graham "cost to repair" . Ahem, the precise answer to this question is the same answer as to the question "How long is a piece of string?" But more to the point, if you put it into a RR dealer 5 to 10 grand AUD should see you right but it could be more. If you put it into your local general repairer/mechanic driving it off a high cliff but jumping out before the edge may get you the same result. Thus study then proceed to repair it yourself or win lotto to pay for it! | ||
| Robert J. Sprauer Prolific User Username: wraithman Post Number: 205 Registered: 11-2017 |
Vlad...did the parts list come thru for the RR A/C test box? | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 1330 Registered: 2-2013 |
Not yet but soon | ||
| michael vass Grand Master Username: mikebentleyturbo2 Post Number: 547 Registered: 7-2015 |
Hi all the one way/service valves Omar referred to are inside the large pipe connections 5 or 6 if I remember. Mike | ||
| Nigel Coombe Experienced User Username: nigel_adelaide Post Number: 31 Registered: 10-2017 |
One common problem is the front left bonnet/hood bracket rubs a hole in the pipe from the Condensor to compressor in front of the radiator.My current Spirit showed signs of this and put a rubber heater hose section around pipe with electric ties to stop it rubbing through. Always seem to need to get them re-gassed every couple of years but lucky in Adelaide have an excellent A/C guy who does lots of RR and very reasonable . | ||
| Graham Hutton Experienced User Username: gph Post Number: 32 Registered: 1-2019 |
I am heading to Adelaide on Friday. We are meeting up with friends to do a wine tour to,Rockford and Elderton on Sunday. One day I shall do a Barossa tour in the 88 spirit currently residing in my Dads unrground garage. | ||
| Graham Hutton Frequent User Username: gph Post Number: 56 Registered: 1-2019 |
i am interested in the efficiency of the A/C, I finally settled on a car (1987) and overall im quite happy with it, I suspect i won't be dashing to the corner store to buy milk as the fuel consumption horrendous, but on the longer rides seems to be reasonably economical (for a RR) to drive. i am finding that the A/C seems to almost struggle, but it doesn't seem to be laboring, just not cooling the cabin down as quickly as i would like, and the air isn't icy cold. is there something i missing here? I'm concerned that the "recirculate" switch may be faulty and i could be getting a fair bit of warmer air from outside? (which seems counter productive) not sure how to test this though. I wonder if maybe using the A/C on "econ" is a good idea around the suburbs? i have done 45 miles all suburban and consumed 25 litres, and I have been running the A/C flat out on its coldest setting. all this is still very new to me so if i sound a little confused or confusing , i beg your indulgence. thanks | ||
| michael vass Grand Master Username: mikebentleyturbo2 Post Number: 558 Registered: 7-2015 |
5 mpg!!! There must be something drastically wrong with your car! Is it carb or fi ? Should get over 15 even in traffic. Mike | ||
| Mark Luft Prolific User Username: bentleyman1993 Post Number: 258 Registered: 10-2016 |
My A/C will freeze me out if left on the coldest setting. I think you may be just a little low on refrigerant. | ||
| Graham Hutton Frequent User Username: gph Post Number: 57 Registered: 1-2019 |
The car is EFI , I spoke to the guy who has done the servicing and he thinks it’s normal!, I may need to rethink who looks after the car from here. I probably need to speak to some local,Spirit owners for guidance to who is best to service this beast. | ||
| Roderick Waite Prolific User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 222 Registered: 1-2012 |
Hello Graham, your consumption is way too high. My '84 Spirit regularly returns more than 5km per litre on short runs with the A/c running on Low. You're getting less than 3, and efi is supposed to be more economical than carbs. I suspect your refrigerant needs replacing - that transformed the performance of mine! Won't solve the fuel problem though. The mixture has to be too rich (smoke? A smell of petrol)? No idea what needs doing on efi, but it needs to be done! | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 1394 Registered: 2-2013 |
Graham the guy who told you 5 mpg is 100% wrong and should be avoided like the Bubonic Plague! | ||
| Graham Hutton Frequent User Username: gph Post Number: 58 Registered: 1-2019 |
No smoke, there is a slight fuel smell, is there a leak? To be fair (Vladimir) he didn’t say the high fuel consumption was normal, but the A/C issue didn’t faze him. I need a good Brisbane based RR mechanic to speak to I reckon. | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 1395 Registered: 2-2013 |
Yes there is a leak. | ||
| Graham Hutton Frequent User Username: gph Post Number: 59 Registered: 1-2019 |
the A/C seems to be improving, i have done some research and am learning about the idiosyncratic nature of RR A/C | ||
| Peter Maclaren Experienced User Username: ludo Post Number: 47 Registered: 4-2009 |
Graham, I noticed recently that my Bentley Turbo R seemed to be going through an incredible ammount of fuel for the k's covered, and like you, I could smell petrol but couldn't determine where the leak was. Quite by accident one day I happended to crouch down to check tire pressures while the engine was running and to my horror saw petrol spraying out near the rear of the car. The engine was promptly turned off. I raised the rear of the car and saw that there was a slow drip from the petrol pump, but obviously when under pressure a far greater volume was being forced out. After draining the tank and removing the pump it was obvious this had been 'going on' for a while as the foam rubber around the pump body wsa perished. I finally established that the pump was leaking petrol through one of the terminal posts,( I connected a tube to the pump inlet, filled a jar with kero and connected 12v to the terminal and 'out it sprayed)'. I have since replaced the pump, renewed the filter, and now fuel consumption has been dramatically reduced. Just my experience, but it may be worth you taking a look. | ||
| Roderick Waite Prolific User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 223 Registered: 1-2012 |
Hello Graham - as Peter and Vladimir say, you have a leak. As I did. In my case the outlet hose from the pump had chafed against the clip and leaked under pressure. Engine off, no leak. Ignition on - leak! So with engine on, have a careful look - from your consumption figures the leak is substantial! | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2153 Registered: 9-2004 |
And if you have no leak and the EFI is the K Jetronic you could well have the control pressure and warm up regulator at fault. BTW, running rich tell tell after a run when exhaust is cold, wipe the inside of exhaust tail pipe with finger should not be black with soot [carbon] should be grey to white! | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 1398 Registered: 2-2013 |
And buy a fire extinguisher too! Like fast but fix the leak. | ||
| Graham Hutton Frequent User Username: gph Post Number: 60 Registered: 1-2019 |
Finally sorted everything out. I have learned a few tips from helful locals. Don’t dash to the shops every 5 minutes, the car doesn’t heat up enough and fuel gets wasted. So I did 90 miles today, and managed 20 MPG woo Hoo . Feeling more relaxed about everything now. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2156 Registered: 9-2004 |
Nice to have feedback on your problem. I have a all electric car just for short trips. Charging from own solar array. No road fund licence and quiet motoring with plenty of torque. Top speed governed to 100mph but high speed soon depletes the battery. | ||
| Graham Hutton Experienced User Username: gph Post Number: 74 Registered: 01-2019 |
The latest is that I have had the refrigerant topped up, the a/c guy reckons my “filter”? Will need replacing. Another (mechanic) in the RR club suggested a “Flex fan” ? To aid in cooling efficiency. In any event I shall continue in my quest. The A/C even on high speed isn’t causing me to be really cold. Watch this space. | ||
| Omar M. Shams Prolific User Username: omar Post Number: 1907 Registered: 04-2009 |
Dear Graham, Have you verified that the heater valve is not leaking when it is supposed to be totally shut? Thanks Omar | ||
| Robert J. Sprauer Frequent User Username: wraithman Post Number: 564 Registered: 11-2017 |
Overcharging a system can lock the compressor. The compressor has a label containing the safe amount of freon for the system. The filter is a "drier" in the left front of the engine bay. They are designed to dry the refrigerant since any amount of ambient air will contain moisture and freeze usually in the THX (expansion valve) or the POA valve.A flex fan is not needed for the system. It is rugged and does a great job. |
