| Author | Message | ||
     Graham Hutton New User Username: gph Post Number: 7 Registered: 1-2019 |
I was browsing car sales website the other day and noticed a spirit with sheep skins instead of the leather. My question is : does this auger poorly for the condition of the leather upholstery? Or would this be hiding maybe a cloth option? | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 2142 Registered: 6-2006 |
Probably best to ask the seller for photos of the seats. A must really. Totally useless fact. A few of my clients have them because they don't like the feeling of sweaty or cold leather.  | ||
| Graham Hutton New User Username: gph Post Number: 9 Registered: 1-2019 |
I would argue that leather isn’t sweaty where vinyl definitely is, moreover one would argue that skin on leather / vinyl vs clothing layer between seat and skin. I too like sheepskin seat covers. But not at the expense of handcrafted leather upholstery | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 2143 Registered: 6-2006 |
Argue all you like. . . Still best to get photos from the person selling it! Maybe this should be in chat?  | ||
| Graham Hutton New User Username: gph Post Number: 10 Registered: 1-2019 |
Fair call. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 3126 Registered: 4-2003 |
It is OK in this topic as sheepskin seat covers became more common in Australia during the 1980's largely as a consequence of the increase in window sizes due to new body shapes. The "glass house" effect resulted in leather/vinyl seats [especially those in dark colours] becoming quite hot when the car was parked in the sun. After-market sheep skin seat covers became a popular choice to get around the problem of over-heated posteriors and sweat-sticky shirt backs endemic with sitting on unprotected vinyl and leather seats. Washable sheep skin covers were available and I personally liked the comfort and feel of the sheep skin compared to the traditional vinyl and leather upholstery. | ||
| John Rowney Experienced User Username: johnrowney Post Number: 49 Registered: 2-2015 |
I have sheepskin covers on the front seat of my Bentley Mk VI Special tourer B25KL. With an open tourer in Queensland, particularly when wearing shorts, the sweat pouring out of me was unbearable. The sheepskin covers are just wonderful. I also have sheepskin covers on the front seats of my 1938 Wraith WXA68. Without air-conditioning in Queensland, driving in these old cars for long distances is rather unpleasant. In fact I did around 6500 miles in WXA68 in 2018, and to do so without sheepskin covers would have been awful. I must admit, that having sheepskin covers does not allow a custodian to forget to feed the leather beneath. I have just recently taken off the covers and fed the leather with an appropriate conditioner. I have not yet put sheepskin covers on my Corniche Convertible DRH32489, since I only drive it with the hood down when I am going on very short trips by myself or with the hood up and the air-conditioning on at full blast when the boss and friends are being driven around. I am tempted to put sheepskin covers on the Corniche, but I need to do this just before a long holiday out of the country so that "She Who Must Be Obeyed" doesn't remember a change in the appearance of the car and ask embarrassing questions regarding the cost of such a fitting. | ||
| Mark Aldridge Grand Master Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 597 Registered: 10-2008 |
Being a skinflint, I put a white bath towel over leather, pvc and nylon cloth seats in warm weather. I can the wear light coloured clothes which do not end up mucky and looking as though I have had a shower in them ! Mark | ||
| Graham Hutton Experienced User Username: gph Post Number: 12 Registered: 1-2019 |
John, I bow to your greater experience in these things. I have suspected for a while now that my (soft top) ‘67 MGB would benefit from sheepskin seat covers. I’m taking her out on Sunday morning (early) to the old cars and coffee meet at Elysium Victoria Point (bayside Brisbane) and then again that evening (after 6.00 pm) to,watch the sunset at Cleveland point, a glass of red and a ham and cheese sandwich May also be consumed that evening | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 2076 Registered: 4-2016 |
That sounds great Graham, A good evening to be had. Just be sure as Paul said, it is a must to get good and clear images of all seats in any Rolls-Royce before purchase, I have seen sheepskin covers hiding some god awful & hideous things. You have to be 100% sure. A bad interior on one of these older cars can be up, to 50% of the purchase price to rectify to a high standard. | ||
| michael vass Grand Master Username: mikebentleyturbo2 Post Number: 528 Registered: 7-2015 |
I'm sure airline pilot seats have sheepskin covers, am I right? My leather seats get unbearable in very hot weather, even with aircon working icy cold. Mike | ||
| Graham Hutton Experienced User Username: gph Post Number: 14 Registered: 1-2019 |
On the subject of leather, even after only 30 years, I’m guessing the leather needs or at least “may” need refurbishing. Does anyone have any advice to offer about this? I’m happy to look at sheep skin, but would also consider staying true and looking at replacing some of the leather. | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 2077 Registered: 4-2016 |
Hi Graham, If the car has been looked after reasonably well, there will be no leather work to replace at all. Mine from 1972, looks great, with some nice age to it but zero damage. I’d question how the rest of the car has been maintained, if the seats are in poor condition. | ||
| Robert J. Sprauer Prolific User Username: wraithman Post Number: 112 Registered: 11-2017 |
Leather can have a long service life. It is porous and therefore can be rejuvenated and at the same time sugject to dryness especially when exposed to sunlight. Also the pores collect everyday dirt and will build up over the years. It is important to clean the leather with a mild soap solution with a soft nail brush (short bristle) and damp terry cloth rag, rinsing well. The surface should not be left wet. Now the surface is open and can receive an organic leather rejuvenator. Keep applying until it no longer soaks in. Best if done in the warm summer heat or leave a small heater in the cabin. You will be amazed at the softness. You may experience color loss. The color is top coated. at this point new leather dye can be applied preferably by gun. I have completely restored leather interiors to like new condition. | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 1785 Registered: 4-2009 |
Dear Robert, I would welcome a chat with you on this topic. Is Dubai somewhere you visit from time to time? if so I would love to meet you and talk about leather restoration. It is a fascinating subject and you seem to know enough about it to teach us one or two things. Leather suffers very badly in our hot weather and no matter how hard you try - the elements always win. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2050 Registered: 9-2004 |
Carried out the above but with the whole interior removed. Some of the successful procedure shown here : http://au.rrforums.net/forum/messages/17001/25982.html?1496257327 | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 3129 Registered: 4-2003 |
Omar and Graham, 1. Leather cleaning: equine sadddle soap with clean water and a soft brush. Wipe off residues thoroughly with a clean damp microfibre cloth rinsing frequently. 2. Leather rejuvenation: A good quality lanolin-based leather rejuvenating cream which includes emu oil. I have used Oakwood Leather Conditioner with excellent results: https://www.oakwoodproducts.com/products/equine/view/oakwood-leather-conditioner/#.XFizSlwza70 The quality will be remembered long after the price is forgotten even though it doesn't have the classic Connolly leather fragrance - I see "Connolly" leather care products advertised by the usual internet sources however I have never used these later products only the original Connolly items I purchased in the UK when they were still in business. Omar - the Oakwood product will be particularly suited to your climate based on my experience here with similar sun and temperature extremes. | ||
| Steve Emmott Frequent User Username: steve_e Post Number: 55 Registered: 11-2018 |
Basically leather is 'coloured' in two different ways......dyeing or coating. Now the dye years back usually alcohol based is absorbed/soaked into the surface of the leather (albeit some companies have huge vats and just throw the whole skin in) and like Robert says leather being porous this does well for being treated with oils/creams as the alcohol based dye process actually does cause premature hardening/drying of the leather. The second process is surface 'coating' the skin which was usually a water based coating sprayed on the surface and was very flexible. (It was not micro-porous)and when dry acted like an elasticated 'speedo' swimming cap over the surface. No amount of oils or creams would penetrate through this surface it would be like putting sun screen oil on you wearing a diving suit. Most would just evaporate off inside a car leaving a film over your inner glass. That said whilst the surface coating is flexible on this type of coloured leather, stress cracks do appear in highly used areas and getting creams or oils into these areas will get absorbed down into the leather and help. The coated leather process was used by many luxury car companies and indeed my 72 Shadow is of this type. It was good for simple scuff marks as carefully done using paint thinners the coating could be gently softened and worked back into any light marks. (Please don't try this it is extremely artistic experience required). Most of the re-juvination products after market for leather are of this coating type so again if your car interior has been 're-connolised' then oils and creams will give little value to the suppleness maintenance of the leather, but again where any 'patina' cracks appear a worthy application locally will help prevent eventually leading to leather tears. Many companies market/sell their products as Leather Dye but they are not all a dye and some companies now have changed their marketing to reflect this and sell items as Leather Colourant Working before retirement for a luxury car maker and responsible for protype vehicles this included a prototype trim shop. I got to visit many leather processing companies in Europe and Africa and I was often asked by new car buyers why the cars leather interiors did not smell of 'leather' anymore and indeed such was buyers disappointment we would stitch 'leather odoured' bags underneath the seats to give off the smell. The truth and explanation of the loss of that wonderful 'leather odour' by modern leather processing techniques would only have been a big turn off. Everytime I enter my car and get that wonderful smell I also always get reminded still why it is there.  | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2052 Registered: 9-2004 |
"The second process is surface 'coating' the skin which was usually a water based coating sprayed on the surface and was very flexible. (It was not micro-porous)and when dry acted like an elasticated 'speedo' swimming cap over the surface." Cripes how thick did you apply it, big mistake! When you car leather suffers and it will, to help you reinstate the smell, use liquid leather conditioner twice a year. Some products to help you.  | ||
| Robert J. Sprauer Prolific User Username: wraithman Post Number: 113 Registered: 11-2017 |
Many new car manufacturers, especially in Asia use vat dyed leathers. If you notice older high mileage cars you do not see the base leather. Leather essentially has 2 components. The surface epidermis and the base . It is the epidermis that cracks thus exposing the base. Seat squabs benefit from rejuvenation especially in warm weather with squab rotation. If the car is parked in the sun, a towel on each squab will help the destructive rays from the leather. | ||
| Steve Emmott Frequent User Username: steve_e Post Number: 56 Registered: 11-2018 |
Patrick I fail to articulate your responses as they do not follow logically. I have surface treated more leather throughout my career including changing colours on leather for 'styling' prototypes so I think it must be the Somerset scrumpy cider that has been consumed a bit thick this year.  My car leather was partially, in some areas, re-connollised 25 years ago and still looks as good as when it was done back then. It has stood up to 15 years in the hot French South France sun. Strangely though the door cappings despite being re-laquered in 1989 did not so I have just had to have these redone. I can see from your post linked you have done your car interior and keep refering to DYE yet I would suggest you have used a water based coating and not a dye and that is quite correct it should not be applied thick. It may be semantics but a dye is something that is absorbed and impregnates the material. A coating is like a skin placed over the top..I could have used a term like a 'durex' 'french letter' or 'nodder' but I expected a more polite reference would be a speedo swimming cap which actually equally is quite a thin membrane. No need for any smell additive in an old car as the odour is released from the underside too as it cannot permutate through the treated surface coating unless it is dyed leather. As for the hide food again a waste of time on mine as the re-connollised was applied correctly and still has no concerns for splitting or cracking. Robert I have to take some issue with your comment albeit you are partially right when referring to a natural hide when it has not been 'reduced' and generally this is what you will find on the hard working areas of cars like the seat squabs and on more expensive luxury cars where the hide is supplied from animals that have been bred normally on open land to avoid any skin damage. A skin hide actually has 3 layers.... 1% of the thickness is the surface epidermis, 85% the dermis centre layer, and 14% the sub cutaneous layer. Both the epidermis layer and sub cutaneous layer are not used for the tanning process of producing leather trim, so your comment on the epidermis is quite wrong and the epidermis layer is more what would be used by furriers as it contains the hair follicles etc etc. Then the central dermis layer has two sub characteristic 'layers' referred to as upper and lower where the upper which was in contact with the epidermis layer is what still carries the specific unique animal pattern grain. However a single hide can be scythed and reduced in thickness thus creating two or three additional skin layers of useable hide. These underlayers are then processed and surface patterned and colour coated, and specifically useful where matching intricate detail components require trimming and the thick hide just would be impossible to deal with. Whilst thinner areas of the hide can often be found around the lower parts of the hide skin obtaining a balance of just how many hides are totally required to create a complete car trim is quite an art to keep manufacturing cost low. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2053 Registered: 9-2004 |
So you had your car re-connollised 25 years ago. The leather on my car had not needed any attention for 43 years. The process carried out with the colour renovator dye this woolies product is based on materials used in the original finishing of hides in the tannery and as such is compatible with the leather being restored [5 resins, micronised pigments and water emulsified cellulose lacquer] Now why do I refer to it being dye, because so far roughly 20years ago I bought two front green head rests for my biege SS2 that were missing. I changed the colour from green to biege with the proccess stated, so in my term dye is a change of colour if successful and it was! How I carried it out is on the forum somewhere. Pic of my restored Jag MK1 dash many years ago.  Let me know the how you carried out the re-laquered door caps as they should last for many more years than you state hot sun or not. Pictures will also help if you are able to post them! | ||
| Steve Emmott Frequent User Username: steve_e Post Number: 57 Registered: 11-2018 |
PatricK L...... Read what I said more clearly in my posts please I don't want to be disrespectful to a 'Grand Master' but you also need to respect not every NEW member is just a naive first time classic car owner for you to puff your chest out to with your 2000+ posts.......then you will see I stated 'parts' of my leather were restored some 25 years ago unlike yours which appeared to need a complete treatment my car has lasted 47 years in some areas and still looks good. Indeed I have done my Lotus and Ferrari over the years but again only in local areas. My RR car was chauffeur driven for the owner for its first 15 years so there was wear apparent just in the two areas where doors and seats were used by the driver and owner in the rear, whilst other areas were virtually unmarked. I dealt directly with Connolly as they supplied our leather and they provided me with a special kit matched to the original colour. My car is Catkin colour and appears fairly rare albeit it was a Jaguar/Aston Martin colour we used too but Connolly actually matched mine from a current component so I did not have to do the whole car interior. Again a bit of poor excuses over your use of the term dye from you and I suggest as I wrote in the previous post many suppliers referred to it as Dye but actually it is not and just a surface coating so you should not feel embarrased having made this mistake. Again I repeat different tanneries used various colouring methods from surface spray dye process, complete dye soaking in large vats and spray water based surface coating. The latter being the most commonly used too by aftermarket renovations. Challenge me all you like on leather I ran the engineering trim department in one of the worlds renowned companies for leather and wood interiors. I am aware of Woolies and have used them many times for classic trim parts and I assume you are refering to 'nitrocellulose water emulsified laquer' this is very good as a final coat and can give matt, satin or gloss finishes but again it is not micro-porous and rub all the snake oil you like on it, you will not penetrate through that and then the resin colour coating for the stuff to get down into the leather no matter how hard you rub. My door top cappings were done in 1989 by the previous owner just before I purchased the car so had lasted 17 years but I have no idea what they were like before. The invoice shows they were done by Coopers Crewe now PKV and a renowned albeit expensive wood restorer. Their work lasted till around 2003 before surface cracking appeared in France. My MGB burr walnut trim was also done by Coopers when the car was built in 2001. Had I still been at work I could have had the cappings done as we had our own veneering wood shop specialising in the interior woodwork. However the car was taken to our French home when I retired and it was quite soon after the very top surfaces the laquer started to crack and break up. Indeed the laquer as it was breaking up was quite dangerous as it was sharp and cut like a razor blade. I put it down to the car going from a damp British climate to a hot French climate and maybe it was just a rapid drying out process that caused it. I obtained a secondhand set as a temporary solution and stripped them and just yacht varnished them planning on having the originals shipped back to UK and restored through my old work mates. Well that took over 15 years as the ones I did are still on the car now and the originals were wrapped up and stored. However I brought them back to UK and decided after having the car re-painted to have the door cappings done too as my 2018 Xmas present. Some pictures attached..... my drivers seat squab 20 odd years on from when it was 'PROPERLY' renovated, and my just received laquered door cappings ready to fit when the weather warms up, but sorry the thread has somewhat diversified. I had the cappings done by GDK again in Crewe a family business and a lot cheaper now than Coopers/PKV. After over 15 years retired sadly and the company being sold out to TATA I have sort of lost most of my contacts so have paid to have them done. OK I could have done them myself but having just returned back from France last summer i spent on stripping the car for respray and just too much going on that I decided to pay the real experts.      | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2054 Registered: 9-2004 |
Now that is a shame, hoping that you were hands on and would show your methods as there are many ways to skin a cat with many tips as the work proceeds with the interior trimming etc.  | ||
| Larry Kavanagh Grand Master Username: shadow_11 Post Number: 329 Registered: 5-2016 |
Round 2 to Patrick on a points decision. | ||
| Steve Emmott Frequent User Username: steve_e Post Number: 58 Registered: 11-2018 |
Grow up Larry you are acting like the weak childish little boy in the gang with only 329 trying to aspire to the top and purport to show strength. Patrick L...I was 'hands on' and indeed still am but just have to be a little more selective what I do now. At my age with several classic cars and still two homes 1000 miles apart time/work/life balance has to be considered. My RR is currently in my garage with windscreen out having recently fitted an everflex roof not something I am sure many would take on. BTW I have my own industrial sewing machine and also made my own vinyl roof cover and front carpets for the RR. So with the recent house move too I have had a few things I have had to prioritise now for 2019. Last year I repainted my swimming pool and the house as well as stripping the RR out for a repaint due to paint having faded badly in France. Apart from painting the RR itself and help from a friend to refit the rear bumper I did everything myself. So again I struggle to articulate your responses and like I told you in a previous thread suggest you let this thread get back on track as I am more than happy to join in if you want to start a new thread just to soapbox your experience against mine. Frankly I really have better things in life to do though. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2055 Registered: 9-2004 |
I suggest that you should start a new thread on the removing and fitting a new Everflex roof covering, with pixs of what was found on removal and of course the repairs. Just may be able to give you some tips! Now that would be a good thing to do in ones life, something like a Stone Mason building onwards and upwards! | ||
| Steve Emmott Frequent User Username: steve_e Post Number: 59 Registered: 11-2018 |
Patrick I will gladly offer support and help in areas I am experienced in when I see anyone asking for advice or assistance on forums. I am not one that really has the time to just upload onto forums everything I do on my cars, however since the digital camera has been around at least I do have a good library of pictures of what I have done. I do admire you though for you doing this as I have read back quite a few old threads. Perhaps I will get down to Yeovil so I can pick up some of that scrumpy you produce.....I am running very short of wine at the moment. | ||
| richard george yeaman Grand Master Username: richyrich Post Number: 1045 Registered: 4-2012 |
Steve I would appreciate some pics and tips on the ever flex roof, as redoing it requires the removal and possible damage of both front and rear screens. Richard. | ||
| Jeff Young Grand Master Username: jeyjey Post Number: 391 Registered: 10-2010 |
Well, never mind who did those door cappings -- they look absolutely smashing. I had my T2 cappings redone in Dublin but the colour match was not what it could have been. Anyway, the Irish have a term called "slagging" which is taking a poke in good fun. It doesn't always translate well to other cultures: https://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/slagging-is-so-much-part-of-what-we-do-that-we-find-it-odd-when-someone-objects-26469553.html | ||
| Jeff Young Grand Master Username: jeyjey Post Number: 392 Registered: 10-2010 |
Hmm... just noticed this forum doesn't show users' locations. Larry is Irish; I live there but am a displaced Yank. | ||
| Steve Emmott Frequent User Username: steve_e Post Number: 60 Registered: 11-2018 |
Jeff I have a bit of Irish in me and a lot of Irish friends so often enjoy a poke back........or am I not allowed that as a newbie? My epidermis I think is actually a bit thicker than 1% and it will take a lot to penetrate and bother me. Now from looking at your profiles I have 3 Irish Grand Masters in a row and Patrick L who I am sure with a name like that must have some Irish in him too, so hope your not trying to set me up.  Richard I will write up a post outlining fitting the everflex from start to finish albeit I still have to fit the front screen when the weather warms up a bit. I won't distract from this thread anymore. | ||
| Robert J. Sprauer Prolific User Username: wraithman Post Number: 114 Registered: 11-2017 |
Steve. I have replaced many screens. As you know the chrome trim is installed into the gasket after the gasket is on the screen. It is very important to overlay the trim on the windscreen to insure it has the same contour because once it's in.. history. You cannot push the trim into the seal to regain the contour. It's totally explained in the manual. I use a braided nylon/dacron rope 3/16 or 1/4" to pull the seal. If you follow the workshop manual to the word you will have no problems. I also use suction cups for handling. | ||
| Larry Kavanagh Grand Master Username: shadow_11 Post Number: 330 Registered: 5-2016 |
Steve, I'm a relative newbie myself not that longevity of membership attracts any privileges or authority in my estimation. I think I have an understanding of the difference between a poke or a poke back and an insult. My poke was directed towards Patrick but if you interpreted is as a personal affront I can only emphasise that such was not my intention, I was merely attempting to add a degree of levity to a serious discussion. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 3134 Registered: 4-2003 |
Further to the Irish question - a significant part of our national ethos and humour may be attributed to the significant number of Irish immigrants that have made Australia their home. Some came here as convicts and others as free settlers. This is one reason why crack [craic] is widely understood and occasionally reciprocated on this forum.  | ||
| Chris Buckenham Frequent User Username: chris_buckenham Post Number: 60 Registered: 6-2012 |
That's right David , to be sure, to be sure , to be sure! | ||
| Steve Emmott Frequent User Username: steve_e Post Number: 62 Registered: 11-2018 |
Richard/Patrick I have started a post in idle chatter on the everflex roof Robert as Patrick L says more than one way to 'skin a cat' and both your way and the way I described ensure no chrome trim damage. The point being the decision taken to renew the rubber. I think I prefer though to wield my stanley blade on the outside rather than close to the headlining inside area. However maybe it should somehow be added into my post as an alternative. I covered the shaping of the trim in the idle reading post and assumed most would read up the workshop manual anyway. I don't quite follow the workshop manual on refitting and do always crossover my cord at the centre bottom but with no additional loop. I find the weight of the screen on the rubber is more easily overcome getting the rubber into the aperture at the bottom first. Larry K...As a gingerhead kid (family reckons it came from the Irish milkman)I was often subjected to taunts. After thumping the leader of the 'gang' who was a foot taller I soon learnt just go all in at the start for the juglar and then get left alone. It won't be the first time either I inadvertantly kick the ball at the referees testicles when I don't like his decision. I will apologise if you felt it was an insult. David if my comment 'slightly' overstepped the mark of banter then please remove that sentence from the post I do not mean to insult anyone but the Irish do refer to it as 'slagging'. Actually I feel more offended by Larry's comment in the wedding car thread it appears very 'sexist'. Geoff who follows up complimenting Larry in that post.... sorry your post here has been taken off track so now time to 'skin a rabbit' I will say if you are going for sheepskin car covers make sure they are not cheap ones or imitations as when you wear dark clothes you will end up covered in white bits......but hey I suppose they could be DYED.. As for renewing leather parts/panels it is not too difficult on the rear/front seat lower squabs as they are easily lifted out and the covers can be taken off. Some special tools are required however like Sack pliers and staples for re assembly and these are not normally in everyones toolbox but a job not too difficult for a trimming company. Many companies have been aware of adequate ventilation issues on leather and vinyl seats for years hence often you will see perforated leather or vinyl used even on old classic cars which does help. Some manufacturers including Jaguar and RR have done seats with cloth centre panels but the latest addition from late 70's is materials like Alcantara which started off as a cheaper alternative to leather and the suede finish not giving the hot sticky problem. So popular now in the automotive industry it has become more expensive than a genuine hide but as a synthetic least is animal friendly. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 3136 Registered: 4-2003 |
Steve, No problems whatsoever with the use of "slagging" on the forum; we have a similar saying "taking the mickey out of someone" or its abbreviated less polite form "taking the p*ss [urine] out of someone". | ||
| Larry Kavanagh Grand Master Username: shadow_11 Post Number: 331 Registered: 5-2016 |
David, That expression "taking the p**s" I believe originates coincidentally from the practice of collecting urine for use in the leather tanning industry in the Newcastle area of England. | ||
| Larry Kavanagh Grand Master Username: shadow_11 Post Number: 332 Registered: 5-2016 |
David, Correction: the expression that has origins in the tanning industry is "pi*s poor" which refers to the economic status of people who were paid a small sum by the tanning industry in return for pee supplied. | ||
| Steve Emmott Frequent User Username: steve_e Post Number: 66 Registered: 11-2018 |
Larry you are absolutely correct second time round. Indeed 'urine' was one of the main ingredients used in the tanning process and people would leave theirs out to be collected years back like farmers used to do with their milk cans, and Americans with petrol, back then considered a bi-product. (the petrol not the American)  Urine was actually used also on the muslin cloth of military type uniforms worn in world war 1 to soften the cloth. Indeed the other main ingredient used in the tanning process was bird/chicken/pigeon crap. Some tanneries like in Morocco still use these old methods albeit modern techniques with chemicals have taken over. Such was the foul smell of the hides due to the old tanning processes, and believe me it is as bad as when you see in the films people cover their noses when finding a dead body, the hides had to be subjected to being scented before they could be commercially used. This is where that 'wonderful' smell of leather comes from. It is not a natural smell or the tanning oils used too in the tanning process, but scents that had to be added to cover up. The problem for me years ago I visited one of these North African tanneries and they are huge and every time I smell old leather I recall the foul smell that was in the air. Such was the smell most tanneries in UK were operated 'out of town'. We still have tanneries operating in the UK and whilst some say using 'traditional techniques' it mainly refers to the use of the tree oil and oak bark...Indeed one tannery here in UK is famous here for making the leather for cricket balls....Aussie visitors not allowed (Joking) Chemicals have taken over mainly now and this is why hides no longer need scenting to disguise the foul or perhaps fowl smell. With pigeon droppings being linked just recently to deaths in UK you wonder how many people may have suffered unknowingly back then like the hat makers where mercury was used and eventually found to damage the brain..... hence the term 'mad hatters'. Years back when factory visitors walked around the trim shop you would hear them say taking a deep breath 'oh that wonderful smell of leather'......best they were never told the truth Interesting though does anyone know the origin of the term 'chicken sh1t' as few would likely have known 'p!ss poor' origins. I think I will see if google comes up with anything | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 3138 Registered: 4-2003 |
Steve, "Chicken sh*t" appears to be of American origin and refers to trivial, small-minded, ignoble matters that do not warrant particular attention or remedy. "Horse sh*t", "Bull sh*t" and "Elephant sh*t" refer to more weighty matters of increasing size and importance. Another term I heard used in my youth is "Frog sh*t" as an alternative to "Chicken sh*t" although this seems to be less-frequent than it used to be. It also seems to be confined to rural Australia and not elsewhere in the world. In the 1970's, I worked in the Alexandria/Mascot area of Sydney where a lot of traditional tanneries were located and the area was renowned for the "fragrance" of the air and the effect on international visitors travelling along O'Riordan Street to and from the airport. The worst time was a Friday afternoon when one or more of the local industries would undertake a process which resulted in a heavy oily "burnt coconut" stink that made it difficult to keep your traditional Friday business lunch where it should be. I never found out where it came from and as I type this, I can still sense the odour vividly almost 50 years later. . | ||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 2078 Registered: 4-2016 |
David, I can tell you exactly who the offender was. The main one was a place called Gearin O’Riordan. It was at 177 O’Riordan street, just down on the left hand bend just before King street heading to Kingsford Smith Airport. It was what was known as a rendering plant, where the trucks would go out all day, and bring back every single bit of waste from the butchers from all over the Sydney Metro area. Some trucks would go as far as Bathurst, as far south as Nowra, and up to Newcastle. My father started work there as a driver after WWII, my brother started there as a 15/year old apprentice mechanic, and I started there as a 15 year old apprentice also in the 70’s. My dad retired from there as an Industrial Chemist. They cooked and rendered down all the bones, fat, offal and anything else that the trucks brought back. They produced Tallow (remember ages ago I identified the tallow SG weight measuring devices) meat meal, blood and bone. There was also another offender further up O’Riordan st called Bird Brothers. They did the same. They were in the exact place where the Mercedes Benz & Rolls-Royce dealers are now. They had to stop production for 2 days in 1954 before the queens first visit to Australia. After the 2 days there was over 300 tons of festering bones, carcasses, offal and all other sorts of animals laying in the sun. Dad said fat & congeled blood was just running everywhere in the heat. I too remember the smell as if it was yeasterday. Alot of the tanneries were in Botany Rd, as I remember doing pick ups with drivers from there as well. | ||
| Larry Kavanagh Grand Master Username: shadow_11 Post Number: 333 Registered: 5-2016 |
The thought of such foul odours entering my nostrils is literally making me feel "as sick as a chocolate frog". | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 3139 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Pat, Yes - I remember both Company's well and Gearin O'Riordan would have been the main offender I referred to. I was based at 60 O'Riordan Street which originally was part of the Dorman Long storage/assembly yard for the Sydney Harbour Bridge project in the late 1920's/early 1930's and which was purchased by Australian Iron and Steel after the project was completed. A.I.&S, AWI Bullivants and Comsteel had warehouses and offices on this site up to the mid-1980's when they were closed and the site sold to developers. Again, the recollection of the odour is haunting me as I write.  . | ||
| John Kilkenny Grand Master Username: john_kilkenny Post Number: 305 Registered: 6-2005 |
Another company in Botany with a rendering tank was Davis Gelatine. I can remember going there in the late 1960's to repair a computer (a DEC PDP-8)and seeing horses heads and legs sticking up. The smell still remains in my memory. | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 2060 Registered: 5-2012 |
John I remember the PDP-8. They had one at the Uni of Birmingham in England. It was replaced by an English Electric KDF9 - a computer housed in a room the size of a gym with the power of a modern calculator - lol. We ran fortran on it. | ||
| Steve Emmott Frequent User Username: steve_e Post Number: 67 Registered: 11-2018 |
And mix all those smells together of an abattoir, chicken/pig farm and a badly kept pub mens urinal then you will be close to a tannery. Now look on the brightside..... you may now never get into your car again and look at those leather seats without that smell on your mind......ha..ha  | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 1304 Registered: 2-2013 |
I read somewhere that sheepskin covers are abrasive to the leather underneath. I have no idea if this is true. When I see a car for sale with sheep skins fitted I instantly become suspicious about the condition of the leather underneath. My Camargue was shipped from New York to Australia with a full set of sheep skin covers in the boot/trunk. The leather is 95% or better in good condition so perhaps the notion of sheep skins being abrasive is a myth. Sheep skins are super comfortable whereas leather in good condition is opulent luxury. My preference is for sitting on the leather. Then again some car collectors like to keep the protective plastic covers on vinyl seats. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 3166 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hey Vladimir - welcome back after your exile!! I think the sheepskin covers you are referring to are the "el cheapo" variety where wool tufts are bonded to a canvas backing. These would certainly be abrasive to real leather. A properly tanned and treated sheepskin should have a soft, supple and smooth skin on the underside especially if a lanolin-based leather conditioner has been applied from time to time to prevent cracking from drying out if the car spends long periods of time parked outside in full sun. P.S. Have you noticed a recent forum discussion where a new forum feature may inherit your suggestion of a section named "The Snake Pit" viewable by members only for expression of personal opinions on non RR/B topics? |
