| Author | Message | ||
     Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 891 Registered: 4-2015 |
In the years since I have last driven the Silver Spur, Castrol has discontinued their mineral oil products. There always was considerable disagreement as to whether the Castrol product distributed thru the Jaguar dealers was appropriate for RR/B application but that discussion is now moot. Apparently there are now two choices. Bentley has stepped up and provides a Bentley branded product and there is still a prior product from TRW which was for Jaguar and Citroen systems. The story always has been that the proper RR/B products have additional magic additives specifically for lubrication of the brake pumps that neither Jaguar or Citroen have and therefore do not need the additives. So....question remains...what are others using? Is the TRW product appropriate or should it be avoided? Of course while the difference in price in percentage terms may be 100%, in actual dollars it is not a deal breaker so clearly if in doubt the RR/B product is preferable, but still, is the TRW product which is available at any Jaguar supplier appropriate a)in an emergency, or b)never? . | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 3008 Registered: 4-2003 |
Christian, Check for the availablity of Citroen hydraulic mineral oil for the ID19-ID21 models - I recall this was a suitable alternative for the R-R/B Spirit derivatives. Motul used to supply a suitable oil and Total may also had an eqivalent, | ||
| Roderick Waite Prolific User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 192 Registered: 1-2012 |
Never used anything but Total LHM in my 1984 Spirit if that's appropriate - don't know the year of your Spur - and have never had any problems (at least so far!) in the 9 years I've had her. Availability may vary depending where you are, it's easy here in France, whereas I can't get the Bentley stuff at all unless I import it. | ||
| Alan Dibley Prolific User Username: alsdibley Post Number: 162 Registered: 10-2009 |
The green mineral fluid used in RR/Bs is IDENTICAL to LHM used in many Citroens. One Castrol web-ste used to say that LHM was used in Citroen, RR/B and Jaguar. There is no need for additives to lubricate the pump = it's a mineral oil, and Citroen CXs, for instance, had/have a five cylinder or seven cylinder swash-plate pum immersed in it. If you are speaking of any colour other than green, explore the Citroen forums for lots of alternatives (at a tenth of the price) from the world of aviation. LHM is still available from other makers in Europe, if I can find a name I will post it. Edit: A quick scan of Ebay found LHM+ from Carlube, Granville, Comma, Total and Mammol. Please don't start a discussion about the suitability of LHM+ versus LHM - it's all been gone over a hundred times before. The bottom line is "LHM+ is better than LHM - and it's available." Alan D. | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 896 Registered: 4-2015 |
In summary it would seem to be a case of brand marketing similar to the need for the "magic" additives in RR363 for the Shadow engines. In any event for an additional $15 per bottle, you can impress the trash collector with empty bottles that say "Bentley" on them? P.S. Edit... OMG! You mean there are TWO mineral oil products and that the "Plus" is better? I hesitate to ask why pursuant to your caution! Is this some sort of old forum wound that should not be reopened? Just curious. I suppose the "plus" has some additional magic additives that do present benefits? . | ||
| Alan Dibley Prolific User Username: alsdibley Post Number: 163 Registered: 10-2009 |
Re:- OMG! You mean there are TWO mineral oil products and that the "Plus" is better? I hesitate to ask why pursuant to your caution! Is this some sort of old forum wound that should not be reopened? Just curious. I suppose the "plus" has some additional magic additives that do present benefits? This was discussed at length on several Cit CX forums (fora?) and done to death. I use LHM or LHM+ in several CXs over many years, and in a Spirit, and had no problems that couldn't be put down to the vehicle's antiquity or my cack-handedness. It seems LHM+ was introduced by Citroen to stretch the temperature specs. but I couldn't remember where I read that. Scour the forums (fora?) for more detail. Unfortunately it seems much commercial gen has vanished with the original product. I have not looked at the websites of the manufacturers I listed above - life is too busy. Alan D. . | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2640 Registered: 6-2009 |
Take a look at the table entitled, Miscellaneous Hydraulic/Braking System Mineral Oil Based Fluids and Their Properties in the RR & Bentley Parts, Repair, Restoration & Other Resources Compilation Brian | ||
| Mark Luft Prolific User Username: bentleyman1993 Post Number: 219 Registered: 10-2016 |
Christian, do what I do. Get a bottle of LHM or LHM+ from TRW, then fill your empty Castrol bottle with the TRW product. The "Magic" chemicals will leach out of the plastic Castrol bottle and there you have it! Castrol LMH. Really, I have been doing this for more than a year. Ever since Castrol became unavailable. LHM is LHM whatever the brand. But the Bentley bottle IS IMPRESSIVE. | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 897 Registered: 4-2015 |
Thanks to all for information on alternatives. The question was not so much about suitable alternatives as much as whether there are any valid additives in the Bentley product other than the product logo and product marketing although perhaps I did not express that adequately. I suspected that the answer was "No" but simply desired validation of that theory. . | ||
| Nigel Coombe Experienced User Username: nigel_adelaide Post Number: 26 Registered: 10-2017 |
In Adelaide I buy Penrite LHM and put it into my genuine spare bottles and have several spare filler tubes and happy to share them . You can make up a bottle if you have the correct tube fitting. | ||
| Darryl Watson Frequent User Username: inox Post Number: 69 Registered: 4-2015 |
Hi, I have always used bog standard LHM in our Bentley for the last twelve years and in our Citroens (excluding C5's) for decades before that. Nothing exploded, splattered or generally misbehaved. Regards Darryl | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 2071 Registered: 6-2006 |
LHMplus and tubes are available. The tubes fit 1 litre bottles I think. £5 each and reusable. Genuine parts. Feeling blessed that RR&B are so well covered parts wise  | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 1696 Registered: 4-2009 |
where can i buy these tubes Paul? | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 2072 Registered: 6-2006 |
Bentley Dubai? Unless they really mark them up which they always seem to with all their parts. ME. | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 949 Registered: 4-2015 |
Yes. It is my understanding that while the prior bottles came with the tube and special adapter at the end of the tube attached, the new product in the grey Bentley bottle does NOT include the applicator. It is sold separately. You only need one, rather than one with each bottle. Unless you lose it, of course. In that respect the old system was preferable as each bottle came with its own tube firmly attached. . | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 1247 Registered: 2-2013 |
Christian I purchased 20 litres of Penrite LHM for about $350 AUD about a year ago and was told by Repco in Bowen Queensland that Penrite was going to discontinue making it but still had stocks left. They may still have some in stock. Part number for 20 litres is LMHP020. I will buy 205 litres of it soon if I can because eventually if and when it runs out it will be situation crazy for RR owners. | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 1248 Registered: 2-2013 |
David has mentioned Citreon ID19. Do get the Citreon oil for D series Citreons like DS21. The ID19 used an oil that was more corrosive than old brake fluid - truly wicked and nasty stuff which if dropped on paint the advice from the Citreon dealer I worked for in late 1980 was don't attempt to wipe it off because it I'll dissolve any paint you wipe it onto right back to the bare metal underneath. That fluid is not green. Do not put it into your Spur! | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 2094 Registered: 6-2006 |
RR363 is still being made and that is purely RR. LHM plus is used by many. Probably the kiss of death . Lol. | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 980 Registered: 4-2015 |
Paul... "Kiss of Death" went over my head. What do you mean? Do you say that the LHM+ product should NOT be used as it will kill (kiss of death) the brake system? or something else? Remember that this thread is about the SZ mineral oil cars not the SY brake fluid cars. The incompatibility of the two fluids is known and is not the issue originally proposed. The original issue was whether the "magic additives" are factual or marketing hype (i.e. Jaguar bottled product being inferior versus RR/B bottled product). I think that the consensus conclusion was the later (i.e. marketing)? P.S. I mentioned RR363 only to draw the similarity of the claim of its "magic additives" making it better that the homegrown substitutes (YAK) to the extent that the "magic additives" are marketing hype. But since it has been brought back up, there was another thread where I believe that Jim asserted that he was using without problem Castrol GTLMA as a RR363 substitute which I thought to be curious. Does GTLMA have the castor oil additive? My impression was that GTLMA is a Cloud era brake fluid that does not need, and therefore presumably does not have, the castor oil additive as opposed to being a Shadow era compatible brake fluid that does need the castor oil additive for pump lubrication. Sorry for the tangent... . | ||
| Nigel Coombe Experienced User Username: nigel_adelaide Post Number: 28 Registered: 10-2017 |
Penrite LHM mineral oil easy to get in Australia and perfect for Spirit and Citroen and other newer European cars using it .Only problem is that you need the old containers with the filling hoses and attachments .If you have old bottle s keep them and just top them up .I have some in Adelaide and you can buy them from Flying Spares | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 1774 Registered: 4-2009 |
Dear Christian, Paul's reference to the kiss of death is that LHM is used by many cars and therefore more likely to stay in production for a lot longer. RR363 on the other hand is only used by one type of relatively rare car.... that recipe is a kin to the grim reaper paying a visit to the RR363 providers who will no doubt one day stop making the stuff that is no longer being bought at the right price to make it commercially viable. My take on that is - bring it on!!! The sooner that happens, the sooner RR/Bentley will reveal the recipe for small scale producers to keep making the stuff. This is in RR/Bentley's interest as it will keep their heritage cars going for longer. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 2130 Registered: 6-2006 |
The kiss of death . . . That is when you refer to something as bombproof, indestructible or say it never ever goes wrong. ..... then you get that call the next day saying it's stuck somewhere. Close to sod's or MurlMurphy's law! | ||
| Robert J. Sprauer Frequent User Username: wraithman Post Number: 99 Registered: 11-2017 |
Ronnie Shaver, a so California RR tech, RROC member, holds technical seminars and has Youtube videos on Cloud, Corniche and Shadow overhaul procedures, has been using Castrol LMA for ages and says so when asked in a recent video. Just sayin... | ||
| Larry Kavanagh Grand Master Username: shadow_11 Post Number: 303 Registered: 5-2016 |
Robert, Be careful regarding brake fluid for Silver Shadows. Ronnie actually states that he uses DOT4 synthetic brake fluid which he states is the next generation to replace the old LMA. He mentions LMA for comparison purposes but doesn't actually say that he uses it. Because the DOT4 he uses is synthetic it may be OK, I know another member who has been using DOT5 in his Bentley T for a number of years and has experienced no adverse effects. When the early Silver Shadows were first produced the suppliers noted that many cars had issues with overheating hydraulic pumps so the factory developed RR363 which has better lubricating properties. I don't know what the formulation of RR363 actually is but I believe that it is DOT3 with a small % of pharmaceutical grade castor oil added and possibly some other mixing agent. Whenever I need to use anything other than RR363 in my Silver Shadow I mix DOT4 with approx. 10% pharmaceutical grade castor oil for extra lubrication and I haven't encountered any problems but you must act at your own risk. I think the main problem with discussions on brake fluid for the SY series cars is that some people get confused between fluid terminology and end up using mineral oil (intended for SZ cars) which is a disaster in a Silver Shadow/Bentley T system as it turns to sludge and gungs up the whole system when mixed with normal brake fluid. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2726 Registered: 6-2009 |
Larry, I presume you mean DOT 5.1, unless said T user did a full system purge, and even then, I have my doubts that DOT 5 (which is silicone based) would work well in a car intended for DOT 3 fluid. If it is actual DOT 5 that would be fascinating and I'd love to know where he gets it, since the stuff never really made it big in the private automotive market. (DOT 5 was developed for the military, and even they've dropped its use). You are indeed correct about the disaster that ensues when DOT fluid and HSMO are mixed. It reminds me of the gelatin around canned ham. I've been using YAK363 (90% DOT 3, 10% pharmaceutical grade castor oil) for some years now in both SRH33576 and LRK37110 without issue. If one wanted to be more conservative with the castor oil there is castor oil that's intended as lubrication in model aircraft motors, which run at insanely high speeds and temperatures when compared to an SY pump, and some are using this rather than pharmaceutical grade. Brian | ||
| Larry Kavanagh Grand Master Username: shadow_11 Post Number: 304 Registered: 5-2016 |
Hi Brian, Said T user confirmed to me that he is definitely using DOT 5 and not DOT 5.1. When he first mentioned it I quizzed him further as I assumed that he meant to say DOT 5.1 but he was adamant that he uses DOT 5. I'm not sure whether or not he purged the system beforehand but I'll make enquiries and get back to you if I can glean more information. Regards, Larry | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2032 Registered: 9-2004 |
Plenty of outlets in the UK for DOT5 and used by Harley Davidson m/bikes built in the USA !!!!! 5.1 used in my Porsche for the track. Happy new year to all. | ||
| Larry Kavanagh Grand Master Username: shadow_11 Post Number: 305 Registered: 5-2016 |
My theory based on what I've read regarding DOT 5 is that it is less hydroscopic than DOT 3, 4 or 5.1 which - on face value - is a good thing but there is a catch i.e., it does not absorb moisture as readily and as a result most of the water attracted to the hydraulic system will separate and find its way to the extremeties of the pipework and lodge in places like brake callipers. I suppose this problem could be alleviated by more frequent bleeding to let off any water but I would be concerned that the callipers or rams might become prone to rust. | ||
| Robert J. Sprauer Frequent User Username: wraithman Post Number: 100 Registered: 11-2017 |
I'm not a proponent of LMA as a sub for RR363 by any means. I have always used 363 and have mixed DOT4 with pharma grade castor at 10% when I unexpectedly run short. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2727 Registered: 6-2009 |
Everyone's got to do what they're comfortable with after having done their homework. Although I use YAK363, Ronny Shaver is very well known in the US RR collector community, and he works on more of these cars than most of us ever will (with a couple of notable exceptions). His experience is comprised of many data points. Larry, thanks for doing the additional digging. One of the problems with DOT 5 is that water sinks to the lowest points and generally sits there, creating specific rust points. Contrary to most opinion, the fact that other DOT brake fluids are hygroscopic is intended as a feature, not a bug. It prevents just this sort of thing, instead carrying small amounts of water mixed in with it, resulting in light rusting, if any, if changed at regular intervals in cars where air exchange with the fluid occurs with ease. There's a hugely long, and controversial thread, from several years ago where I actually surveyed a small sample of non-RR owners about when they last changed their brake fluid (all of which were using either DOT3 or DOT4 systems). For the vast majority of them, including myself, that answer was "never." I still do not routinely change brake fluid in my cars (other than the RRs) and know of very few mechanics of my acquaintance who ever change it unless doing some other work on the system requires it. Brian, who thinks we had ought to split this discussion off, as it's wandered from the topic of mineral oil systems | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2728 Registered: 6-2009 |
Larry, Just in case it holds any interest, said topic from late 2014: Brake Fluid Changing Customs in the USA (Primarily) Brian | ||
| Trevor Pickering Frequent User Username: commander1 Post Number: 94 Registered: 6-2012 |
I have recently changed the 2 year old fluid in my SC3. As you know the Cloud has glass fluid reservoirs and I noticed that the fluid was changing colour so decided to change it. There was obviously moisture present and was slowing turning the fluid to an emulsion! Very handy beeing able to see what was happening. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2033 Registered: 9-2004 |
" including myself, that answer was "never." I still do not routinely change brake fluid in my cars" Fatalities through the fault of brakes that can be attributed to fluid failings with testing now being a common practice. Servicing neglect will take the shirt off your back if your still alive. The later Spirit Spurs etc cars with brake modulators can have failings that cost a fortune for replacement repairs, caused in many cases for the cost of a mineral fluid change. The old saying: [do not spoil the ship for a ha'porth " halfpennysworth" of tar] or: [an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.] | ||
| Larry Kavanagh Grand Master Username: shadow_11 Post Number: 306 Registered: 5-2016 |
Since purchasing my Silver Shadow 10 years ago I have become more aware of the need for regular brake fluid changes. As a result of the experience gained on the Silver Shadow I am now more inclined to change the brake fluid on my ordinary cars whereas previously I would have been less particular about it. I also clean the pads and callipers on all my cars more often and compress the calliper pistons to ensure that everything is moving freely and apply a little copper grease to the steel rubbing parts of the pads & silicon grease to the ABS moving parts on the callipers. Whenever I bring any of my cars to the test centre I invariably get compliments on the standard of maintenance, recently I managed to score a 0% imbalance on the front axle braking on my daily runabout and only 2% imbalance on the rear axle brakes and I was rather chuffed about that. I think I've become a perfectionist geek but I derive satisfaction from keeping old cars running well even though it takes up a lot of my time. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 2131 Registered: 6-2006 |
I'm off the school of thought that it's cheaper and quicker to change fluids regularly instead of freeing out and overhauling or replacing a component! DOT brake fluid is synthetic as in it isn't a mineral / hydrocarbon based fluid. It 'looks good' from a marketing point of view so has fairly recently been added to the bottle labels. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2034 Registered: 9-2004 |
Not forgetting the hose replacements that caught me out, thinking I could tell a failing hose.....sluggish brake reading within the yearly MOT. | ||
| Mark Herbstreit Prolific User Username: mark_herbstreit Post Number: 195 Registered: 5-2005 |
I'm sure Paul is 'of' the thought and not 'off' the thought. An important distinction! | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 2132 Registered: 6-2006 |
"I'm sure Paul is 'of' the thought and not 'off' the thought. An important distinction!" Mark, That's something I do now and then just to make sure you're paying attention :D | ||
| richard george yeaman Grand Master Username: richyrich Post Number: 1042 Registered: 4-2012 |
Mark that is something I do now, I am sure Paul meant, Mark that is something I do know Only saying. LOL | ||
| richard george yeaman Grand Master Username: richyrich Post Number: 1043 Registered: 4-2012 |
Paul sorry I misinterpreted your reply to Mark, I am eating humble pie. Richard. | ||
| Larry Kavanagh Grand Master Username: shadow_11 Post Number: 311 Registered: 5-2016 |
Enjoy your Humble pie Richard but eat it in moderation! | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 1778 Registered: 4-2009 |
The Americans also call it eating crow.... Where does that expression come from? | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2040 Registered: 9-2004 |
Maybe it is cooked in mineral oil brake fluid!!!. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 3092 Registered: 4-2003 |
Quote: "Eating crow is a colloquial idiom, used in some English-speaking countries, that means humiliation by admitting having been proven wrong after taking a strong position. Crow is presumably foul-tasting in the same way that being proven wrong might be emotionally hard to swallow." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_crow "To eat humble pie, in common usage, is to face humiliation and subsequently apologize for a serious mistake. Humble pie, or umble pie, is also a term for a variety of pastries based on medieval meat pies." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humble_pie | ||
| michael vass Frequent User Username: mikebentleyturbo2 Post Number: 781 Registered: 07-2015 |
Hi All Just seen that Kubota use LHM+, thought it may be useful source out there Mike | ||
| Alan Dibley Frequent User Username: alsdibley Post Number: 369 Registered: 10-2009 |
I have just seen a reference in an earlier post here that says Citroen's hydraulic systems do not need lubrication for their pumps like a RR. Citroen's certainly do - my CX25 has a seven-piston swashplate pump providing power for brakes, suspension and steering. All other hydraulic Cits are similarly equipped. Just thought I would put the record straight. |
