| Author | Message | ||
     Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 751 Registered: 4-2003 |
Perhaps someone can help me. There are two jobs I hate with a passion. Starter motors and exhausts. I have released all the bolts and cables from my starter motor (phew, that took two hours of Houdini toil), 1987 RHD fuel injected, non-cat Turbo R HCH20037. I shall fit the brilliant new BritishStarters.com unit which arrived yesterday. I was expecting the whole job to take an hour as it did last time on an earlier car. Now the even trickier bit. How does it come out from the chassis ? It looks that if I remove the lower steering column, the starter may just come out without removing the exhaust. I would even rather remove the steering rack than remove that huge stainless steel exhaust system. Does anyone have experience with this ? I have only done it on non-Turbo cars in-situ beforehand. Many thanks, Richard. | ||
| Gordon Norris Prolific User Username: crewes_missile Post Number: 170 Registered: 2-2005 |
Richard, Sounds like one of those jobs where the first line in a manual says "With the engine removed from the vehicle..." Haven't had to do this yet and sounds like I don't want to. I too hate touching exhaust systems. For what it's worth, I've looked at mine and I agree it looks like it should squeeze out with the lower column removed...but you know cars... Good luck! GN. | ||
| Bill Coburn Grand Master Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 415 Registered: 4-2003 |
Richard I have just spoken to the gurus of gurus and he said the exhaust system has to come out - sorry! | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 755 Registered: 4-2003 |
Sorry to disappoint you, Bill. I removed the lower column and BINGO ! RT.  | ||
| Bill Coburn Grand Master Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 419 Registered: 4-2003 |
no dissappointment to me. I was trying to be helpful. My starter arrived today. The problem with your old starter is the contacts on the armture which are pretty simple and easily replaced. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 756 Registered: 4-2003 |
Well, chaps, If some bloke rings up and asks you to change his starter, tell him to sod off. Nicely of course. RT. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 757 Registered: 4-2003 |
Bill, I am sure that I can easily repair the old starter. I can keep it as a spare or sell it. I don't like leaving the car for any length of time immobile, and 300 bucks is cheap for a brand new one. The stinking job took almost 6 hours. Heavens. I change a transmission in three, converter, fluids and all. I HATE STARTERS. RT. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 758 Registered: 4-2003 |
Bill, Also I suspect the Bendix clutch is shot. So, with a suspect Bendix and the ocasional CLONK instead of cranking, that was enough for me to trash the old one for now as I rely on the car. If it failed in the middle of Germany it would be incredibly expensive to have repaired or flatbedded home. Although it sounded right, the car was slow to start, indicating slow cranking due to a slipping Bendix clutch. I changed the spark plugs a few weeks ago, but that made no difference. Now it fires up instantly with the new starter. The trouble with gear reduction starters is that you cannot detect a bad Bendix by its sound. The good old, unfairly maligned, Lucas direct drive starter gives you plenty of warning as you can hear the starter motor over-revving. RT. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 759 Registered: 4-2003 |
Now I have calmed down, here are couple of tips on Nippondenso installation. If replacing an old Nippondenso, make up an 8cm extension for the solenoid (one end male, the other female standard spade-type connectors). You will se one in the picture posted above. The BritishStarter-com unit has a slightly different socket and faces the other way from the Crewe units. A short extension is needed to reach, and you can be sure that the lead plugs in. If replacing a Lucas do the same but with an eylet at one end and a female at the other. Screw the eylet to the existing one and insulate it. Be prepared for trouble with the Lucas battery cable arrangement. I strongly recommend a new battery connection terminal on the chassis next to the starter to terminate the existing cable and the main power feed to the car. Run a short length of flexible power cable to the starter and fit it before installing. Next time I would prepare this when replacing like for like too. Even replacing the Nippondenso, the power wire is very awkward and stiff. It took me half an hour of contortions to fit it. Eliminating all but plugging the solenoid in in-situ will save you some real headaches and you can be surer of the integrity as you can't see above the starter while you work. Also, it is clearly a risk that you tighten the power onto the solenoid connection and breal it off. The starter bolts are not too difficult to remove with a 3/8" drive socket and lots of extensions, especially for the upper bolt accessed from behind the gearbox, where a universal joint at the socket is needed. 1/2" drive sockets don't really fit in the small spaces. The bolts at the front of the starter need a 3/8" wobble bar to access them properly. The lower bolt needs a long-reach socket (looks like a spark plug spanner: 15mm will do if you can't buy an inck type. This is because the earth strap bolts to a stud protruding above the very shallow main bolt head. I removed the transmission dipstick tube, but it may not be necessary. If you remove the tube on a 20,000 series car, it is bolted to the back of the head, not the firewall as on earlier cars, and is very tricky. Once removed, open up the botton of the hole in the retaining bracket so you can slide it back on downwards with the bolt already substantially in its thread. Also put a thick spacer washer under the bolt head to make the head stand proud and therefore give better access for a spanner. Lastly, on cars with rack and pinion steering, release the lower column at the rack and tie it out of the way, even if you have room to remove the starter from the chassis. That gives better access for more spanners and a torque wrench, and will save time I am sure. Phew. RT. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 763 Registered: 4-2003 |
Gordon, Quite correct. With the motor removed from the vehicle, invert the chassis and loosen the rear view mirror setscrew 1.05111 turns. Carefully place the transmission in the fuel tank cavity, secure a suitable harness between the mascot and the rear number plate, undo the three setscrews, and remove the starter motor. Reassembly is the reverse of the above procedure with the following note: use special tool UD52245 to refuel the vehicle after the transmission has been reinstalled. Remove the ignition distributor and do not start the motor until the vehicle has covered at least 10,000km of service testing. Deflate the tyres, and return the vehicle to its owner. | ||
| Gordon Norris Prolific User Username: crewes_missile Post Number: 171 Registered: 2-2005 |
Ha Ha Ha! Love it Richard!  Glad you managed it all without removing the exhaust. It's funny, I would rather strip the top end of a multivalve OHC engine and rebuild multiple Webers than fiddle with exhaust systems. GN. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 765 Registered: 4-2003 |
My own experiences. Horrible jobs: 1 Proctology (exhausts) 2 Exhausts 3 Exhausts 4 Exhausts 5 Anything rusty (mild steel exhausts) 6 Starter (S2 onwards) 7 Steering box (R-Type and earlier) 8 Vibration damper (S1 and earlier) 9 Camshaft and wheelcase 10 Front suspension compliance bush (1972+) 11 Front suspension springs and ball joints Pleasant or Thoroughly Rewarding Jobs: 1 Anything that doesn't require climbing underneath and doesn't mean working at the manifolds or below 2 Starter motor (S1 and earlier) 3 Transmission and motor rebuild, with an unlimited spares budget 4 Transmission removal and installation (not Shadows and Spirits where the exhaust must come off !!) 5 Front suspension compliant mount Any disagreements and additions ? RT. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 773 Registered: 4-2003 |
I stripped down my old Nippondenso starter today, a job taking all of 10 minutes. My suspicions were correct. The Bendix drive (acually it is a sprag clutch on these starter motors) had collapsed. I don't know how much a new sprag costs, but I seem to remember that they are pricey. Luckily I had followed my instincts and changed the starter when I did. It had never failed to start the car, but clearly it had about one useful cranking more before it would have packed up completely. The rest of the starter is perfectly OK, and the brushes are like new. I'll buy a new sprag and keep the starter as a spare. RT.   | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 458 Registered: 4-2003 |
Richard, You will have to stop using the starter motor to boost engine power when the standard turbo just isn't enough  !! (Message edited by david_gore on May 16, 2005) | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 775 Registered: 4-2003 |
Oh, now I get it. I shouldn't use the starter as a power booster for overtaking after all. I shall miss that extra 1.5 horsepower. For anyone interested, below is a shot of the disintegrated sprag cage and a sprag roller in the middle. On closer inspection, there is no wear to any parts at all. However, I have not cleaned these parts, and as seen they are very dry of lubrication. Furthermore, the roller and shaft (not shown) show discolouration due to overheating. That is probably effect rather than cause. My suspicion is that the sprag was too dry, gummed up, and slipped. The slippng may have caused overheating and destroyed the sprag cage. However, it may just have been a metal fatigue failure. For David Gore: should I send you the bits for your expert inspection ? RT.  | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 459 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Richard, No need for the parts - your diagnosis is spot on and the lack of grease suggests it was never lubricated during assembly at the factory. The worst thing I have done to a starter motor was on an AP6 slant six Valiant in the 1960's after swamping the electrics in a creek crossing back of Gloucester - just put the car in 1st gear and cranked it off the crossing with the starter motor - they made batteries with plenty of lead in those days unlike the thin plate ones made today! I think it was a Lucas starter as well!! | ||
| Gordon Norris Prolific User Username: crewes_missile Post Number: 183 Registered: 2-2005 |
David, Been there and done that too, albeit in a Mini Cooper 'S' which ain't so heavy. Actually, I also used the starter to drive it onto some ramps once when it wouldn't move and I was too lazy to jack it up one side at a time...but I was only 17 years-old or so...enough said! And Richard, I find that the extra 1.5HP from the starter is useful when passing those pesky BMW M3's...  ...(plus turn off aircon, cruise a little first to ensure intercooler is cool, when the time is right press throttle quickly to activate transient boost system, cross fingers and hope there's no speed camera's around the next bend....) GN. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 780 Registered: 4-2003 |
Once on a Scouts' outing when I was 12, we were in an HR holden and hit a flooded ford at 50 MPH. Not a Ford Falcon with too much fuel, but a flash flood on a low bridge-ford over the Murrumbidgee. With the motor dead and the car slowly washing away with water up to the door handles, my friend's dad managed to get us out using the starter as the power source. Did the job: three on the tree transmission has some advantages over automatics. RT. |
