| Author | Message | ||
     Michael a prichard Yet to post message Username: michaelp Post Number: 1 Registered: 9-2016 |
to all owners of RR & Bents 1982-. After many weeks of digesting this forum as well as the technical aspects of the ignition system, not enough has been said of late about the new NGK spark plug suitable for SZ series vehicles. Service people in Melbourne appear, sadley, to still insert the old NGK BRp5 etc. If you really want your V8 to run like a new engine, then 98 octane petrol plus a new set of NGK GR4IX. Only drawbacks the plugs currently, are not available in Australia (so NGK tell me)and they are $24 each landed. But BOY!. Do they make a difference both to the even running of the V8 and petrol consumption. If you want to change the plugs yourself, then do it according to the firing order least you should "run out of time"... mp | ||
| Nigel Coombe New User Username: nigel_adelaide Post Number: 6 Registered: 10-2017 |
I run NGK BPR4EVX in my 88 Spirit and ran the same ones in my Turbo R with great success.Also gave old ones out of my Turbo R to a friend with a Cloud 2 and he found them excellent. They were available in Adelaide at $14 each. | ||
| Maxwell Heazlewood Frequent User Username: tasbent Post Number: 86 Registered: 9-2017 |
Michael and Nigel....sadly yes, the stealeships tend to live in the past and still use wax candles for lighting!!....If it was good enough for 1942, it's good enough now!! Believe it or not there are enlightened owners out there. You can go one step further up the spark plug chain to BPR5EVIX-11 and experience the joys of using the NGK Iridium plugs....these days with modern fuel, these are the spark plugs of choice.  | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2503 Registered: 6-2009 |
One thing that does need to be added here is that the new, high tech iridium plugs are not likely to do you any more good than the conventional ones if installed in a carbed car. This observation was shared with me by several individuals who service automobiles (and at least one who services RR/Bentley) for a living. The degree of fuel-air mixture control necessary to get the most out of them, particularly with regard to extended service life, just isn't there in cars with carbs. NGK's own spark plug finder recommends BPR4ES for the SY series cars. I figure if we love NGK plugs we had ought to trust their recommendations based on the make, model year, and model of the car. The first model year where they recommend the iridium plugs for RR/Bentley is 1987. See: http://www.partcat.com/ngk None of the above says you cannot use them, though, and even I deviate from their recommendation in my SYs by using their V-Power plugs rather than the G-Power plugs. This reminds me that I need to put my set of NGK iridium plugs up for sale, since I doubt I'll ever use them in either of my SY cars. Brian | ||
| Maxwell Heazlewood Frequent User Username: tasbent Post Number: 88 Registered: 9-2017 |
Hello Brian./...I will definitely agree with you regards the use of Iridiums in carburetted engines. I think it takes later efi controlled engines to get the best out of them and justify the cost over standard plugs. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1949 Registered: 6-2006 |
Iridiums are great in carb cars if you have a problem with fouling up due to oil. Valve guide or oil coming up past the rings can foul a normal plug between annual servicing. The platinum and iridiums will usually double that time. If you only oil up one cylinder you can save money by just fitting the better plug in that one. Also they do stay cleaner on cars that never get fast road work. Remember to re-gap to 25 on points cars. | ||
| Mark Aldridge Grand Master Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 469 Registered: 10-2008 |
Have been using Platinums and Iridiums on my Crewe cars and MG's for some years now, all Carbs except the Bentley8. Vastly superior to ord copper plugs in starting, fouling and performance. My son will only fit Bosch platinums to his BMC collection and any classic car he services.He rates them better than Ngk. Currently I am trying a set of Bosch WR8DP in my 1983 Mulsanne , and so far no complaints after 10K miles. Mark | ||
| Jim Walters Prolific User Username: jim_walters Post Number: 130 Registered: 1-2014 |
My experience with platinum and iridium plugs is the same as Paul's. Following is a post I made on another RR forum a couple years ago in reply to another poster who said they will foul easier which is completely contrary to what I have experienced. I have been using iridium plugs instead of platinum in my own cars for a few years now. My daily driver Shadow starts and idles demonstrably better since I put iridium plugs in it. The post also contains some info on the use of anti seize which was also discussed in the post I was replying to. John R, I have to totally disagree with you when you say the platinum plugs are not as good in older cars because they are less able to self clean when fouled. This is completely contrary to my experience. I have owned a 1959 Berkeley Sports since 1974. It is powered by a 492cc, two stroke triple. Oil is mixed with the fuel at a very high ratio to lubricate the engine internals. For the first 10 years or so I owned it, it would foul a plug every almost time I started it. I kept several clean plugs in the door pocket for this very reason. I tried every make of plug but literally nine times out of ten one would foul on start up. When Bosch Platinum plugs became available in the mid eighties I tried a set in the Berkeley. The difference was astonishing, although I only drive it about 50 miles a year now I can't recall it ever fouling a plug since. That same set is in that car today, and yes, they were the same heat range. I bought a 75 XJ12 in the early nineties, and on cold start up after sitting awhile it would often foul a plug. Same thing, I put platinum plugs in it and it has not fouled a plug since. As far as using anti seize on plugs, this is pretty controversial on aluminum heads for the following reason. Anti seize lubricates the threads and in doing so the plugs tend to be tightened more than they should, damaging the threads in the head. The current thinking on this is to use spark plugs with nickel plated bodies and threads and torque them to the manufacturers specifications. They should always be torqued regardless. Bosch Platinums are nickel plated for its' anti corrosive properties. Tightening plugs to the correct torque value is very important to prevent damage to the cylinder head threads. If you do use anti seize on spark plug threads use it very sparingly, a very thin film on the threads only. Be careful not to get any on the tip, and perhaps torque them 20% less than specs to compensate for the lubrication. Do not use the silver colored one, use copper based anti seize. There is no good reason to replace iridium or platinum plugs at 30K miles or 5 years unless the centre electrode shows signs of erosion or they have a build up of deposits. Iridium and platinum are used for electrodes mainly to extend the life of the plug as they are a harder metal with a much higher melting point than the common steel coated copper electrode in a normal plug. This results in much less erosion of the electrode. Once the electrode erodes and the sharp edges dull, more voltage is required to fire them which as I said before, taxes the rest of the ignition system. It is a scientific fact that electrons will leave a sharp edge easier than a round surface, a round surface therefore requires more voltage to get the same intensity spark as one from a sharp edge. If you have iridium or platinum plugs, have a look at the electrodes with a magnifying glass if necessary, and if they are clean with sharp edges they are fine to use until the next service in my opinion. SRH8505 SRC18015 SRE22493 NAC-05370 www.bristolmotors.com | ||
| Maxwell Heazlewood Frequent User Username: tasbent Post Number: 90 Registered: 9-2017 |
From Jim Walters post.....>>>> There is no good reason to replace iridium or platinum plugs at 30K miles or 5 years unless the centre electrode shows signs of erosion or they have a build up of deposits. Iridium and platinum are used for electrodes mainly to extend the life of the plug as they are a harder metal with a much higher melting point than the common steel coated copper electrode in a normal plug. This results in much less erosion of the electrode. Once the electrode erodes and the sharp edges dull, more voltage is required to fire them which as I said before, taxes the rest of the ignition system. It is a scientific fact that electrons will leave a sharp edge easier than a round surface, a round surface therefore requires more voltage to get the same intensity spark as one from a sharp edge. If you have iridium or platinum plugs, have a look at the electrodes with a magnifying glass if necessary, and if they are clean with sharp edges they are fine to use until the next service in my opinion......>>>>> As an example, I recently chaged the NGK Iridiums in my 1998 XJ8 Jaguar which has covered 215,000klm and these plugs have been in there for 110,000klm. The factory says they have a service life of 100,000klm. My observations were that overall the plugs were still in serviceable condition, even though the gap had widened from the 44 thou. to 72 though over this period. Not like old style plugs, you cannot file an Iridium tip to regain a sharp edge and they had definitely out lasted three sets of ordinary plugs. My personal preference is NGK over any other brand as their manufacturing is superior. I have used iridiums since their inception some 21 years ago in everything from Moto Guzzis, Harley Davidsons, Rovers, BMW's Jaguars and Bentleys and wouldn't use anything else. | ||
| Maxwell Heazlewood Frequent User Username: tasbent Post Number: 91 Registered: 9-2017 |
FRom Jim's post.....>>>>> As far as using anti seize on plugs, this is pretty controversial on aluminum heads for the following reason. Anti seize lubricates the threads and in doing so the plugs tend to be tightened more than they should, damaging the threads in the head. The current thinking on this is to use spark plugs with nickel plated bodies and threads and torque them to the manufacturers specifications. They should always be torqued regardless. Bosch Platinums are nickel plated for its' anti corrosive properties. Tightening plugs to the correct torque value is very important to prevent damage to the cylinder head threads. If you do use anti seize on spark plug threads use it very sparingly, a very thin film on the threads only. Be careful not to get any on the tip, and perhaps torque them 20% less than specs to compensate for the lubrication. Do not use the silver colored one, use copper based anti seize.....>>>>>> Jaguar since 1998 have always stipulated the use of Nickel Ant-seize on plug threads in alloy heads and through years of experience with both bikes and cars go along with that. Whether modern plugs have plated threads or not is immaterial as to how they are used. The correct application of any anti seize is how you go about it. The system i have used for the last 11 years is as jaguar states:...."Take a small dab of Nickel ant-seize on the end of an artists brush and apply to 180 degrees of the threads behind centre electrode...no more" Yes, the plugs must always be tightened with a torque wrench....I have mine set at 18-20Nm I use the same practice on all our vehicles ranging from a lowly Hyundai Excel 1.5 ltr which has covered 253,000klm, a 2003 Peugeot 307 XSE 2.0 ltr which has covered 180,000klm, 1998 Jaguar XJ8 4.0 ltr which has covered 215,000klm and 1991 SZ Bentley Eight 6.75 ltr which has covered only 32,000klm. I have never had to deal with a stripped plug hole thread and they have always been easy to remove. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1614 Registered: 9-2004 |
"Jaguar since 1998 have always stipulated the use of Nickel Ant-seize on plug threads in alloy heads" Another case of what is written in the manuals being out of date, things move on, oils being a good case. All NGK Spark Plugs now [NGK started plating in Dec 1999] are manufactured with a special trivalent Zinc-chromate shell plating that is designed to prevent both corrosion and seizure to the cylinder head; Thus eliminating the need for any thread compounds or lubricants. IMO applying anti-seize to the threads of spark plugs that have a metal plating can give a false torque, it can stretch and fatigue the threads of the spark plugs, causing a much higher probability that the plug will break during installation or in some cases upon removal. As for the plug gaps running anything over 65-70 thou IMO this will put strain on coil packs and is often the cause of coil failure. | ||
| Maxwell Heazlewood Frequent User Username: tasbent Post Number: 92 Registered: 9-2017 |
Yes Patrick I'm perfectly aware of all this, heard it a million times before. I continue to do what works for me and have never had a problem.....works for me ;o)) | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1618 Registered: 9-2004 |
Often think about any excess anti seize vapor trapped and exposed to the coil pack from heat. We know that the plugs can have an effect called Corona discharge but the plugs are stained with no adverse problems. | ||
| Maxwell Heazlewood Frequent User Username: tasbent Post Number: 95 Registered: 9-2017 |
Patrick....the use of copper ease or similar is not reccomened because it's messier and doesn't handle the heat as well as Nickel ant-seize. You don'have any messy problems if used sparingly in the method i have stated. Corona stains are normal for practically all ignition systems. I always use di-electric grease smeared around the end of the plug boot with a cotton bud. This will reduce the stain and also prevents the boot from sticking to the ceramic of the plug. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2505 Registered: 6-2009 |
Max wrote, in part: "the use of copper ease or similar is not reccomended because it's messier and doesn't handle the heat as well as Nickel anti-seize." Interesting, because the advice I have received, and the products marketed in the USA, precisely "flip-flop" in terms of when to use copper anti-seize. All high-heat applications go for copper while lower ones go for nickel. I'm with you about using anti-seize on spark plugs, though. Not that I think the dielectric grease would hurt, but I have yet to have a boot stick to a plug. In the vast majority of cases these days I've dropped dielectric grease for a very thin coating of electrically conductive grease, but your application would still be better served with dielectric grease. I've treated the connections on both ends of the new plug wire set referred to elsewhere with Sanchem NoOxID A-Special. I've become sold on using this, particularly for non-plated connections. I'm also with you on the "what works for me" rule, and that "rule" applies to everyone. There is more than one road leading to Rome. Brian | ||
| Mark Aldridge Grand Master Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 470 Registered: 10-2008 |
I was always warned that copper grease was to be avoided near aluminium , due to corrosion reaction. Any views on this from practice. Mark | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2506 Registered: 6-2009 |
Mark, The stuff I'm using is Permatex Copper Anti-Seize Lubricant. You can find all the technical and recommended usage documents there, but the tag line on the page itself reads, "Spark plug threads installed in aluminum, exhaust manifold bolts, engine bolts, oxygen sensors, knock sensors, thermostat housing bolts, and fuel filter fittings." Manufacturers are very conservative about recommended applications as they do not want liability for damage. I can't speak for other copper-based products, but this one states it's OK and, so far, it has been. I also retract my prior assertion about nickel anti-seize, as I was conflating it with aluminum anti-seize. The nickel stuff can withstand even higher temperatures than copper or aluminum anti-seize, but it's overkill and more expensive. Based on what's at the Permatex website it appears that any of these types could be safely used for spark plug threads. Also, as a general comment, if one is actually paying attention to how tightly one torques virtually any connection I have yet to encounter one where the use of anti-seize causes thread failure. Torque figures are created with "perfect" and perfectly clean threads knowing that over the course of years that dirt can come into play, etc. Going over by a slight amount does not cause catastrophic failure. Most thread damage I've encountered is the direct result of "gorilla-cizing" when tightening things down and going for torque that far, far exceeds that which is recommended or necessary in a given application. Brian | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 2722 Registered: 4-2003 |
Brian, Re the Aluminium/Copper and Aluminium/Nickel galvanic corrosion susceptibility; whilst Aluminium is anodic (+ve) to both Copper and Nickel [which are cathodic (-ve) and accordingly will be attacked if the conditions are right], there are other factors which influence the rate and extent of corrosion in the presence of a suitable electrolyte. The two most important factors are: 1. Relative surface areas of both metals exposed to a common pool of electrolyte:" a) large Aluminium/small Copper/Nickel; low risk of corrosion. b) small Aluminium/large Copper/Nickel; high risk of corrosion]. 2. Presence, temperature and electrical conductivity of an electrolyte covering the two metals; a) no electrolyte/no corrosion. b) occasional wet/dry exposure to electrolyte subject to the role of Factor 1 above; some corrosion of varying degree. c) continuous wet exposure subject to the role of Factor 1 above; corrosion of varying severity depending on composition and temperature of the electrolyte. Now if we specifically apply these criteria to spark plug threads; these are rarely, if ever, exposed to a liquid electrolyte so galvanic corrosion may be discounted. The next form of corrosion to be considered is gaseous corrosion, typically oxidation but also degradation association with other gaseous compounds present in the working environment. In the case of spark plugs in an aluminium cylinder head, I would expect oxidation to be the major risk and as all the metals involved are not in the high-risk category for oxidation, this may be discounted as a problem. Based on the above, I cannot see any reason to avoid the use of Copper and/or Nickel based anti-seize compounds on spark plug threads. However, if we are considering the use of anti-seize on components in engine coolant systems, the situation changes significantly due to the above considerations. | ||
| Mark Aldridge Grand Master Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 471 Registered: 10-2008 |
Thanks Brian and David, I can see the position re sparkplugs, but I guess using copper grease on Alloy wheel hubs is not good practice, although common in the UK and I have seen a lump hammer used to release them from the hub. I have always used graphite on spark plug with success. Mark | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1620 Registered: 9-2004 |
We are talking NGK, the following is of interest. NGK spark plugs feature what is known as trivalent plating. This silver-or-chrome colored finish on the threads is designed to provide corrosion resistance against moisture and chemicals. The coating also acts as a release agent during spark plug removal. NGK spark plugs are installed at the factory dry, without the use of anti-seize. NGK tech support has received a number of tech calls from installers who have over-tightened spark plugs because of the use of anti-seize. Anti-seize compound can act as a lubricant altering torque values up to 20 percent, increasing the risk of spark plug thread breakage. | ||
| Mark Aldridge Grand Master Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 472 Registered: 10-2008 |
Patrick, How accurate is a torque wrench when used on a U/J or wobble bar to access Rolls V8 plugs ? I tend to use gentle hand tight on a stubby ratchet. Mark | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1623 Registered: 9-2004 |
Mark, I find using a long 1/4 drive bar with torque wrench I find Ok but with the LPG it is more of a fiddle to line up the n/s rear plug. A stubby ratchet hand tight will be ok with the NGK plated plugs with no anti seize of any kind, be much like a torque set at 15lb-ft IMO. . | ||
| michael vass Grand Master Username: mikebentleyturbo2 Post Number: 398 Registered: 7-2015 |
Hi so let me see if I've got this right in my injection turbo I should run bpr5's as they run colder and will last longer than bpr4's which run hotter to burn off sooty deposits from carb'd cars? Mike | ||
| Maxwell Heazlewood Frequent User Username: tasbent Post Number: 99 Registered: 9-2017 |
Michael....the correct plug for turbos from 1988 through to 1994 is NGK BPR5EIX-11 gapped at 40 thou. What year and model is your car? | ||
| michael vass Grand Master Username: mikebentleyturbo2 Post Number: 400 Registered: 7-2015 |
Hi maxwell I fitted BKR5EVX , for the low milage I do I didn't think the metals more exotic than platinum were worth it. Should I gap these at 40 thou? Cheers Mike | ||
| Maxwell Heazlewood Prolific User Username: tasbent Post Number: 101 Registered: 9-2017 |
Greetings Mike, Either will be fine, they're the same heat range, it's just playing with numbers as to plug types. They should be gapped at 40 thou., or 1.1mm, using a wire gap gauge for accuracy. | ||
| Nigel Coombe Experienced User Username: nigel_adelaide Post Number: 24 Registered: 10-2017 |
Thanks Maxwell will follow your instructions on plugs and setting for my 89 Spirit and have never used anti seize.The advice I have had about tightness is just never over tight which I follow and never have trouble removing old plugs. |
