| Author | Message | ||
     Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 532 Registered: 4-2003 |
Robert W, Contrary to rumour and common belief , SZ accumulator spheres are in fact rechargeable, as members of the RROC Inc have determined in the USA. The cap on the top unscrews to reveal the charging point, and apparently Citroen dealers can charge them for a song. After all, they had to be charged after welding them up in the first place. Unlike Shadow accumulator spheres, as stated they are welded up and not rebuildable. They are curiously the same shape and size as those of some Citroens. Say no more. This leads to low prices for genuine replacements. They are rather cheap, and I consider that recharging them would be throwing good time and money after bad. SZ sphere diaphrams are quite superior to Silver Shadow ones, and any gas loss suggests that they are finished. As a guide, from the UK I pay less than £30 each for the two main system spheres, so recharging is hardly worth the bother. The two rear gas spring spheres are £40 each. They are rather easy to change too: use a strap-type oil filter remover. I bought a chain wrench for the purpose as described in the manuals, but have never needed it. SZ spheres are particularly useful as the valve body has a system depressurising bleed valve which vents the pressure internally without fluid loss. I know of a few guys in the USA who have a spare set of spheres. They regas them every four years or so and swap them out. As an aside, for any new purchase, assuming that the service records are not detailed and just a stamped book, I recommend to all to do as I did without diagnosis, and immediately change: All four accumulator spheres Fan belts Water pump (best from Flying Dutchman in the USA, http://www.fdrbp.com/ Thermostat Transmission oil and filter Antifreeze Fuel filter Oh, and brace yourself for a steering rack overhaul within a year or so. RT. See the charge point cover. It comes off unmarked with a wrap of copper strip and a pair of multigrips. There are a number of manufacturers of spheres for these cars which supply Crewe and Citroen. The main differences are the precharged pressures which are set for each OEMs application, but the hardware is often the same.  | ||
| bob uk Unregistered guest Posted From: 80.4.224.5 |
A Citreon specalist told me that he does sometimes do RR spheres. The equipment he uses has a thread that he screws the shperes into --- just to hold the sphere steady while charging it. They can be reconditioned. They are cut open the diaphragm is replaced and they are welded back together again. All done on a special machine. I had a Citroen CX. To recharge the spheres( front ) he charged £10 ( 1999). One of my spheres was knackered so he sold me a recon one at £25. He fitted them for me for a further £10 -- 5mins work. Total was £45 quid and very reasonable. The CX was very Dan Dare in style and I really liked the car but the bulid quality was appalling My door trims buckled and the windows fell off the runners. Just the tip of the iceberg. The dodgy Citroen electrics make Lucas into prince charming. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 533 Registered: 4-2003 |
Thanks, Bob, So you could rebuild them too !! The machine to do it sounds like a miniature version of the ones used to open up a torque converter, replace the sprag, secure the vanes and reweld it all up. RT. PS I have quite a few teenage memories from a friend's dad's new CX2200 in Canberra. Nice car, incredible ride while the spheres lasted, astonishing speed and brakes. Pity that the metallic paint fell off in 3" flakes after a year in Australian sunshine. Imagine, when it was just 3 years old it had already been resprayed and we were forced into tooling around with its spheres ourselves. The aircon was almost powerful enough to cool a biscuit tin in late autumn. But, oh that superb deerhide interior. | ||
| Glynn Frequent User Username: glynn Post Number: 14 Registered: 5-2004 |
Can the rear suspension spheres on a Spirit be changed just by simply unscrewing them (with out any further dismantling) from in the boot ? How do you know when they Need changing. Thanks | ||
| Robert Wort Prolific User Username: robert_wort Post Number: 76 Registered: 12-2004 |
Many thanks Richard and Bob. Nice to hear some good news about maintainance and prices and I appreciate the picture Richard. I've checked the steering rack and there appears to be no leaks or any signs of misbehaviour at the moment, but I will heed your warning and keep a watchful eye on it. | ||
| Bill Coburn Grand Master Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 321 Registered: 4-2003 |
Glynn. I think this is a Rolls-Royce special. The first indication is the car appears to be riding very hard ( owners have been known to let the tires down to overcome this). The simple test is to get a knee onto the rear bumper and bounce the car. If the speheres are depleted pushing down you will hit a firm stop with a thud. These spheres are incidentally bigger than the brake ones. They are simply screwed out in the boot and you don't need to remove the mounting block which for some reason the Factory recommends. To grip them I use a chain wrench put Richard uses an oil filter wrench. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 535 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Glynn, For some odd reason, the manuals say you must remove the assembly and replace the spheres on a bench. That means opening the whole system and replacing several o-rings (maybe the reason for the recommendation is to force their renewal), but there are unnecessary risks induced by this in my opinion. Last time, on my Turbo R, I unscrewed the spheres without removing much other than the tools, the jack, the safety triangle, the first aid kit and all the rubbish in the drug-dealer stash compartment. (be fair: by stash, I figuratively mean the 50 litre void above the fuel tank where the tools are located and hidden by the carpeted barrier). That all took more time to take in and out than the sphere change itself. The tests for bad gas spring spheres are well documented in the manuals, but the symptoms are shocking ride and huge dental bills. | ||
| Larry Halpert Prolific User Username: larry_halpert Post Number: 42 Registered: 9-2003 |
Just to be clear,...there is no bleeding or depressurizing of the system needed at all? Any seal replacement between the sphere & where the sphere screws in? Also, I've been using my '89 spur for about 2 1/2 years now & haven't replaced the thermostat & water pump. I see no problems, and the temp guage generally stays at about 1/4" up the dial & at most 1/2" on really hot days. What symptoms would I see that goes wrong with the water pump other than leaking? Same with the thermostat (except for overheating, or taking too long to reach operating temp) My antifreeze is orange, but I'm not sure if it is GM (Dexcool?) or Japanese (which is supposed to be different) The reason I looked into my water valve (the previous post topic) was my insufficient heat/defrost. Both hoses going into the water valve are sort of hot, and when it comes out of the heater core, the hose is not hot at all. I've backflushed the heater core to be sure it wasn't clogged. Any thoughts? Larry tbird@consultant.com | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 536 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Larry, 1. There is a hex head screw which, when turned anticlockwise, vents all the system pressure by opening the high pressure circuit to the reservoir. Opening this is a precaution when removing spheres regardless of whether you think the system is unpressurised or not. As the venting is internal, there is no fluid loss. See the screw, item no. 2, in the diagram. This diagram is for all turbos and later Silver Spirits. Earlier naturally aspirated cars have them on the other side of the crankcase, A-bank, in a slightly different orientation. The parts and methods are identical in each case.  After fitting the new spheres, close the screws and run the motor for a bit. Stop and open the vent for a few seconds to bleed the valve body, then close it again. Job done, as usually no air gets into the rest of the system. A tip: when finshed all that, bleed the system at the pressure switches by loosening the fluid line a little for a few seconds. On most cars these are under the windscreen washer container on the right hand valence. These points collect air and are very difficult to bleed by the book. 2. Always replace the accumulator sealing washer, GMF1225. They are flat and vastly superior to the Silver Shadow O-rings and, unlike on a Shadow, will outlast the sphere itself. I keep a spare pair in the glovebox. They are the same for the front and rear sphere pairs. 3. Thermostats are good for 5 years maximum. I replaced mine before Christmas, and it was only three years old. Bill Coburn showed me one with the fusible links melted out last week. That car was running dangerously cold. My symptoms were: guess what ? No heating. My temperature gauge was reading only a little lower than normal. If the coolant is too cold, the heater tap will not open. Even if it were to open, the temperature would be too cold to warm the heater matrix. A thermostat which sticks open is arguably more dangerous to the motor than one stuck shut. Cold running damages pistons. Cal West always says that these cars are only as good as their last thermostat. If you don't know how old it is, or if your heater doesn't work, replace the thermostat immediately. 4. Water pimps give no warning whatsoever on Shadows onwards before they come a gusher. Not even one warning drop of coolant will appear beforehand (I know this first hand from our T-Series). When they leak, they dump all the coolant within a few seconds without warning, usually on the highway. You certainly cannot drive the car at all, so its a flatbed recovery job. Water pumps seem to last about 12 years, so replace it every 8 (not mileage dependent). This is all because the seal is a carbon disc mating with the housing at the point of sealing the moving parts, with a neoprene bellows to seal the stationary side. When the bellows goes, it splits from end to end without warning and you are stranded. If you don’t know how old the pump is, replace it immediately. The firm Flying Dutchman in the USA offers rebuilt water pumps with conventional gland seals. They may not ultimately last so long, but will give a year’s warning in the form of drips or a slow leak before they become undriveable. It’s worth considering and they are cheaper too. I’ll try one next time. 5. If you are in any doubt about the antifreeze, replace it. If you don’t know when it was last changed, do it immediately. Never mix brands or types of antifreeze as it can destroy the anticorrosion properties and lead to disaster. RT. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 537 Registered: 4-2003 |
For completeness, the full legend to the previous diagram is: 1. High pressure inlet from pump 2. Bleed screw No. 1 system 3. Low pressure return to reservoir 4. High pressure inlet from pump 5. High pressure outlet to lower distribution valve (and to one suspension strut on early cars except turbos) 6. Bleed screw No. 2 system 7. Low pressure return to reservoir 8. Accumulator No. 2 system 9. Accumulator No. 1 system 10. High pressure outlet to upper distribution valve and suspension strut/s (to one strut on early cars, or to both struts on turbos and later cars) | ||
| Larry Halpert Prolific User Username: larry_halpert Post Number: 43 Registered: 9-2003 |
Thanks Richard, I will get started with the thermostat. On the accumulators, I was also asking the same question about the rear suspension spheres where the technique seems easier than the book says, hence my questions on bleeding/depressurising. Thanks, Larry tbird@consultant.com | ||
| Robert Wort Prolific User Username: robert_wort Post Number: 77 Registered: 12-2004 |
Thank you too, Richard. This information is invaluable. Rob | ||
| Glynn Frequent User Username: glynn Post Number: 16 Registered: 5-2004 |
Richard & Bill, First, many thanks for your help here. Now, I notice that the price for replacement spheres vary enornmously, do they differ in quality ?. Next, Is there any quick fixes to improve the ride of the front suspension ? I look forward to reading replys. Incedently, as soon as I feel that "any" new sphere will do the trick I will order them. Regards Glynn | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 541 Registered: 4-2003 |
Given that the spheres are made essentially for Citroen by a few different manufacturers, I would not personally hesitate to use a brand new one from any source. There are so few applications for such spheres that it is unlikely that there is an inferior source (usual caveats apply of course). Naturally the size, shape and thread would all have to be identical to the originals. Spheres are a dead simple piece of kit despite all the hullabaloo made about them. As long as they are ISO/TüV etc approved, you can't really go wrong. You would probably be buying them from an independent Crewe specialist (Flying Spares/Introcar/Beare/Montagues etc) or Broughtons/Jack Barclay and the like, and can be reasonably sure that none of them would dare to sell you an inferior sphere anyhow. What differs is the precharge pressure required for each application. For the main spheres, the sphere precharge pressure should be nominally 75 Bar. Coincidentally or not, that is the same as on most Citroens. You can test it very easily in-situ with a gauge. The pressure in these spheres is not at all critical as it only affects the stored hydraulic energy capacity (ie number of brake applications and time until the system pressure is exhausted). It does not affect the system operating pressure, as this is controlled by the accumulator valve body. Crewe give a minimum serviceable figure as low as 30 Bar for front spheres. Lazily, I never bother testing them, and just replace them if in any doubt that they are sufficiently charged. The rear spheres, which are the gas springs and control height and shock damping, should nominally be precharged to 16 Bar, and this is Crewe-specific. This pressure is far more critical. Again testing is easy, and they should read 11-18 Bar. With anything less than 5 Bar, the ride will be shocking. A new sphere should be clearly marked with its pressure. See the main sphere at the start of this thread: it is marked "Rolls-Royce 75 Bar". As for front-end ride, assuming that the shock absorbers are in good shape, there's not much you can do. Of course, you can lower the tyre pressure, but that thick antiroll bar does hold the ride firm. Softer Shadow/Spirit 235.70x15 tyres will physically fit your wider rims perfectly and are the same outside diameter, but may be illegal depending on your state's design rules. There are many Shadow and Spirit owners out there eager to swap front antiroll bars with you and pay you a few hundred dollars for the trouble, but that's a bit extreme. It would also upset the balance, and you would be advised to change the rear antiroll bar too to stop rear-end lightness. I would be very surprised if anyone decided to go this route ! Once the rear spheres are in order, you may find that the all-round ride has improved enormously anyhow. I would call the ride on my Turbo R smooth but sportingly taut: spot on for these cars. At no time could it be described as being harsh. Handling and ride did not perceptibly change when I fitted 255.55x17 Michelins in place of the 255.65x15 Avons. The big change was a complete absence of vibration at any speed at last. | ||
| Glynn Frequent User Username: glynn Post Number: 17 Registered: 5-2004 |
Would Citreon Zantia spheres do, (FOT THE REAR OF SPIRIT) they are charged to 30bar. Thanks Glynn | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 542 Registered: 4-2003 |
If they are physically the same, they would be suitable, but only if you have the shop reduce the charge pressure to 16-18 Bar. Anything above 25 Bar will give you negligible rebound travel before the gas spring bottoms (tops?) out, again leading to very bad ride. The size is important as it determines the volume of free gas to handle the suspension travel, as is the gas pressure charge. RT. | ||
| Glynn Frequent User Username: glynn Post Number: 18 Registered: 5-2004 |
Richard Took your advise and ordered a pair of rear spheres from Flying Spares. Cant wait to try them out. Cheers Glynn | ||
| Larry Halpert Prolific User Username: larry_halpert Post Number: 46 Registered: 9-2003 |
Well, in response to a couple of posts above in this thread, I've changed my thermostat & heater water tap, and now have hot heat while idling, or going slow. When speeding up, you can feel the heat coming out of the facia begin to get cooler. When you slow down, it gets warm again. This also happens when holding the engine at a fast idle. Larry | ||
| Adrian Jump Unregistered guest Posted From: 213.249.162.132 |
As an aside to Richards thread of 27th January concerning stamping of service books, if you have no additional invoicing stating what was done simply contact Crewe customer service dept. Assuming the service was performed by an authorised dealer the information is forwarded to Crewe. They can give you a print out of what was done if you ask them. I contacted Crewe for missing paperwork for my Turbo R and they sent back a detailed service history printout FOC. Only works for the later chassis numbers though i.e. SZ style chassis numbers not Shadows. Adrian U.K. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Glynn Frequent User Username: glynn Post Number: 18 Registered: 5-2004 |
Adrian, Do you have an e mail address or postal address etc for crewe, I would like to see if they can send me some history for my Spirit. Thanks lynn | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 617 Registered: 4-2003 |
Glynn, Crewe won't help you. They'll send you packing. Crewe and Goodwood don't really like the owners of cars from the old Company, and pay them lip service only. As a non-member, the RREC will sell you build sheets: a must for all owners. You can order by email and pay by credit cars, around £30 I recall. The Records Archivist is Mrs Barbara Westlake, who can be contacted at barbarawestlake@rrec.org.uk or fax +44 (0)1327 811797. RT. |
