| Author | Message | ||
     Carl Jones Experienced User Username: carl888 Post Number: 19 Registered: 4-2013 |
Wondering if anyone has managed to compare the Avon Turbosteel 70 235/70VR-15 with the Michelin XVS 235/70HR-15 on the same vehicle? My car was delivered with the Avons, and therefore this would be my preference. Additionally, being V rated to me at least is a plus along with a TWI of 160 vs 200 on the Michelin. Thanks for any information. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1935 Registered: 6-2009 |
Carl, Beware TWI and UTQG ratings for a couple of reasons. They are assigned by the manufacturers, not an independent third party, and they rate the treadwear within that manufacturer's own product lines. So a 200 TWI would be expected to last longer than a 100 TWI from the same manufacturer, but as soon as you start looking at different manufacturers the comparison value can be utterly worthless. There was a good, and brief, article in the November 2015 issue of Consumer Reports entitled, The Truth About Tire Treadwear, that gives a good overview of the pitfalls of trying to use these numbers as a meaningful comparison across different tire manufacturers. As far as tire choices you should match those to the weight of the car and your own personal driving style. It does absolutely no good to have V speed rated tires versus H speed rated tires if you do not engage in sustained (as in not just for passing) driving speeds of 149 MPH/240 KPH instead of 130 MPH/210 KPH. In reality, most of us don't drive these cars at a sustained driving speed anywhere near to even an S or T speed rating, and the load index is much more important than the speed rating provided the speed rating is sufficient for the way you actually drive in practice. A good synopsis on all these points can be found on this Tire Technical Information Page at tirerack.com. Brian | ||
| Jonas TRACHSEL Frequent User Username: jonas_trachsel Post Number: 89 Registered: 2-2005 |
The Avon Turbo Steel gets mixed critics at best. This is a tyre of a 40 years old construction. It is often found to be out-of-round and therefore hard to properly balance. As it is the only tyre in this dimension with a V rating available in many countries you have no other choice, especially in countries, where the authorities require a speed rated tyre to match the potential top speed of your car, irrespective of the speed limits in that country, Switzerland being such an example. If you have the choice of Michelin XVS this is a much better tyre. | ||
| Carl Jones Experienced User Username: carl888 Post Number: 22 Registered: 4-2013 |
Brian thank you for the TWI clarification, I was unaware that this rating was applied by the manufacturer. Whilst I don't specifically require a "V" rating, if I had the choice, I would take a "V" over a "H" assuming the same tyre. Jonas, thank you for your comments, we must also remember that the XVS is also old, being released in 1972. However, I know the sidewall construction of this tyre has changed over its life so one would hope with modern compounds and construction it's better than in 1972. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1937 Registered: 6-2009 |
Carl, You're quite welcome. For me, living in a country with speed limits that I tend to respect within +/- 10%, speed ratings on any tire that fits these cars are irrelevant. I really cannot conceive of a situation where anyone would be tooling along at 130 MPH/210 KPH [H speed rating] as a sustained driving speed. I doubt that most who drive Turbo R's even come close to that speed where the law would permit it. Before load ratings became explicitly required speed ratings were their closest proxy, since tires that can handle sustained high speeds and the possess handling characteristics necessary for same tend to be able to bear more weight and have greater sidewall stability. Now that load ratings and speed ratings are both explicit, anything that meets or exceeds your typical "driving limits" should be more than sufficient. One of the reasons I stopped buying tires at Costco here in the USA is that they would not fit tires with a speed rating less than the tire put on the car as OEM. I had a 1999 Jaguar XJ8L that came with V-rated tires, and since it was not ever used as a "track car" a V-rating in the USA is gross overkill. I got tires I liked much better, that had an equal load rating but much better treadwear, at a lower speed rating still well above speeds the car was ever driven at. A great deal of what gets put on by manufacturers has to do with marketing, not fitness to intended purpose. Brian | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 676 Registered: 4-2009 |
Dear Brian, There are two serious rebels on this forum for whom this statement may not apply: I doubt that most who drive Turbo R's even come close to that speed where the law would permit it. one of these guys lives in Australia and likes Vodka and the other chap lives in Dubai. I bet those two guys probably tried to get to those speeds at some stage in their lives. Honestly if it was up to me I would have them both do detention or write 200 lines....... Renegades....... | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1274 Registered: 5-2012 |
Hi Omar If you attempt to max out a Turbo R in the US you are likely to find yourself in Jail. They do enforce speed limits here. Something I found out to my cost whilst pootling along a deserted interstate in Nebraska at 95 mph. One of the reasons I so like the Silver Shadow is there is no danger of accidentally finding you are doing 100mph, as is the case in any reasonably high performance car. One thing that amuses me in the UK is there seems to be an unofficial speed limit of 95 mph. Last time I was there, about 7 years ago it was still the case. I just slotted into the fast line and followed the traffic, at 95 mph. I don't know whether this is still the case but I did come across this spoof article a while ago that seems to suggest it is. http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/britain-has-a-motorway-speed-limit-claims-minister-201201064738 Geoff | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 2070 Registered: 4-2003 |
"Dear Brian, There are two serious rebels on this forum for whom this statement may not apply: " Include me as one who would if he could in the Northern Territory where open road speed limits have been removed recently after it was found the fatality rate increased on roads after the speed limits were imposed. Bentley took their Continental GT to the NT with former racing driver John Bowe to see what it could achieve - read and watch the following and weep [note JB didn't use a race helmet - surely a sign of his confidence in the safety of the car]......... http://pursuingwo.com/bentley-flat-out-in-the-desert/ My fastest speed was 150mph in my 351 V8 Falcon on the Hay plains in outback NSW before outright speed limits were introduced - not timed but based on tachometer readings as the car was geared for 25mph/1000rpm in 4th gear and the hydraulic lifters "pumped up" at 6000rpm which was achieved during the run. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1940 Registered: 6-2009 |
Omar, ". . . probably tried to get to those speeds at some stage in their lives," could likely apply to many a participant, past and present, on these forums. My point was that I know very few who lived past "that stage in their lives" [usually read teens though 20s] who continue to have this compulsion on public roads. Even if they have this compulsion, do they ever indulge it? Even if they indulge it, are they really going to be driving more than 130 MPH in all likelihood. One should choose tires based upon the maximum speed that one's actual driving actions can be reasonably predicted to produce. More than your max, when that max is in excess of 100 MPH with a mere S speed rating, seems like a tire "pissing contest." (Or it does to me, anyway. To each his own.) I guess I have been "spoiled for speed" by living in a country where the penalties for driving well in excess of the posted limits has some very undesirable results. Also, having been a passenger in a car once that was tooling along at approximately 100 MPH on a two-lane road was one time too many. Brian | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1029 Registered: 9-2004 |
To those who relate to the speed ratings and load ratings and think a lower spec tyre is ok. What about the power traction through the tyre. All part of the testing and recomendation of OME for the life of the vehicle. A proven fact that a fast driver is a more alert driver, more so with a RR. | ||
| anton de bloch Unregistered guest |
good mornin. Something to bear in mind should you have major, or even minor accident. Your friendly insurance assesor may question the fact that you have installed non standard parts. It may be advisable to obtain written acceptance from your insurers that they will accept your individual choice of tires. Kind regards. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1943 Registered: 6-2009 |
Patrick, I doubt, very, very much that any contemporary tire that has load rating high enough for our cars and speed rating enough for a given driver's driving are not vastly superior to the ones that were on my cars (1978 and 1979) on issue from the factory. No one knows precisely why a given manufacturer used a given tire. Richard Treacy has written on the RROC US forums that Michelin refused to be the OEM supplier to Crewe because of the ridiculously low inflation pressures they specified. Not everything a manufacturer does has anything to do with safety or fitness to purpose. Good enough to avoid court is good enough. Here's a copy of that post, including the comment he was replying to in a discussion on the SY series cars and tires: ------------------------------------------ quote: Just a reminder that we are using tire pressures of 24 and 28 psi, some of the other tires are not designed to run at low pressures Just a few notes. Having been with these cars since the end of the 1960's with many miles (a million or so), perhaps I may comment on tyre pressures? When my father first had his 1954 R-Type as a family car, he was dismayed at the incredibly low tyre pressures prescribed. Crewe wanted you to crash in comfort it seemed. He immediately upped the pressures to 32/35 on crossplies. He did the same on the T-Series, but 34/38 on Avon radials and with other brands later (235.70R15 101H and 235.70R15 102V). I run my Turbo R at 38/42 (255.55ZR17 102W). As an aside, I spoke to a Michelin representative a few years ago, and asked why Michelin was not the preferred tyre source for Crewe. He told me very bluntly that they would not supply to any Company recommending such ridiculously dangerous low pressures in the tyres for their cars. RT. 1954 B174UM, 1972 SBH13247, 1987 SCBZSOTO9HCH20037 ------------------------------------------ How someone elects to drive is absolutely their own choice and comes with its own potential consequences. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Anton, You are absolutely correct if you live in a country where an insurance adjuster might be inclined to look at this closely. They do not here in the USA other than determining that the tires were not unsafe due to condition (e.g. driving on bald tires or with compromised sidewalls) or completely the wrong fitment in some significant way. It's been fascinating to me during my time on these forums to see how much more intrusive both insurance practices and safety inspection practices are in some venues compared with those in which I have lived and where I live now (all within the USA) +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ In the final analysis, each person has to take into account factors pertinent to their situations and what they believe they can know about the tires they intend to fit in light of the original fitment. I keep all of my cars long enough that in most cases whatever the original fitment had been has long ago ceased to be produced during the functional life of the car. Then you have to fit something else, and the data exists to make an intelligent choice of alternative. Brian | ||
| Carl Jones Experienced User Username: carl888 Post Number: 26 Registered: 4-2013 |
Well, that opened up a few keyboards! Not having driven my car on either tyre, I'm still leaning towards the Avon Turbo Steel. Oddly, I have a set of 235/70-15 XVS here in shop currently, I'm about to fit them to a Mercedes-Benz 600. Be interesting to see how they go on that car, which is not too dissimilar to a SZ in weight. | ||
| Carl Jones Experienced User Username: carl888 Post Number: 27 Registered: 4-2013 |
Re: Insurance. In Australia at least, the speed rating is of no consequence. I do find this a little odd, as some parts of the Northern Territory have no speed limits. However, the load rating is and your car is effectively unroadworthy should the load rating of the tyre fall below that of what is placarded on the vehicle (Even the tyre placard being present is a roadworthy issue). However, I do not know of any insurance claim that has been denied for this reason. | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 680 Registered: 4-2009 |
Mercedes 600? as in 100 series? if so - please let us have a photo. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1947 Registered: 6-2009 |
As in the car favored by dictators and despots everywhere?! Yes, indeed, a photo would be welcome. Those cars were something else, that's for sure. Idler chatter is the perfect place for a few beauty shots once the tires have been replaced. | ||
| Brian Carson Experienced User Username: brian_carson Post Number: 28 Registered: 7-2009 |
Are there alternatives in Australia to the Avon? I am about to get a set fitted to my Mulsanne S and I am interested to know what is best...the Avon dont seem to have a good reputation. | ||
| Brian Crump Prolific User Username: brian_crump Post Number: 142 Registered: 2-2007 |
Brian, I am currently using Maxxis MA-1 on the Spirit. Size is 225/75/R15. S speed rating (180kph) and weight rating of 102. The slightly different rolling diameter does not show up on the sat-nav so it must be pretty close. The advantage is that this tyre is readily available and much cheaper than the Avon. The Maxxis is slightly noisier on harsh bitumen but has a crisper turn into a corner. I run them at 33 lbs per sq inch and that seems to give good results. Regards, Brian | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 692 Registered: 4-2009 |
I run my Wraith II on Hankook Optimos 235 70 15 at 35 psi and they are great tyres. Silent and smooth. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1959 Registered: 6-2009 |
I run Hankook Optimo H724s on both my SW-II and my Buick Roadmaster Estate Wagon and love them. I have Kumho Solus KR21s on the SS-II and TA-11s on my Sedan de Ville (which are blackwalls). The TA-11s are a more "sporting" tire and are available in 235/70R15 103T, which would be a great choice for a Bentley. | ||
| Brian Crump Prolific User Username: brian_crump Post Number: 143 Registered: 2-2007 |
Unfortunately the Hankook and Kumho tyres are rarely available in Australia in that size - when they are it is usually in the form of an SUV tyre with a block tread that is quite unsuitable for a Spirit/Spur. Regards, Brian | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1961 Registered: 6-2009 |
Mr. Crump (used only for clarity's sake), It's interesting that multi-national manufacturers that sell sizes that are really commonly used don't seem to ship them to all the markets they would likely sell in as a matter of course. For my amusement I decided to try to find 235/70R15 and 235/75R15 (as I've fitted both, and both really have worked just fine) on Australian Online Tyre sellers and 235/70 are quite rare in car tires and 235/75 not far behind. Hercules was one of the brands I did see and I know a couple of people who've fitted those here in the USA. Then there is a brand called Goodride which means absolutely nothing on this side of the pond. Tire prices seem to be significantly higher for you, too, even taking the exchange rate into account. If you happen to be able to find a "brick and mortar" Kumho dealer who has the TA-11s I would recommend those unless you actually intend to drive at sustained speeds above their speed rating. Brian | ||
| Carl Jones Experienced User Username: carl888 Post Number: 28 Registered: 4-2013 |
Omar, yes, the M100 series 600. I did speak to the owner, however he politely declined the chance to post some images of his car. However, I did take some pictures of the tyres, if anyone cares to see. In Australia, the 235/70-15 Avon Turbo Steel and Michelin XVS are supported by local suppliers. Although I cannot comment on the Maxxis/Hankook option having not compared them on the same car with anything else. I would not fit these to my vehicle without a test. My car was delivered with new Hankooks however I will change them when I have completed the work, I will report if any differences. My experiences with these brands in the past has revealed a much harder compound compared to the factory fitments and poor performance as they age. I fitted a few Bridgestone SF237 tyres to some Silver Shadows around 10 years back, they were revelatory compared to usual hard and cracked cross plies that came off! I notice however that tyre appears to be discontinued. | ||
| Edward Mckinley Experienced User Username: ed_mckinley Post Number: 23 Registered: 2-2013 |
I'm quite happy with my set of Kumho Solus KR21 which I got from diamondback with a 1" whitewall added for my 89 corniche |
