| Author | Message | ||
     Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 441 Registered: 4-2003 |
Pat, You mentioned wheel balance, so here's a new thread rather than mix it up. With Avon tyres (Turbo R until 2002, and years ago on the T-Series before we switched to Michelin and then Bridgestone), the only way I have ever had success is having the wheels balanced on the car with a special wheel balancing rig. The conventional machines gave appalling results. That also meant you had to mark the wheels and hubs before maintenance. With other brands of tyres, balancing has been totally successful off the car on a conventional balancing machine, and the tyres don't need rebalancing over their lives. I have Michelin 17" on my Turbo R. I had them balanced once when new and they have been perfectly smooth at all speeds for over two years and 30,000km. My old Avon CR27 255.55x15s were good for 10,000km max. between on-car balances. Then the wobble at 120 km/h drove me nuts. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Prolific User Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 68 Registered: 9-2004 |
Richard pleased that you have not taken the the wheel balancing lightly. With the large wheels and limited rack dampening, It is my veiw that the wheels can only be balanced by first doing them on a off the car computor balancer carried out dynamicly on the inner and outer planes. This cancels out any vibrations due to the trueness of the wheel tyre and posible imbalance of tyre. Confirmed by the always wieght added. Now it is my opinion that the advances of steering geometry and linkage the on the car balancer cannot do the dynamic balancing so accurate. However the on the car balance can show up further faults and can fine tune the static imbalance. this is confimed by the position of wieghts and how much. So by doing both methods the slight imbalance loading that is present but not detected at the steering wheel is in my opinion responsable for the comfirmed leaks in the centre tube seals. As i have mentioned the racks have been ok after replacement. This procedure means the wheels tyres cannot be swopped about the car. | ||
| whunter Prolific User Username: whunter Post Number: 89 Registered: 10-2003 |
On car balance: #1. When done properly, is more accurate. #2. Dynamically balances the brake rotor/hub wheel/cover assembly. #3. No other balance is required or desirable. Finding a properly trained tyre mechanic is a problem. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Prolific User Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 76 Registered: 9-2004 |
Whunter,first to deal with your statement;On the car when done properly is more accurate,it is not sorry. It is only accurate with static ie rotating mass disc rotor hub cap wheel and tyre which affects wheel bounce. It is not 100% accurate with dynamic wobble. As i have said the dynamic is responsable for confirmed centre tube leaks on racks. This cofirms the need to carry out the off car balancing first doing the dynamic computed with the static imbalance. Second your statement; Dynamicaly on the car balancing balances the rotor disc etc,it is not dynamicly accurate unfortunatly it just confirms run out and slight imbalance with disc. Run out is caused by incorrect fitment or not useing maufactures original equipment discs or damaged hub. Thats another story probably not in the manual. Third.You say; No other balancer is is desirable. I put it strongly that the off car balancer used first with the on the car balancer used secondly to show faults and fine tune the static imbalance is the correct way for the above type of vehicles. As for finding properly trained tyre mechanic, i am sure they are it is just not a common way to do balancing as stated above. On the car has now been proved satisfactory for the more most modern vehicles. | ||
| Robert Chapman Grand Master Username: shadow Post Number: 112 Registered: 5-2003 |
whunter, Of course you are absolutely correct,the rest is, what can I say but RUBBISH. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Prolific User Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 77 Registered: 9-2004 |
Ah ha at last, Robert Chapman i sence you have another explanation to the problem!!! Back to the other Topic!!! | ||
| Robert Chapman Grand Master Username: shadow Post Number: 115 Registered: 5-2003 |
Patrick Lockyer, whunter is a well respected ,qualified motor engineer,obviously with many years of product knowlege.Why do you ,a relative newcomer to R-R presume to lecture him and everyone else on how wrong they are and how you know best. You dogmatically preach in the most obnoxious manner and become rude and abusive to anyone that dares to hold a differing opinion. Your posts have absolutely nothing to do with helping people, they are simply designed to big note yourself and satisfy your ego. You never answer a direct question you simply reply with abuse,and I regret that I have on occasion been dragged down to your level. You have purposely trawled the forum to contradict anything I said or agreed with,putting up any contrived theory .Then going on to brough beat everyone with it untill they give up in abject frustration and you then claim you were correct all along! Your Idea of a technical debate is to merely reply RUBBISH. You have made uncheched outrageous professional alligations against me,that may yet be defamation. Well I don't need it ,you can have it all to yourself,I will not put myself in a position to be costantly ambushed on this forum any longer, by the likes of you. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Prolific User Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 84 Registered: 9-2004 |
Robert i respect every one,it is only when as you can observe by your manner with your postings from the start that i will return with the same tone to you. This is a public forumn and we all have our methods to air in a polite manner. If it helps others then yipeeeee! If it is a disaster then try another method you cannot be correct all the time! Remember this grand mark is to a great many folk a cherrished hobby to be pampered,worked on with all the help and expierence they can have including myself. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Prolific User Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 86 Registered: 9-2004 |
Ref posting 11/20/04. The last bit should read. OFF THE CAR HAS NOW BEEN PROVED SATISFACTORY FOR THE MORE MOST MODERN VEHICLES. Off makes all the diference sorry. More haste less speed. | ||
| John Dare Unregistered guest Posted From: 144.138.194.163 |
I have various makes and models of motor vehicles, all of which respond to normal "off" the car wheel/tire balancing, EXCEPT my "Porsche" 911 (a MODERN car) these cars being notoriously sensitive to wheel imbalance. Along with most other club (Porsche) members, I, and others ( some of whom enter their cars in competition) have traditionally had their wheels balanced by Australias largest and nationally respected, tire retailer (incl. fit and balance) who uses TWO different "ON" car balancing machines. I have witnessed the procedure many times. One machine used (on car) in the first instance, followed by what they loosely call, their "fine balancer". ONLY this metheod provides absolutely vibration free driving at all speeds. These are the FACTS. Addendum; the veracity of the forgoing information is subject to endorsement by our U.K based, Technical Directorate (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Prolific User Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 87 Registered: 9-2004 |
J.G.Dare. Of confirmed horrible letter fame. Well that is a load of rubbish. Written in reply to my purposely incorrect wording "on" the car wheel balancer, Should be "off"the car wheel balancer. Two on the car wheelbalancing procedures to balance a wheel on a modern car. Multilink suspension that sure takes the biscuit. As we are dealing with SS11 Spirit spur etc i suggest that you read the above postings. As For a balanced Porsche 911 they just seem to go off in a direction as they please,not of course like a well balanced old 944. Maybe your 911 has picked up some cr-p on its travel. Of course the wheels that is! | ||
| John Dare Unregistered guest Posted From: 144.138.194.56 |
Patrick. On 22/11 you corrected your previous post stating that you meant to day.. "OFF the car has now been proved satisfactory for the most more modern vehicles". Without probing WHO has "proven" this (your) claim, my post stated that not only I, but most other 911 owners in this city, use a prominent and respected facility which routinely uses 2 "ON" car balancers, these being the ONLY (proven) way to successfully balance the wheels on a car, still made today, 40 years after its inception. I tend to ignore, as do most people, the defunct and orphaned, one time "entry level", 944 model, the abysmal resale values now reflecting their true worth. But then I suppose that is why some people own them. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Prolific User Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 93 Registered: 9-2004 |
J.G.Dare. I know the diection of where my cars go with precise steering geometry and foolproof balancing techniques. As for the pure quietness and excellance of the Rolls Royces and the 944 you sure must try them. but of course not mine. Oh what you miss in your life. And now for the Glenfiddich Yipeeeeeeeee! (Message edited by david_gore on November 24, 2004) | ||
| John Dare Unregistered guest Posted From: 144.138.194.72 |
Thank you Patrick. Your tireless contributions are an inspiration to all and are doubtless accepted for what they are. In respect of issues such as IMBALANCE;NUTS etc., I suspect that most people will reserve their personal views on such issues. I know that I have. (Message edited by david_gore on November 24, 2004) (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Prolific User Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 96 Registered: 9-2004 |
J.G. Dare. Remember this topic is for the hopeful remidy of the failing seals. Rectified by the correct balancing procedure of wheels stated above. As for your yet again total rubbish,that is all it is. (Message edited by david_gore on November 25, 2004) | ||
| whunter Prolific User Username: whunter Post Number: 90 Registered: 10-2003 |
Hello Everyone. The topic is wheel balancing, not steering leaks. Note: If the on car balancer was built in the last five years with newest technologies, is calibrated, and has a competent operator, it is more accurate. The antique on car balance machines where only good for static balance, after dynamic balance. Modern units combine static and dynamic balance. I do not have time to argue current engineering standards; Refer to: SAE topic documentation. With current technologies; it is a waste of time and money to dual balance wheels, if the new equipment is near you. Edit: Run out is caused by incorrect fitment, incorrect part, incorrect balance, damaged hub, warped rotors, damaged or loose bearings, bad tyres or damaged rims. You may choose dual balance, if the equipment in your area is old or you have difficult balance problems. Note: Most off car balancers are not very good if you go over 70 MPH (113 KPH)... | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 103 Registered: 9-2004 |
Whunter sorry it is indeed w/b. sorry to to disagree with you. Infact the way i see it is the other practice apart from what i stated on a RR shadow,Spur etc will balance out the problem[short term] not find it. Dynamic vibrations will be there detected or not sooner or later with the failings of the racks RR Shadow 11 Spurs Etc. The method i stated with off the car first then on the car and the position and differential of wieght added or taken away is not the normal practice but a must confirmed by the variations and faults found. | ||
| whunter Prolific User Username: whunter Post Number: 91 Registered: 10-2003 |
Patrick Lockyer. Again; the topic is wheel balance, not steering. The Rolls-Royce and Bentley, Shadow, Spur, etc, will balance out. By the definition of wheel balance, the problem is found and fixed by correct balance. Dynamic vibrations will NOT be there with correct wheel balance; unless you drive beyond the speed the tyre or balancer was rated for. Off car tyre balancers are speed rated 0-70 MPH in most cases, older machines where 0-60 MPH. Your contention that dual balance is the only possible answer; causes great concern. I urge you to go back and do more research on wheel balance theory, wheel balance machines, wheel cover balance, tyre quality and engineering specification, proper research should only take a few years. The most common faults are: #1. Untrained tyre installer. #2. Tyre balance machine out of calibration. #3. Tyre defect or damaged rims #4. Incorrect fitment. #5. Incorrect part, tyre or rim. #6. Incorrect balance = sloppy job. #7. Damaged hub or warped rotors. #8. Damaged or loose bearings. #9. Wheel cover out of balance. #10. Driver going too fast. #11. Use of inner tubes. #12. Patches or hole plugs, tyre not rebalanced. #13. Failure to balance tyres EVERY YEAR or 15000 miles, whichever comes first. Tyres begin to flat spot after one month setting idle, the longer they set with vehicle weight, the worse it will be. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 105 Registered: 9-2004 |
Whunter,That was a complete void amount of technical content with regard to the procedure of balancing a Shadow with old or new w/b machines on or off the car,or both as i have stated the correct way above. It may in fact take you many more years to catch me up! As for the flat spots,pump up tyres and warm tyres before brisk speeds. | ||
| Robert Chapman Grand Master Username: shadow Post Number: 119 Registered: 5-2003 |
Hi Whunter, Well thats you put in your place,please refrain from offering any further advice or opinion until you have caught-up! and this may take some time as dementia is a very slow degenerative condition. The only method of acceleration is by drinking copious amounts of Scotch malt whisky. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 107 Registered: 9-2004 |
Robert Chapman, Just the reply i would expect from a book worm with no practical experience,but pleased to see you are following the topics with interest. | ||
| whunter Grand Master Username: whunter Post Number: 103 Registered: 10-2003 |
Science and technology are not cast in stone. If you take my statements as insult, that is your failure. Bluster and balderdash do not qualify as technical information. Flat spot tires are junk, replace them. You can balance them forever; it will not change the distortion. The simple answer is supporting vehicle with stands. Attention: Robert Chapman I prefer ice cold beer, thrice per year. Where I belong is under the bonnet of quality automobiles. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 108 Registered: 9-2004 |
Whunter,if wheels are balanced correctly and flat spots are caused by a vehicle left standing up to two months afterwards,the flat spots will be removed by my above comment to you. If whowever the wheels are rebalanced to try and rid the flat spot,once the flat spot comes out the wheel will be static and dynamicly out of balance. New or old on or off w/balancers but with my practice for Shadows of course. If the car is left for longer peiods you are quite correct the car should be put on axle stands. | ||
| William H. Trovinger II Grand Master Username: bill_trovinger Post Number: 173 Registered: 8-2003 |
Patrick; I have stayed out of these word bashes to date as I feel the real benefit to this site is the exchange of ideas. However, now I must interject. Please point me to any (accepted) site on this World Wide Web that will back your claim that a flat spot on a tyre can be corrected, short of replacing the tyre! I look forward to hearing the address, Bill | ||
| Bill Coburn Grand Master Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 284 Registered: 4-2003 |
Calmly he approached the desk and meekly asked 'what is a flat spot sir!!!" I am running cross ply Avons on my S2 and after they have been sitting for more than a day the tyres have obviously developed flat spots judging by the almost erotic vibration that emanates from the wheels. Ten miles on and the vibration ceases presumably because the tyre casings have warmed up and the flat spots have assumed their designed position relative to the rest of the tyre. Just recently I returned to its rightful owner a Phantom VI which is fitted with Dunlop Forte cross-ply tyres. Leave those monsters sitting on the ground for a few days and boy do you feel those flat spots - but they also go with use. There is a flat spot on one of the rear tyres on the Phantom however that will not go and which makes the wheel very dificult to balance. The tyre pundits believe that this is a failure in the tyre carcass so it will have to be replaced. Then there was the owner a few years back who insisted that perfectly serviceable Bridgestones be replaced with the iconic Avons prescribed for the Silver Shadow. Driving home he had occasion to lock the wheels solid for quite a distance on very rough bitumen which planed off a good 1/4" of rubber on all four tyres. Now THEY were flat spots and it was with some joy we witnessed a second set being installed shortly after. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 109 Registered: 9-2004 |
Thank you Bill,you have a way with words. Far more pofessional than myself. Regarding the flat spots that render the tyre useless,one only has to see the effect on the suspension steering of F1 cars after the locking up of a wheel. Regarding the rear tyres if the carcuss is failing it can be good practice to inflate while stood to 50lbs. | ||
| Robert Chapman Grand Master Username: shadow Post Number: 120 Registered: 5-2003 |
Hi Whunter, You have a great selection of quality cars in the US to get your head under. I have recently had the oportunity to perform some extensive work on a 1934 Cord.It looks a bit out of place amongst all the R-R and B but a change is as good as a rest and I have found it to be a very interesting and advanced car for its year. Reading up(book worm as I am)I have also become interested in the ACD story and plan to visit the museum. Bill Coburn has just covered CV joints in the T1 topics and coincidently mentioned REZZEPA joints,the very same as fitted to this car and now in many bits on my bench.(Would you like some pictures BBC). | ||
| Bill Coburn Grand Master Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 285 Registered: 4-2003 |
Yes pliss Bob. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 110 Registered: 9-2004 |
Robert,yes you are very lucky to be working on one. I too have worked many years ago,the model was the 810 Beverly if my memory is correct. The brakes were inboard to releave the strain on drive shaft universals. The the early shafts had the 4 ball Rzeppa joints that leaked grease,later the bendix joint was more successful. I also remember the little gear change lever on the column that controled the Bendix electro vacum preselector unit. It was a long way before the Shadow with its unit constructed body. I think lancia was first before Citreon in 1922. Oh well back to the topic w/b on Rolls Royce and Bentleys. Had a strange problem the other day However we tried to balance a wheel it was impossible on our fine tuneing technics,thought both machine had got damp,rain rain here,any way it turned out to be the customer having a slow punture and on a trip some time ago put airasol sealant in the tyre forgetting to mention it to us. That was a goo inside,that meant a new tyre. | ||
| William H. Trovinger II Grand Master Username: bill_trovinger Post Number: 174 Registered: 8-2003 |
Bill C. Thank you for pointing out that flat spots created by locked wheels cannot be corrected and the same holds true to flat spots caused by cupping. Anyone with a true off road vehicle (not highway SUVs) has found this out. Once you wear material off (a spot) no amount of pressure will compensate for the loss. This is the problem I had with Mr. Lockyer’s first post on the matter. Sorry Pat I did not catch your qualification in the second post that this cure related to storage only, must have been that second Glenlivet affecting the eyesight again. I think it should also be noted for people that are caring for older cars that original bias-ply tyres will not correct even when the flat spot was created by storage. I prefaced this with “original” as I am not certain if improvements have been made to compounds used in new replacement bias-ply’s or not. Regards, Bill | ||
| Bill Coburn Grand Master Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 286 Registered: 4-2003 |
Thank you Bill T. Sorry to ask but what is cupping? | ||
| John Dare Unregistered guest Posted From: 144.134.147.40 |
Not being an engineer,I frequently rely upon opinions from professionals,asking (not unreasonably) that they declare their qualifications in order that their credibility be established. In this case, I feel bound to accept the clearly presented proposition advanced by Mr.Hunter, who I understand is a qualified (certified)"ASE"(U.S) Master Mechanic. To date, Mr. Lockyer continues to ignore, if not defy,invitations to declare HIS formal Automotive engineering (or even simple "repair") qualifications, which (in his opinion) render him capable of seriously disputing the informed opinions as offered by QUALIFIED PROFESSIONALS.The most recent invitation to Mr.Lockyer currently appears under the "Cut oil consumption" thread (Silver Shadow) and at the time of this posting, continues to remain UNANSWERED. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| William H. Trovinger II Grand Master Username: bill_trovinger Post Number: 175 Registered: 8-2003 |
Bill; Cupping is a term used here (States) to refer to uneven tyre wear that causes spots in the center of the tread pattern to be more worn then adjacent areas on the outside of the tread. Makes the worst noise and vibration you can imagine. Not an uncommon problem on Jeeps (CJ/Wrangler & Old style Cherokees) as their suspension is very loose for off-roading. I am sure there is another term you have for this type of wear. Best regards, Bill | ||
| whunter Grand Master Username: whunter Post Number: 104 Registered: 10-2003 |
Hello John Dare Send me an e-mail and I will forward study material to you directly. You will enjoy learning the theory, even if you never use it for work as I do. asemastermechanic@juno.com | ||
| John Dare Unregistered guest Posted From: 144.138.194.140 |
Hello again Robert Chapman. My apologies for this belated response to your post of 28/11( I am still awaiting registration etc.) re the rare "Cord" now in your shop, its noble presence perhaps being as distinctive as the 6 cyl."Bristols" Ive seen you working on in the past. My curiosity caused me to research basic info.on "Cords", so I accessed that great information highway (the Internet) and lo and behold, there it ALL was, with ready references to the 810 Beverly model (what a suprise!) AND even discussion about drive shafts etc. SUDDENLY it all had a familiar "ring", in fact you could almost say the composition (text/grammar etc.), "struck a ChORD" with me, as I noted the remarkable SIMILARITY with THAT which I had only JUST read (moments earlier!)right HERE under THIS very same THREAD!. Even Beverly had been spelled correctly, sans the third (final)"e". OH, joy and wonder, for now ALL one need do is "surf the net" for 15 mins and you can become an expert/"authority" on anything and everything; well almost everything from Wheel balancing to "Cords", or dare I suggest, maybe even "Bristols" too!. Nevertheless, I suppose it is more expedient (and easier) than obtaining formal qualifications (Diploma/Degree etc) from a university,institute or other recognized centre of higher learning. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| John Dare Unregistered guest Posted From: 144.138.194.240 |
Thank you Whunter. I will communicate shortly and file whatever you send me after I have digested it as best I can, as it may serve well at some time in the future. In due course, I will seek and be grateful for your (unofficial) professional opinion on the technical merits (as advanced by the opposing parties) relating to an automotive matter (involving a famous and well known make of car!) now before our courts. As you might appreciate, the matter cannot be discussed at present, however I will perhaps "e-mail" you at the appropriate time in order to invite your comments on the issues that were at question. Thank you for your courtesy and interest. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 118 Registered: 9-2004 |
Just found the site on Cords quick read and realised the model for 1934 is the famous L-29. Correction from post somewhere brakes inbaord put greater stress on the UJ'S something like 20,000lb inches. Now this model did have wheel balance problems. FWD,not like most correctly maintained Shadows. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 120 Registered: 9-2004 |
Bill T. With your problem,several things to ask. Have you the third diff set up. Can you explain the loose suspension a little more. Has the vehicle free wheeling hubs. Is the wear on both front or just one front tyre. Has the trouble been with the vehicle since new. what miles has it traveled. sorry for all the Questions, want to try to be correct with the prob. Pat, as this is not R-R/B related suggest you should contact each other direct using the message facility on this site to discuss further - I regret I will have to delete any non R-R/B posts. Kind regards David (Message edited by david_gore on December 01, 2004) | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 123 Registered: 9-2004 |
Thanks David, Pat. | ||
| Chris Gillings Moderator Username: chrisg Post Number: 30 Registered: 5-2001 |
The confusion over what a flat spot is reminded me of my early days with Bess, my Mk VI. (Incidentally, we just celebrated our 10th anniversary.) I'd bought the first set of tyres - nylon light-truck cross-plies - and found that they were lumpy in the morning after resting on cold concrete all night. I mentioned this to my tyre man the next time I visited. He responded "Oh, that's just EMNT - Early Morning Nylon Thump. They get flat spots when cooling down but once they're warm it goes away. Treat it like PMS: you know what causes it; you know when it's going to happen; but you know it'll go away so you just put up with it." And he was right. Another aside: this fellow's tyre yard is on the premises where the late George Sevenoaks ran his second-hand car business from the '40s to '60s. George specialised in Rolls-Royces when few others did and he is credited by many RR enthusiasts as being the catalyst for their passion. Many a schoolboy (and several schoolgirls) tell of stopping at his display window on the way to or from school and getting the bug. -- On a Wholly Ghost Tour in the Snowy Mountains we found ourselves driving Silver Ghost 1492 down a narrow road of rough bluemetal, from rock wall on one side and air on the other to rock walls on both sides. The pre-Armistice Ghost has two-wheel brakes and does not, in general, have stopping power commensurate with its great weight. Our driver was well aware of this yet was unaccountably allowing the speed to increase as we descended the pass. This road turned out to be frequented by very large trucks. Our first hint at this was a Ute with official-looking markings on it coming slowly up the hill towards us. Its driver hung his arm out the window and waved it up and down rather languidly. I took it as a clear sign to slow down but our driver apparently didn't. We were still debating the matter when we rounded a bend into a particularly narrow culvert and... Trundling upward towards us was a very large truck occupying the greater portion of the culvert. It was close and we were doing at least forty kmh. Our driver literally stood on the brakes and hauled on the handbrake fully. The rear wheels locked and we stopped with our front wheels between the truck's front wheels and the rock wall. I could touch the wall from the front seat and the truck was just as close to the driver's side. Our driver is indomitable and proceeded almost immediately. When we reached the next stop we found we'd ripped flat spots on both tyres about 10cm square. It didn't seem to make a difference and they eventually wore off. Now 1492 has new beaded edge rims and tyres, so the next such event should be even more spectacular. |
