| Author | Message | |||
     Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1140 Registered: 6-2009 |
Hello All, Over the years there have been a number of threads regarding Mastertech, its port, and the pins contained therein and how they may or may not be able to be mapped to the pins in an OBD-II port and possibly interrogated using many standard OBD-II code readers or programs. Nothing ever seems to have been entirely pulled together, and I'm hoping this thread might serve the purpose of getting everyone who's been pursuing these inquiries to collect their results here. First, several diagrams:    Way back in December 2011, on the thread Master-Check Pin Out / ECU access most of the major players in this quest were participating. Bernard Leloarer posted the following picture of the Mastercheck port on his car, which clearly shows that not all the pin positions were used:  and he also posted the only table I've ever seen that shows the function/connection of 9 of the 48 pin positions:  Try as I might, I have never been able to locate a key that maps the full set of pins (or at least the full set of those with live pins in the slots) for the first diagram above to their various functions. If anyone knows of a full key, and where to find it, that would be very useful to have. If anyone has arrived at a way to connect a scavenged OBD-II plug to specific Mastertech pins that allow the systems to be queried using OBD-II software, it would be really useful to know which OBD-II port pin number goes to which Mastertech port pin designator to allow this interrogation to take place. Brian | |||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.71 |
Mastercheck is a on board diagnostic system. The protocols for mastercheck OBD and OBD ll are different. I don't think an OBD ll scanner will work even if all the mastercheck connections are identified. In 2001 in Europe OBD ll was introduced which made all makers use the same pin layout and supply the same data in the same format. Before this it was all over the place with some makers using entirely different code prefixes and data that could only the makers equipment could read. Just like mastercheck. I would ask Bentley themselves. The reason for OBD ll was that makers knew they had to have one system, but naturally they argued over whose was the best. The different OBDs were not intended as a tool to make more money. But as a tool to ensure that emission and safety systems could be economically maintained throughout the working life of the vehicle. On low quantity car production a different OBD system from other makes means that scan equipment is more expensive. It's a shame because as the earlier OBD equipped cars age it's going to difficult to keep all the sub systems running and we going to see cars modified to get round the problems. Such as memory electric seats that are normal electric. Long live carbs and points. (Message approved by david_gore) | |||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1141 Registered: 6-2009 |
Bob, Believe me, I'm well aware of what Mastercheck is, and in its entirety it's OBD-II plus a heck of a lot more. Based upon information that's already been posted and private correspondence with someone who's been working on this, it's clear that the ISO 9141 protocol OBD-II standard forms the basis of part of Mastercheck. The table posted above from Bernard Leolarer's post strongly suggested that (just because of the K & L line diagnostic designations at pins w and v [respectively] in the Mastercheck port). I've seen a successful "graft" of an OBD-II port on to a secondary connector that's hidden by being tucked up above the Mastercheck port (at least on some cars, further research is ongoing) that allows this without having to touch a thing in the loom. It is able to pull engine/powertrain and transmission P-codes, which is immensely useful. It appears that Mastercheck made its debut in 1992 based on the responses I've had offline so far. I cannot find anything that pins down the debut of Mastercheck to either a model year or production number in the documentation I've searched through. California required OBD capability on all cars sold there in 1991, so I'm trying to find people with 1991 California delivery cars to see what was on them. Mastercheck might have made its debut then before going "wide" in 1992 or some other mechanism would have been available. The law in California did not specify any standard regarding connections, just what had to be able to be queried by on board diagnostics. Most earlier OBD-II cars (which means 1996 and onward) cars/trucks I've dealt with so far did not generally monitor anywhere near to what the specification defined, but a core subset of the P-series codes, generally powertrain codes and some transmission codes. I've yet to see a Body Code (B-code), Chassis Code (C-code), or Network Code (U-code) come up in the cars I've dealt with. Many codes do not cause a check engine (AKA the Malfunction Indicator Light [MIL]) to be illuminated and I don't know of any inspection scheme that fails cars unless a code is current and of sufficient severity to trigger the MIL. But, that's here in the United States, and other jurisdictions could be completely different. I know my 1996 Buick, the first year for OBD-II, doesn't have active monitoring for the full range of codes defined by the OBD-II specification. If anyone is willing or able to do some research on their SZ car for me (none of which involves cutting in to anything) please PM or e-mail me. I'm trying to collect a decent sample of what OBD port or ports were present on these cars, whether they were prominently placed and mounted (like Mastertech) or hidden, and where they were located over the model years. I would imagine that OBD-II became standard alongside Mastertech in the late 1990s, but depending upon where the car was destined. Omar's photogaphs show that situation on a 1996 model year car, but I've received others from a 1997 UK delivery car where Mastertech was the only visible port and the yellow port and black bridge plug were present, but simply tucked up and away out of sight on that car. Brian | |||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.80 |
Good luck with that. OBD 11 is becoming obsolete and direct OBD will be the New one. Instead of an OBD port, USB. Plug in lap top and the car downloads the software and displays the faults in plain English or any other language. Also instructions on how to repair will be included. Probably got mine sweeper and free cell in case the repairer has to wait for parts. (Message approved by david_gore) | |||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Grand Master Username: lluís Post Number: 302 Registered: 8-2007 |
Hi all, Indeed the k-l lines should be OBDII. I started one of the threats and unfortunately did not pursue my research due to lack of time. My car is going well and strong in case I manage next year I will re-try. See you and merry Christmas and Happy 2015 | |||
| Michael Hicks Prolific User Username: bentleyman22 Post Number: 128 Registered: 12-2011 |
Good Morning Just been reading This and love the negativity OBD isn’t the Further in fact it is in the past cars are know running on WiFi so totally different But Late SZ Cars still have it and a lot of dealers will stop using master check and The Technicians will Not know how to use it if there dealer has it. New Dealers wont be supply with it either as it will be out of date and Expensive So People Like Brian that are willing to Help and try to keep cars running at there best gets a Big Thank you from me Maby People Don't Need OBD and love just moaning about other People You Have a Very Good Site Hear that has built up over the Years By People supplying What they have found out by working on there cars there are others hear that are Negative and think they know everything about there cars well sorry for informing you But RR&B didn't know and still don't Know everything some cars run Motronic Some Zytek this is just for the Engine where is the ECU Made for the Gearbox suspension seats dashboard Lights ? As for Modifying Ecu's there is no need as a ecu can be repaired all we need do is find out what is happening with them and then they can be repaired there are company’s in the uk that have been repairing them for years 80% of parts are from Bosch Not RR&B the list is endless so i say keep it up and if you need any help I am hear Michael | |||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1143 Registered: 6-2009 |
Bob, What does it matter if OBD-II is becoming obsolete? The embedded base of cars, numbering in the hundreds of millions, that use it mean that the equipment to query vehicles that use the OBD-II standard are as ubiquitous as the cars that have it and will remain so for decades to come. Just looking at Omar's pictures of a later Mastertech car that came supplied with an OBD-II port from the factory it's quite clear what we're dealing with here. No one is forcing anyone to do anything. I'm trying to pull together enough research on enough examples of Mastertech era SZ cars to know what is consistent across the models and delivery markets. I've already seen a functioning OBD-II port attached to a car that was not originally supplied with one. The ability to pull codes from these cars where none existed (and, for many, Mastertech itself is, essentially, useless due to lack of equipment) is a big deal. The only way these cars are going to be able to be serviced over the very long haul is if those who own them do the hard work necessary to figure out stuff like this. I've heard enough privately with regard to asking Bentley or a Bentley dealer to know that those avenues of information gathering are dead ends for this specific situation. And it's not just this specific situation. You'd think by now that Bentley itself would have made inexpensive copies of IETIS for the SZ era cars, at least, available. They haven't, which is why the eBay and "private pass-along" markets continue to flourish. These cars, as Michael points out, won't be all that much different than any old cars have been. Cottage industries have sprung up in the collector car communities to address specific technological issues as those issues present themselves. It's already evident that there's a nascent one for electronics repair. I just had the OEM Delco stereo from my 1989 Cadillac refurbished with multiple new electronic components installed on the circuit boards plus new lights and belts with an AUX port very discreetly added. This for the princely sum of $75 USD. These sorts of services are popping up for the range of electronic components. (Thank heaven for retired EEs who take this kind of stuff on for their own amusement and pocket change and for those trying to set up ongoing business enterprises as well.) Brian | |||
| Udo Hoffmüller Frequent User Username: udo Post Number: 90 Registered: 2-2008 |
In the german www.bentley-forum.de I explained how to make an adaptor to get access to the engine- and gearbox data on cars with ZytekECU using OBDII equipement like Scanmaster on laptop or TorquePro on your smartphone. If someone speaks german ... Here an extract of the article, the basics are already explained above: All you need is a Trident Ringlock plug with 48 pins. Its correct product code is TR2448PMS1NB. On this plug you have to use only the pins v and w for the engineECU and r and s for the gearboxECU, B for 12V and E for ground. Others are not accessible for OBDII. The OBDII plug uses the pins 4 and 5 for ground that you find on pin E of the diagnostic socket. Pin 16 is 12V and you find it on pin B. Pins 7 and 15 are used for data. Pins v and r from the diagnostic socket connect to pin 15, w and s to pin 7. Ready. This works fine with TorquePro on my smartphone as well as on my laptop with Scanmaster. I could have taken the cables which go to pins v,w,r,s ,B,E to make splices and connect them directly to an OBDII plug. But in this point I like my car staying in original condition. The ringlock plug with the OBDII plug at the other end makes a fine adaptor. You can get the ringlock plug even on Ebay. But with pins and accessories to have a nice plug I bought it from Farnell. The parts for making the ringlock plug are not cheap, it is quality, we all know that the quality remains long after the price is forgotten. Other pins can be accessed by simple pin connectors, such as pin S to get the data from the pressure transducer in volts to understand if the turbo is working correctly. This has been discussed here already. The use of pin S I discussed in the german forum. By the way, do you know the Omichec OBDII scanner from Omitech? It is made for our cars and works fine on my ContinentalR MY96. But it is horribly expensive and worth the money only if you have more than one car to use the scanner. Regards - Udo | |||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1144 Registered: 6-2009 |
Udo, Unfortunately, I do not speak German. One of the great disadvantages of being from the United States is that you (for any random you) are likely to be monolingual. I cannot thank you enough for what you have posted here. This fills in several additional pieces of the puzzle with regard to the actual pin functions on the Mastertech port. If you are willing, and have the time, would you please check out whether your car has what I've taken to calling the "bridge connector" (which so far has consistently been bright yellow with a black "bridge to nowhere" attached) tucked up behind the Mastercheck socket? That's what Omar's photos show being used as the direct bridge to an OBD-II port that was OEM and another variant on that connector is what I've seen being used as the bridge to an OBD-II port on a 1997 UK delivery car that did not have one from the factory. That bridge port was just tucked up above the Mastertech port out of sight on that car. I've got a friend here in the states who went from the pre-war world to the modern car world when he purchased a 1993 Turbo R that was originally delivered to Germany. He's going to take a look at what might be lurking in the shadows above the Mastertech socket on his car. If these things actually are present on all the cars, or even the vast majority of them, it completely eliminates the need for getting a plug that fits the Mastertech port. The '97 to which I made reference is already able to pull P-codes for both engine/powertrain and gearbox/transmission via a somewhat simpler connection to that bridge port. I'm guessing that the combininb of the v and r Mastertech pins to the OBD-II connector L-line (pin 15) and the w and s pins to the K-Line (pin 7) is already a part of the way things are wired to the bridge connector. If there has been any discussion of what pins carry ABS and/or SRS data that would be great to know. Thank you so much for posting this information. This thread has become just precisely the sort of information sharing and integration thread I had hoped it would. Brian | |||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1145 Registered: 6-2009 |
Now, a cross-reference map based upon information shared so far. Once I determine what form or forms the bridge connectors took I'll add them to the table as well. Though this is an image what's being generated is a PDF file.  | |||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 442 Registered: 4-2009 |
I want to do my bit for this good cause. Can someone tell me where the Mastercheck socket is on my 91 Turbo R and Turbo RL cars? they are both Japanese spec cars. Once i know where these sockets are i can take as many photos as Brian wants. thanks Omar | |||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.79 |
I wasn't decrying any bodies efforts to find info. Which is why I said good luck. Because I have done similar stuff in the past, which became obsolete and then valuable when old stuff turned up. The direct OBD system is already here. I was just pointing out how naff master check OBD1 and 2 are in a roundabout way. But this doesn't solve the past system. Ask Bentley. All manufacturers have technical staff who trouble shoot problems and their efforts include owners as well as dealers. These people are just blokes with mortgages and families who know not every owner can afford a main agent who may not even know. They also know that the ones who can afford it don't buy 20 year old cars and they will never likely buy a new one, so there is every reason to help. People don't buy parts for scrap cars and being able to say 75% of all the cars made in the last 101 years are still being used, is good free advertising. Email Bentley at Crewe they will no doubt take their time. (Message approved by david_gore) | |||
| Udo Hoffmüller Frequent User Username: udo Post Number: 91 Registered: 2-2008 |
Omar, I own a 91 TurboRL nearly from new. There is no diagnostic socket! The gearbox does not have any electronics, and the engineECU is read out via blink codes. Regards - Udo | |||
| Udo Hoffmüller Frequent User Username: udo Post Number: 92 Registered: 2-2008 |
Pin S is missing in the cross reference. There you can get the volt data of the APT to follow what the turbo charger is doing. Regards - Udo | |||
| Udo Hoffmüller Frequent User Username: udo Post Number: 93 Registered: 2-2008 |
Brian, a small mistake in the cross refence: w is K-Data! The L-line is not really a data line. It is only used to initialize the data transport via the K-line. Many ISO-protocols do not need the L-line. But RR does and uses only ISO protocol. The bridge-connector problem I will check on of the next days. My car is TCH53032. Regards - Udo | |||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1146 Registered: 6-2009 |
Udo, Thanks for catching my "cut & paste" error on the w pin!! I could not stand my original color coding either since red is typically used to denote +12V and black ground/earth. So, here's the revised version:  Thanks for checking whether your car has a bridge-connector or not. I'm doubting that any 1991 model year will unless it was delivered to California but, who knows, it may be on all of them and hidden on all except California delivery cars! The S pin is included further down in the table, which is not shown in the snapshot, with its function. The bit that I'm showing is strictly how pins that relate to an OBD-II spec port mapping. Once any and all additional input with regard to other pins appears "to be in" I'll post the PDF version of the reference, which is easier to read in full size. Actually, here's the working draft:
Brian, who formulates your "derived chassis number" as RBM-53032 | |||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1147 Registered: 6-2009 |
Oops, I'm mixing up your 1991 Turbo RL, which would be PBM-35566, with your 1996 Continental R, which would be BBT-53032. | |||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 443 Registered: 4-2009 |
Thanks UDO. No wonder I couldn't find the socket. I spent forever searching on the car - now I know it is simply not there. | |||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Experienced User Username: soviet Post Number: 47 Registered: 2-2013 |
Welcome to my nightmare Gentlemen. I deal with the bizarre complexity of computerised fuel injection on Japanese cars and 4wd on a daily basis. The complexity is why Japanese cars drop in value like a lead balloon and are often seen parked permanently by the roadside all through outback Queensland Australia. So great is my hatred for computers and the numerous electronic sensors in cars together with the rampant unreliability that I am ripping the computer out of my 1976 Cadillac Fleetwood and installing Carbueration because here you simply can't have the car break down and leave it. Too many drunk cowboys with guns. Do enjoy.Yes Omar there is no socket. If there is no socket perhaps you have to use the blip test. There will be a wire and you have to count the blips to diagnose and what fun that is. But even better news chaps the manufacturers are about to release new cars which only the dealerships will have equipment to diagnose the fault. A $10,000 Snap-on scan tool with its countless plug in cards won't read it. That will result in even more Japanese junk being parked up. Ho Ho | |||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1149 Registered: 6-2009 |
Vladimir, Well, the manufacturers won't be doing that on these shores since core OBD information is legally required to be accessible to any shop that is willing to buy a code reader (which means virtually any shop). I don't know what the Japanese are sending to Australia, but here in the USA their cars are at the pinnacle of reliability data and have been for many years now. I've said it before and I'll say it again. I've been driving (and am driving) cars from before the "electronic era" and those produced well-into that era. Of all the things I've had problems with automotive electronics are on the very bottom of that list. They were mighty stable on US makes from day one and have gone from "mighty stable" to "as close to rock solid as you can get" over the last several decades. This is one of the reasons I'm always wondering why the various ECUs on RR and Bentley cars seem to fail with regularity and abandon by comparison. Brian | |||
| Udo Hoffmüller Frequent User Username: udo Post Number: 94 Registered: 2-2008 |
By the way - there really is the scanner for our cars: Omichec! Expensive, but it comes with the adaptor to the diagnostic socket. The problem with this scanner is to understand what they are doing internally. They take other pins than I do, and they connect them to a serial plug SUB D25. As I own this scanner I could list the cross reference from the diagnostic socket to the SUB D25 plug. But I doubt that it is of any help in this theme. Regards - Udo | |||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1150 Registered: 6-2009 |
Udo, It really is valuable to know that there is a scanner that's commercially available and has the same connection cable. As you've already pointed out, though, it's very expensive and probably about as likely for a "random" SZ era car owner to have as hen's teeth. You've clearly caught on to my theme which is to find a way to make the vast majority of common OBD-II engine/powertrain and transmission/gearbox P-codes readily accessible. I have an Innova 3130 code reader but have also done as you have and acquired a basic ELM OBD bluetooth dongle. The convenience of having a real wealth of diagnostic help at the touch of your smartphone cannot be overstated. Being able to create either a Mastercheck to OBD-II port cable or graft a scavenged OBD-II port on to a hidden "bridge" connector (if your car has one) is an essential step to achieve that end. It would be interesting to know whether ABS and SRS data is transmitted on other sets of pins. There are many OBD-II readers now that can interrogate those systems, but they're generally on their own set of lines (that then get "merged" with the other lines that go to pins 7 and 15 on a standard port, or set up on what are normally unused pins in a manufacturer-specific layout). I keep hoping that Torque will eventually be improved to access those systems, but that will probably be a long time coming. Brian | |||
| Udo Hoffmüller Frequent User Username: udo Post Number: 95 Registered: 2-2008 |
Today I dismantled the glove box to get access to the diagnostic socket cables. What I found is really a plug that contains on one side r, s, v, w, B and E coming from the diagnostic socket, the colours are in the same order LGR, LGS, SG, SR, RN and B. At the other side r and s, v and w are bridged. So one could open this connector to use the plug with r, s, v, w, B and E to connect an OBDII-plug. But there is the problem: If we do so, the Mastercheck will detect that something has been altered and will go on strike. To get Mastercheck working again you would have to re-install the bridge disconnecting the OBDII-plug. And maybe even Omicheck will not work - but I can't check this because the Omicheck is in Germany while I am in Tenerife with the car. To avoid this problem I will keep using my ringlock adapter - until such time as we find a better solution. Regards - Udo |
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