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r v Melis
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Username: rené

Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2014
Posted on Sunday, 26 October, 2014 - 10:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I have a 1996 Bentley Turbo R Sport of witch only 20 or so where produced. VIN SCBZR15CXCTX58035.
The horns of the car suddenly don’t work anymore. I had let done a thourogh check-up by a known Rolls-Royce/Bentley garage in Holland named Silver Hill and beside other work they repaired the function of the horns But when i picked up the Bentley and drove it home i noticed that the horns again did’t work. I called SilverHill but they couldn’t and wouldn’t tell me what they had don to fix the horns to function.
( I paid a bulky sum for it, though !). Now i am searching for the defects. I have Bentley Ietis Assist but it doesnt show the fuse and relay arrangement as it is on my car. i have checked most fuses and non of them were blown. Under the hood there is a row of three relays between the top of the suspensionspringmouts en the fender (LHD) towards the valance there is a set of eight relaysockets of witch seven are in use and one towards the fender, to the frontside is not.
I changed the relays from position ( all the same relays) and nothing new happened. I have seen other drawings of the position and other amounts of these relays and tried all of them to wire the switchcontact throug to let the horns sound. Nothing happened and now i am unsure what to do because i do not seem to have the correct drawings of the position ( and colours) of points where to measure and i don’t even have a correct drawing about the actual situation of the position of my reays. I don.y even have a conclusive paper of the wereabout of the horns themselves ( i have no lift to work on the car) I would probebly take a chance weather the horns are within the innerlining of the right or within the left front fender.
Can anyone help me withe some documents of the actual car that definately clear out where to measure and check without completely dismantling the steringcolumn . dasboard and perhaps the rest of the car ?
Regards , René
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1290
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, 27 October, 2014 - 08:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi,

Has it got air horns as well? Do they work?

Is this vastly different to your setup?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwZZTwR07dnuNGxwcFJlc1JFdWM/view?usp=sharing
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r v Melis
New User
Username: rené

Post Number: 2
Registered: 10-2014
Posted on Monday, 27 October, 2014 - 10:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

At first i thank you for the effort you make to help me.
Well as far as i know i have never seen or heard airhorns so expect it only has the mechanical (set).What strikes me is that your drawings actually show the 8 position relay seatings ( where only 7 relays are seated on my car ) and the series of three directly between the top of the suspension and the side of the fender.I have seen several drawings but not this exact one for this car. Although i have a Bentley Ietis Assist CD i am pretty sure that i have not the correct one ( it says its also for a 1996 bentley, but i doubt that is the case). do you have the summary that names the numbers shown in your picture ? The according relays could well be number 7 and 8 , i geuss.But shorting the switch-contacts (one by one) of these relays did not actuate the horn(s). I will check this tomorrow again as i now have better reliable information. Do you have the according electrical drawing(S) that belongs to this set of documents ? Forgive me my "English", as i am Dutch..
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Bob uk
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 94.197.122.82
Posted on Monday, 27 October, 2014 - 10:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

If your car has a horn push in the centre of the steering wheel Check the earth brush. When the relays click there is a pronounced click. If the click noise is heard then the horn push is working. If not check the earth brush.

The horns will be behind the bumper in front of the wheels try left hand side.
the horns should be visible from underneath.

Relays are reliable and don't often fail.

If the car has a earth brush the wire is maybe mauve with a black tracer. Not sure as my Lucas wiring knowledge for RR cars stops at 1980. In any case horn relays are usually wired so that the horn switch earths the relay which operates the horn.
On Lucas systems mauve means circuits that are live all the time fused controlled and black means earth so a mauve with black tracer means switched earth connection that operates independent of the ignition.

Check the wiring manual on the main site attached to this worthy forum. Also Google Lucas wiring colour codes for a complete run down of what colours do what.

It just a case of getting one's head in Lucas logic mode.

Once the fault is fixed go to garage and ask for money back.

I hate it when I've paid to have something repaired and I've had to fix it myself. Last time it was £30 to tell me he wasn't sure. So I got me spanners out and fixed it myself.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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r v Melis
New User
Username: rené

Post Number: 3
Registered: 10-2014
Posted on Monday, 27 October, 2014 - 08:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I have got the steeringwheel with the airbag and two tiny plastick pushpads. I tryed carefully to take these off but they wouldn't come off easily.
I am scared to pull harder on the two plastich pushbuttons and destroy them.Then again i don't think both would fail at the same time.
Is the earthbrush accessable without dismantling the steeringcolumn ? I don't hear a relay click though when i push these buttons.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1291
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, 27 October, 2014 - 08:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

application/pdfhorns wd
horns WD.pdf (85.9 k)


application/pdfhorns key
horns key.pdf (15.4 k)


I'm not going to attempt to reply in Dutch, there is no need to apologise about your English. I'm impressed.

I can't believe that Silver Hill won't tell you what they done. Very strange business practice.

Good luck with it. Paul.

Paul Yorke
EverythingRollsRoyce.com
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r v Melis
New User
Username: rené

Post Number: 4
Registered: 10-2014
Posted on Monday, 27 October, 2014 - 09:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Paul Yorke. Thank you very much for the documents.
The wether is nice over here, i am going to get the Bentley outside so i can put the doors wide open and will go find out where the problem is.
And concerning Sillver Hill, i am very disappointed as wel as i have had the car brought for steeringrack overhaul and some other minor things and the anual yearly technical check-up and Mastercheck readout, paid nearly fourthousand euro's and was disappointed in the outcome and service. Why they wouldn't check witch mechanic did what on my car (example ; horn repair) strikes me as lack of interest in their costumers or just lazyness.( They answered me to clean the contacts, but wich contacts they couldn't tell me.) I wouldn't accept such thing from any ordinairy garage but we don't have so much choise in RR/B garages, so it's just one chance of bad luck ,one sometimes has as an expensive lesson.
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r v Melis
New User
Username: rené

Post Number: 5
Registered: 10-2014
Posted on Tuesday, 28 October, 2014 - 06:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks for the help and the correct documents for this 1996 bentley.
I have found the problem, although i started at te wrong end of the wiring, ofcourse. It was the springloaded contactbrush, right under the airbag. I’ll try to explain.
The contactbrush is a springloaded piece of cheap plastic that can not force to make contact if the (thick) wire that just comes out of this tube, is bend in a hook, preventing the springloaded contact actually make contact, by failing to pull the wire forward. The spring is not strong enough to pull the wire inside the tube so that the contact at the end of the wire actually can make contact under springpressure. The wire can be bend easily by the airbag, above it. I was a bit disappointed about the amound of low quality plastic i came by on my search to the problem. Plastic, (like the bruscontact and the pusbuttons, etc) you could expect in a Toychamp piece of s, not in an expensive car. Hope i didn’t hurt anyones feelings now ;-(I hope my story does make sense to the readers. ?)
Now my dash Lights “airbag” failure but i guess it is because i disconnected the airbag for a short time and i just have to “erase” this failurelight somehow.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1292
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, 28 October, 2014 - 08:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Airbag light . oh oh :-(

I think it can only be extinguished by the diagnostic device.

It may decide that everything is ok after a few start ups but I don't think a missing airbag fault will self cancel.

I'll have a longer think about it though.

Warning to all. Hide the keys somewhere if you are removing an airbag or DIP unit.

Regards, Paul.
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Bob uk
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 94.197.122.72
Posted on Tuesday, 28 October, 2014 - 06:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The amount of cheap plastic in RR electrical switch gear has increased over the years. This cheap plastic is going to be a problem in years to come, as it degrades.

rv Melis,

The whole point of a language is to relay information which you have done actually better than some English people.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 3112
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 28 October, 2014 - 09:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

r v M,

You may do a search on this site or find the following interestion concerning your airbag error message:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Paul,

In the absence of Mastercheck etc test equipment it is indeed possible to clear the AIRBAG warning.

On cars before 1993MY (ie before SZ Chassis 42,000) there is a harness with a socket at its end dangling to the outer side of the fuse panel. This is the airbag diagnostic socket, and the centre pin is connected to a green wire. On later cars the socket is connected to a plug leading to the overall Mastercheck diagnostic etc socket in or adjacent to the fuse panel.

To gain access, the fuse panel needs to be loosened and pushed downwards and to one side.

On later cars it is easiest to disconnect this plug and socket for diagnosis.
In either case, take a switch of any sort with a pair of leads attached. Preferaby attach aligator clips to the leads. With the ignition turned off, attach one side of the test switch to the chassis and the other to the green wire on the airbag diagnostic socket. You could attach it to the Mastercheck socket on later cars but there are too many pins and too close together for comfort in my book.

Put the test switch to the closed position. Turn on the ignition and count to three before turning off the switch. The dash panel will then be in AIRBAG DIAGNOSTIC mode and blink codes will appear. For the airbag system the codes all start with three blinks. If the second blink not a single blink (ie not 3-1-x-x), then there is no present fault in the system. For up to 22 hours after a fault has cleared the code will be 3-3-2-1. If there are three blinks followed by a long pause, then the system has no faults. Once the system is reset, it shoul read 3-5 and a long pause.

Record the blink codes. After each code is recorded, flick the test switch on and off briefly to progress to the next code.

Once the codes are all read they will repeat themselves in sequence. If you are satisfied that there is no remaining fault in the airbag system, turn the test switch on for 12 seconds to clear the messages.

This all arose because I stupidly turned on the ignition with the speedo and tacho disconnected to test the new dashboard LEDs. That activates the AIRBAG warning.

RT.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Reply by Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1123
Registered: 6-2006

Posted on Monday, 09 September, 2013 - 10:39 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP
Good work around. :-)

Ignition turned on at the wrong time . . . very easy mistake. Same with the wheel or seats out. As soon as year hear the beep, . . bugger!

I always disconnect the battery now just to try and prevent it happening.

Cheers, Paul.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1293
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, 29 October, 2014 - 12:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Richard,

Ive followed the manual instructions but have had no joy with it. Tried it on quitea few cars without getting the blink codes to work.

Maybe I'm reading them wrong or my timing is out.

Same with the accelerator presses to get engine ecu fault codes. Never had any joy with that either.

They clear immediately with Omicheck so I know the units and the car are ok.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1092
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 29 October, 2014 - 01:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

René,

In regard to your comment regarding "cheap plastic" parts, for things like the airbag system, horns, etc., these were most likely sourced from a third party by Bentley and probably are used on a lot of other cars. The good thing about that is if you can figure out what other cars you can typically source the parts for a fraction of what Crewe Original charges for the same part (and I do mean the same part).

I've also sent you a private message that I hope may prove useful to you.

Brian
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r v Melis
New User
Username: rené

Post Number: 6
Registered: 10-2014
Posted on Wednesday, 29 October, 2014 - 05:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi to all,

I understand now that i underestimated the fault-notice "airbag".
That is the reason i would't dare to touch the car to correct this fault today. I will study the posts above, especialy the one of Richard wich needs to be studied carefully. I sometimes suffer from a lack of concentration so i will need to take time for that one. I will also take the warning from Paul regarding to be carefull with the airbag. Thanks so far and i will inform you of any progress made.
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r v Melis
New User
Username: rené

Post Number: 7
Registered: 10-2014
Posted on Saturday, 01 November, 2014 - 02:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Richard,

I have a 1996 car but i can't find the correct plug you call the airbag diagnostic socket with a centre pin (is it round ?) wich should be connected to the Mastercheck socket.Do you perhaps know wich pin i could use of the big round mastercheck socket to connect to the test switch ? I know there is nothing wrong with the airbag, i just disconnected it for a wile to acces the horn brush-contact.
I checked the connector on the back of the airbag and found out that you can rotate it 180 degrees (so interchange the leads) and that seemed strange to me.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1299
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Saturday, 01 November, 2014 - 02:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP



Careful,

If you've connected it up the wrong way and you have an accident . . .

It will suck you into the steering wheel.
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r v Melis
New User
Username: rené

Post Number: 8
Registered: 10-2014
Posted on Saturday, 01 November, 2014 - 03:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Is it the 0,5 G (green) wire from the P - contact that i should connect to ground via the switch ? Or should i connect both contacts of the switch between P and N ?
Or should i give up and drive 60 miles to RR/B Silver Hill to let them reset the airbag fault by Mastercheck ?
Thanks for your help.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1300
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Saturday, 01 November, 2014 - 08:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Will have a longer look and let you know.

It's a while since I tried (unsuccessfully) to do it.

It's different when you are doing it for yourself and time is not money, as they say!