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     Max Lynn Christenson Yet to post message Username: max_christenson Post Number: 1 Registered: 3-2014 |
SUBJECTS: Hoisting a Spirit or Spur on a lift and location of engine number on the engine block This is my first post to this forum. I am looking to buy a Spirit or a Spur. Before purchasing any car, I think it ought to be hoisted on a hydraulic lift for a close inspection of its underside. Also, I want to see if a car’s engine is original, so as to determine whether its engine number matches its vehicle identification number (VIN) as it appears on the identification plate at the left front door frame. As I understand it, the engine number should be stamped on the front corner of the “B” block of the engine: the left side of the engine when viewing the engine from the inside of the car. Does anyone have photographs they could post showing proper hoisting of a Rolls-Royce Spirit or Spur on a hydraulic lift? Hopefully, the photographs show exact placement at points 2 and 5, the recommended positions. Page 566 from Tee One Topics #38 is attached to this post as a PDF file for reference. The PDF page talks about damage if not properly hoisted, so I want to be careful. Does anyone have photographs they could post of an engine on a Spirit or a Spur engine number stamped on the “B” block?
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| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 757 Registered: 6-2009 |
If you're putting the car up on a lift you would only be using positions 3 & 4 on both sides of the car. You'll use sill blocks in all four positions and these are easy to make. You can see a Silver Shadow up on jack stands using sill blocks at position 4 in Tee-One Topics, Issue 34 (PDF pg. 15). I presume you obtained the diagram you've posted from Tee-One Topics, Issue 38. The instructions for making sill blocks are also in that issue. I have found that I don't need to gouge out the central recess in the blocks for my cars. You have to check if you've got the drain outlets where the blocks would be placed that would be crushed to decide if you need that recess or not. Positions 1 and 6 are used if you're going to lift either the front or rear end of the car with a hydraulic floor jack (with a thick rubber block on the jack head - I use tire tread samples). The remaining positions are for using a bottle jack,I've never used any of those positions, and I can't for the life of me find the correct Tee-One Topics issues that show those positions in action. I know they exist, though. I can't help you on the engine number location. Brian | |||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1177 Registered: 6-2006 |
Engine number stamped here .. . .. not sure if the seller will let you strip it down to find it though   | |||
| Max Lynn Christenson New User Username: max_christenson Post Number: 2 Registered: 3-2014 |
Thanks, Mr. Vogel, on the lift positions. I figured the front and rear wheel suspension systems should probably hang down free when the car is lifted. Thanks, Mr. Yorke on the engine number issue. The engine number does indeed look like it would be buried under lots of other parts. Maybe I could use one of those little mirrors on a stick and a flash light to see it. It just seems to me that a matching engine number is important as regards the vehicle's value. It may be, however, that these engines are not swapped out very often. Then again, one never knows until it is checked. | |||
| Bob Reynolds Frequent User Username: bobreynolds Post Number: 72 Registered: 8-2012 |
If the numbers match, all well and good. But to me, the condition of the engine would be far more important than the number. | |||
| Max Lynn Christenson New User Username: max_christenson Post Number: 3 Registered: 3-2014 |
As to Mr. Reynolds, I understand your viewpoint, if, of course, the original engine is shot. As a general matter, vehicles with good original engines are probably worth more than those of similar quality with good replacement engines. Personally, I would be inclined to buy a vehicle with a good original engine rather than a vehicle of similar quality with a good replacement engine. After all, originality has its own value. As time goes on, we will probably see more vehicles with replacement engines. Nonetheless, a vehicle with a good original engine ought to be worth more than a vehicle of similar quality that has a good replacement engine. To my knowledge, that is commonly understood. That is all that I am saying. | |||
| Mark Aldridge Prolific User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 132 Registered: 10-2008 |
Max, the only piece of advice I would give is have the car inspected before purchase by an experienced Rolls Royce engineer. These cars are very good at hiding major expensive faults ! Mark | |||
| Max Lynn Christenson New User Username: max_christenson Post Number: 4 Registered: 3-2014 |
Mark, thank you for responding. I agree, the car should be inspected prior to purchase by an experienced Rolls-Royce engineer. My problem is that I know of no such persons in my area, or in any area in which cars I am interested in are available. There are 2 cars in El Paso, Texas, about 300 miles away. No one advertises as a Rolls-Royce mechanic in El Paso. There is actually a "Pancho's Mechanic Shop" in El Paso, but I would not be confident in their pre-inspection of a Rolls-Royce. The nearest Rolls-Royce dealerships to me, in Odessa, TX, USA, are in Dallas, TX, about 350 miles away, Austin, TX, about 360 miles away, and Houston, TX, about 560 miles away. Our last local Rolls-Royce dealership, which opened in the late 1970s, closed in the mid-1980s with a bust in the oil industry, when a barrel of oil dipped in value to about $9 US. Therefore, pre-inspection is a problem, much less resources for maintenance. There is also a car in Miamisburg, Ohio, in which I am interested: a 1985 Spirit. That's about 1,200 miles from Odessa. While there is a Rolls-Royce dealership in Columbus, OH, (not too far away) that does not solve my continuing maintenance problem for the future. Where I live, most any mechanic shop can handle a GM, Ford, or Dodge product, but they are not equipped or possess the knowledge to handle a Rolls-Royce. I do not recall ever seeing a Rolls-Royce where I live. I did see one Bentley Arnage about 2 months ago, but I do not know if it resides here. I feel that I am in a no-man's land for lack of a Rolls-Royce engineer. | |||
| Randy Roberson Prolific User Username: wascator Post Number: 198 Registered: 5-2009 |
Somewhere out there is a hobbyist or technician who has a clue, who would help you, surely. I would say that a good technician with the correct attitude, and with care and the instructions and advice available online, can evaluate, maintain and repair these cars. Read, read, read, and know what you are getting into. A local man had a Spirit which needed a fan clutch; the mechanics just did not want to fool with it, because of the time needed to find the part, etc, not to mention what they felt was some unknown level of liability if they took a misstep and something went wrong. Look for someone who works with specialist cars, not the run-of-the-mill repair shop, although many of these are good. | |||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 765 Registered: 6-2009 |
Max, Contrary to popular opinion, any good mechanic can take care of these cars provided they are willing to consult the Workshop Manual before attempting a maintenance area with which they are unfamiliar and they are willing to stop when they find they don't know what they're doing, call you, and let you put them in touch with someone who can help. Since the split between Rolls-Royce and Bentley if your car predates the Goodwood Phantom it would be serviced by a Bentley (or Rolls-Royce and Bentley) dealer if you're looking for a dealership. Bentley "kept" all of the legacy cars that were produced before 2003. That being said, Bentley dealerships are, for the most part, not all that different from dealerships for other marques in that their maintenance staff tends to turn over with some frequency and emphasis is on knowledge of the currently produced models and, perhaps, one generation back. You can ask the other participants on this forum who have experiences with dealerships how they've gotten blank stares when bringing in a Silver Spur (or earlier) for service that's not purely routine. There are very few people, except those who have at least some years in with the Crewe cars, who do possess the knowledge to deal with them at the outset. However, you can learn how to do quite a bit of maintenance yourself (if so inclined) and/or enough about the issue(s) at hand to guide a seasoned, and careful, mechanic about what to read in the Workshop Manual before deciding whether they want to accept a given job. While, ideally, every car would have a pre-purchase inspection by someone very familiar not only with the marque, but the specific model/era you're contemplating and a full service history it is a very rare exception for most of us "in the hinterlands" to have one or the other of these criteria met, let alone both. It's still always wise to have a good mechanic go over the car with a fine tooth comb, even if they're not overly familiar with Rolls-Royce, as a great deal of deferred maintenance issues aren't particularly hard to spot. Many of the other expensive, and sneakier, issues can be uncovered by using step-by-step diagnostic protocols that are documented in these forums and elsewhere. In the end, if you intend to become the owner of a Rolls-Royce, and particularly in the hinterlands, you have to be willing to accept a certain level of calculated risk and develop a pretty decent amount of self-reliance. Of course, I'd say the same thing is true, but to a lesser extent, with many older and/or low-production automobiles. Brian, who knows very well in advance that others will likely disagree, and vigorously - I can only speak from my own experience these last eight years | |||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1181 Registered: 6-2006 |
Max , I do lots of pre purchase inspection and have seen the heartache caused when the wrong car has been bought. I always say that the two most important things when buying a RR or B are: buying the right car finding the right person or garage to maintain it. Have you asked in the American rroc if they can recommend anybody? The Uk and Europe is tiny by comparison but I have clients hudreds of miles away and service is definitely more important than being on the doorstep. in the absence of a RR&B marque specialist . . . You really need a garage that loves working on 60's or earlier cars. People who know how to repair cars.. not just swap parts over. Read Bill Coburns articles which will give a broad and deeper insight into what to look for. Although I have only flicked through the Shadow owners Companion, it seemed worth a read to any interested owner. Once your homework is done, take a trip to somewhere that lots of the cars are for sale. Arange to test drive about 10 so you get a feeling of what the difference between a good and a bad one is. Maybe even find a recommended inspector where you ard looking and pay for an inspection while you watch and ask what he's checking for? Price and the description is absolutely NO indication of how good a car is. Once that's done, you can start to search for your car. Good luck.  | |||
| Max Lynn Christenson New User Username: max_christenson Post Number: 5 Registered: 3-2014 |
Thank you for your detailed responses. Well, maybe I should not let the cat out of the bag, but here is the link to one of the cars (a 1985 Spirit) I need to look at: http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=79761&endYear=1989&vehicleStyleCodes=SEDAN&modelCode1=RRSPIR&showcaseOwnerId=0&startYear=1981&makeCode1=RR&listingType=used&listingTypes=used&searchRadius=0&bodyStyleCodes=SEDAN&mmt=%5BRR%5BRRSPIR%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=321710101&listingIndex=12&Log=0 I called the owner about 5 months ago and asked about the dates on the photos (you would think they are 14 year old photos). He said he took them about 2 years ago, but did not set the date on his digital camera. He said he repainted it 2 years ago. He is the car's second owner. He is a collector (has 12 cars in his collection) and is a used car dealer. He even has his own hydraulic lift for all of his cars. He was nice enough to point out that it is hard to recoup the costs of restoration, so it is better to buy a nice car rather than a project car. His friends, he said, question the price he is asking. (His friends think it should be more -- so, why not but it from him -- unless, of course, they have no interest in a Rolls-Royce.) The car has the complete tool kit and all its books, he said. It has 69,000 miles. I haven't gone to see it yet, because it is about 1,200 miles away, and winter weather in Ohio has been one snow storm after another this year. Now it clearing up with Spring finally arriving. Flying there is expensive. I ordered and received the build records on this car from the RREC. It is Acrylic Garnet (code 9510394)(not Burgundy as he states in his ad), Rolls-Royce Tan Vaumol leather (code VM 4134), Oatmeal headliner (code UW 17399), with Deep Fawn carpet (code 7026). The maintenance he claims has been done on this car appears outstanding. Says he has all the service records. Thanks again for your responses. I would feel more comfortable if these cars did not have the mineral oil and accumulator systems. That bothers me. Just give me good shocks and springs and I would be happy, as I own a Ford Model T (1922 Runabout) with no shocks whatsoever, and a Ford Model A (1930 Standard Tudor) with lever shocks that, for all practical purposes, though new (I installed them myself), are just actually there for appearance's sake. Other nice things about the Model T are that they do not have fuel pumps, water pumps, air conditioning, heaters, power windows, power door locks, disc brakes, or radios, all of which could go wrong if it had them. Nice thing, too, is that I work on those cars myself. Two other cars in El Paso will follow this message, if you don't mind. Yesterday, I called a friend in El Paso to look at those cars today, but he has yet to answer his cell phone. I looked at and drove a 1984 Spirit in Houston, TX, last August, 2013. Heavy cars. Like a 1976 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham I owned once. The owner loved the brakes, which he had fixed. I thought they were a bit mushy compared to what I am used to in my 2007 Chevrolet Pick-up. Mileage was 64,000 miles. No rust. Good leather. Good paint. He wanted $24,900. Someone in San Antonio, TX, bought the car, but it is already up for sale again for $25,000. Go figure. Something is probably wrong, unless the new owner is just trying to flip the car for a little profit. | |||
| Randy Roberson Prolific User Username: wascator Post Number: 203 Registered: 5-2009 |
I have looked at a few 1980s Silver Spur/Silver Spirit cars which were in excellent condition, all priced in the low to mid 20s and which needed nothing or next to nothing body or appearance-wise, and which I judged were in good repair mechanically. No way a Rolls-Royce can be put right in the appearance department for the incremental money it takes to buy the car in good condition. Personally I prefer a Car with mechanical needs, as long as I have reasonable confidence nothing serious is lurking deep inside. Heck, even a good used engine is not that much money, compared to restoring the appearance. Just my opinion, and I am a gross amateur. I bought my Car because I wanted to learn about and work on one, not because I wanted to drive a Rolls-Royce; I would have paid the price for a good Spur from the 1980s if I had wanted to drive one. The brakes do feel a little different, but they are a little (a lot) different. | |||
| Max Lynn Christenson New User Username: max_christenson Post Number: 6 Registered: 3-2014 |
Here is the link to the 2 cars in El Paso. The 1989 has 102,000 miles without a vinyl roof. The 1994, with 64,000 miles has a vinyl roof. I like not bothering with a vinyl roof, as I had them on a 1973 Challenger and the 1976 Cadillac. Metal is less trouble. Rust can build up unseen under a vinyl roof. They are nice -- but, go figure. However, I like 64,000 versus 102,000 miles of wear. http://www.rainbowmotorscorp.net/inventory.aspx?mk=Rolls+Royce&md=&lid=-1&newused=&exbs=&bs=&fromprice=-1&toprice=-1&keyword= | |||
| Max Lynn Christenson New User Username: max_christenson Post Number: 7 Registered: 3-2014 |
When looking at Spirits and Spurs, I always get a kick out of the owner saying the chrome is great, as the grilles and bumpers, mirrors, as well as the rest of the brightwork, is stainless steel. All of the brightwork on these particular cars is stainless steel, right? |
