| Author | Message | ||
     Roderick Keeler Experienced User Username: cal_turbo_r Post Number: 11 Registered: 8-2012 |
Hello all, I have a curious issue. I replaced the Bosch motor for my right rear door of my 1990 Turbo R, and the window would power up and down very quickly. I was so pleased, I decided to transplant the entire window regulator and motor to the driver's window, so I could more frequently enjoy this speedy window movement. Attached to the drivers window, the situation changed. Powering down was quick, but powering up the fully open window was slow going until it got about 2/3rds of the way up. It would then pick up speed and close quickly the rest of the way. This was tolerable in warm weather, but now that it's cold, the window will barely power up from its fully open position. Again though, if I can nurse it along to about 2/3rds of the way up, it will close quickly. Is there an adjustment of the glass itself that could help? It worked so astonishingly well in the rear window, I know it's not the motor. Thanks in advance, Rod | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 912 Registered: 6-2006 |
HI does anybody else have real problems posting from a mobile ? Hi Rod , is there any sign of stiff chain links? Is the coupling between the motor and gear box in the right way ? One side is slightly deeper than the other . Fill the gear box with comma clear spray grease . You will need to let it set then apply again a couple of times. What was front like in rear ? Are the mounting brackets identical ?from a mobile? ? | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 421 Registered: 1-2008 |
I have much the same problem on my driver's door in my Shadow 1. There is a clue to the cause of mine as the window judders in the tracks as it goes up to just past the halfway mark and then picks up a bit of speed. I attribute it to swollen window seals in those tracks plus (maybe) a slight misalignment in the lower half of the tracks. It usually responds well to a liberal application of a silicone furniture spray polish. At all costs avoid any polish that contains wax(es) as they will set hard in cold conditions or their lighter components will evaporate in hot conditions with the same result. | ||
| Roderick Keeler Experienced User Username: cal_turbo_r Post Number: 13 Registered: 8-2012 |
In answer to Paul's question, I took the motor, gear box, and chain from the rear door and installed it in my driver's door. They were identical and interchanged perfectly. This is why I know it's not binding in the gear box or a weak motor; when installed in the rear, the window flew up and down. I figure there has to be something with the glass itself in the driver's door and how it goes up (as Jan suggested). Are there ways to adjust the cables? | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 914 Registered: 6-2006 |
There is no real adjustment except possibly spacers where the cables are held at the top by the window frame. These are usually removed to help speed windows up. Make sure the cables are running in their own pulley grooves. And they are not caught between pulleys. Stretching the springs can help. Try it while operating the window to see if it does before permanently stretching them. Try a 12v battery directly to the motor to check for switch or wiring faults. Lubricate everything. Good luck  | ||
| Roderick Keeler Experienced User Username: cal_turbo_r Post Number: 14 Registered: 8-2012 |
Thanks Paul, I will get on this and let you know how it goes. Hopefully, it can be easily resolved. Again thank you. | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 422 Registered: 1-2008 |
Compared to the modern 'jelly mold' car styling the window frames of a Shadow or its derivatives are quite fragile. There isn't a whole lot of metal above the door frame and the fixings are limited to a couple of bolts. From this it is easy to see how the top part of the window frame and guides could easily become slightly misaligned with the parts inside the door proper. I can't think of a way of simply checking this other than to try and twist them a little one way or the other and see how the glass goes up and down. | ||
| James Feller Prolific User Username: james_feller Post Number: 255 Registered: 5-2008 |
further to this....all but the drivers window in my 89 Turbo RL were so pityfully and embarrasingly sloooooooow. Door cards off, check cables, ok, grease chains, WD40 everything and still they were SLOOOOOW. Then into the window motors in each door, seperated the motor from its gearbox and WD40 and a good amount of lubricating oil into the gearbox and HEY PRESSTO! my windows now go up and down at a good normal speed!!! what a difference. One of my reardoors window cables were in the same groove, too thus a horrible grinding sound was heard when putting window up or down, simple adjustment of popping the cable back into its own groove on the pulleys and hey presso all my windows now go up and down very nicely and silently. Much happier now as I was considering RT mod for new relays in each door et al but frankly the motors electrical supply was not my problem, it was the window gearboxs were in much need of lubrication after 22 years the gearse was dry... gearboxes are well lubricated again now and window speed has returned so I dont think ill bother with modifcation. The only PAINFULL part was the doorcard removal and reattaching!!! why oh why did RR insist on those god awful metal latches that always seem to pop out of their hole right when you apply a fist to getem in....thus they bend at 90"....grrrrr, then of course a few BREAK.... I can see now why a few screws in the carpet section of the door bottoms are MUCH better!!! J | ||
| James Feller Prolific User Username: james_feller Post Number: 257 Registered: 5-2008 |
after a few warm days and exercising all the windows, the new lubrication in the window motor gearboxs has done the trick! My windows now all zip up and down at great speed and silently! much happier and I now enjoy putting all the windows down on a balmy afternoon while driving and sampling that wonderful woofly V8 burble while cruising around making a nuisence of myself.... thk as always to RT for his help. Upshot is lubricate the window motor gearboxes and all other bits too while you are at it and enjoy the windows going up and down at SPEED!!! J | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 936 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hi James , it's amazing what lubrication can do!! As I have mentioned before 90% or more of slow windows are due to lack of lubrication . We have found Comma clear spray grease is best for long lasting results. Spray, leave to set, then repeat a couple of times. People should also check that the rubber coupling is in the correct way. | ||
| James Feller Prolific User Username: james_feller Post Number: 259 Registered: 5-2008 |
hey Paul, yep the rubber coupling can break or shear. I had this happen in my Spirit actually so I know what you are referring to. Id agree with you, Lubrication seems to be the issue 9 times out of 10. Once you seperate the window motor from its gearbox its really easy to pure the lubricaion oil in or in my case we blew it in in a tube till it flowed out so we knew it was well greased. It would be very rare that alignment and the like would be out unless the car had had panel work and repaires didn't take care when reassembling all the bits..... also all this chat ive read about greasing the felt slides the window goes up into seems a complete and very messy waste of time given that the felt guides only stop the window from rattling in the frame and provide of course weather sealing, they wouldnt id say have any great slide resistance... J | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 435 Registered: 1-2008 |
Although I can only agree that the grease in the gearbox may have lost a lot of its lubricating qualities over the decades since our RR/Bs rolled out of the factory gates I still have doubts about the window runners. On my '76 Shadow one of the windows moves very slowly at first, but then speeds up as it gets closer to the top. On another this is reversed with it starting out fast and getting slower the higher it gets. I can only ascribe this to a slight twist in the top of the window frames which must be pulling back into - or further out of - alignment as the window ascends. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 938 Registered: 6-2006 |
James, there are a number of different couplings. One has a deep and a shallow side. If put in the wrong way it will foul against the motor. Very hard to spot first time around. Especially as lubrication will help for a short while. Jan, Shadow Window gearboxes were, in the main, built with enough and sufficient lubrication and are still fine today. Spirits however were not. Extra grease will not harm in the gearbox though but should not be used on the felt runners. Shadow frames were often 'tweaked' to cure wind noise as well. Chains can be stiff or seized in one place and perfect in others. The felt runners do need lubrication and will help on both cars. Not as much on a Spirit as a Shadow. Spirits are almost free floating and needed plastic guides to 'flick' the glass back into the guides as they reach the top. Spirits often come in with window up/down times in excess of 30 seconds. When lubricated properly you should be able to get sub 7 second times. Do lubricate the chain, pulley bearings, motor bushes, slide and top cog bearing as well - although nothing will make such a big difference as grease in the gearbox. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2746 Registered: 4-2003 |
A note on slow windows and maintenance. SZ and late SY. Assuming that the plastic coupling is not split or incorrectly fitted as Paul points out, the windows are usually slow due to BOTH Low voltage (see the relay mod) AND Gummed-up lift gearboxes. Correcting either, in my experience, makes the windows zip up and down almost as they should. However, alone each is only part of the optimal maintenance. Early SY: These systems have an in-door relay and work rather well and, as Paul indicates, the gearboxes are less prone to drying out than the later German ones of the later cars. However, the window mechanism has an electrically-operated brake which wears on the wrong side: they drag over time and slow the windows. Any of the three main maladies mentioned above slow the windows, but I have always found that, barring major issues like component failures and guide cable malfunctions, the window slides that JF referred to are only a marginal issue. Likewise the chains. So, my recommendation is to correct all three major issues mentioned, but do lubricate the chains etc but leave the slides well alone. RT. ps if your SZ has slow windscreen wipers when first applied, then London to a brick the gearbox (another Bosch thing) has dried out too. The same maintenance is requires as to the window gearboxes. Now, why do people deride the Lucas bits on earlier cars when the Bosch stuff is more troublesome ? | ||
| Jeffrey McCarthy Grand Master Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 371 Registered: 5-2007 |
Re 'Comma Spray Grease' Paul, this brand doesn't seem to be readily available downunder. I do have a can of Lithium spray grease handy. Would that work? | ||
| Peter Maclaren Experienced User Username: ludo Post Number: 24 Registered: 4-2009 |
Jeffrey, after having read of James's success, I purchased a can of CRC spray lithium grease and went to work. Have completed two doors so far, on the passengers side, they being the worst offenders, I am delighted with the results as both are now raising and lowering at a much increased rate and smoothly as well. The front door motor is much easier to remove than the rear. I purchased at the same time an extension tube ($9.95) which clips on over the nozzle of the can .The other end can be poked in to the gearbox and held firmly to inject the grease. Like James ,I also lubed the chain,pulley wheels, cables etc,. I did a bit of research and all lithium greases made simmilar claims as to their effectiveness. I can certainly recommend this cure for sluggish windows | ||
| Jeffrey McCarthy Grand Master Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 372 Registered: 5-2007 |
That extension sounds like $10 well spent Peter if it'll save taking the gearbox completely apart - or did you do that anyway? I used chain oil on the chains, WD40 on the ends of the gear spindles from the outside and also RT's relay mod and they're working fine but I have to take the door cards off soon again anyway. This is the bit I'm assuming needs the grease(on an SY car):  | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2752 Registered: 4-2003 |
Jeff, That's the one. Best use a quality light silicone grease (MolyLube etc) if it is open and fully cleaned out. Lithium grease is OK but not ideal in the medium term. If only removing the motor and drive coupling as James did, then CRC/WD40 will free it up, but it is essential then to fill about 30ml of preferably transmission fluid. Light engine oil is fine too. Use only a mineral oil in that case. James’ approach gives a 100% result. WD40 or CRC alone free things up for a few months before they dry out. JF was annoyed by the window effectiveness on my Turbo R until he did the job last week, and now he is laughing. RT. | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 436 Registered: 1-2008 |
The point about grease is that it is in effect a 'soap' base to which is added oil of various grades to give it the lubricating qualities that are required. However this oil can never be heavy enough for a significant %age of it to not simply evaporate away over time leaving behind a sticky mess with little in the way of lubrication. Most of the time it can be given new vigour by the simple expedient of replacing the oil content with something having the same properties or preferably better. Unfortunately this doesn't take into account any contaminants that may have entered the grease and which could easily cause accelerated wear in future. Whenever possible I will demount the component and wash out all the old grease and replace it with all new. Depending on the type of friction/bearing surfaces this will be based on lithium, copper or molybdenum disulphide. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 942 Registered: 6-2006 |
Many spray greasers come with a straw attached - for free! Usually long enough to get into both sides of the car. Comma clear is just one of many. I prefer it because it is free flowing and 'boils' getting everywhere until the solvent evaporates and then it becomes very viscous so does not get thrown off. This is also why I recommend leaving any spay grease for a while before reapplying a couple of times. I'm not sure that the gearbox is sufficiently sealed to hold a liquid lubricant long term though and WD as Richard points out, does not hold enough lubricant to last. Personally I have not had to do the electrical mod on any cars for many years, since I found how little lubricant was in the boxes. A few cars that I had done the electrical mod on before then have since returned and had the gearbox lube treatment, and I feel that the mod was superfluous in hindsight. Some slow window history: The windows get slow at a very gradual rate and was not often noticed by the driver until they started getting wet whilst waiting for a window to go up. The less used windows were often not noticed at all. When windows first started slowing down on Spirits R-R issued some 'fixes' off the record These started with lubricating runners externally with the window down. Then lube the slider and chains etc.. Progressed to removing the plastic tensioning spacers on the top of the cables. Then try stretching the springs to relieve some more cable tension. Then beefing up the wiring with relays etc. The last one would usually be enough to 'stop customers complaining' about slow windows although in many cases still left them travelling at a 'stately' or 'sedate' rate. | ||
| Mark Aldridge Frequent User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 90 Registered: 10-2008 |
On SY and early SZ cars, is there a way of injecting oil or grease into the gearbox without stripping. Also what lubricant can be used on felt guides. My Shadow windows go down very fast, but the rears are slow closing. | ||
| James Feller Prolific User Username: james_feller Post Number: 260 Registered: 5-2008 |
RT is indeed correct....darn it.....why is this always the case.....well there have been a few things I have made him aware of...not many but a few. Now having the motors apart and all the cards off the door it would seem silly not to lubricate everything while you have your head in there as it were.....a good quality chain and cable grease and as RT stated we used light engine oil as our lubricant for my window gearboxs in light of anything better we had to hand. Worked fine! This window frame felt greasing in SZ cars....look im just not convinced it would do any real good at all and would make a bloody horrible greasy mess... I had a good look at the way the windows in our SZ cars work and can see no way greasing up the felt slides would 'help' slow windows. Unlike SY's SZ have not only curved glass but curved frames. The window simply slides through this plane its that simple. The felt is there to keep the window firm in the frame. And yes provided the glass alignment is ok you shoud never need to 'grease the felts'.. Paul you seem to be right about those 4 lil black guides on each window frame. Certainly my rear windows rely on them just nipping the glass into the frame on the UP. I had always thought or perhapes read somewhere those guides were to stop the glass popping out of the frame under pressure if you put the windows down while driving....maybe a bit of both. Though my front windows dont 'use' these guides...my rear windows certainly do need them towards the top of the UP cycle. Maybe my car being an RL too, the rear windows are quite long and maybe, need these more than the standard wheelbase car. Yes I had always been rather envious of RT's zippy windows in his Turbo R, well not anymore....mine are quick and the "Paul York" up down time is indeed 8 seconds for all!!!previous to this work we did one rear took 30 seconds at least and the front passengers was so slow I never used it and on occasions it would just stop.....I hated it and rarely if ever put any but the drivers window down.... not anymore, now the windows are as good as I could hope for. J | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1199 Registered: 4-2003 |
From Paul's description, it appears Comma is simply spray-on motor cycle chain grease. Great stuff and an indispensable item for any car enthusiasts repair and maintenance kit. | ||
| Peter Maclaren Experienced User Username: ludo Post Number: 25 Registered: 4-2009 |
Replenishing the grease in the window lift gearboxes has produced the most satisfying 'fix' in the years that I have owned these cars. Now there will be no more embarrassingly slow windows, particularly so if a non RR person was watching. Several years ago I carried out RT's mod but alas, no difference, so I was resigned to just having to 'put up' with them slow. The up speed is now 4 seconds, and the down slightly less. I don't know what the optimum speed is ,but I am more than satisfied. I noticed that grease has leaked out of the gearbox on two windows, and wonder how using oil would fare if it is likely to leak out.. The reason I found the extension tube on the aerosol can preferable was that it enabled me to keep the can vertical while injecting the grease | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 985 Registered: 6-2006 |
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=151921171635380&set=vb.480142005358985&type=3 http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=151895794971251&set=vb.480142005358985&type=3 | ||
| Alistair Riddell New User Username: ariddell Post Number: 4 Registered: 1-2013 |
Slightly off topic but one of my rear windows failed on my Turbo R, upon disassembly I found that the plastic union between motor and gearbox had gone distinctly gungy and fallen apart thus rendering the mechanism useless. I have made a temporary repair by way of an appropriately sized tube with slots created to drive the window inserted between motor and gearbox but this is obviously less than ideal long term. Is this plastic piece available separately, or is it only available as part of a complete gearbox? Incidentally my windows have no speed issues, and the car arrived into my ownership with the relay modification already completed at some point in the past. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2797 Registered: 4-2003 |
Yes, Alistair, those couplings are sold individually and are inexpensive. RT. | ||
| Alistair Riddell New User Username: ariddell Post Number: 5 Registered: 1-2013 |
Excellent, good news indeed. I'll need to get a few other bits on order too so will get a set of those at the same time to do all the windows, if one has failed I suspect the others may be in similar condition. Incidentally is there a local source of such bits and pieces in Australia, or would these type of parts always tend to be something to order ex-UK? Only having recently purchased the car I'm still rather finding my way in terms of suppliers. Thanks | ||
| Bob Reynolds Experienced User Username: bobreynolds Post Number: 41 Registered: 8-2012 |
All this oiling and greasing is all very well, but I have found that my SY windows have mostly failed due to the motor brushes sticking. A sharp tap on the motor with a hammer will cause the window to move until the brushes stick again (which may be straight away or after a few operations). The motor is easy to dismantle, and if you lift the brushes off the commutator with a screwdriver they will often stay like that and make no attempt to spring back! Obviously, it only needs one brush to stick for the motor to fail. The brushes can be freed off by wiggling the armature about, but to do a proper job looks like it is necessary to remove the end cover of the motor, which requires a puller to remove the drive cog. I have not attempted this, and I wonder if anybody else has managed to remove the brushes and springs in order to free them off properly, or to stretch the springs to restore the contact pressure. I have noticed that, if you assist the spring by pressing the brushes against the commutator with a cocktail stick, the motor will run quite a bit faster. So this is probably the reason why these motors are so underpowered after 50 years of use. I am sure that new brushes and springs in these motors would give them a new lease of life and probably eradicate most window problems. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 986 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hi Bob, the older Smiths motors do need a free up now and again. I think you will find that with a light tap on the shaft it will come out of the coupling. It uses a round key to prevent spinning on the haft. Pop out the bushes and file them until free. |
