| Author | Message | ||
     Adrian Jump Unregistered guest Posted From: 92.25.58.150 |
Hello everyone, some advice needed on a subject I'm sure has been covered before but I cannot find it. A 1990 Bentley 8 with active ride, the problem is the back end has not gone solid in terms of ride quality as is usually the case with exhausted spheres. Instead it bounces alarmingly rather like a conventional suspension with shot shockers. Are the spheres the culprit? The rear end appears to pressurise as it sits correctly. Looking at the body to which the spheres screw into there appears to be a bleed nipple on the top, is this instead of the nipple low down behind the sill? Not worked on an adaptive damping system before, in the past with non adaptive cars I have removed the sphere / body as an assembly from the strut as opposed to the 'nasty habit' of chiselling them off in situ. This allows the 'O' rings on the strut to be changed as well as changing the spheres more easily. With this adaptive system it appears a pig to get at even with the tool tray/shelf removed. what is the easiest way to change spheres assuming they are the cause of the bouncy ride? I'm sure the Forum will come up trumps again! Ironic our own club in the U.K isn't as active on advice/support with running these cars, they seem to have lost the plot in terms of what a club is for. Regards, Adrian Jump (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Mike Warner Unregistered guest Posted From: 95.149.101.97 |
Adrian, If you are having problems suggest you join BDC in UK where we are very active in supporting these cars Cheers Mike Warner Chairman BDC (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 919 Registered: 6-2006 |
Adrian, When the gas springs are exhausted the ride in the rear feels as though you are being pushed along in a wheel barrow. ( bouncy & hard are subjective terms and are usually opposite ends of the spectrum.) Hopefully everybody has been in a wheel barrow at some time in their life and can identify with that feeling! The ride height will be correct with shot gas springs. Taking the sphere bodies off to change the springs ??? why oh why? Don't even bother! A bit like taking the cylinder heads off to make changing the spark plugs easier! The only reason (so far) to change the o'rings at the top of the dampers is because the dampers or body has been off. There are a number of different approaches to removing the gas springs in situ. If you have a heavy duty strap wrench you may get lucky and wind it straight off. If it is tighter and you have any skill with a hammer and chisel then a couple of taps will have it off. You are looking to ROTATE the sphere - Chiselling them off is not what you are aiming for!!! Use a oil filter strap to tighten the new one one. The lower bleed nipple is still there! Open it BEFORE you start work on the spheres, close it when you have the new ones fitted. | ||
| Brian Vogel Prolific User Username: guyslp Post Number: 179 Registered: 6-2009 |
Adrian, I also know of several people who use the technique of attaching a sufficiently large C clamp to the gas springs (spheres) and applying all "persuasive force" to the clamp, not the sphere. Taking a zip-gun or heavy hammer to the clamp to loosen the sphere has had, so far, universally satisfactory results. Brian | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1458 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hmm/ I just use a chain wrench. And Adrian, lest you be confused, there is no need to join any club to talk to the Forum, it is open to all, owners, admirers detractors - the lot. As also should I not mention is the Technical library, Tee One Topics and Crewe Jottings. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2730 Registered: 4-2003 |
As Bill says, a chain wrench will do, even in the worst case of neglect I may add. Really, it is a job no more difficult than, nor removed from, changing an engine oil filter. Mind you, changing the sphere involves relaxing on a Wilton carpet in the boot for a few minutes, whilst changing a filter involves scrambling around underneath the vehicle. The use of a chisel by some irresponsible renegades was the subject of alarm at Crewe, leading to a service bulletin. All this is documented on this Forum (do a search) and in the Technical Library www.rrtechnical.info RT. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 920 Registered: 6-2006 |
"The use of a chisel by some irresponsible renegades was the subject of alarm at Crewe, leading to a service bulletin." "irresponsible renegades" RT you can be such a Dick at times. If you quote all that R-R says without thinking, you "need" to take the valve bodies out and change the sphere in a vice. They do not advise using a chain wrench in that confined space either. Personally I prefer to keep the car unscathed and mark the throw away sphere IF necessary! Fine if you a hobby mechanic like you, but itrw people want to get a job done safely, quickly, properly and without damage to the vehicle. Enthusiasts: If you are doing your own . . Most spheres, accumulator and gas springs will come out with a heavy duty (snap on make one) strap wrench or a chain wrench. Don't struggle though just because somebody has frightened the tits off you preaching their way is the ONLY way! Millions ( Bentley, R-R & Citroen) have been changed by starting them with a chisel. Once again I reiterate - you are turning the sphere not chiselling it off. You do NOT want a sharp edged chisel and sledge hammer. A 45cm one makes life easier on the gas springs.A couple of taps is all that is needed. Don't find your self in this situation: Quote from an owners experience/guide "Here again the book advises the use of a suitable chain wrench located around the circumference of the sphere. (I did see on Ebay a special Citroen Tool for removing said spheres). The long and the short of it I tried everything, even prayer but they would not shift. After a week I consulted over a beer with our local Citroen engineer and his advice – use a hammer and chisel!! I have never told anyone about this as I was in constant dread of being the RREC member known to have taken a hammer & chisel to a Rolls Royce! So secretly I did and cut a small notch into the circumference and tapped, hammered and after a much shorter time than a week it MOVED! Unscrewed it and removed to one side. Used the same tactics and delicate skill on No 2 and soon that was to one side with No 1. Make sure both old sealing rings have been removed from the valve body." | ||
| Michael Hicks Frequent User Username: bentleyman22 Post Number: 88 Registered: 12-2011 |
I have just got back from holaday and been catching up I like that Mr York it put a smile on my face Sorry RT but it is Funny i went and got a Citroen tool off E.Bay £15.00 and it was off in minutes keep up the good work i love to Laugh | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2731 Registered: 4-2003 |
Chuckle. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2733 Registered: 4-2003 |
ps I have a 2009 Citroën too. Too many spheres altogether. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2735 Registered: 4-2003 |
"RT you can be such a Dick at times. " Advice ten cents. Arguments fifty cents. Verbal abuse One Dollar. My rates are very fair indeed. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 921 Registered: 6-2006 |
RT I guess it's a sellers market but . . . Add Good Advice ; invaluable. And you do have plenty of good advice - don't cheapen it by watering it down with the other 3! :D | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1460 Registered: 4-2003 |
This type of exchange is not new - seems to be a feature of car nuts professional or otherwise. I used to have to tolerate a fellow enthusiast who when you muttered about a problem, would start ' you know what I would do' or worse 'any intelligent person would'. I learnt 500 years ago to couch opinions and/or advice in a polite take it or leave it mode which of course leaves you a way out if you are wrong. As to chisels et al, I just inflicted another Tee One Topics (Issue 96) on unsuspecting owners and there indeed (I would claim) is the ultimate hammer and chisel bash act. What is really great is you lot getting in and having a go. Few things grind my teeth more effectively that phrases like 'I had my man attend to this foible' which is a great report for someone stuck on the side of the road with a magnificent looking Rolls-Royce that won't bloody go mate!!! Finally, do be careful when phrasing a request for help where the cylinder head needs work!! | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 922 Registered: 6-2006 |
Bill , along with ball joints ? they always abbreviate nicely on the job cards ! ;-) | ||
| Lungmuss Unregistered guest Posted From: 92.13.29.134 |
Oh No! After all these years the piece I wrote to help/assist other hobbyists has at last come back to haunt me. Yes it was me that took the chisel to an RR in desparation! I had tried chain wrenches etc., and even made a special clamp to try and move the sphere, all to no avail. The main problem was obtaining enough room to apply leverage, this was mainly for the front spheres and working with the car raised on a trolley jack and supported by axle stands. The article was written always with the overider that if anyone knows a better way, do it! An unrepentent hobbyist, Clive (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1461 Registered: 4-2003 |
Paul/ As to abbreviations, there was a lot of discussion recently about a sentence in a local school paper which read 'Last week I helped Uncle Jack, off his horse'. The concern was the loss of the comma! Lungmuss/ These columns are quite useful for confessions, they are good for the soul and a balm to your tongue after all that cursing. Michael Hicks/ Can we have a pic of the fabled Citroen tool | ||
| Stefan Morley Grand Master Username: myupctoys Post Number: 367 Registered: 7-2009 |
Hi Guys, Learnt long ago to only listen to opinions of people who give it a go themselves. Chain wrenches. Not sure what peoples use but I've used Chain style vice grips successfully. Only need to get the sphere cracked less than a 1/8th turn and pretty much undoes by hand. Yes there isn't much room but really only need to get it started. Cheers Stefan | ||
| Michael Hicks Frequent User Username: bentleyman22 Post Number: 89 Registered: 12-2011 |
E.Bay No 110987958402 UK i will find a better photo in the morning for you to look at but if your going to get one order C5 as it fits better | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1462 Registered: 4-2003 |
There is a newsletter called Tee One Topics witten by some silly old fart who should know better. He described the replacement of the gas springs in detail with pictures. The series are part of this web site and shouldn't be too hard to find but actually it is Issue 56 page 806! Er they are now indexed by the way. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 925 Registered: 6-2006 |
Bill, what are these Tee One Topics of which you speak? They sound like a holy grail of R-R&B information ;~) Tool selection . . . http://www.selbekk.com/Verktoy/gassk_dm.htm What I usually use: http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?P65=&tool=all&item_ID=643618&group_ID=675601&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog It has a 1/2" square and 3/8" square so you can use two ratchets on it and wind it up nicely ;) | ||
| Stefan Morley Grand Master Username: myupctoys Post Number: 368 Registered: 7-2009 |
This is the sort of thing I use. http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/9-Locking-Chain-Clamp-VGP20R-/370108586784?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&hash=item562c30db20 Great for all sorts of things and when I don't want things scratched use a bit of inner tub on the chain. Hassle I had with strap wrenches with nylon and strap wrenches with chain was even when tight there was too much movement at the pivot point at the sphere meaning one needs more room to rotate. Vice grips while being bulky almost elminate the pivoting action. | ||
| Michael Hicks Frequent User Username: bentleyman22 Post Number: 93 Registered: 12-2011 |
be careful boys the Moderator will be after you and give you a telling off i love it Mr York must bring the car down for you to get rid of the codes for me | ||
| Stefan Morley Grand Master Username: myupctoys Post Number: 369 Registered: 7-2009 |
Guess anything that locks the chain to the object becoming one unit, would elminate that pivoting action. Don't think the moderators are fussed about links relavent to the subject as long as it doesn't become spam or self promotion. Cheers Stefan | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1463 Registered: 4-2003 |
Paul/ I thought you would never ask. Go to our library here rrtechnical.info and there they all are all 96 of them. They were started in May 2001 as a private initiative and are tolerated by the Australian club, They are on John Prescott's site in the UK and the RR & B Club in South Africa. They were designed to break the all pervading influence of the cucumber sandwich munchers who had 'chaps' to look after their cars and who considered opening the bonnet of their car in public as a form of indecent exposure. The first obstacle however were your colleagues, generically speaking, who would rather be burned alive than devulge how to actually fix something. The inculcated fear was that if such knowledge got out to the masses, everybody would be pulling their car to bits and where would we be there then eh!!! One renegade among them, now resident in the great garage in the sky told me very early on, if owners bugger up their cars they bring them to me to fix so what's the problem. But the real problem for me was the tribe of sandwich munchers. The average Joe who is mad enough to buy one of these cars joins a club like ours to find out how to fix his car. He doesn't join to meet up with a group of people whose main interest is social and often in the worst form. When universal calumny was apparently not about to descend upon us after the millenium settled in, a group in Canberra managed to round up former members of the Club and brought them to a location safe and accessable where they could work on their cars, ask questions and see things actually done. Suddenly we had over 20 'enthusiasts' including the inevitable free loaders but they told good stories and to a man were great company. The battle that followed has yet to be chronicled but what survived were my efforts to record the events for the benefit of all. The Tee One Topics has always been written in a style to encourage people to read it. The headings for the many paragraphs are designed to startle the reader into finding out 'what the Hell is he talking about now'. The best effort in that field was a dissertation on the rear suspension of a Shadow titled 'getting it up and keeping it up'! That apparently was read by all - even the cucumber munchers! Thanks to your favourite 'dick' who used to hover around my place when he was a 14 years old when I was completely re-building a Silver Dawn from the chassis up and the forebearance of the owner/administrator of this website, Topics finished up here where it is available to every single inhabitant on the planet. I was absolutely determined that prior Club membership was not to be a pre requisite before you would be helped with your car. The only damage in that situation would be to the cars and their ultimate existence! Thanks to our 'New Owners' we were allowed to 'publish' massive amounts of copyright material they possessed and thanks again to Richard these have been incorporated into a sister web site which I just listed. My God even uTube have got into the act! Over Christmas I fell over twice and now have a strange knee which will be investigated with an MRI. I am told I may need an aristosomething which is akin to changing the big end shells on a Turbo Bentley via the oil filler! I looked the procedure up on uTube and have firmly decided to have my leg amputated- it would be less drastic. I am not a mechanic, but I have worked on cars since I was 14 - 61 years. That has taught me a fair bit and I am more than happy to share it for the benefit of the cars - the owners can watch! I'll shut up - but you did ask. | ||
| Adrian Jump Unregistered guest Posted From: 92.26.131.173 |
Oh dear, what have I started! Going back to my original question at end of October it was just me being dense and daunted by the extra bit on the strut top relating to the active ride unit. Once I gave myself a good talking too (something I seem to do more as I get older) I simply removed the feed pipe both ends after depressurising the system, put a filter strap around the spheres and both unscrewed 'easy as winky'. A doddle. I have in the past on non active ride cars removed the body and sphere assembly from the strut to aid removal of sphere and more importantly replace the two 'O' rings on the strut.Once off a tap with a mallet on the body had it unsrewed from the sphere easily. I don't like the idea of leaving old 'O' rings between body and strut - a source of leakage akin to those 'O' rings on carburettor feed/filter stubs that always leak once disturbed. AND yes I do know the chisel is to start the sphere rotating as opposed to chopping it off! Still it all initiated a bit of merry banter, albeit two months later. Clive, how are you? Phoned you quite some time ago to see how things were having not seen you down the farm. Regards to all, Adrian. . . or as I used to write when little... A drain!! (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Arthur F . Unregistered guest Posted From: 49.176.34.64 |
Guys, I think you may have missed the point of the Original Question. In an active ride car the valves in the valve body can break causing an acute lack of damping i.e floating. This problem is usually caused by the car being driven for a long time with stuffed gas springs and replacement of the valve body is the only cure- proven it twice in the last decade. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1176 Registered: 4-2003 |
A word from the moderator - those of you who know me will be well aware of my preference for "road warriors" rather than "garage queens" and I will always endorse the use of alternative parts when appropriate with a caveat to advise owners that these may affect the future resale value to purchasers who value concours-winning garage queens instead of the experience and pleasure of driving their car. My concern about electric fans was the fact that increasing airflow into and out of the engine compartment is difficult due to the restrictions present in the engine bay - adding a fan may not achieve a significant improvement for this reason. David - who has been known to use a Stillson pipe wrench and square key steel inserts to remove recalcitrant hydraulic pumps. | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1464 Registered: 4-2003 |
David/ For some years Bob Chapman has been fitting electric fans to Shadows without trauma. Not having a Shadow I didn't cavill at the idea but I was taken abak to look in the spare parts list to find that it was an approved fitting in two different iterations! Bill Coburn who having buggered two perfectly good castellated pump spanners finally worked out that inserting the spanner and giving the top end a bloody good whack with a hammer invariably loosens the pretensious RR363 guzzling, clicking apologies for a diesel injector! | ||
| Lungmuss Unregistered guest Posted From: 92.13.26.9 |
Hello Adrian, You certainly started some banter and woke up some old ghosts. You could always give a detailed account when we had to take a large hammer, big screwdrivers and a crowbar to the Bentley distributor as in the past someone had almost welded it in!!! I have been to the farm but our visits have never coincided. I did telephone and tried your mobile to no avail but cetainly hope to be there for fish & chips this week. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Adrian Jump Unregistered guest Posted From: 89.241.205.216 |
Arthur F, Thanks for that posting, I have only ever experienced solid back end symptoms with depleted spheres, the excessive bouncing symptom was new hence the original enquiry. As it transpired renewing the spheres cured the bouncing. Regards, Adrian (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1532 Registered: 4-2003 |
Gosh, I had forgotten the exchanges on this topic. Quite a flatus!! Notwithstanding, I have recently almost turned an '87 Spirit upside down lengthways trying to release a depleted sphere. Chisles, hammers, splendid strap spanners fortified with periodic injections of a good single malt - the thing simply would not budge. So, I dutifully removed the adapter and sphere, into the vice (the assembly , not me) and lo with the indications that we were about to have a seismic event, the rotten thing came undone. Now I want to ensure that the new sphere is tightened to the correct torque setting (20 - 33 ft/lbs). But the 'pivot point' for the torque wrench, normally over the end of the bolt to be torqued, is some 3 inches away embedded in the strap spanner's strap!!! Is there a formula for converting the recommended torque figure for the 'remote' location of the pivot point? | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1215 Registered: 6-2006 |
Bill, I think it is something like this, although I will have to check back from my school notes. Remote torque = Brute Force / Common Sense. Some mineral oil on the faces and a quick nip up is fine. The seal stops the fluid coming out not how tight the sphere is. The only ones I've seen leaking are because the seal got trapped out of the groove when fitting, never through a loose sphere. Maybe next time we do some we should measure the tightness by the angle. Ie tighten to the face by hand plus 20 degrees ? The method of taking off the housing was what was recommended by RR at the time when Sp0irits were rolling off the production line. What a PITA that was - didn't take long for shop floor mechanics to figure out a better way  | ||
| gordon le feuvre Experienced User Username: triumph Post Number: 38 Registered: 7-2012 |
That's what working on bonus does, there is always an easier/quicker way, Just used an air chisel to get things moving after I broke my strap wrench on '94 Brooklands, one of the two WAS tight! |
