| Author | Message | ||
     Alan H Olden Experienced User Username: alan_olden Post Number: 13 Registered: 5-2009 |
Hi Everyone I have an interesting problem on my 1981 Silver Spirit BCH02236. On the majority occasions the car starts very quickly and runs very well. However I have noted on a few recent journeys after parking / securing the car and then when returning, it fails to start. All the red lights on the dash come on as expected when the ignition key is turned and one can hear a relay go ‘click’. The column gear change is checked for the Park position and when moved through all select positions the relevant clicks are audible. After leaving the car to cool/stand for about anywhere 20 - 30 - 45 mins, key starting is attempted and starts as it should – quickly. I have replaced the battery a year ago so this is not the source of any problem. I have wondered whether a solenoid or similar is sticky or something else? I have the checked the likely culprits such as battery terminals and relay connections. The ignition switch does not carry a large number of keys so I doubt if the switch is the source of the problem. I have yet to look underneath the car and read through a number of related threads. Any suggestions welcome as a ‘failure to start’ in a service station can be a bit embarrassing at times! Thanks | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 408 Registered: 1-2008 |
Even though your set of keys may not be heavy, if a previous owner has dangled a big collection from the ignition switch the damage could have already be enough for the internals to wobble around. However, do you hear a staccato rattling coming from low down on the engine? If so it could just be a sign of a low battery voltage or even a high impedence somewhere in the main power lead or its connections. | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1448 Registered: 4-2003 |
I have to admit being quite chuffed to see threads like this in the Forum. It is even more gratifying that we do not have contributors who begin their advice, 'If I were you, you know what I would do' or as I have seen elsewhere 'Any intelligent person would know that etc'. I suspect David wields a small axe where necessary in his discreet style; for that we must be grateful. The more senior of us will recall periods of invective that would creep into these pages from some who felt they had had their characters besmirched. I recall the death of a very good forum dedicated to the cars run by a private individual who simply gave up because of the spam that was heaped in there! Sol, having counted our blessings can I have a punt at Alan's problem. I have noticed that the switching gear for the 'electric gear changing mechanism' on our cars is starting to feel it's age. A year or so back I had a Shadow that would only start (that is the starter would only operate) when the gear selector was placed in the 'neutral' position. The problem there was the contact set mounted on the top of the steering column and more specifically wear in the bushing that the gear lever shaft pivotted in. Indeed if I remember rightly (an event in itself) if you placed the selector in 'P' and wiggled the lever up and down the starter would crank.. Now my Spur having been violated by those awful transmission people who thought overhauling the whole thing would be advisable considering the age of the car, while it was sitting on the bench. It had been removed to replace the failed rear main bearing oil seal! Now, sometimes the starter won't crank when the selector is in 'P'. Moving it to 'N' on these occasions is always successful. My thoughts are that as the gear change servo had to be detached and the control rod along with it, to remove the transmission, the relationship between the servo and the actual transmission is not the same as it was. What I need to do is climb under my little machine loosen the lock nut on one clevis on the rod connecting the gearchange servo to the actual change lever on the transmission then place the gear selector on the steering column in 'P' with the ignition on. Next step would be to move the transmission lever to the 'P' position (having turned the ignition off to save the battery). It remains then to refit the connecting link so that the servo is exactly at Park when the transmission is also at Park! I'll report back when I have done this. Meanwhile I just move the selector to Neutral when it happens and remark the I must fix this etc!! I suspect none of this is not much help to Alan except that from his description this is an area he should be aware of given that his car is approaching the grand old lady status with attendant foibles. When the car won't crank Alan, try holding the key to the start position and wiggle the gear selector around the 'P' position and the 'N' position. If you get a result you will know where to start looking for the problem. Just had a nice shot of a well tended single malt and remembered that your car has a starter relay situated next to the three wiper relays in the engine compartment. Change it for a known good relay and see if that is the culprit. I think I may just do that to mine as it gets a fair belting does it not! | ||
| Alan H Olden Experienced User Username: alan_olden Post Number: 14 Registered: 5-2009 |
Thanks for these responses. I will start looking more closely based on these suggestions. I am sure that the battery is strong as I don’t hear any staccato sounds – the engine cranks with confidence. That said, I will look at all the connection points. The starter relay is a ‘Lucas UK’ which is blue in colour / cylindrical in shape; I am therefore unsure whether it is Crewe part though is an OEM unit. The Technical Description documents Section M4-9 shows all relays to be of the same type – interesting! It looks’ odd’ against the wiper relays which are all the standard design. I have also wondered whether there may be intermittent relay fault inside the gear-change actuator –‘ micro-switch starter circuit’. I am not a malt devotee; more an aged port – so this will assist the investigations! | ||
| James Feller Prolific User Username: james_feller Post Number: 237 Registered: 5-2008 |
JUst a thought and not to enrage Mr Coburn....as this is only a thought!!! The starter motor maybe on the way out. My 86 Spirit used to do the exact same thing,on occasions, particularly when hot! as in fail to crank the engine. All lights worked as usual, new battery and no alternator issues, with key turned there was no lucas starter 'nashing away at the flywheel'. This happened to me at the MOST innappropriate time too!!! Concors judging of my vehicle!!! OF COURSE!!! Now Alan, the fix for me on that occasion that left me very red faced was a rather hefty tap on the starter motor with a mallet. It worked and the car fired up fine. So its only a thought that your car being an 81' model will more than likley have the old lucas boat anchor starter down there....even Mr Coburn recommends changing them when they are done with the newer type nippondenso unit. Of course check the relays and et al, but as your problem reads very much like mine, ie intermittant and when hot....hmmm de ja vue.... Hope you find the problem soon. J | ||
| Andy Torkington Experienced User Username: andytork Post Number: 15 Registered: 1-2012 |
Had many an old car where knocking the starter with a broom handle or the like worked 100% of the time. (I also know this wont make much sense) I had a nissan patrol auto that suffered the same thing. when it happend simply moving the transmission through the gears and back free'd it and then it started Usually its crud jamming the starer from engaging / dis-engaging properly, a slight movement on the flywheel or tap on the starer forces it to free up | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 410 Registered: 1-2008 |
Do these later versions of the Shadow series still have a problem with engine oil leaking past the rocker box cover gaskets? If so the contacts at the front of the starter solenoid could be contaminated with this oil and presenting a high impedance to the current flow. 2 years ago I had much the same problem with SRH 24519 which I 'cured' by removing, dismantling and cleaning the contacts and, rather than fitting new gaskets which I'll do anon, then covered the solenoid with some plastic sheeting. So far the problem hasn't recurred. | ||
| James Feller Prolific User Username: james_feller Post Number: 241 Registered: 5-2008 |
yes thats what ruined my starter, oil dribbling onto it from the rocker covers, until I had them permanently fixed with neoprene gaskets. Not to mention the other grime and detritous flung up at it over the years. I wont say my frequent habit of liberally degreasing and hosing the underside of the car at least once a month didnt contribute a fatal effect on the old lucas stater either...either way its sounds like Alans problem is contacts in the starter or maybe the starter itself, Alan next time it happens give it a good tap with a blunt hammer and see if it makes a difference....then use the hammer on your finger or toe as it wont be as embarrasingly painful as my shame at the concors day when I had to pull out of the judging due to my immaculate car not starting for the judges when requested..... | ||
| Brian Crump Prolific User Username: brian_crump Post Number: 116 Registered: 2-2007 |
Since it starts well when cold but not after a heat soak I would start with the relay and associated wiring. Frequently as these components age they develop high resistance allowing a voltage drop and hence insuffient power to crank.... It's quite common across a range of cars. Regards, Brian | ||
| John Shostrom Prolific User Username: silvawraith2 Post Number: 126 Registered: 4-2005 |
This is all very interesting indeed, and I hope Alan will report back to us what he has discovered. I experienced the very same problem with my 1976 Silver Shadow LWB, chassis LRE25318 and it turned out to be the same issue as Bill described with the Shadow above. A couple of years later, the same problem arose with my 1982 Silver Spirit, CCX03968 ... and wouldn't you know it: it was the starter relay! Do please let us know, Alan! | ||
| Bob Reynolds Experienced User Username: bobreynolds Post Number: 21 Registered: 8-2012 |
"Any suggestions welcome as a ‘failure to start’ in a service station can be a bit embarrassing at times!" Leave the engine running. As it's a Rolls-Royce nobody will hear it. (smile) | ||
| Brian Crump Prolific User Username: brian_crump Post Number: 117 Registered: 2-2007 |
True Bob - but the ticking of that bloody clock will drive them mad....  Regards, Brian | ||
| PETER HYLAND Yet to post message Username: peter_hyland Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2012 |
My '82 Spirit intermittently fails to re-start once hot. I've had the starter moter replaced and the coil replaced with one of Bob Chapman's new masterpieces - so I'm confident they are NOT the culprits. My cure is to open the bonnet, remove the starter relay, and let everything cool down for 15 mins. Then sudenly, it re-starts just as easily as if failed to do so, 15 mins earlier. I think we have a common problem, and by a process of elimination as to the cause, we'll get to a solution - and I bet it is a simple one! | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 891 Registered: 6-2006 |
Peter, is your car failing to crank or failing to run. A new starter suggests non cranking, A new distributor suggests non running. Alan, The starter relay closes TWO contacts at the same time when energised. Sending a feed to the starter and a 12v to the ignition bypassing the ballast resistor. Hence different to most relays which are changeover relays swapping the feed from one contact to the other. (not interchangeable.) Bosch ones are available to replace the blue Lucas ones. If the starter relay is faulty then you can check by bridging across the socket terminals to send a direct feed to the starter. (a diagram of terminals is printed on the relay.). With a test light you can also check for a feed when key is at the crank position which will eliminate the crank circuit from the switch through the gearbox actuator etc to the relay. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 892 Registered: 6-2006 |
ps starters often fail when hot but are ok when cold, Just to put a spanner in the diagnosis process! So best to do checks and tests when the starting problem is apparent. | ||
| Alan H Olden Experienced User Username: alan_olden Post Number: 15 Registered: 5-2009 |
Thanks for these suggestions – I have had a few spare days to probe around particularly around the starter relay and checked all connections. I did indeed find some poor and degradated insulation on the critical wires to the starter motor and associated wiring - covered in all kinds of road grime etc with the potential for intermittent short circuiting! I have attended to this though in due course some new wiring may well be required. Interesting post from Peter H - almost identical problem! I have also ordered a replacement Bosch Relay from Flying Spares to replace the Lucas Unit. It may well be hard to confirm the actual culprit though my initial betting is on the Lucas unit! At least I can eliminate this source and observe changes. Thanks | ||
| Roderick Waite Frequent User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 75 Registered: 1-2012 |
I don't get this on my '84 Spirit, but I did have it on an Austin Maxi, years ago. Turned out the petrol feed pipe was too close to the exhaust manifold. Whilst running, the petrol flow kept things cool, but once switched off, the petrol vapourised in the pipe and I had to wait a while for things to cool down enough for the petrol to re-condense. Rod Waite | ||
| Alan H Olden Experienced User Username: alan_olden Post Number: 16 Registered: 5-2009 |
Since the last set of posts the RR has performed admirably the majority times and having pursued a number of investigative channels as suggested, sadly all have been to no avail. Even a replacement Bosch starter relay has not eliminated the intermittent 'fail to start'. I am now of the view that as the starter motor is the original unit it is likely to be the suspect - hot conditions and/ or road grime may well be breaking down the insulation as suggested above by Bill / James and other valued contributors. Looks like I am up for a replacement Nippondenso unit. Doubtless the removal and fitment of the starter motor is not straightforward and I read somewhere (?) that its removal is best aided by decoupling of exhaust system and /or steering unit. Is there a TeeOne Topic or related link that covers this process? I could not identifty in my quick search. Thanks again. AlanO |
