| Author | Message | ||
     Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Prolific User Username: lluís Post Number: 228 Registered: 8-2007 |
Hi all, My Continental R has always had a minor minor leakage that never gets to the floor (such is its size that cleaning every 6000 miles with the service suffices). Since boosting the turbo a little bit up and probably because it's summer, I get the odd drop of oil on the floor. I have cleaned the flame trap (which was a little dirty) and investigated further. I would think that the screws that hold the power steering reservoir bracket to the oil filler neck (and that go through) are leaking oil. I tightened them a bit but realized that when I last dismantled that component to change the Power Assisted Steering hoses I did not put any loctite there. Could this be the issue? The flame trap was not particularly dirty, but I thought that it might help. Is there anything else in the breather assembly that can be cleaned and how? What are the other sources of oil sweep? I saw that the center of the V is a bit sweaty, in particular at the front, is there anything that is prone to leakages there. It's certainly engine oil. Best regards Lluís | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1119 Registered: 4-2003 |
With DRH14434, I found it was necessary to retorque the rocker cover hold down bolts from time to time as oil would start to dribble down the engine block. A wash with kerosine removed the oil before it could attract dust and grime. | ||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Prolific User Username: lluís Post Number: 229 Registered: 8-2007 |
Hi again, Bloody hell, those bastards in the new style engine are really a hard to tighten. I managed to tighten the front and back screws of each bank, but the central one is impossible to get to. I did not overtighten because I used a short 18mm key (40mm lever). Any tips on how to get to the central ones without dismantling the intake? Best regards, Lluís | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1121 Registered: 4-2003 |
Lluis, Be thankful for small mercies, your car will have elastomer gaskets under the rocker covers instead of the cork gaskets that afflicted DRH14434. The later gaskets provide much better sealing than the traditional cork gaskets. Now to find the evil genius who decided to make it impossible to access the hold-down screws on your car........ | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2620 Registered: 4-2003 |
Lluis, In the flame trap housing, is that small spring still there on top of the diaphragm ? I have considered increasing the aperture which governs the crankcase depression. My Turbo R has more depression than the Conti. James' '89 Turbo R is like my '87. I'll do some depression measurements over the weekend. Could you measure yours ? It should be about 100mm of water, ie suck water up a plastic tube to a height of 100mm. RT. | ||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Prolific User Username: lluís Post Number: 230 Registered: 8-2007 |
Hello, Yes, depression tests should not be a problem, may be I can manage tonight. I only dismantled the mesh filter (I thought that was the culprit of blockage. Should I tear the whole thing appart? Best regards, Lluís | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2621 Registered: 4-2003 |
Lluis, The breather assembly is very simple. Best is to inspect the diaphragm by removing the housing top cover. To do that, the hose to the dump valve will need to be removed. They are often brittle and you may need a new one. I simply fitted a suitable hose from a generic spares outlet: the material doesn’t matter as it only carries air and at only a small vacuum. EPDM is fine. I have heard that the diaphragm can split: it is a plastic affair. Watch out for the small spring on top of the diaphragm when you remove the cover. There are some one-way valve discs, one of which you will see with the cover off: nothing to go wrong there as they sit in the housing loose under gravity. It is unlikely but possible that one of the air metering orifices is blocked: some compressed air should clear it and test it. Have fun, RT. | ||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Prolific User Username: lluís Post Number: 233 Registered: 8-2007 |
Hi there, Ok, dismantled and cleaned. I am almost sure that the o-ring to the flametrap is the culprit of my leakage, which got much worse after cleaning the flametrap as it seems that I did not seat the thing properly. In any case it's all dismantled and cleaned now. A hell of a job, as in my car the manifold feed pipe must be dismantled... anyway, I profit to renew a hell of a lot of vacuum hoses, including those of the turbo (inter many alia). I cannot manage to find the right part number for the paper gasket and the o-ring. Can you help me? I guess it's better to do it with the original gasket type than with high temperature silicon? Because of the tiny metering holes I mean... Thanks for the help. Lluís | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2627 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hallo Lluis, Originally there is no gasket for the housing cover, so just clean the surfaces. I forget the size of the O-rings, but recall that they are all conventional nitrile types (NBR 70 Shore A) in the BS range (inches), eg BS212. Don’t quote me as it is best to match the old ones in case they are metric. I managed to buy them loose easily in Switzerland so it should be the same for you. Here I have O-ring kits with all sizes metric and inches, plus a selection of EPDM O-rings for SY hydraulics and all cooling systems. These kits are very convenient. RT. | ||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Prolific User Username: lluís Post Number: 242 Registered: 8-2007 |
Hi again, Please help... I now have a fully working boost control system and a leak, which I had never had before... The breather should be OK now, the only ring I did not change is the one at the back where the metal pipe is simply pushed into the base of the breather. I see liquid oil in the top of the engine, at the front. Cannot see where it is coming from, top cover? What else is up there? I also have the impression that it got worse with the airco compressor job I had done. Is there anything that can be moved or removed up there on onbolt when changing the compressor? Best regards, Lluís | ||
| James Feller Prolific User Username: james_feller Post Number: 206 Registered: 5-2008 |
Lluis, sorry to read this.... you are sure its engine oil? and not green? one of my hydraulic pumps was leaking a few years back and did pool a bit in the valley of engine (the front pump from memory). A new O ring cured it. other than that I hope you get it sorted and the grin returns!!! im sure you will!. Other than these pumps I cannot think of anything at the top of engine that would do what you describ other than the hydraulic brake and suspension pumps? wishing you good luck from freezing cold Aussie land mate! J | ||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Prolific User Username: lluís Post Number: 244 Registered: 8-2007 |
Hi, Absolutely, it's engine oil. I believe something at the front of the engine is the culprit. The breather is overhauled, but I will re-check this week end, as the little o-ring at the bottom did not get renewed. I was at Brabo and they said not to worry, culprit according to them: or the top gasket, or the front timing cover which is a pain to change (also for the wallet). A further option could be oil in the plenums, leaking through the inlet pipes gaskets, not a horror case according to them, but not unseen either. Any further ideas welcome. Lluís | ||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Prolific User Username: lluís Post Number: 245 Registered: 8-2007 |
By the way, do you know what the size of the mega-allen key for the sump plug and the necessary o-ring would be for my car. I will change the oil as a matter of course. Best regards, Lluís | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2647 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Lluís, It is a 14mm Allen key. Use an Allen socket. Sometimes the flats of the key need slight dressing (filing with a fine file) to fit easily. You may reuse trhe aluminium washer a few times if you have no spare. A search of this Forum will show pictures search sump plug etc). It is a really superior system provided you have that Allen kew-socket. RT. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2648 Registered: 4-2003 |
see: http://au.rrforums.net/forum/messages/17/1987.html#POST5073 second posting. If yours is the same as on my Conti R, that is the tool to use (I did the oil and filter change a fortnight ago). Sometimes the aluminium washer is included with the filter. RT. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2650 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Lluís, What was the crankcase depression reading on idle ? It should be greater than 10cm H2O. I just tested mine and it is about 2cm (a test takes a minute with a plastic hose in the dipstick tube and a bottle of water). I even removed the diaphragm and blocked the passage but it made no difference. As I know that the flame trap is clean, I'll pull the breather out and clean all the passageways on the weekend. Was there anything amiss with your breather assembly ? RT. | ||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Prolific User Username: lluís Post Number: 249 Registered: 8-2007 |
Hi, It's difficult to saw what was amiss (maybe nothing). I spotted a quite dirty mesh flame trap filter and a very very dry and seated cork joint of the oil filler which could all be contributing to leakage. In addition there was a sweating leak from the breather connection pipe to the oil filler assembly. Last but not least buy system is a bit overfilled (from the last service and the fact that the car hardly uses any oil, this coupled to very hard driving these last days may have combined to a leakage. I will change the oil this week end and fill it in to the mid of the level. Manometric, I get about 250-300MBar vacuum at idle, I believe. I did not do the water trick. Thank you a lot for the input which has certainly contributed to getting rid of the leak. | ||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Prolific User Username: lluís Post Number: 250 Registered: 8-2007 |
By the way Richard, you most certainly know this, but last week end I took the opportunity to inspect the Engine Management System gadgetry in our cars. In as much as I could see, it's identical to BME E32-E36 components that can be bought two a penny. I am also quite convinced (but this may be for the turbo topic) that Motronic knows nothing about intake pressure, it only and strictly reads airflow (in repeat to air magnitudes). I have tried to find a connection between motronic and the APT and I am so far un successful, IETIS EMS description only discussed pressure in connection with the boost ECU. Do correct me in case that I am wrong. Furthermore (and we can continue this in the turbo, I will double post) I read in the "insight to boost controlled systems" in RR technical info, that L and K jetronic ECU had an earlier advanced setting for turbocharged cars, which would be the reason for reduced boost. In my opinion, this was however prior to close-loop lambda control system, as in Motronic, wherein the advances curve is not preset differently for cat and non-cat cars and wherein the the main reason would be to stay in close loop until 3000rpm (with reduced boost) for emissions (as described in IETIS). Best regards, Lluís | ||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Grand Master Username: lluís Post Number: 315 Registered: 8-2007 |
An update... Without many doubts the source of the offending leakage is found. I reduced it to a bare minimum but still enough drops to oil the carter pan and exhaust pipe. As read above the usual suspects were overhauled... And now THE SURPRISE. What was really leaking??? The Crankcase Ventilation System: overhauled cleaned and assembled with great care (???). It was allowing WAY to much vacuum and flow to be built in the crankcase and under some conditions swallowing oil into the rams. Now when the engine was cold, the oil went down the pipes and escaped through the pastic seals making a hard-to-spot mess. UV colorant helped me track it and dissasembling everythign on top of the engine made the problem apparent. So now my point is: What on earth is making the well functioning PCV swallow so much??? Is there a restrictor anywhere that I lost? And last but not least, now yes, I am installing an oil catch tank. In case that my catalysers are shot because of a defective PCV I am not running the risk again.} | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 3165 Registered: 4-2003 |
I assume that you have checked the diaphragm and spring. The device is so simple that not much can go wrong. Yes, by design there is a restrictor but it limits air flow if something goes wrong and not the vacuum as such if the crankcase is tight. So, my question out of interest, is how did you measure the vacuum ? Using a manometer (in other words clear plastic hose from the oil dipstick tube down to a bucket of water) I assume. What was the reading ? On a Turbo, 10cm H2O is rather low indicating a crankcase leakage (often the foam strip between the front cover halves), 20cm is nice, and 40cm indicates a hardened diaphragm unable to regulate the vacuum to a maximum value. R. | ||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Grand Master Username: lluís Post Number: 316 Registered: 8-2007 |
That is the issue Richard: flow. The vacuum seems to be fine (diaphragm renovated in 2014) but still a bit on the high side, hard to measure accurately. But flow is massive. Where is the restrictor? I may have lost it or stupidly even thrown it away thinking that it "restricted" flow and that leakages were from elsewhere. I mus say nevertheless, that the leakages in my engine are hard to spot because of lack of visibility by the ram pipes. As on the simplicity of the device: yes "but", the discs can be easily stucked by condensation (it's nicely seated but not heated). Additionally in dual throttle engines, such as mine, only one manifold gets contaminated, so that I would not be surprised that now the throttle bodies were out of balance due to the extra flow... | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 3166 Registered: 4-2003 |
Lluís, the restrictor is pressed into the breather housing and is the seat for the diaphragm. It is unlikely that it has come loose or been lost. I suggest that you test the vacuum in centimetres of water as described above and below. If the depression is less than 20cm of water and the air flow is large then the breather is probably doing its job but there is a crankcase leak. As noted, a common leak I am told and have observed is between the front (timing) cover halves past the foam strip. The test takes just a few minutes. Remove the dipstick. Take a 6mm plastic tube. Wrap masking tape around one end until the tube jams firmly into the dipstick tube and seals. Place a vessel - a soft drink bottle will do - full of water on the floor and put the other end of the tube into it. Start the motor and measure how high the water is sucked up the tube. RT. | ||
| Lluís Gimeno-Fabra Grand Master Username: lluís Post Number: 318 Registered: 8-2007 |
That makes sense, perfect sense actually. Will check it asap. | ||
| Jean-Pierre 'JP' Hilbert Experienced User Username: jphilbert Post Number: 36 Registered: 9-2013 |
A quick version of this test is to open the oil filler port and firmly place a thin-walled plastic bag over the aperture, like a skin fits over a drum. Then see how much the plastic is sucked-in, engine running. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 3171 Registered: 4-2003 |
Lovely. It saves all of 5 minutes and yields no emperical reading. It will tell you, yep the engine is running. Next do the test properly to see whether there are 4 or 40cm of depression. | ||
| Jean-Pierre 'JP' Hilbert Experienced User Username: jphilbert Post Number: 37 Registered: 9-2013 |
For sure Richard, I cannot agree more. The plastic bag method is a quick test that tells you whether there is a depression at all. So many of our cars drive around with clogged flame traps and the other issues simply because they don't know about them. That's how I learned...;) |
