| Author | Message | ||
     Don Elliott Unregistered guest Posted From: 24.22.187.33 |
Several years ago there was vigorous discussion on this Forum regarding if there was a suitable non-Crewe thermostat for the SY and SZ series cars. The general conclusion was "No". US RROC members had similar discussions and came to the same conclusion. However, three authors in the US have now found a suitable (and likely superior) alternative thermostat for the UE36000 (lead plug variety). Its wide availbilty and modest cost is attractive especially given the issues with the lead plugs failing in US cars. The alternative device has been running normally in a 1978 Silver Shadow and and 1988 Silver Spur since January. A 4 page paper has been prepared and we would like to offer it to our friends "down under" for their Tee One Topics publication. But I don't know how to submit it and any assistance would be most appreciated. It is presently in an Adobe Acrobat format that can be clipped and pasted for publication directly. Is there any interest in this topic in OZ? Don Elliott Gig Harbor, WA USA (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1082 Registered: 4-2003 |
Don - Thank you for this information and I am certain Bill Coburn will be interested in including it in Tee One Topics. You should be able to message Bill through this forum - just click on "Search" under Utilities in the menu on the LHS of this page. Tick the menu labelled "Search by Keyword" and enter the following data: Search for: Bill Coburn Keyword Options: "And" [match all keywords] Match Method: Whole words only Match Case: Case Insensitive [case does not matter] Look in: Names of authors Click on any topic in the search results and a list of posts by Bill will be revealed. Click on any one of these and a thread will open which includes a post by Bill. Left click on Bill's name and his member profile should appear. If you go to the bottom of this page, you will see a link "Click here to send a private message to Bill Coburn". Click on this link and enter the required information. Hopefully, this will work for you as a guest. If not, please email me at drh14434ATyahooDOTcomDOTau with your email address and I will pass it on to Bill. [AT=@ DOT=.in email address]. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 843 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hi Don, is there a link to it available? regards, Paul. | ||
| Don Elliott Unregistered guest Posted From: 24.22.187.33 |
Thanks David, I'll get moving to contact Bill. Paul: There is a link to the paper in the USA, but it is a bit complex to reach since it is embedded into the RROC Forum here. It may be simpler just to email you a copy (I'll need an email address). If you have access to the RROC Forum in the USA it is under Technical General category. Don (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2494 Registered: 4-2003 |
Don, that the RROC Inc took the matter of alternative thermostats from Stant and others seriously, and unanimously rejected the proposed paper encouraging their use, must raise concerns over any recommendation for the alternatives. The RROC Inc board vehemently denies that the decision was made to appease Crewe, rather that the alternatives are not up to scratch from a technical point of view and are certainly not proven in Crewe V8s. I doubt that either this Forum, or the RROC(A), would endorse substitutes for such a vital device as a thermostat. In our Technical Library you will also note the conspicuous total absence of reference to just about any alternative devices for any areas in our cars except where they address unavailability or appropriate upgrades (for which I am known). This is not purist nonsense, nor is it to protect against liability. This weary subject arises regularly for MkVIs, S, SY and SY cars alike. If you want to save the costs of 5 litres of coolant by going for a cheaper thermostat, then do so privately. Only by buying the correct components do we have any chance of our suppliers supporting us with the correct thermostats at reasonable prices as the cars become older. Yep, all three of my Crewe V8s have genuine thermostats, and ar replaced at reasonable intervals. That has to be the safe option especially as Crewe thermostats are not expensive. RT. | ||
| Brian Vogel Frequent User Username: guyslp Post Number: 63 Registered: 6-2009 |
Richard, As one of the three authors, and having quite a bit of first hand information both on the topic at hand and the debate regarding the paper, my concern is with the fact that the paper was rejected for reasons having nothing to do with technical merit. It has become quite obvious precisely why it was rejected, and there is correspondence, some of which has already been quoted on the RROC-US forums, to confirm it. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, mystical about Crewe Original thermostats and our extensive research has clearly indicated that they are more fault prone than more typical designs. None of my Crewe V8s will ever have an original lead-plug design thermostat in them ever again. This subject should not be weary, but should have been definitively settled with accurate information years ago. It is yet another of those tired subjects "that must not be discussed" because "I (for some value of "I") said so." Brian | ||
| Don Elliott Unregistered guest Posted From: 24.22.187.33 |
Richard: That the thermostat article was subjected to much "righteous indignation" posturing on the part of an individual in the USA club is quite true. Here is an excerpt from the email that rejected the article for publication in the Flying Lady. The reason for rejection is quite clear. "Let me start off by saying that the article is well written, well researched and technically sound. There's a very delicate issue that comes into play, however - I am concerned how it might read at Crewe." One might note that the Crewe Geunuine Parts catalog does not contain any thermostats for the SY and SZ cars so this objection is clearly moot. But a bit of a controversy makes for an interesting read, don't you think? (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1084 Registered: 4-2003 |
I have now had the opportunity to read this article and I am of the opinion there are no technical or practical issues that would prevent publication. As the thermostat for SY/SZ cars is no longer listed as a genuine part, its future availablity will decrease [most likely accompanied by price inreases] as dealer stocks are exhausted. My major concern with the suggested replacement is that it does not have a jiggler as standard to relieve back pressure when filling the cooling system - as we are aware from other threads on this forum; air locks and associated intestinal noises have been encountered by DIY custodians. The article includes a description of how to fit a jiggler however I would prefer 2 - each one above the inlet from each bank to the thermostat housing. Some simple bench testing of the modified thermostat to verify its rgidity under load would be necessary before adopting this modification. As far as the fusible plugs on the R-R thermostat are concerned, I suspect these were a modification after testing by R-R to mitigate the effects of the jamming of the thermostats in the closed position during service. As the housing and spindle are made from the same type of stainless steel, these are very prone to galling when sliding over each other which will eventually result in seizure causing overheating if closed or low coolant temperature if open. The fusible plugs will allow increased coolant circulation through the radiator when overheating occurs but they are very prone to degradation in service reducing their life with the consequent specification of a a preventative maintenance replacement every 2 years by R-R. As evident from my past posts, I have always advocated purchasing genuine spare parts to ensure their continued availablity as our cars advance in years. Once genuine parts are no longer supplied by the manufacturer, we have no options other than looking for alternative commercially available products or encouraging the production of clones by enthusiasts/specialists with appropriate experience and facilities. I am not surprised with the USA Club rejection after my experience when the creation of an international technical archive was first proposed almost a decade ago. Both the US and UK clubs vetoed the idea for the same reasons used to reject this article. As we now know, the current holders of the copyright for R-R/B literature produced by Rolls-Royce Motor Cars Ltd have not obstructed the availablity of this material free-of-charge through the Australian Technical Library for the benfit of custodians no matter where they live in the world or whether they belong to a club. The authors of the article are to be commended for taking the time and effort to provide a possible solution to the problem of obtaining replacements for the genuine parts when they fail in the future and are no longer available from the factory. I believe publication with subsequent peer review and evaluation will be of future benefit to all of us. | ||
| A.R. Greenberg New User Username: bergxu Post Number: 7 Registered: 2-2012 |
I thought I heard somewhere that the Crewe warranty is a "no questions asked" guarantee in that if a genuine Crewe t-stat fails and cooks your engine, Crewe will be on the hook, no? Someone over on the RROC forum indicated that I thought. Then again, I am used to watching my dials from owning so many vintage cars, so its a non-issue for me, but I do use genuine stats in my cars. My only issue is that I buy them from Flying Spares, so I don't know if the Crewe guarantee or whatever it is would hold merit since the part did not come from an authorised agent... | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1093 Registered: 4-2003 |
I have never heard of this unconditional warranty and I do not think RRMC or Bentley would ever offer this type of warranty due to problems with determining if thermostat failure was the intiating cause or collateral damage afterwards. As the thermostat is a scheduled preventative maintenance item every 2 years, further problems arise for the DIY owner proving this schedule was followed if a claim was made. As always, I will welcome correction if this warranty exists. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2511 Registered: 4-2003 |
David, You may be sure of your comments above. There was a famous case around 1971 where the RROC (Inc) published an article in its national magazine by some fool about a substitute oil filter. It involved gluing a piece to a standard bypass filter and popping it into a Silver Shadow to save a dollar or two. I have this precious edition in my archives. It raised so much interest that several owners of Silver Shadows tried it out, and some of the cars were under Crewe warranty. Yep, the filters collapsed and destroyed at least two motors. Crewe honoured the warranty, but it is apparent that Crewe gave the RROC (Inc) a very tough time because the article suggested that the substitute was appropriate. Hence, the RROC (Inc) undertook never again to publish such material. The RROC (Inc) and Crewe had a rocky relationship for a while afterwards. Had the RROC (Inc) not published the article, you may be sure that Crewe would not have been apparently so generous as the recommendation was pure negligence. Note that BMW fits cartridge filter elements to the Phantom, 7-series and the like nowadays specifically to stop aftermarket filters from finding their way into those cars. Spin-on filters are too ubiquitous to be relied on for quality from all sources. There was a similar case to the Shadow disaster more recently in the USA with a spin-on filter conversion for MkVI and R-Type cars. The inventor recalled all the units when at least one motor failed. No warranty there, so Crewe didn’t care. Perhaps the above explains why the RROC (Inc) and the RROC (Aus) do not publish such articles, be they good or bad advice. They are careful not to be seen to condone any substitute parts in most situations, especially for newer cars. In the case of the thermostat I don't care because I use the reasonably-priced genuine ones in my three V8s. RT. | ||
| Brian Vogel Frequent User Username: guyslp Post Number: 69 Registered: 6-2009 |
A member in the US was very interested in getting warranty information from Crewe Original, and did so. Here's what he posted: Well, I spoke/wrote too soon....so I apologize to the Crewe crew. This morning I received a response from Bentley/Crewe. Attached was a copy of their "Customer Service and Parts Policy", page 42, from their Policy and Procedures 46-page manual (effective 16 June 2006). Highlights for the Limited Parts Warranty include: DURATION - Installed by Authorized Bentley Retailer (ABR): 1-yr parts and labor, 3-yr part only. Not installed by ABR: 1-yr part only. There is an exception for exhaust systems: if by ABR, 5-yrs parts and labor; not by ABR, 3-yr parts only. Replacement parts can be new or factory remanufactured. EXTENT OF COMPANY'S OBLIGATIONS - Part purchased from ABR, if failed during duration under normal use and service, will be replaced at ABR location. If part has been discontinued, Company only obligated to refund purchase price of part. Part failed during 1-yr labor duration, ABR will replace at no charge. ABR confirms that part is defective. EXCLUSIONS FROM WARRANTY POLICY -a) Batteries, Telephones, Tires; b) Maintenance Service Wear and Tear; c) Prohibited Activities; d) Consequential and Incidental Damages; e) Towing and Roadside Assistance; f) Electronic Components; g) Proof of Purchase Not Produced; h) Bentley Collection Branded Merchandise. The warranty is transferable to subsequent owners. The warranty does not appear to specifically cover damage to an engine if a Crewe thermostat fails. Also, the Prohibited Activities section includes reliability trials, if vehicle is registered and used outside Canada and the United States (and its territories), failure due to misuse/negligence/alteration, environmental damage, service/repair other than Company approved procedures, and fitting a part that does not conform to Company specs. No company offers a truly unconditional warranty on car parts, and Crewe even imposes differences in its warranty depending on who installs their parts (and, of course, I'm presuming correct installation). Brian, who is awaiting publication of the thermostat paper in several venues in the near future | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1095 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Brian, the most important information is the following exclusion: d) Consequential and Incidental Damages; Liability for engine damage due to thermostat failure is automatically eliminated by application of this exclusion. |
