| Author | Message | ||
     Roderick Waite New User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 9 Registered: 1-2012 |
Good afternoon. I have recently been plagued by a failure to idle on my 1984 Spirit, now resolved (see topic '1982 Spirit won'r run). Today, I took her out for the first time in 5 months, meaning to drive the 6km to the nearest petrol pump. Within 200 metres, the engine simply died. No misfiring, backfiring, or spluttering, simply stopped. Re-started fine, idled fine, but every time I apply power, the engine dies within seconds. I have recently noticed that when I switch on the ignition, the fuel pump makes a harsh, loud buzzing sound, whereas before it made a soft, purring sound. Right now, with the ignition on and engine off, it makes no sound at all. I suspect fuel starvation due to a faulty pump. Does anyone agree with that? What other suspects might there be? It has happened before the car's idling got so bad I could no longer drive her - the engine would suddenly cut out momentarily, then cut in again. Does that sound familiar? All experience and advice much valued. Thank you! Rod '84 Spirit | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 842 Registered: 6-2006 |
Undo the petrol feed pipe in the engine bay and put it in a can and see how quickly it fills up. You may need to hold the key in the crank position to energise the pump. Usually fuel starvation gives a misfire before dying. If fuel flow is ok, pull off a weakener to carburettor float chamber hose and try again. Then pull the king lead out of the distributor (so you can see it arking if you don't have a spark tester) and see what happens there. | ||
| Roderick Waite New User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 10 Registered: 1-2012 |
Hello Paul, and my jobs today will be exactly as you have specified! I did wonder at the totalness of the engine stoppage - I'd have expected a splutter or two if fuel was the problem. I've been trying to find that electrical contact cleaner 'Deoxit' or similar, and will again test the LT supply to the (new) coil - one has to remember the age of all these things ... thanks! One thing - the fuel pump has always made a noise of some kind when the ignition is switched on - but yesterday there was complete silence, which made me wonder if it has packed up ... yet the engine starts again at once, and will idle happily (well, almost happily) so it must be getting fuel from somewhere! Weird, huh? Rod | ||
| Roderick Waite Experienced User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 11 Registered: 1-2012 |
An update! The fuel pump was not making any noise because Echo is one of the cars fitted with a fuel pump cut-out switch worked by oil pressure. This has clearly failed because the pump used to run whether or not there was any oil pressure - now it's switched the other way! It's just in front of the engine oil filter, and I've disconnected it. The pump now runs whenever the ignition is on. Reverting to my original problem, not idling, which has re-surfaced, am I right in thinking that the ONLY source of vacuum is the tube from the intake msnifold to the anti-diesel valve? It all keeps me out of mischief! Stay well Rod | ||
| Roderick Waite Experienced User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 12 Registered: 1-2012 |
Good afternoon. I have decided the appliance of science is better than stabbing about in the dark, so have acquired a vacuum gauge, courtesy of Messrs: Gunson. This tells me that the vacuum in the engine inlet manifold is steady at 19.5" Hg at 1200rpm (throttle slightly open, engine warm), while that from the throttle butterfly valves is 14" Hg at the same throttle setting. I think this is good? Contrary to my previous belief, the weakening device vacuum originates at the throttle butterfly valves, and not the inlet manifold. Now I am puzzled, as I think the vacuum actually in the weakening device itself should only be 0.2" Hg. This seems extremely small, and will barely register on my Gunson gauge. I guess that this tiny vacuum is achieved via the adjuster screw on top of the weakening device? Can anyone tell me if the 0.2" Hg is correct, and the adjustment is done by that screw, please? Also, immediately above the weakening device signal cap, is a hose that disappears under the engine - I can't get under my car, so can anyone tell me what it does and where it goes, please? Thanks! Rod '84 Spirit | ||
| Chris Browne Frequent User Username: chrisb Post Number: 78 Registered: 2-2010 |
Hello Rod, Re your question "Also, immediately above the weakening device signal cap, is a hose that disappears under the engine - I can't get under my car, so can anyone tell me what it does and where it goes, please? " This pipe is the outlet from the float chamber vent valve. The pipe runs down to the bottom of the engine and is clamped parallel to the float chamber drain valve outlet which is where excess fuel is vented if the float chambers in the carburettors overfill. The pipe is open to atmosphere at the bottom and you just need to ensure that it is not blocked or restricted by road dirt, congealed oil etc. Hope this helps. Kind regards, Chris | ||
| Roderick Waite Experienced User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 13 Registered: 1-2012 |
Hello Chris, and thank you! Another difficulty solved! All I need do is blow down the tube to ensure it's clear. That 'float chamber vent valve' mystifies me! There appears to be no connection whatsoever to the float chambers! Unless there's a drilling through the (O-ring sealed) plug it sits in, to connect it with the fuel receiver underneath it? There's nothing shown on the sectioned drawing in the Manual. Stay well Rod | ||
| Jeff Young Frequent User Username: jeyjey Post Number: 66 Registered: 10-2010 |
That o-ring sealed plug houses the one-way valve (so the fuel receiver can only vent excess pressure; it must draw air in via the weakener filter). See the picture at the bottom of the Excessive Fuel Consumption thread. Cheers, Jeff | ||
| Jeff Young Frequent User Username: jeyjey Post Number: 67 Registered: 10-2010 |
Oh, and the workshop manual says you should get a 2" depression with a water manometer connected to the signal cap. (That's at 2000 rpm in neutral.) Assuming a vacuum guage is just a mercury manometer, mercury has a density 13.5 times water so you'd be looking for 0.15" mercury. And yes, the adjustment is done at the screw on the top next to the hose we were disucssing. The manual states that for a high reading you should first rule out: a) an obstruction in the weakening device bleed orifice (which the screw adjusts), b) obstructed weakening device air filter c) obstructed weakening device air filter hose d) incorrect operation an anit-run-on solenoid But given that you're right at the edge of the range your vacuum guage reads, it might just be that the guage isn't accurate to 0.15 vs. 0.20. Jeff. | ||
| Nigel Johnson Frequent User Username: nigel_johnson Post Number: 65 Registered: 12-2008 |
Hi Rod, Take the carbs off and have a look, please! Regards, Nigel. | ||
| Peter Talbot Prolific User Username: squerryes Post Number: 103 Registered: 7-2010 |
Rod Sounds like "Echo" is real sick !! I would agree with Jeff that your present manometer is at the limit of it's range/accuracy. Suggestion : build yourself a water manometer - if you Google : "Water Manometer" you will find several sites with instructions. Regards Peter | ||
| Roderick Waite Experienced User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 14 Registered: 1-2012 |
Thank you Jeff - today I'm checking the operation of the drain valve non-return valve, and the setting of the weakener venturi - the other items have been checked previously (more than once!). Hello Peter! Your suggestion is right on! I'm looking for clear plastic tube in order to do just that! I reckon about a 9" differential will cover the degree of vacuum involved. Thanks! I have heeded your advice, Nigel, and am not just ignoring it ... but I'm an amateur at this and SUs fill me with foreboding! Once I have eliminated less complex possibilities I will seriously think of stripping the carbs - starting with the dashpots and working down! I've read the Manual instructions a few times ... ! My thanks to all - I'm bound to get there! Rod | ||
| Benoit Leus Experienced User Username: benoitleus Post Number: 27 Registered: 6-2009 |
Hi Roderick, I've just finished rebuilding the carbs on my Shadow 2, which I believe to be +/- the same as on your Spirit. It is very straightforward, so no need to be afraid of it. | ||
| Roderick Waite Experienced User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 15 Registered: 1-2012 |
Thanks Benoit ... it's just that I'm not convinced the carbs are at fault, and I fear I might wreck a perfectly good set-up! In order to complete my current projected series of tests, I now need to buy a 2 ton trolley jack, a pair of stands, a pair of internal circlip pliers, and a couple of feet of clear plastic tube ... nothing's ever simple! Well done with your carbs:! May she purr like the cat that got the cream. I look forward to that day! Rod | ||
| Nigel Johnson Frequent User Username: nigel_johnson Post Number: 66 Registered: 12-2008 |
Hi Rod, don't be afraid, just take the whole setup off and clean out the float chambers. One bolt, a few electrical connections throttle linkage and the fuel pipes. Simples. regards, Nigel. | ||
| Peter Talbot Prolific User Username: squerryes Post Number: 104 Registered: 7-2010 |
Rod Word of caution for water manometer: you don't want any water to be sucked into the system so essential that you include an upstream in-line reservoir bottle between the manometer and the engine, capable of containing all the water in the manometer, in case things go wrong. Peter | ||
| Roderick Waite Experienced User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 16 Registered: 1-2012 |
Hello Peter - good advice! I did wonder if Echo would suddenly become a steam engine! I made myself a water manometer today, and there is a very small vacuum in the weakener, amounting to one single inch of water! Should be two and a half inches, so I had a look at the venturi chamber, which has an 'anti-tamper' metal cap over it. It works, 'cos I can't get it out! Tried a powerful magnet, no go. How does one get this cap out? Or does one simply use force? Drill a hole in it and prise it out with a spike? Gratifyingly, but inconsistently, today Echo started immediately and ran like a dream! Everything functioned as per book, and once the choke came off she ticked over steadily for as long as I wanted (a little fast as I tweaked the idle stop screw a bit). I'm still baffled, but encouraged! Once I can get past the anti-tamper cap, I can re-set the venturi screw to yield 2½" water in the weakener. I'll use a buffering container though - just in case I overdo it ... Stay well Rod | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1075 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Rod, Onward ever onward - the latest news suggests Echo is starting to behave herself to avoid future major surgery where you are learning as you go! Has she been reading your posts about your reluctance to start overhauling the carburettors? This might prove to be to your advantage  !! | ||
| Roderick Waite Experienced User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 17 Registered: 1-2012 |
Good morning David - you have a point! Worrying to many people, I sit in Echo and explain what I'm going to do, and why. Maybe she does listen! I was further encouraged yesterday, as after I posted, I went out again - she'd been cooling for an hour or so, which is when she won't start ... but she did! I'm sticking to my current course of adjusting the venturi gap (when I get this anti-tamper cap off!), then WD40ing the drain valve non-return and weakener cut-off valves. I forgot, but yesterday I also sprayed the electrical connector block immediately in front of the driver's bulkhead with contact cleaner. Every little helps ... I haven't forgotten the carburettors (although I'm trying to ... ) but yesterday, you see, she ran steadily at a fast idle for a half hour, picking up instantly and smoothly, then settling back to a fast idle ... it's this inconsistency of symptoms that makes me doubt ... Stay well Rod | ||
| Roderick Waite Experienced User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 20 Registered: 1-2012 |
Let Joy be unconfined ... having exhausted all other possibilities ... I propose to start on the carburettors as a means of curing my '84 Spirit of her inability to idle. The consensus is that she's running too weak, so the first port of call is to be the jets. I shall remove the dashpots and pistons (with due care and ensuring they don't get mixed up) and peer into the innards to establish whether or not the jets are obstructed in any way, or too high set in the body. I'm advised the tops of the jets should be about one sixteenth of an inch below the body, so that's my starting point. Rod | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1077 Registered: 4-2003 |
Rod - do not be overly concerned about working on the carburettors, they are not as daunting as you think right now. Just make sure you have a suitable bench to work on and plenty of space to lay the parts out on in sequence as you remove them. They are subject to the same blockages as conventional carburettors. Being a variable venturi design, the piston is susceptible to jamming due to deposit build up over time and the setting of the needle is important to get the mixture right. It would be good practice to purchase the service kits for your carburettors [get the ethanol-compatible version in case you ever have to use ethanol blended fuel in an emergency - I am not a fan of ethanol blends]. You should also overhaul the fuel pumps with the ethanol compatible kit at this time. Burlen UK is your source: http://www.sucarb.co.uk/ Proceed carefully and keep the workshop manual handy - you will find the overhaul less difficult than you expected. | ||
| Roderick Waite Experienced User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 21 Registered: 1-2012 |
Thank you David - I have been reading the Workshop Manual most carefully, in particular the function of the bi-metal adjusting blade, via which the mixture adjusting screw works. I am a little alarmed (?) to find that this mixture adjusting screw is set under controlled conditions, and then sealed at the factory. However, that doesn't alter my original intention to check the position of the jet - 27 years is a long time! Your advice will be followed to the letter, and I shall do one carb at a time, starting by marking the dashpot and the body to ensure re-assembly the same way round. I am hoping the setting of the needle will become more clear in the flesh, than it is in the Manual! I have the service kits (Burlen CSK 82s), but I can't get at the fuel pump as I can't get under the car. I'll have to leave that, but it does seem to be working normally. Quite looking forward to this afternoon, when the outside temperature reaches maximum for today and I can get started! Lovely sunny day, too. Stay well Rod | ||
| Roderick Waite Experienced User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 22 Registered: 1-2012 |
I have taken off the 'A' bank dashpot of my 1984 Spirit - a couple of surprises (to me!). There is no gasket, just a metal to metal joint. OK? Second, the piston is free in the pot, giving a 'tap' at the top, and a 'klonk' at the bottom of its travel. But it will not come out of the pot, there seems a definite mechanical stop when the bottom face of the piston crown is level with the bottom of the pot. Is that right? The needle is clean, with about a sixteenth of an inch straight shank showing below its housing before the taper starts. However, the spring loading keeps it off-centre, biased towards the front of the car, rather than keeping it in the centre. Am I mis-understanding something here? And guys, you're right, the process so far has been encouragingly simple. Thanks, Rod. | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 315 Registered: 1-2008 |
The needle bias is as it should be. Many carbs of this type offset the needle in the jet which often results in the steel needle eventually wearing a groove in the softer brass jet orifice amd thereby upsetting the mixture at low throttle openings. If you have a copy of a PDF reader on your computer there's no shame in wimping out to RTFM! Hell, I've even been known to do it myself on occasion. (Actually the first purchase I make after buying another car is to get a workshop manual for it. Please keep this info under your hat as it could undermine my reputation as a source of unending technical data on such a wide range of motorised transport.) | ||
| Jeff Young Frequent User Username: jeyjey Post Number: 71 Registered: 10-2010 |
I too have both PDF and paper copies of the workshop manual. I use the PDFs most of the time (for research, trouble-shooting, or familiarizing myself with a subsystem), but when I'm actually wrenching on the car I find a laptop screen too hard to read. Cheers, Jeff. | ||
| Roderick Waite Experienced User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 23 Registered: 1-2012 |
I do RTFM most anxiously, but details are often nowhere near where you expect them to be! On my car, the needle appears to be brass, or brass colour, while the jet seems to be steel, or bright plated. Both on both carbs look in good fettle and at text-book settings. I have cleaned the dashpot bores (slightly claggy but not impeding the pistons) and checked the settings, and re-assembled the carbs. The car started at once (with a whiff of blue smoke, which is a first). Fast idled fine, but as soon as the choke came off, idling got lumpy and the engine stalled on engaging the drive. No change! Dammit! However, by giving her a bit of throttle I got her to run up and down the driveway a few times, just to keep things turning over. When I got her back in the garage, the engine did not die down to idle on releasing the pedal - it continued to rev and only slowly died down. I checked the idle screw was right on its stop, which it was. So another mystery! I'm sure I'd have gone grey over this by now, if I weren't already grey ... Stay well Rod | ||
| Jeff Young Frequent User Username: jeyjey Post Number: 72 Registered: 10-2010 |
Rod, It's possible you have worn spindle bores or throttle linkages. With the car idling, try pushing the throttle linkage right at the carb back and forth and up and down (but not rotating) and see if anything changes. If the idle goes up and down, you may have air leaking in around the spindle shaft. If the linkages are worn, positional shifting of the engine can cause changes in idle. My car has a bit of this which sometimes causes it to stall when going around very slow right-angle corners. Lastly, did you check the float levels when you had the carb apart? Cheers, Jeff | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 316 Registered: 1-2008 |
The reluctance to drop back to idle strongly indicates that something isn't as free to move as you first thought. Sticky dashpots would be my first thought, although any of the joints along the complicated system of levers connecting the throttle butterflies could also be the culprit. If it's just one carb that's at fault it would explain the lumpy idle with 4 cylinders running fast and 4 running slow - or at least trying to. Are you 100% certain that you didn't accidently swap over the dashpots? However the whiff of blue smoke, lumpy idle and bogging down when engaging the gearbox tends to point to a mixture error. Although too weak or too rich would cause similar symptoms I would suspect a too rich mixture at idle. I have much the same symptoms on RSH24518, as they're mostly related to starting on LPG which is almost cetainly running rich with the choke flap closed. | ||
| Roderick Waite Experienced User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 24 Registered: 1-2012 |
Thanks Jeff and Jan - food for thought! Jeff, there is slight vertical movement of the 'B' bank carb spindle. Just tried it without the engine - so a possibility. I'll try it with the engine running next time. And that was my very first sign of trouble - the engine stalling on a steep corner! Suddenly no steering! Stone wall imminent! Panic! I didn't have the carbs off, just the dashpots, which I cleaned out (not bad) and replaced, measuring the position of the needles and jets for similarity, so I couldn't check the float levels. I haven't pursued that particular issue too hard as there has been, or is, any sign of petrol venting from the chambers. Jan, I did notice the slightest of hesitations on the travel of 'B' bank dashpot - about halfway. I could neither see nor feel any reason for this, and it did not repeat, so I assumed it may have been the piston tilting just enough, everything having been cleaned. But it's something to remember and check again. There was no chance of mixing the dashpots up, as I did each separately, re-assembling 'A' before I started on 'B'. My instinct on the problem, all along, is that it's a mixture problem. I expected to find fault with the needle/jet settings, but they were text-book. If the jet had been worn by the needle, it should be too rich BUT - she fast idles perfectly with the choke on (therefore rich), but becomes lumpy when the choke goes off. She also pops and flaffs in the silencers (I think both), which suggests a weak mixture. I am at a loss as to how to remove the anti-tamper caps over the mixture setting screw, or I'd have a go at tweaking and listening to the result! Most interesting. Thanks! Rod | ||
| Ken Wragg Unregistered guest Posted From: 203.217.31.17 |
Just had the same problems with my SpiritI thought it was fuel, But it turned out to be the Lucas Distributer Had a Bosch distributor fitted by Bob Chapman in Melbourne Now runs like a bird (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Roderick Waite Experienced User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 25 Registered: 1-2012 |
Hello Ken ... and eeek! A complication - I've had the distributor cap replaced, as well as the rotor arm, coil, leads, and plugs. No change. HOWEVER - I have now found a genuine Rolls Royce service shop in France, about 200km away, and we're talking about them sending a transporter up to collect Echo, and putting her on their test-bench to establish what the problem really is - and then fixing it! They'll get the CT done as well, so she can be driven back home legally. The shop is Continental Automobiles, in Villeneuve-sur-Lot, a branch of Frank Dale and Stepsons in the UK. So I'm hoping my woes are at an end! Watch this space ... Stay well Rod | ||
| Peter Talbot Prolific User Username: squerryes Post Number: 106 Registered: 7-2010 |
Rod I'm not familiar with Continental Automobiles in Villeneuve-sur-Lot but Frank Dale & Stepsons-UK have an A1 reputation. I looked at their UK price list: http://www.frankdale.com/workshop/169-servicing For a RR Silver Spirit 1980-1986 the prices for a UK service are: 6000 miles Schedule A = £510 12000 miles Schedule B = £595 24000 miles Schedule C = £765 All plus VAT and Parts - for basic service Schedules these sounds pretty expensive to me. Peter | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 317 Registered: 1-2008 |
Since some relatively 'basic' UK main dealerships (Ford, Vauxhall, et al) are charging upwards of £80 per hour for labour those charges suddenly don't seem all that excessive. It's still a lot more than I would pay though. | ||
| Roderick Waite Experienced User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 27 Registered: 1-2012 |
Hello Peter and Jan, I've no idea what Continental's rates are, but I'm hoping they can fix the problem at a sustainable cost. I've been quoted £78 an hour in the UK (VAT inc and £50 an hour here (TVA inc for similar agencies - I can but hope! We just don't have the choice you lucky UK guys have! I think Frank Dale's charges include a valeting as well as the service. Echo was serviced 18 months ago (Schedule B) plus several new bits, and has done less than 3000 miles since, thanks to this 'won't idle' problem I've had since last August. Continental will be shepherding her through the CT as well (France's rigorous MoT) so I'm hoping nothing expensive crops up there! Peter, Continental is a branch of Frank Dale, under their jurisdiction. They also have a branch in Japan! The only other facility is in Paris, and the guy I need to talk to there is away until the 22 March - and they're really interested in selling me a new Roller rather than fixing old ones! No soul ... Stay well Rod | ||
| Roderick Waite Experienced User Username: rodwaite Post Number: 28 Registered: 1-2012 |
Afternoon all, just to say that after a farcical interlude getting a transporter for Echo, she is now safely in the hands of M: Teissier at Continental Autos in Villeneuve-s-Lot, and has been since Monday morning. I await the verdict and proposed course of action with some trepidation! I will be very interested in the cause of the problem, and will report further in due course. | ||
| richard george yeaman Grand Master Username: richyrich Post Number: 498 Registered: 4-2012 |
Hi Roderick I was wondering if you ever got to the root cause of your problems I have a friend with a !982 Spirit that is having some difficulties and if I knew what the conclusion was it might help some other soul as well. Richard. |
