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Mark Aldridge
Experienced User
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 50
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Saturday, 03 December, 2011 - 10:22:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

My 1982 Spirit has developed a fault recently whereby tickover is smooth,but on gentle acceleration away from standstill the engine tries to stall and will not pull. Gentle pulling away on a hill is virtually impossible . The problem can be overcome by accelerating hard when pulling away but this is not practical when parking!!.
I have replaced plugs and leads and the cap and rotor arm look OK. The problem is worse with a hot engine.The carb floats were relaced about 4000 miles ago.
Any advice greatfully received Mark
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Nigel Johnson
Frequent User
Username: nigel_johnson

Post Number: 54
Registered: 12-2008
Posted on Sunday, 04 December, 2011 - 06:22:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Could be sticky pistons in the dashpots.Regards, Nigel.
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Nigel Johnson
Frequent User
Username: nigel_johnson

Post Number: 55
Registered: 12-2008
Posted on Sunday, 04 December, 2011 - 06:24:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Or, perhaps an air leak.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2464
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 04 December, 2011 - 16:43:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

More like sediment in a fuel bowl. That allows a small amount of fuel as required for idling, but starves the fuel as soon as demand increases.

It happened to a friend's Silver Shadow last night, a car which is gradually cleaning out its fuel tank after disuse. On that car, a good thrashing cleared it all out in 30 seconds. That is standard procedure for a car which has been laid up or seldom driven.

RT.
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Jan Forrest
Prolific User
Username: got_one

Post Number: 291
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Sunday, 04 December, 2011 - 21:26:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I'd be more inclined to suspect one or both main jets or needles to be badly worn. If this was the case there would be quite a bit of overfuelling just off the idle position of the throttle until the carb piston(s) moved up to a less worn part of the needle(s). This is common if the needles have been offset rather than being central in the jets.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2465
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 04 December, 2011 - 22:22:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

C'm on. Badly worn SU needles start to annoy after a few decades.
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Jan Forrest
Prolific User
Username: got_one

Post Number: 292
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Sunday, 04 December, 2011 - 23:58:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

On some cars the needles are deliberately offset and can start to cause fluctuations in the mixture across the rpm range after quite a short time. If one or both needles have been set up incorrectly or been bent the steel needles will eroded the softer brass of the jets in similar time period. A previous owner or mechanic might have dropped a dashpot piston and not checked or noticed a slight bend in the needle.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 829
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, 05 December, 2011 - 05:41:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Mark , try taking the weakener hose off the float chamber and re road test and report back.
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Mark Aldridge
Frequent User
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 51
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Monday, 05 December, 2011 - 08:29:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks everyone for your suggestions. I have been out in the car today ,and tried the following

1 Spray carb cleaner through solenoid valves on weakener and recconect: No improvement, possibly runs worse with poor pickup on load and some spitting back through exhaust.
2 Disconnect switch on weakener and short out plug connecting to switch : some improvement but fault not cured.

3 A hard thrash,not easy with 70 mph speedlimit :
No real effect

4 a vacuum reading from the vac supply to the air intake temp flap when hot was 10 ins Hg. I was expecting 16-18 ins Hg based on MG's.

5 The hiss from the carbs at tickover with the dashpot dampers off was about even.

Paul I have to use the car in the morning so will do as you suggest and report findings
Thanks Mark.
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Bill Coburn
Moderator
Username: bill_coburn

Post Number: 1328
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, 05 December, 2011 - 11:04:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

My contribution. Also disconnect and blank off the the engine anti-run on lines to the top of the carburetters. What about the fuel filters (3)?? and check the pump output? Were the float levels set with the new items. These are not preset!
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Mark Aldridge
Frequent User
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 52
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Monday, 05 December, 2011 - 20:56:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Paul,This morning,drove 10 miles with weakener hoses removed and there was no difference. The car sat for 5mins switched off and then came 10 miles home. The home run was awful; poor pickup from idle and a gentle creep up the slope on my drive was near impossible.Also, had spitting through both exhausts on gentle throttle movement when driving at about 45mph cross country with the engine attempting to cut out and then pickup.
I checked HT voltage with a Gunsons Spark tester in series with a plug at idle and this was showing 15kv plus.Ialso tried running the engine with all ? vacc outlets blocked but this had no effect on improvement.
I am puzzled as the running seems to be worse when the engine is hot or has been run stopped for a short time(5 mins) and then restarted. Also fuel consumption is poor,10mpg maybe?
Do both carbs feed all cylinders or does each carb feed 4 cyls?
Bill,The car has done 4000 miles without trouble since the carb floats were changed in 4 months; this problem has developed over the last 300 miles.I will check fuel flow and filters, but the car will happily hold 70 mph and pull away but acceleration to 70 seems slow.
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Mark Aldridge
Frequent User
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 53
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Tuesday, 06 December, 2011 - 00:44:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Lunchtime ,I removed No. 3 plug drivers and No.2 plug passengers. both were black and petrolly and appeared to be contributing little. I removed No.2 plug drivers and not quite as bad as the others was certainly not fully contributing. The plugs are BPR4EX.
Is it fuel or spark, Im puzzled.
Mark
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Jan Forrest
Prolific User
Username: got_one

Post Number: 293
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Tuesday, 06 December, 2011 - 01:10:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

IIRC cylinders 1&4 on one bank and 2&3 on the opposite bank are fed via the carb on the 2/3 side of the engine. That's how I traced an imbalance in my carbs which was putting the emissions outside the MOT permitted levels. It would seem that the fuel isn't being fully burnt in all cylinders and could be something just as simple as a blocked air filter or it could be a stuck choke flap not fully opening as it should. it certainly points strongly to my first guesstimate that the engine is overfuelling. When the carb floats were replaced did you also fit new float needles and housings? If not they could be worn and allowing too much fuel to the main jet.

TTBOMK the BPR4 plugs are a little hotter running than the 5 equivalents and certainly shouldn't be oiling up under normal circumstances. I changed my plugs for the Iridium versions and The Old Girl has run very well on them. I'm not certain if you can get them in a 4 variant.
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Mark Aldridge
Frequent User
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 54
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Tuesday, 06 December, 2011 - 04:55:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jan, thanks this is food for thought.The aircleaner was new 5k miles ago ,and choke flapis ok, stove pipes were replaced 4k miles. The float needles were not replaced.
I have BPR4 iridiums in my Bentley8,BPR5 iridiums in my Shadpw1 and BentleyS1. The S1 burns oil via the guides, but has not yet fouled an iridium plug in 8K miles and runs sweetley.The Spirit belongs to my son and this problem is confusing us.Due to the heat effect, is a dodgy coil a possibility ?and is the coil a standard Lucas ballasted ?
Mark
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Jan Forrest
Prolific User
Username: got_one

Post Number: 294
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Tuesday, 06 December, 2011 - 05:38:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

AFAIA the Spirits are basically just Shadow 3's and use the same kind of external resistor to 'ballast' the coil except under starting conditions when the coil should see the full 12 volts (or whatever's left after the starter motor takes the lion's share) from the battery.

The symptoms you previously described indicate (at least to me) that both carbs are running rich with the passenger side being slightly richer than the other side. Although it's possible that both sides could have gone wrong at much the same time if not in exactly the same way then it's much more probable that a single fault that a common to both carbs will be the the main underlying cause. Its called 'Occam's razor' as the theory that given a series of facts anything that is common to all of them is the simplest and therefore the most likely root.
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Roderick Waite
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Posted From: 86.207.226.149
Posted on Wednesday, 07 December, 2011 - 08:18:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hello, I'm Rod Waite, an Englishman living in France, but I am told I may post here as a guest.

I've been reading this thread with great interest, for I have a similar problem with my 1984 Spirit (ECH 09680), except that she won't idle - simply stops after a few misfires. She also tends to cut out at low speed, but cuts in again, and always stalls when I stop. Runs fine at speeds in excess of about 45mph. Problem seems worse when hot. Both cold start and hot start OK.

I've disconnected and blocked off the rubber tube from the anti-diesel solenoid (no change). I have measured the fuel flow to the carburettors (OK at 2 litres per minute). I have checked the weakener air filter and hose (OK). All plugs, ignition leads, distributor cap and rotor arm have been replaced. I am awaiting a new coil. The car ran perfectly until about 3 months ago now, when all this began to go wrong, and has steadily worsened over that time. I am baffled, but now suspect the auto-choke (hot idle compensator?) or the weakener device. So everything along these lines is of great interest.

Thank you for listening!

Stay well

Rod Waite

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Roderick Waite
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Posted From: 86.207.226.149
Posted on Wednesday, 07 December, 2011 - 08:23:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Many thanks to David Gore for advising me of this facility!

Kind regards

Rod Waite

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Roderick Waite
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 90.5.138.186
Posted on Thursday, 08 December, 2011 - 02:34:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I'm a bit baffled by a couple of references! Paul (Yorke) wrote of 'taking the weakener hose off the float chamber ... ' - to what are you referring when you say 'float chamber' please?

Bill (Coburn) also writes of 'blank off the anti run-on lines to the top of the carburettors' ... the anti run-on line (from the anti-diesel solenoid) is connected to the intake manifold, not the carburettors, so am I looking at the wrong bit, please?

My new ignition coil arrived today, so I'll report back after I've fitted it!

Thanks and regards

Rod Waite

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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 830
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, 08 December, 2011 - 08:28:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi,

The float chambers are under the dash pots and only accessible one the carbs are off the car.

Both chambers have rubber hoses going to them. These go off to to the weakener / anti diesel devices.

if you take the rubber hose off the front of the left carb it eliminates the anti-diesel valve and weakener systems from both carbs.

Disconnecting the hose to the anti diesel valve will actually make the mixture a bit weaker. Blocking it off is ok though.

The carbs are designated HIF as the float chambers are integrated into the carbs unlike the earlier ones which had a separate float chamber attached to one side.
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Jeff Young
Frequent User
Username: jeyjey

Post Number: 61
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Thursday, 08 December, 2011 - 19:54:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Just to clarify Paul's post: you have to take the carbs off to adjust the float levels etc., but you won't need to just to disconnect the anti-run-on/weakener hoses.

(They act by communicating the intake vacuum to the float chambers, which makes the fuel harder to suck out thereby weakening the mixture. That's why there's also a hose to the intake manifold.)

Jeff.
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Roderick Waite
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 86.221.25.143
Posted on Thursday, 08 December, 2011 - 22:39:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thank you Paul and Jeff, we do speak the same language! What puzzles me is that the hoses to the carbs from the weakener device come from the fuel receiver of the weakener (which I have seen referred to as a 'float-chamber', hence my question). I think this receives overflow fuel from the carbs? So if the hoses are disconnected, the overflow would then drip onto the engine block? Forgive the questions, I'm very much an amateur at this sort of thing ...

Kindest regards

Rod

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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 831
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, 09 December, 2011 - 07:38:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

rod, not so much over the block . . . more over the exhaust manifold and spark plug leads.

If you have fuel coming out of there you already have a major problem. The floats or needle valves must have failed!

Have you got fuel coming out of the overflow? You haven't mentioned it if you have.

Taking the hoses off and driving it is a test, not a cure.

:-)
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Roderick Waite
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 86.213.92.187
Posted on Friday, 09 December, 2011 - 20:23:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hello Paul, I've not smelt petrol under the bonnet with the engine running, so I imagine that there's no overflow - and therefore no fault with the floats or needles (I hope!). Bearing in mind that I have already blocked off the suction side of the anti-diesel solenoid, what would removing the hose from the bottom of 'B' bank carburettor be testing?

Thanks

Rod

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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 832
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Saturday, 10 December, 2011 - 08:18:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Talk about leading a horse to water . . . .

Rod, why are you so reluctant to take the hose off? This is the best and safest test unless you have a manometer to hand. R-R & Bentleys is what I do. www.EverythingRollsRoyce.com

I am not sure what hose you have blocked but I have a feeling that could make the problem worse.

Unless the hose is off the float chamber you MAY have am excessive vacuum in the float chamber. Take it off the A or B bank catb. Your choice. B bank is much easier to reach. Pull one off the bottom of the weakener where they are a V if you like.

Then see if the car is any better.

If it is exactly the same you can eliminate the anti-run on and weakener systems.

Rod, I suspect your fault is probably the anti-diesel / run on valve. Did you try reconnecting everything - ignition on - tapping it with a screwdriver / spanner and then restarting the car?.
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Roderick Waite
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 90.5.139.68
Posted on Sunday, 11 December, 2011 - 18:55:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I'm sorry Paul ... the hose I've blocked off is on the engine side of the anti-run-on solenoid, which is why I queried what disconnecting the B bank carburettor hose from the weakener would actually be testing - OK, I guess it'll be testing the weakener, so I'll do it anyway!

One of my many probs is that the car does not present the same symptoms. For example, time before last I started her, she fast idled up to normal running temperature, then idled (not smoothly, but kept going) for a further 10 minutes. The last time (yesterday) she was hard to start, then didn't fast idle (I had floored the pedal once) and if I took my foot off, she simply stopped. Same thing once she was up to temperature - foot off, stopped (with a cough or two). Yet she revs smoothly and holds high revs without a murmur.

I will re-assemble the anti-run-on connections, try it, and then pull off the connection from the weakener to B bank carb and try again. I will also replace the ignition coil, the new one having now arrived.

I did try tapping the solenoid before taking off the hose. but will do so again as I can't remember if I switched the ignition on! Doh!

I'll report back when I've done all that, if I may. Be a couple of days as Life gets in the way of Important Stuff like this ... !

Thank you as always

Rod

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Brian Vogel
Experienced User
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 49
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Monday, 12 December, 2011 - 01:14:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Rod,

Since you're already tearing things apart in this system now is also a good time to take those solenoids off (and don't mix them up) and give them a good soaking inside with penetrating oil. They have a tendency to get sticky over the years and this treatment loosens things up again and lasts for quite a while. I also test mine while they're off since you can easily see/feel if they're opening/closing.

You might also consider replacing vacuum hoses, one at a time, and checking after each replacement to see if anything has changed for better or worse.

Brian
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Roderick Waite
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 90.5.139.68
Posted on Monday, 12 December, 2011 - 01:39:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hello Brian - thanks! The anti-run-on solenoid is pretty well new, the other (which I think weakens the mixture at cruising speed) looks OEM, and is the most likely to be sticky. I bow to experience, but you gave me palpitations spraying WD40 into an electrical component!?!

I inspected the vacuum hoses, all of which seem and feel new. One fault, in the weakener air intake filter line, a small split repaired with black tape.

My next task though, is fitting overhead lights in my carport. We're approaching the shortest day, and it's gloomy in there! It helps to be able to see what you're doing!

Keep well

Rod

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Brian Vogel
Experienced User
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 50
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Monday, 12 December, 2011 - 07:18:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Rod,

Worry not, in that the solenoid is pretty much nothing but an electromagnet. If you search these very forums, or maybe the Tee-One Topics Archive you'll learn that I'm not the first nor only person to use this technique on a sticky solenoid. What's getting the penetrating oil is the mechanical rather than electrical area.

Brian, who's never seen a solenoid burst into flame after this treatment [and who has seen some "interesting" tricks involving WD40 and open flame]
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Mark Aldridge
Frequent User
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 55
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Wednesday, 14 December, 2011 - 08:46:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

An update!!I have changed the coil as a precaution (easy option) and have some improvement in running,but still have a reluctance to pull away on gentle acceleration.
The blanking cap on the weakener has been drilled with a 2mm hole at some time this presumably stopping the weakener functioning.
Will re check the plugs and then probably remove the carbs at the weekend and recheck float heights etc .
Mark
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 834
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, 14 December, 2011 - 19:36:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The blanking cap on the weakener has been drilled with a 2mm hole at some time this presumably stopping the weakener functioning.

Blanking cap is just an anti tamper cap. As long as everything is ok under the cap (lock nut and adjuster) the cap has no effect.

The hole has probably been drilled to allow the cap to be hooked out. Possibly to enable adjusting or tampering, depending on who did it! :-)

It may also be a clue to having a previous fault. Maybe build a manometer and adjust it?
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Mark Aldridge
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Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 56
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Wednesday, 14 December, 2011 - 22:35:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Paul, sorry for confusion, the hole is in the cap which screws over the manometer connection. The aluminium cap over the adjuster appears to have been "mullered" also.
Mark
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 835
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, 15 December, 2011 - 00:23:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Ah OK,

definitely had somebody who should never be allowed near the car, let alone open the bonnet, working on the car!

Hate it when that happens! Probably a case for a Fresh start from basics and working backwards from there!

Good luck with her!
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Roderick Waite
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 86.221.38.181
Posted on Wednesday, 14 December, 2011 - 19:58:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Mark and Paul, encouraging about the coil - I'm about to fit a new one (as you say, it's an easy option!), But the inconsistency of my symptoms has caused me to think around them, and it seems to me that faulty linkages might offer a solution, so I'm going to check them after the coil.

I notice no-one has yet mentioned the auto-choke, which is my next suspect after the weakener (which itself is after the linkages). Is that because it's never gone wrong?

Rod

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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 836
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, 15 December, 2011 - 08:44:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Coils can give strange faults, as can Dizzy cap, rotor arm, Ht leads (including King lead).

Chokes do give problems, but it is pretty easy to see what the choke is doing from the linkage on the outside. If it is up, it is open, down is closed.

From cold, the flap will be down and sprung tightly closed. Once the engine is running the spring tension will slowly release and the linkage will rise until fully hot and then the spring tension will firmly upwards.
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Jan Forrest
Prolific User
Username: got_one

Post Number: 296
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Thursday, 15 December, 2011 - 10:38:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

"From cold, the flap will be down and sprung tightly closed. Once the engine is running the spring tension will slowly release and the linkage will rise until fully hot and then the spring tension will firmly upwards."

This is not quite correct as the choke flap will be in the same position it was when the engine was last shut off. Most of the time this will be fully open as few people will have used the car for a trip of less than several miles so that the flap controls will have opened it. However it needs a good stab at the loud pedal for it to 'reset' to fully closed before starting the car - at least on petrol. LPG can be another kettle of fish however ...
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Roderick Waite
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Posted From: 86.207.160.182
Posted on Saturday, 17 December, 2011 - 02:25:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks Paul, that's very useful - the choke link has always seemed to be down (when I've noticed it), so the butterfly would be closed ... and as Jan says, I would have expected the butterfly to be open (ie: link up) as it would remain where it was when the engine was switched off. When the weather abates a bit (we're having a storm, winds up to 150kph) I'll have a look at that ... could it really be that simple???

In hope ...

Rod

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Mark Aldridge
Frequent User
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 57
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Monday, 19 December, 2011 - 05:24:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

We now have the car performing and running better than at any time in our brief ownership.
To achieve this we removed the weakener assembly completely ( this having been modified and messed about with by a previous cutodian or engineer!) and re piped the vacuum lines and float chamber vents accordingly.At this point the vacuum on the manifold takeoff returned to 15mmHg, but there was still a reluctance to pickup from idle.
A vacuum reading from the ditributor vac line showed 6-10mm Hg pulsing at tickover with a pulsing drop to zero on engine speed increase.We then disconected the distributor vac unit and connected the vac guage direct to the carb vac takeoffs. Vac was steady at tickover and the vac reading on the manifold was steady at 18mmHg.On acceleration the pickup was perfect! and throttle opening / vac guage responses were textbook.A test drive with the distributor vac unit blanked off and no weakener proved successful and after checking timing carburretor balance and Co settings a further 30 mile roadtest demonstrated much more lively performance and smoother running.Indeed the car ran so well that the ultimate test was to use it to go to a dinner dance last night ( I think Mrs A may have been a bit annoyed if it had "failed to proceed") It performed impeccably!!
I would not normally advocate this type of canniblised repair, but this Spirit was bought originally with a short MOT and a lot of corrosion for under 2500 and although it passed MOT with a little welding and we have repaired the front Wings, rear valence etc it will not justify huge investment in repairs although the previous ownner had spent over 8000 on brakes aircon exhausts etc in the last 8 years.The reasoning behind the purchase was my son wanted a car for his holiday as his Jag rebuild was not finished and if the car was a disaster it would be broken for spares for my other cars.However if we can keep it performing properly at reasonable cost then we will run it as a daily driver until the MOT man condemns it.
I am unsure as to the effect of the distributor vac unit, but only picked up the failure of the unit on both my Shadow and my Austin Healey Sprite as part of a routine vacuum test when servicing, their failure / replacement seemed to have no great effect on performance or economy.
Thanks to everyone for their input.
Mark
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Roderick Waite
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Posted From: 86.221.37.169
Posted on Tuesday, 20 December, 2011 - 00:08:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hello Mark, and congratulations! I have noted all you did, and will try it on Echo once I've replaced the coil - I have a small problem with that, but will post it as a new topic! Well done!

Rod

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Roderick Waite
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Posted From: 86.217.148.125
Posted on Tuesday, 03 January, 2012 - 20:21:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hello again Mark - replacing the coil took longer than expected, waiting for bits from England etc:, but am just waiting for the weather to improve to fit the new connectors ...

I propose to try your solution - when you say you removed the weakener altogether, did that include both the solenoid valves? I have already blanked off the vacuum connection to the anti-diesel one, but what did you do with the other? I plan to run the car minus the weakener system, although I will check the actual components for faults or damage, and replace them if there's no improvement without them.

Unhappily, the ignition system section (M3) is missing in my Manual (I'd like to get a copy, but the RREC UK refused to send me one as I hadn't bought the Manual from them!), so where is the distributor vac unit situated, please? Am I to understand that your distributor now has no vac connection at all?

Yours gratefully

Rod
'84 Spirit

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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1056
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 04 January, 2012 - 08:25:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Rod,

You can download this section of the manual from the Technical Library:

http://rrtechnical.info/sz/05_sz.htm

A direct link to the Manual Index is below:

http://rrtechnical.info/sz/sz80.htm

Section M3 is on the following link:

http://rrtechnical.info/sz/sz80/4400m/3.pdf

These will allow you to get on with the job...... The response you got is one of the reasons why the Technical Library exists for the benefit of all custodians as well as the cars themselves no matter where they are in the world.

Regards David
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Mark Aldridge
Frequent User
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 58
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Wednesday, 04 January, 2012 - 10:47:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Rod, I have literally removed the whole weakener assembly and connected the float chamber pipes to the overflow which goes under the car and blanked off all vac connections to the weakener. I also removed the vac hose from the distributor vac module(located on the side of the distributor) and blanked this off. Check that the distributor vac module will hold a vacuum by attaching a piece of hose to it and sucking a vacuum. The vac should not leak down(mine does!).
I used the Spirit for a 200 mile run at the weekend,with no distributor vacuum, and the only ill effect was a slight increase in fuel consumption when cruising. However the engine has "run on " once when switched off and I may have to refit the anti run on solenoid if this happens again.Also, I regapped the opus pickup clearance after finding the securing screws loose.Work pressures are limiting play time this month, but I will remove the distributor and replace the vacuum unit next month, unless anyone advises to the contrary.
Mark
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Bill Coburn
Moderator
Username: bill_coburn

Post Number: 1329
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 04 January, 2012 - 20:38:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Elaborating slightly on David's remarks, my concern is that if a car is not repaired because of a lack of information or instructions, there is a good chance it will be damaged beyond reasonable repair, efforts and/or cost, and the vehicle is lost forever. Those who profess to value the marque, one would think, would make sure that every assistance is given where possible. Mind you this situation largely pertained with pre-war cars which explains their small population and increased value of the survivors. Perhaps there is method in the madness??
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Roderick Waite
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 86.221.102.231
Posted on Thursday, 05 January, 2012 - 04:05:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Good afternoon to all, lovely bright, sunny day here in the north-west Charente of France - after 3 days of miserable drizzle!

David and Bill, indeed I was shocked to be refused assistance by the very Club I expected to offer every assistance - especially as I would have been paying for it! They did assist once before, at a cost of 25 for Section L, so I was doubly taken aback at the abrupt refusal (I had paid the bill, honest guv!). Anyway, praise be for people like you, to whom the preservation of the car is more important that the Bank balance ... and David, I will be downloading Section M3, thank you. Um, I'm quite willing to pay the cost - I have applied twice for membership, but received no response either time, so feel a bit embarrassed at using your brilliant service as a guest ...

Thank you for your clarification, Mark. I finally got the coil fitted today - the engine hasn't run in over 3 weeks - and she started after a bit of cranking. But I haven't solved the problem - she's OK with a few revs on, revs up fine etc:, but take my foot off and she stops. Won't idle - might give a kick or two, but that's it. Re-starts OK, but stops again with the foot off. Next stop - the weakening device! I'll block the vacuum to the distributor as well. I take it you've left the vacuum module open to atmosphere? Fingers crossed ...

Thanks and stay well

Rod
'84 Spirit

(Message approved by david_gore)
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1057
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 05 January, 2012 - 08:20:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Rod, I suspect your application has been delayed due to our summer holidays and our administrator having a well-earned break. "Everything comes to those who wait" so hopefully you will get an acknowledgement soon - as an aside, have you checked your email spam folder as the membership acceptance email may well be residing there?

In the traditional Aussie way [sadly diminishing as the culture of greed permeates our society from overseas], all the information in the Technical Library is provided to those who need it completely free of charge regardless of whether or not they belong to a Club, this or any other forum and/or wherever they live in the world.

All we expect is that you freely share your knowledge and experience with others in the future to keep interest in R-R/B alive and as many vehicles as possible on the road for our enjoyment and the appreciation of others.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1058
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 05 January, 2012 - 19:28:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Rod,

I contacted our administrator who advises your membership application was received, approved and a confirming email sent to you with the necessary link to activate your membership.

I suspect this response went into your email spam/junk mail folder and may have been automatically deleted as a consequence. If this is the case, please reapply and check your junk mail folder every day if the activation email does not appear in your inbox. When you receive the response, just follow the instructions to activate your membership.

Regards David
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Roderick Waite
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 86.207.226.51
Posted on Thursday, 05 January, 2012 - 19:53:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Good morning David (no doubt good evening there!), and thank you for checking. I received no email approving my application last summer (I was looking out especially, in hopes of getting one). Since then I have changed computers and email address (to the one I'm using for this) so no chance of ever finding it now! Neither have I received a response to the application I made 5 or 6 weeks ago via this computer and this email address. It is not in the Spam box either (which is now empty!).

I tried to register again a few minutes ago, but was advised you won't accept a 'free' email address (such as gmail), so I used my old address (that still works, I think) but was then told it was already registered to an account and I couldn't use it. So I'm stuck! I imagine it's still awaiting my activation, which I can't do as I don't have the required email! Is it possible to resend the email with the activation codes? I'll keep a doubly vigilant look-out for it, and hope the orange emails do indeed get diverted automatically to this one. Ain't Life complicated?

Thanks again, and stay well

Rod

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Mark Aldridge
Frequent User
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 59
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Thursday, 05 January, 2012 - 23:57:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Rod,yes I have left the vac module open to atmosphere. Does your cruise control work ? It may be worthwhile blanking the vac supply to this off also; and if the car runs ok then reconnect the connections one by one until you find the fault.Check also for leaks on the cold/hot air flap vac supply.
Unfortunately with our car,the weakener had been "knobbled", the distributor vac unit had failed, and the opus pickup in the distributor was loose. Which was the main culprit , i'm not sure.
Mark
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Roderick Waite
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 81.50.45.60
Posted on Friday, 06 January, 2012 - 05:54:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks Mark, I'll take your advice on blanking all the vacuum supplies off, then re-connect one by one until the faulty one reveals itself - if indeed a vacuum failure is at the root of it! Could be a split tube somewhere ... I don't have an 'Opus' system according to the engine number, but the later version. Under the rotor arm there is what appears to be a bronze coloured flat disc, about a quarter inch thick. Is that what you have?

David, it was Section M5 I wanted, which I have now downloaded (only 5 pages) but did you know that page M5-2 is missing? So only 4 pages!

I completed fitting the new coil yesterday. Echo had not been started for over 3 weeks, and was very reluctant to do so. Probably flooded from the various earlier attempts. Then she began to kick a bit, then hit and miss with prolonged cranking, then finally caught just before the battery gave up. She refused to idle at all, anything below about 1000rpm and she simply died (with the odd kick). She picked up OK, and I gave her 10 minutes until the temperature stabilised - but as soon as I let the revs drop below 1000rpm (estimated) she just died again. Re-started OK. So my problem has not been resolved, but at least I now know it's a fuel/air system fault.

So, next stop is the vacuum tubes ...

Rod
'84 Spirit

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Roderick Waite
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 86.217.147.206
Posted on Saturday, 14 January, 2012 - 06:21:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Just an update on the current situation. Apart from refusing to idle, Echo (my '84 Spirit) has become very reluctant to start, and when she does it's very rough running for maybe half a minute, when she'll suddenly rev up and run smoothly up and down the scale - but still stops below about 900rpm:. Having replaced all the ignition system to eliminate that as a suspect, it's looking more and more like a sticking piston in one of the SUs, as each feeds its own bank, so the rough running at start up could well be due to only one bank firing. I'm advised there is a 'tickler' that lifts the piston as a way of checking if it's sticky or not, but I can't find it and it's not even mentioned in the Manual. Can anyone describe where these little pins are to be found, please? I know they're underneath the carbs somewhere, but it's very hard to get your fingers in around there, so knowing where to look would help!

Stay well sll,

Rod

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Jan Forrest
Prolific User
Username: got_one

Post Number: 300
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Saturday, 14 January, 2012 - 21:41:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Unless the inlet manifolds have been altered from the original Shadow/T series then each carb should feed the 2 centre pots on its own side and the 2 end ones on the oposite bank. I'm assuming that this is to give you a V4 configuration if one carb should fail completely and thus retain primary engine balance. The piston lift pin should be under the carb on its right hand side. 'Pin' is definitely the correct word as when pushing against the pressure of the return spring they can dig into the flesh of your finger quite well.

IIRC there's a tutorial on stripping the carbs in the Shadow workshop manual which should be as applicable to your Spirit as it is to my Shadow 1. On the whole they are simple pieces of equipment and as long as you don't drop anything and maintain scrupulous cleanliness at all times it's an easy task to accomplish with no special tools required. For best results you should do each carb seperately so as to avoid the possibility of switching parts from one to the other. However I would first check out all the components in the induction system - air filter, air trunking and even all the vacuum take-offs - for integrity. In the past I've had similar running problems from having an old and partially blocked air filter and also from the air trumnking perishing and splitting. Both a too rich and too weak mixture could cause much the same kind of problems, but giving your old girl a bit of welly to overcome reluctance to proceed sounds like a weak mixture to me.
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Michael Hicks
New User
Username: bentleyman22

Post Number: 8
Registered: 12-2011
Posted on Saturday, 14 January, 2012 - 22:00:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

hi From The UK
I think the same a strip and clean
just see if when she is running spray a bit of brake cleaner or easy start around the engine just to see if you have any leaks keep away from air filter
if you have any leaks she will go mad as if you just given her steroids
I don't know the mileage (never believe what is on the clock) I would get a rebuild kit for them including the butterfly bearings and needles & jets and all so the Vacuum pipes if your keeping the car the will be of benefit as you will get a reliable and more fuel efficient car and all so get rid of your problem
Michael
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Mark Aldridge
Frequent User
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 61
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Sunday, 15 January, 2012 - 05:18:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Rod, I dont recall a lifter pin on Hif carbs? Checked mine by unscrewing the damper and lifting the piston with this as I removed it. The damper then falls back with a "click". I would have thought a sticking piston unlikely with swing needle HIF carbs, but cleaning the suction chamber and piston may be worthwhile anyway. Be aware each piston & chamber assembly are matched , dont interchange them.
Mark.
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Chris Browne
Frequent User
Username: chrisb

Post Number: 70
Registered: 2-2010
Posted on Sunday, 15 January, 2012 - 06:29:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Rod,

Mark is correct. There are no lifting pins on the HIF7 carburettors. A couple of things to watch if you are going to remove the suction chambers. When you come to refit them, make sure the large diameter spring is seated correctly top and bottom and also make sure that you lower the suction chamber in a straight line onto its seating. If you twist it to line up the screw holes, you can alter the tension in the coil spring which will, in itself , cause problems.
Kind regards,
Chris
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Roderick Waite
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 86.221.31.230
Posted on Sunday, 15 January, 2012 - 21:16:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hello again and thank you to Jan, Michael, Mark and Chris, well, a little more confusion, with two saying there are tickler pins (one opinion from another site), two saying there are not, and one abstention! Not to worry, I will take the concerted advice, and strip the carb tops for starters, taking careful note of what came from where. I'll do one at a time to avoid inadvertent mix-ups - I'm sure we all know how easily that can happen!

The firing order is 1 5 4 8 6 3 7 2 - which supports each carb feeding two cylinders on eack bank, rather than all four on one bank. Doesn't help me with the very rough misfiring and heavy vibration on start-up though. Still, one thing at a time. I'll be sending for gaskets and seals kits tomorrow.

Stay well

Rod
'84 Spirit

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Michael Hicks
New User
Username: bentleyman22

Post Number: 9
Registered: 12-2011
Posted on Monday, 16 January, 2012 - 08:10:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

take photos and mark the pot
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Jan Forrest
Grand Master
Username: got_one

Post Number: 301
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Monday, 16 January, 2012 - 21:05:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

It had been at the back of my mind for a while that the carbs didn't simply feed all the cylinders in one bank, but it was brought home to me a few months ago that missfires on cylinders 1 & 4 of 'B' bank were mirrored by weak firing on cylinders 2 & 3 of 'A' bank. Although I'd balanced the carbs by mirroring the adjustment of the main jets the 'B' bank carb was still running a little lean. Half a turn richer on that main jet cancelled this out and The Old Girl sailed through the annual emissions test.

However the firing sequence seems to be different on a Series 1 Shadow I don't know just how Roderick numbers the cylinders, but Rolls Royce numbers them by bank (A on the right and B on the left as viewed from the driver's seat). The sequence is:

A1 B1 A4 B4 B2 A3 B3 A2
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C Lungmuss
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 195.93.21.66
Posted on Tuesday, 17 January, 2012 - 06:10:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hello all on this thread,
This has been quite a long running subject so I thought I would pass on my experience, although mine was with an petrol injection car. My problem was with hot starting not bad running but the same principle may apply. I followed the advice and was guided to replacing the fuel accumulator, the result was still problems with hot starting. I then started to trawl the internet and I became aware of how many different cars used the Bosch fuel injection system.
Now somewhwere I read that incorrect pressure can cause a variety of problems and the suggestion was to check all hose clips and hoses. So with my ever ready screwdriver I started to check the numerous hose clips as this did not seem to be a costly operation. Not only were a number of them in need of tightening but one or two were in fact quite loose. I did check anything that was remotely to do with fuel delivery. I also found a couple of rubber hoses near to the rocker cover that were rock hard, no give in them to tighten. These were replaced using some odd bits in my box of rubber hoses 'not to be thrown away as they might be needed'. The result of this "costly" exercise is that the Bentley now starts when it is hot and runs quite smoothly. Therefore I have posted this as perhaps carb cars may respond to the same investigation when all else has failed.
I found this web site helpful in my quest to understand fuel injection systems: www.diagnostic-assistance.co.uk/mech_inj.htm

Good luck, Best Wishes for 2012
Clive Lungmuss

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Roderick Waite
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 86.221.93.71
Posted on Tuesday, 17 January, 2012 - 00:54:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Good idea Michael - out with the Kodak! I'll centre-pop each flange and body too. Your experience, Jan, confirms the carb feeds as being two pots on each bank - makes sense. The firing order is worked the old Army way - facing the radiator, left bank is 'A' and the right bank is 'B' - which conforms to Rolls specification - with #1 the foremost cylinder of A bank (then 2, 3, 4) and #5 the foremost cylinder on B bank (then 6, 7, 8) - so that 1 5 4 8 6 3 7 2 agrees precisely with the Rolls A1 B1 A4 B4 B2 A3 B3 A2.

Rod

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Roderick Waite
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 86.221.93.71
Posted on Tuesday, 17 January, 2012 - 05:40:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Ouch! I've just been quoted 204 + p&p for a service kit for the twin SUs on my '84 Spirit. I was expecting about 30! Silly boy ... ! I've noticed a few times you guys have come up with perfectly good alternatives at much lower prices, so wondered if you know of suitable service kits for HIF7 SUs in your repertoire? So far as I know the problem does not involve more than cleaning and perhaps some adjustments, so I was figuring on gaskets and seals only. Or am I kidding myself, and there's more to it than that?

Thanks all

Rod

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Michael Hicks
New User
Username: bentleyman22

Post Number: 10
Registered: 12-2011
Posted on Tuesday, 17 January, 2012 - 09:05:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Theirs a place i am thinking will Google and get back to you
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Chris Browne
Frequent User
Username: chrisb

Post Number: 71
Registered: 2-2010
Posted on Tuesday, 17 January, 2012 - 19:39:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hello Rod,
I have just rebuilt both SU HIF7 carbs on my 1979 Shadow 2 with original SU spares. I have changed needle valves, floats, jets, float chamber lids, spindle seals and all the gaskets for well under 100. The agents are Burlen Fuel Systems in the UK. If you Google them, you can order either by phone or by e.mail if you register with them. Incidentally, changing the float chamber lids might seem a bit OTT but I was advised that with age, the lids can warp and allow fuiel to seep from the large O ring so for an additional 8 each, I bought new lids to solve a potential problem before it occured. Let us know how you get on.
Kind regards,
Chris
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Roderick Waite
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 81.50.45.70
Posted on Tuesday, 17 January, 2012 - 20:27:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Chris, you are a Star! That's precisely what I was hoping for! I suspect that's what Michael is trying to remember too, so many thanks to you both. I have contacted Buren and await their advice.

Chris, you replaced far more than IntroCar offered, at less than half the cost! From the original source as well! I bet a lot of that goes on, but we just don't know - it proves the value of this site, that's for sure!

Many thanks, stay well

Rod

(Message approved by admin)
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Michael Hicks
Experienced User
Username: bentleyman22

Post Number: 11
Registered: 12-2011
Posted on Wednesday, 18 January, 2012 - 00:09:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I don't use them i use Brian at BCI he is good as they come and if he knows where to get it else where
he will tell you to go there
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Brian Vogel
Frequent User
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 57
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 18 January, 2012 - 03:38:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

If you're waiting for correspondence back from Burlen Fuel Systems, even though they are now the world's exclusive maker of genuine SU parts, you may wait a long time. My experience with them has been, shall we say, mixed.

If you've got a local guru that's your best bet. However, unless that SU guru is also a "Cars from Crewe" guru the RR/Bentley reassigned part numbers will mean nothing to them.
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Roderick Waite
Yet to post message
Username: rodwaite

Post Number: 1
Registered: 1-2012
Posted on Thursday, 19 January, 2012 - 00:07:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Good day! I can now speak as a Member of this Forum, my application having been approved! Your newest New Boy.

Wow, Michael, another string to my bow - I'll Google BCI soonest ... thank you.

I hit a good day at Burlen, Brian, had an answer straight back asking for the spec: tag number that's attached to each carb. Just sent it off, so will see what happens next.

In the meantime I've screwed the idle stop screw in level with the locknut. The car starts more easily, still mis-firing on start, but less so, with just a little throttle applied. Once warmed through, I can take my foot off the pedal and she runs for a minute or so, then coughs and dies - and runs on very lumpily after I switched off, ending in a horrible rattle. I re-connected the anti-run-on valve and tried again. Re-start fairly easily, ran smoothly, and stopped without running on when I switched off. At least it proves there's nothing wrong with the anti-run-on valve.

Harking back to a mail I'd not seen before, from Clive Lungmuss, indeed I do suspect a hose may be responsible, and I have checked those I can get at, but the one that defeats me is the distributor vacuum unit - I can't even see the connection, let alone check it - anyone got any tips?

So the quest continues ...

Stay well

Rod
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Michael Hicks
Experienced User
Username: bentleyman22

Post Number: 12
Registered: 12-2011
Posted on Thursday, 19 January, 2012 - 01:58:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

don't think he can use a webpage but his No is
01844237716 and he understands your tax.
when she is running spray easy start or brake cleaner and if you have a leak it will find it with a rev and a rattle
if she has to much fuel drop the air filter pipes of and have a look in the carburetor when she is running and have a look and see if she is taking more fuel
on the carburetor that has black plugs
I still think it is electrical
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Roderick Waite
New User
Username: rodwaite

Post Number: 2
Registered: 1-2012
Posted on Sunday, 22 January, 2012 - 05:35:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hello Michael, and thanks for the contact number for Brian - I imagine he's in the UK?

Been looking for 'Easy Start' which I remember from way back when, so far no joy, but I'd like to try it as it would confirm my most serious suspicions of an air leak - quite a small one, too. I'm waiting for the carb re-build kits to arrive from Burlen before starting on the carbs.

I've replaced everything ignition-wise, from the plugs to the coil and condenser, and checked the continuity of the ignition circuit, which is why the electrics have taken a back seat in my mind.

Stay well

Rod
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Michael Hicks
Experienced User
Username: bentleyman22

Post Number: 18
Registered: 12-2011
Posted on Sunday, 22 January, 2012 - 05:49:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

go and get some BRAKE cleaner it has eather in it so will do the same Job
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1060
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 22 January, 2012 - 09:21:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Rod,

"Easy start" type ether-based products are usually available in most specialist auto parts shops - just ask where the diesel engine starting fluid/aerosol cans are located. Otherwise they are available from 4WD/off-road outlets and also lawn mower service shops; just ask for diesel engine starting products and they will know exactly what you want.

Our version is in a bright yellow aerosol can branded "Start Ya Bastard" and is part of the Nulon product range. I keep a can in my diesel 4WD in case of battery drain/glow plug failure.
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Roderick Waite
New User
Username: rodwaite

Post Number: 3
Registered: 1-2012
Posted on Sunday, 29 January, 2012 - 06:04:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Gentlemen - Echo is fine! After 5 months of chasing down rainbows, I have struck the nail squarely on the head, thanks to information received from Phill in England.

Although I checked (and re-checked)the anti-run-on solenoid, I have never checked the one next to it, the weakener cut-off solenoid. I was told early on that it did not affect slow running, and so I have been ignoring it. Wrong! The Workshop Manual does not explain its operation very well, but I gather it certainly does affect slow running if faulty.

So today I disconnected the hose to the carburettor butterfly valves, and blanked it off. This also blanked off the vacuum hose to the distributor, that led off a 'Y' piece immediately after the solenoid.

The car didn't start easily, but more easily than before, and Wonder of Wonders, the engine didn't keep stalling. She idled - I returned the idle-stop screw to its original setting - she still idled. I tried the acid test of engaging the drive. She hesitated but then resumed idling - the car moved! She picked up a little hesitantly, but off we went around the village. She didn't stall once at the many sharp bends and 'Stop' junctions.

I'll try again tomorrow, but I have high hopes.

The replacement of the 'Tecalemit' solenoid has been quoted at around 245 - a bit steep for something that we paid around 5/- for in the 60s (I worked for Westinghouse). Does anyone know of a suitable alternative, please?

The engine also misfires occasionally when idling, and there's a 'popping' in the exhaust. Also a slight hesitation in picking up from idle when in drive mode. What is the most likely cause of that, and how is it best remedied?

With thanks to all who offered their expertise in my travails, which I hope are now ended!

Rod
'84 Spirit
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Mark Aldridge
Frequent User
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 62
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Tuesday, 31 January, 2012 - 08:44:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Rod,try reconnecting the vac supply to the distributor only. This may give a slight economy improvement and a slightly better pickup; assuming the vac unit on the distributor is ok.
Our Spirit is being used by my son daily and has covered 1000 miles since we disconnected the distributor vac unit and removed the weakener completely.There is a negligible decrease in MPG and the car performs well (even if the headlight overload cut out operates occasionally-- another job to do!)
I think the solenoid valve is also used on the fuel return on XJ6 and XJ12 Jags pre 1974.A Jag specialist eg SNG Barrat may be worth a try.
Mark
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Roderick Waite
New User
Username: rodwaite

Post Number: 4
Registered: 1-2012
Posted on Wednesday, 01 February, 2012 - 05:52:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks Mark, I'm thinking of doing without the cut-off solenoid altogether, but I would re-connect the vacuum to the distributor. I toyed with the idea of removing the entire weakener system, but my Spirit tends to 'diesel' a bit when switched off hot. The anti-diesel solenoid stops that.

I had that problem with the headlamp overload tripping, it turned out to be a faulty dipswitch.

Rod
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Mark Aldridge
Frequent User
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 69
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Tuesday, 13 March, 2012 - 10:24:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

We have just removed the distributor to attend to the vacuum unit and discovered that the recon opus unit fitted 3 years ago is suffering from leads almost broken through connecting the sensor to the baseplate.The circuit boards are covered in a silicon sealant. I removed this and have soldered new wires in. This potential problem was hard to see,but I wonder how common it is. Perhaps worth checking before spending 300 on a recon unit! Unit is now back in car and working fine.
Mark
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Roderick Waite
Experienced User
Username: rodwaite

Post Number: 26
Registered: 1-2012
Posted on Tuesday, 13 March, 2012 - 19:51:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hello Mark, I don't think I have an Opus unit - I'm told that my engine no: (09680) is well past the date the Opus was replaced by a more reliable unit.

I'm just waiting now for a quote to transport Echo to the French branch of Frank Dale - they're about 200km south of me, I've discovered, and have all the diagnostic and special gear to identify and correct her troubles. Fingers crossed!

Stay well

Rod
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Edward Mckinley
Experienced User
Username: ed_mckinley

Post Number: 45
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Thursday, 09 February, 2017 - 06:35:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Does anyone know of a replacement for the distributor vacuum advance mechanism on the 20,000 series cars? The crewe part number is CD6452 which I am told is no longer available
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Mike Yuke
Unregistered guest
Posted on Monday, 08 June, 2020 - 14:25:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Guys Im having a hot start issue with my 84 spirit, changed coil plugs, starts first time when cold, but once warmed up turns over but does not fire up, any ideas Mike

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 2320
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Monday, 08 June, 2020 - 23:18:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Ballast resister worth a check if fitted.
The early opus system did fit them.
Fit feed to the coil and see if the engine runs ok when hot.
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Paul Finnerty
Yet to post message
Username: paul

Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2021
Posted on Wednesday, 01 December, 2021 - 12:25:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I have a 1981 Silver Spirit which doesn't have a vacuum line to the distributor, can anyone tell me where it would come from, cheers, Paul.
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Larry Kavanagh
Frequent User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 805
Registered: 05-2016
Posted on Thursday, 02 December, 2021 - 03:03:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

On my 1979 Silver Shadow the vacuum hose to the distributor is attached to a y-shaped connection between the B-bank carb and the weakened solenoid.
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Paul Finnerty
New User
Username: paul

Post Number: 2
Registered: 11-2021
Posted on Thursday, 02 December, 2021 - 07:35:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thank you Larry
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Mark Aldridge
Frequent User
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 763
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Thursday, 02 December, 2021 - 20:37:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Paul,

http://rrtechnical.info/sz/sz80/k.pdf , at chapter K pages 23-25, may help.

I sold my Carb Spirit about 7 years ago having covered about 40k miles in 4 years with only minor problems.

Mark
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Paul Finnerty
New User
Username: paul

Post Number: 3
Registered: 11-2021
Posted on Saturday, 04 December, 2021 - 08:52:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi, Mark I hope that I have as much luck with my Spirit as you had. Having looked at the manual I see that my car is different,the vacuum line instead of running from the weakening device to distributor runs to a couple of diaphragms with pipes going to each carby, I think something to do with engine heat.

Added picture, I'm sure you will be able to enlighten me on what it is,

cheers, Paul

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Paul Finnerty
New User
Username: paul

Post Number: 4
Registered: 11-2021
Posted on Sunday, 05 December, 2021 - 08:03:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I'll answer my own question about those vacuum valves, I feel a dill for not getting it, they are exhaust gas reticulation valves (EGR) I have never seen any in that configuration or position before, it's all a learning curve with this car. It looks as though my car doesn't have vacuum advance on the distributor as all the lines are accounted for.
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Robert J. Sprauer
Frequent User
Username: wraithman

Post Number: 718
Registered: 11-2017
Posted on Sunday, 05 December, 2021 - 22:54:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Your car should have a vacuum port on the distributor. It is described/shown in TSD4400 Chapter K fig 13. in the workshop manual
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Larry Kavanagh
Frequent User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 806
Registered: 05-2016
Posted on Monday, 06 December, 2021 - 04:26:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I have a Silver Shadow 11 that does not have an EGR valve and the vacuum hose that goes to the distributor is in a similar location to your EGR vacuum hose except the Y-piece connection is located before the weakener device. On your engine the Y-piece connection is located after the weakener device and I'm not sure if that is correct but I could be wrong. Have you been playing around with the vacuum hoses and inadvertently replaced the Y-Piece on the wrong side of the weakener device? Maybe the set-up with EGR is different and my theory could be wrong but no doubt someone with a later model like yours can clarify the correct location for that Y-piece connection.
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Paul Finnerty
New User
Username: paul

Post Number: 5
Registered: 11-2021
Posted on Monday, 06 December, 2021 - 08:27:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi, I have only had this car a few months, the car came with a build and import history as well as full maintenance history till 2019, I'm an old Mercedes man and just understanding who this thing works, not looking forward to try & change spark plugs, LOL...Everything around the engine looks original the pipes running from the Y-piece are metal to the EGR so I doubt they could have been moved, I note in chapter K fuel systems it mentions somewhere remove distributor vacuum line if you have one, I assume that some cars don't LOL... meaning mine LOL... This is a journey. This car came with half a dozen trophies for winning concourse with the Victorian RR club years ago,it is in original condition.
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Larry Kavanagh
Frequent User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 807
Registered: 05-2016
Posted on Monday, 06 December, 2021 - 09:26:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

If your car was originally built for delivery to the Australian market the parts catalogue states that it should have a distributor vacuum unit - part no. CD 5963. Disregard what I wrote earlier about the location of the Y-piece on the vacuum hose near the weakener solenoid, looking at the manual it seems that your Y-piece is in the correct place. I reckon that if you have a vacuum advance unit on your distributor the vacuum should come from that Y-piece or from a T-piece somewhere along the same line. My model is older and doesn't have EGR but the advance unit on the distributor gets its vacuum from that hose.
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Mark Aldridge
Frequent User
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 764
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Monday, 06 December, 2021 - 09:58:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Paul, see Late Shadow destined for Aus.

http://rrtechnical.info/SY/TSD4200/tsd4200_u.pdf

May help, there does not appear to be a vac. connection to the distributor. Later in the chapter, the USA spec has one. The UK spec is totally different. This is however Shadow not Spirit although in the UK the late Shadow and early Spirit engines are similar.

Mark

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Paul Finnerty
New User
Username: paul

Post Number: 6
Registered: 11-2021
Posted on Monday, 06 December, 2021 - 13:33:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi, Mark, You guys are great, given me hours of studying, although I seem to be reading the same things over LOL... Unfortunately for me my car has the smog pump & EGR's, last time I had that was on a 1977 450SLC Mercedes, it was disconnected and I was grateful. When I read about ignition timing there was no mention of vacuum advance other than showing it on the diagram, I think you are right about the late shadow & early spirit engines being much the same, thanks for the effort, cheers, Paul.
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Paul Finnerty
New User
Username: paul

Post Number: 7
Registered: 11-2021
Posted on Monday, 06 December, 2021 - 15:22:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

HI, Larry, After reading mark's PDF I am of the opinion that my car is not using the vacuum advance, but it is interesting with the EGR's that some cars have catalytic converters while mine doesn't. I was reading about the engine over heating light coming on from sensors in the catalytic converters, I wonder where the sensor for over heat light is on our cars. Just curious.
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Larry Kavanagh
Frequent User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 808
Registered: 05-2016
Posted on Monday, 06 December, 2021 - 22:28:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Paul, On my Silver Shadow 11 the engine overheat sensor is on the outside of engine A-Bank roughly between the aftermost and second aftermost spark plugs. I've heard that by the time these sensors activate the warning buzzer it's already too late. The sensor for the temperature gauge is on the thermostat housing where a number of other coolant temperature sensors are located e.g., electric radiator fan activating switch and a switch to delay the heater valve opening until coolant temp reaches approx. 45c.
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Robert J. Sprauer
Frequent User
Username: wraithman

Post Number: 719
Registered: 11-2017
Posted on Monday, 06 December, 2021 - 22:35:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The catalytic converters due not contain any sensors.
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Paul Finnerty
New User
Username: paul

Post Number: 8
Registered: 11-2021
Posted on Tuesday, 07 December, 2021 - 12:17:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks Larry, I saw that sensor yesterday when I was studying the air pipes into the manifold, now I know what it does, I've also read that it's too late when the light comes on. I recently changed the sensor for the temperature gauge, quite tight, it was showing the engine being too cold.I have written out the tests to perform for EGR vale,anti run on, cut off solenoid,weakening valve, air injection system,and will also check the timing. I don't trust mechanics, even if it has been serviced by so called professionals, my experience from our Mercedes have taught me that.
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Paul Finnerty
New User
Username: paul

Post Number: 9
Registered: 11-2021
Posted on Tuesday, 07 December, 2021 - 12:26:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi, Robert, I didn't know I was looking at the Japanese version, everything the same as my car except for the catalytic converters which do have sensors.
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Robert J. Sprauer
Frequent User
Username: wraithman

Post Number: 720
Registered: 11-2017
Posted on Tuesday, 07 December, 2021 - 22:10:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The sensors shown are on the pan and alert when there is excessive heat. The heat is known to destroy underlayment and eventually carpet to say the least. The Japanese production had them as you addressed.

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