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Stefan Morley
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Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 281
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Friday, 29 July, 2011 - 23:15:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi,

Finally got around to installing a bosch wide-band O2 sensor, coupled with logging of RPM and Manifold pressure.

Does tell a story. The CO looks good at idle, the O2 sensor concurred telling me I was at 14.1 AFR. Rev the engine and a totally different story. Slow response of CO meter doesn't paint a real picture. Before I adjusted anything, 18.7 peaks but typically around 15>>16.8. Mmmmm. Very good reason I abstained from driving.

Adjusted the EHA 1/3 of a turn CW and now average of about 14.9 up to 2500 rpm and idle 14.1. At this stage this is only up to 2500 rpm with no load. IE manifold depression doesn't remain long. Least I'm heading in the right direction.

My plan is to have idle at approx 14.1 ish, and adjust the EHA so that I am towards 13.7 ish with moderate manifold depression say about 5>>10 inches HG up to 2500rpm. Once I get to that point plan on taking the car out and logging data under load to get an idea of the full operational AFR map. I've setup Supra's towards 11.2 ish, but that is with 27 PSI boost. Just not sure quite where to head with the Bentley.

Question. What is the ideal AFR max boost?? Or even atmosphere would be telling of where the curve would fit in. Really the current curve for the EHA would relate to the intended AFR map. Just what that might be????

Any Clues
Cheers
Stefan
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Stefan Morley
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Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 283
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Saturday, 30 July, 2011 - 10:36:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi,

Something like this would paint a picture. Not sure if this is an EFI but irrespective would not be forced induction. See bottom AFR chart.

http://classicperformance.com.au/dynoRollsRoyce.html

Anyone seen something like this for a Turbo R. Even a post 89 with Motronic would be roughly in the ballpark.

Stefan
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Stefan Morley
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Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 284
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Saturday, 30 July, 2011 - 12:16:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi,

Peoples might like to see what I'm on about. Won't bother with the initial test other than to say it was BAD and glad I didn't drive the car.

RPM X axis, Manifold depression Y Axis and AFR is the data. Colours indicate average AFR unless there is a peak greater or less that a defined value. This first one was after I adjusted the EHA 1/3 turn CW. IE richer. This is going to be my initial baseline.

First Pass

This is the second pass after I adjusted the EHA a further 1/3 turn CW. Note had to readjust the mixture screw and idle to get back to 14.1 at idle at 580rpm.

Second Pass

Again further improvement. Was trying to get readings with manifold pressure closer to atmosphere, doesn't really work with no load as it is only an instantaneous reading and there will always be some mechanical lag in the system. That is what the 15 AFR's @ 1500rpm are about. The real picture will be under load for a given depression.

Least this shows where I'm trying to get to.

Cheers
Stefan
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Stefan Morley
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Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 285
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Saturday, 30 July, 2011 - 12:26:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi,

BTW the -19.0 depression is about throttle backing off hence greater depression. My car typically is about -18.5 ish at idle so this is the best row to start considering numbers.

Based on the changes in the charts I should be pretty much be able to get to whatever AFR I pick. Exactly where that should lie is the remaining question.

Stefan
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Stefan Morley
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Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 286
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Saturday, 30 July, 2011 - 13:44:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi,

Played with the numbers a bit in Excel. Averaged both runs out and plotted a trend line. Can clearly see the EHA adjustment is controlling the AFR over RPM. My assumption is the trend needs to be heading into negative territory, effectively making the mixture richer for increased RPM.

Trend Line Both passes

What is also obvious is the increase in current in the EHA richening the mixture and that point has been moved by adjusting the EHA. The more data I gather the more accurate will be the full picture.

Based on the numbers I might adjust the EHA another 1/4 turn measure and decide if a road trial is useful.

Stefan
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2364
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 30 July, 2011 - 17:28:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Stefan, your AFR numbers seem high to me (i.e. lean). Most naturally-aspirated cars run 12-13.1 on high load, somewhat richer than the -stoichiometric theoretical value of 14.7. With high compression and moderate boost, like on the Bentley, you would expect about 11 – 11.2 to work well. Low-compression jobs like a Subaru would run 11.5 – 12.5. On full acceleration, the figures should probably drop a further 1 – 1.5 . I would expect higher figures to improve economy but stress the valves, whilst lower figures reduce detonation. Indeed, some lean-burn economy motors run as high as 16.5, so almost really anything goes it seems. However, those motors often rely on large twin cats to nock out the NOx-s so generated.

I’m observing with interest !

Are you using an NGK wideband tester ? I only have a crappy Gunson Gastester digital CO meter for idle CO adjustment. I am considering buying the NGK as they cost about $300, but you do need to fit a Lambda probe for tuning older cars.

RT.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2366
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 30 July, 2011 - 17:53:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Perhaps I should clarify my comments. On no load, your figure of 14.1, or even higher, sounds pretty good, but you will have a job to determine the optimum loaded AFR settings, yet those are the important ones ! I would aim for a constant AFR regardless of RPM. On overrun the AFR doesn’t really matter so long as the beast doesn’t backfire and carry on… My figures above are fairly rough but may be useful as a guide once you have gleaned expert opinion !!


Then there is ambient temperature to consider, as a hotter ambient requires a leaner mixture (higher air-fuel ratio). That is not to be confused with choking or enrichening a cold motor temporarily.

RT.
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Stefan Morley
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Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 287
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Saturday, 30 July, 2011 - 18:20:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks Richard,

Been a while. Would I be right in saying the numbers your talking will probably make sense once I take it on the road, ie under proper load. The numbers I've logged so far are only sitting in the garage. So really no load on the engine.

Want to be reasonably confident I'm in the right direction before loading things up.

Do you think the numbers I have are roughly right for no load??? Under load I imagine they will go in the direction your talking. Easy enough to stop the run if numbers look like they are getting out of hand.

The CO analyzer has GASTESTER on the front, not really clear who made it. Looks a few years old but seems to work. Pretty slow update rate though. The O2 Logger is an LM2 from innovate motor sports. Don't think much of the OBD interface, doesn't work with Toyota's, just about the most prolific car manufacturer on the planet!!!! But for simple logging of data works like a treat and the O2 update rate is quick enough to see individual cylinder issues at idle. The RPM is a bit hit and miss, might have to put and RC on the input. Otherwise works okay.

Stefan
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Stefan Morley
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Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 288
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Saturday, 30 July, 2011 - 18:25:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard,

You pre-empted my question, just saw the follow up. Happy with that, my numbers are roughly right for no load. Tomorrow will take it for a road spin. Easy enough to back off if things are in the wrong direction.

Thanks for the input.

Cheers
Stefan
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Stefan Morley
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Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 289
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Saturday, 30 July, 2011 - 18:40:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard,

While I might be able to control the slope to a degree adjusting the EHA the specific mapping one might be able to achieve with a "modern" engine management system will not be achievable. Doubt flat AFR would be possible, well at least no more than the relatively simple fuel analogue electronics allows in the KE2 88 model. 89 Motronic might be a different story

Hey there is a product.... Pre 89 cars with mapped engine management system with O2 feedback :-)

Cheers
Stefan
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2367
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 30 July, 2011 - 18:48:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Mine is a Gunson brand CO tester, the model is named Gastester. Remarkably it is the same model name as yours but surely something completely different (part of a Gastester range of products ?). Anyhow, here is a drawing of it from the manual. Yo poke the probe down the exhaust - before any cat and with the Lambda probe disconnected - and read off the CO figure. Sounds good, but the readings drift so I don't really trust them. I'll go for a proper wideband AFR tester soon I think.

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Stefan Morley
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Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 290
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Saturday, 30 July, 2011 - 19:18:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard,

Looks like the same thing. Mine looks like it had a hard life but seems to work. Bought it from the States a few years back on ebay, minus manual.

The wide band O2 is a lot better. http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lm2.php Although the marketing spin does overstate the product it does work okay.

Stefan
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2368
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 31 July, 2011 - 00:21:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Stefan, lost the manual eh ?

You will find the manual for the Gunson Gastester on:

http://rrtechnical.info/miscellaneous/GunsonDigital.pdf
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Stefan Morley
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Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 291
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Sunday, 31 July, 2011 - 10:23:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard,

Thanks for that. Good read. Don't feel so bad about my readings drifting, assumed my meter was on it's last legs. The wide-band has none of those little idiosyncrasies. Got a very intuitive calibration routine, done in free air it should come up at 20.9. Oxygen in the atmosphere!!

Off for a drive today :-)

Cheers
Stefan
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Stefan Morley
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Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 292
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Sunday, 31 July, 2011 - 10:50:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard,

BTW the LM2, needs a bung welded on to the exhaust to take the wide-band sensor just before the catalytic converter. Have an after market Cat installed. Innovate also sell a mount to stick up the exhaust pipe on cars without a Cat. Wide-band sensors don't take kindly to moisture or petrol on them and having the sensor that far back in the system allows way too much opportunity for condensation stuffing the sensor.

Basically what I've done is hook into one of the ignition coils for RPM. Tapped off the Turbo manifold pressure sensor for pressure and the O2 sensor itself.

There is a rubber bung in the passenger side foot-well that can be removed for the wires. Wish I had found that when I installed the boost gauge!!!!

Stefan
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Stefan Morley
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Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 293
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Sunday, 31 July, 2011 - 16:51:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard,

Did the road run. Couple of interesting findings. Not totally obvious on this chart. What this chart does tell me is "most" things are heading in the direction I need, could be a little richer. I haven't headed into positive manifold pressure territory, because I can't.

First Road Log

Some of the Red boxes 1500>>1800 @ -18.0 are about throttle backing off, not really an issue. What is an issue is the red boxes close to atmosphere at 1900 ish. This is where the lack of power occurs that has plagued the car.

Looking at the logs what is happening is you hit the throttle, manifold depression goes to atmosphere, shortly afterwards AFR goes up about 0.5>>0.75 AFR point, then drops at a slightly slower rate to about -1 AFR point as the RPM increases. Ie making the mix richer. Then at some point in the acceleration curve, RPM stops climbing and drops back 100>>200 rpm. At the same time the AFR goes up 1.5>>3 points.

The blue boxes at 2200>2300 close to atmosphere are what happens just before that loss of power (the drop of 100>>200 rpm). Thats why the AFR at slightly higher RPMs are roughly right and the ones just below aren't.

I broke the logging up into two sections. First was warm up period and second was normal running. Didn't bother put that on the forum as it was mixed up a bit with post warm up condition. From cold the AFR is 11.1 and steadily over 5 mins climbs to 13.9. When driving in the warm up period there are a lot more red boxes at lower RPMs.

All this suggests to me fuel starvation. Warm up period the EHA has higher current, richer mix. If there is a fuel delivery issue then then the AFR will go up a lot earlier in the map, which it does. Same goes for under full throttle post warm up, place too much demand on the fuel supply and at some point the need exceeds the delivery.

I've replaced the fuel pump and filter. Tested the pressure in upper and lower chamber and they are within spec. Ideally need to monitor fuel flow, the fuel pressure change probably be too small to effectively monitor.

Guess the only other thing is the in tank pump. Maybe I should do a bucket test on fuel delivery.....

Does this thinking make sense to yourself?

Stefan
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Stefan Morley
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Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 294
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Sunday, 31 July, 2011 - 17:18:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard,

Here is a chart of one such sequence.

Sequence

Pink AFR
Red Manifold Pressure
Black RPM

Sequence, Open throttle, AFR Climbs slightly, then starts going negative. All good to this point.

RPM's start going up, then the AFR briefly goes to almost 17. At the same time the RPM's drops slightly. This particular one is a very good example in that you can see the oscillations of the AFR with corresponding result of the RPM's. Finally hit an RPM plateau if you give more throttle.

If you feather the throttle you can keep the oscillations going, but feels very wrong.....

Stefan
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 762
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, 31 July, 2011 - 20:16:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

"Guess the only other thing is the in tank pump. Maybe I should do a bucket test on fuel delivery..... "

Stefan, do you still have one? These were deleted and just a pre-filter fitted ages ago.

Also is your accumulator working / new?

Regards, Paul.
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Stefan Morley
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Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 295
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Sunday, 31 July, 2011 - 20:51:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Paul,

Yeah I know. Never got around to ordering the kit. Asked the question at the time after finding out FS only supplies the filter kit. One wonders if a filter kit works why Bentley ever bothered with the pre-pump. I've still got a wire going to it so assume the pump is still in the tank.

The high pressure pump was renewed but not the accumulator mounted next to it. Maybe I'll figure out how to test it. Seem to remember something in the manual!!!!

Any idea where to source the accumulator?

Stefan
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Stefan Morley
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Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 296
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Sunday, 31 July, 2011 - 21:11:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Paul,

Just looking at the manual. No tests, just how to remove and install.

Am I right in assuming what they refer to as the "accumulator" is the long metal unit next to the fuel pump and the "damper" is the domed unit with the Banjo connection on the end of the accumulator?

Stefan
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Paul Yorke
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Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 763
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, 31 July, 2011 - 21:13:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I think it was one of those things that sounded like a good idea at the time. Especially for cars that have a low lying fuel tank or one that is fairly remote from the pump.

Somebody must have spotted that the tank is higher than the pump and just inches away.

I think the accumulator is fairly standard. If fuel comes through the bleed off pipe in the back it's definitely knackered. Not sure how you would check spring pressure though.

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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 764
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, 31 July, 2011 - 21:23:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Stefan, yes and yes.

Just a used fuel tank outlet will do. It should come with the filter etc.

I'll probably have one here if you need one.
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Stefan Morley
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Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 297
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Sunday, 31 July, 2011 - 21:30:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks guys.

Did the leak down check a long time ago, but didn't focus on timing much, other than seemed to hold pressure for a while. Maybe time to have better look. Easy enough to do.

Found the accumulator test in the manual, in the injection section not the fuel system. Logical I guess.

Cheers
Stefan
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2370
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 31 July, 2011 - 21:33:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Pretty sure it's a Bosch accu, part 0.438.170.017 as used on Volvo, Saab, BMW etc. A tuneup shop should stock them. I think that I bought my last one at Repco.

RT.
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Stefan Morley
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Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 298
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Sunday, 31 July, 2011 - 21:42:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Paul and Richard,

Should get the tests and decide what to do by the end of the week. Probably should replace that tank pump with the kit, as a matter of course. After the tests, least ways so I know what stuffed up the works.

Actually noticed I did get into positive pressure to about 1.5PSI a couple of times. Nice to know there was no stupid responses from the turbo/dump valve/wastegate. Simply responded to lack of RPM's. Something positive.

Good to know they can be got from Repco.

Ha, just figured out how to edit posts :-|

Thanks
Stefan

(Message edited by myupctoys on 31 July 2011)

(Message edited by myupctoys on 31 July 2011)
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Stefan Morley
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Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 299
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Monday, 01 August, 2011 - 14:17:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi,

Done a few tests. The accumulator let out a few drops then stopped, at least that isn't leaking. Tried is a couple of time but seems fine.

Have a problem. Couldn't find my fuel pressure gauge so in the meantime thought I'd check the delivery. Last time I measured the pressure it seemed to hold for well over 15 mins but never properly timed it. Might get back to that. Delivery, 30 Seconds 350>>400ml; long way shy of the 1L and I assume thats a conservative minimum. Thats certainly an issue. Led me to measuring the voltage on the fuel pump. 6.7V, that even more telling. Battery is 12.5V

Looks like I need to find some missing electrons. Tested that well over two years ago and it was about 10.3V, so something has deteriorated. Just for laughs disconnected the pre-pump and made no difference.

Assume it'll either be a relay in the form of the starter inhibit or engine running sensor, or a fuse holder or a splice. That'll keep me entertained for a bit.

Stefan
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Stefan Morley
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Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 300
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Monday, 01 August, 2011 - 15:02:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Edit that.

The test in the manual didn't work right. Hooking the washer bottle wire to the starter inhibit meant the pump saw 6.7V. With the Car running and pumps powered by normal means, has 12.6V and with Car alternator putting out 13.9V. on them. 1.3V drop isn't so bad.

Might hook the pumps directly to the battery to test fuel flow. Doesn't seem to work particularly well the other way.

Stefan
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Stefan Morley
Grand Master
Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 301
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Monday, 01 August, 2011 - 15:57:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Revised test.

Now running the pump motor directly from the battery given the voltage is a bit more representative of normal running conditions.

Re checked the accumulator. Same result, looks like it at least doesn't leak.

Redid the flow test, again directly hooked to the battery. Approx 500>600ml, better but still a long way short of 1L. Given the pump and filter has barely done 1000kms can only assume the in tank pump is a problem.

Paul, you mentioned you might have one of those kits floating around. Can you let me know what you want for it?

Cheers
Stefan
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Stefan Morley
Grand Master
Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 302
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Thursday, 04 August, 2011 - 13:38:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Guys,

Couple of interesting observations. Figured out why the fault with my car is intermittent, although getting progressively worse. The in tank pump sporadically works but never for more than a couple of seconds.

Another test that was interesting, I have a crude fuel flow tester, not much more than a plastic ball captured in a clear tube. Hooked it up to the accumulator return pipe, one that goes back to the tank.

Even at idle the ball indicates fuel flowing periodically both ways. The greatest movement occurs when the high pressure pump makes slightly more noise than normal. Assume whatever is happening the the fuel tank pump periodically starves the high pressure pump and the reserve fuel in the accumulator being depleted draws more or less fuel to the other side of the accumulator diaphragm. Almost to the point sometimes it sounds like it's cycling.

Anyway ordered the pre-pump elimination kit from flying spares. Couple of weeks should have a better story to tell.

Will never fault find a CIS without an O2 meter again. Worth its weight in gold.

Cheers
Stefan
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1015
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 04 August, 2011 - 16:55:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Stefan,

It is possible the high-pressure pump is cavitating when it sounds noisier than usual. Cavitation usually occurs when there is insufficient back presure on the discharge side of the pump and/or excessive flow rates which cause vapour bubbles to form in the fluid being pumped. If the flow rate decreases or stops while the pump continues to operate, the churning of the fluid in the pump creates heat and eventual boiling of the fluid if the flow is stopped for sufficient time. The subsequent collapse of these bubbles creates noise which is often described as being similar to a can of marbles being shaken. Cavitation degrades the performance of a pump, resulting in a fluctuating flow rate and discharge pressure. Cavitation can also be destructive to pump internal components. A good test for cavitation is to measure the current going to the motor; if this fluctuates when the pump is noisy, this is an indication that the pump is cavitating.

All of this suggests the most likely cause is an intermittent leak on the high-pressure side of the pump or an intermittent blockage on the inlet side of the pump. The best indication of what is the likely cause is to check the temperature of the pump casing and/or the fluid temperature when it is loudest: if the temperature does not increase, the problem is on the discharge side; if the temperature increases, the problem is on the suction side or a blockage on the discharge side of the pump.

As an aside and not knowing the wiring of the pumps, is it possible one of the pumps has been connected with reverse polarity? This could result in a situation where one pump is working against the other thus reducing the flow rate.




(Message edited by david_gore on 04 August 2011)
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Stefan Morley
Grand Master
Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 303
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Thursday, 04 August, 2011 - 17:15:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi David,

No visible leaks on the outlet side and the pressure test doesn't suggest an injector/cold start leak. The accumulator has been tested and that doesn't leak either.

Not possible to connect the main pressure pump the wrong way. Guess it might be possible to connect the pre pump wrong as that has two wires going to it. Not sure if the spade pins are different sizes, only ever taken one off. Guess its possible.

The noise happens maybe for a second every couple of minutes at idle. Not loud just noticeable change, certainly not enough to feel a temperature change. But makes sense what your talking about if it was a more prolonged event. Didn't measure it when the noise occurs but typically it was consuming 8>>9 amps. Maybe try and measure it when it happens.

Will have a look at the in tank pump wiring and maybe see if the pump is able to push fuel above the level of the tank. If the wiring is wrong it will have been like that before I bought it.

Cheers, Thanks for the input
Stefan

Edit that, it would be possible to wire the main pump the wrong way, if it was replaced with the +ve connection facing towards the chassis. But think that would become very obvious :-)

(Message edited by myupctoys on 04 August 2011)

(Message edited by myupctoys on 04 August 2011)
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Stefan Morley
Grand Master
Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 304
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Friday, 05 August, 2011 - 15:22:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

David,

Had a look. Not possible to get the pre-pump hooked up the wrong way. The two connectors have different plastic holders making it impossible. Good thought though.

The Pre-Pump draws about 1.6A. The main pump draws about 7 amps. Just to see what you meant by the noise I used a hose clamp on the inlet partially blocking it. Starts to make a right clatter and the current consumption goes up. I've never had that noise. The noise I get is high pitched, not loud though, certainly not in comparison to that clatter. Might be the startings of cavitation but enough flow that it never gets to the extent of a blockage.

Powered the pre-pump with the engine off. Certainly sound like its spinning. Just in the off chance something was blocking it I reversed the polarity. Motor spins both ways. Then tried it with the engine running. The pre-pump is certainly helping the main pump based on the main pump noise, disconnect the pre-pump and the main pump makes a bit more noise. Still nowhere near o the point of the clatter. How well its doing it????

Can't find any specs on what the pre-pump should deliver. Rather not replace it with the elimination kit if it works. Still remains, something is stuffing up the flow. Maybe the filter in the tank.

Stefan
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Stefan Morley
Grand Master
Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 305
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Friday, 05 August, 2011 - 16:06:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi,

Last test I did I measured fuel flow from the fuel pump itself before going into the distributor and that was 500>>600ml. After reading the manual again they actually say the return line back to the fuel pump on the distributor. Makes sense I guess in that this would test the fuel flow after pressuring the system.

Do they actually mean the return line at the bottom of the pressure regulator which is next to the distributor?

Measured this and I get more like 300 ml. Main pressure is fine at 84 PSI but that flow is ordinary. No wonder the cars not working.

Think I've got to start considering something actually blocking the pipes themselves.

Stefan
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Stefan Morley
Grand Master
Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 306
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Friday, 05 August, 2011 - 17:40:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi,

Checked flow at the pump and thats still about 600ml directly into a bucket. Either the pre-pump is blocked or my main pump is stuffed. That was the first thing I went and bought..... Thought I'd better put my questions in a nutshell.

Is there any spec on what the pre-pump should deliver?

For flow checks, does the manual really mean the return line at the bottom of the pressure regulator?

Many thanks
Stefan
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2372
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, 05 August, 2011 - 18:12:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Stefan,

The pre-pump only primes the main pump and has no useful purpose in reality. Hence its deletion.

Note that the conversion kit listed below for the job is just a bunch of clips and useless other stuff. The main pump does not change. The pre-pump is a hangover from the early days of diesels and fuel injection when, if you ran out of fuel, it was a disaster: the system needed to be pressure primed to bleed the air and it often was not a roadside job. The pre-pump was invented to primr the system, but later fuel pumps could draw enough by themselves to self-prime.

In practice you can simply gut the pre-pump. The deletion kit was mainly to reduce noise, and they took the opportunity to delete the useless pre-pump at the same time. I’ll almost bet that many cars are running around perfectly with a dud pre-pump. The main pump has plenty of oomph. It sure sounds that you have a blockage, maybe in the in-tank filter sock.

RT.
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Stefan Morley
Grand Master
Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 307
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Friday, 05 August, 2011 - 18:27:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks Richard,

Assume the pre-pumps must be a simple impeller style of thing if fuel can be sucked past them without them working.

I've ordered the cheaper kit, the one that only eliminates the pre-pump itself. That list looks like the noise reduction kit as well. I know there isn't much in it but least ways I'll have a new sock and washer when I take the thing out.

It'll get there.
Stefan
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1016
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 06 August, 2011 - 09:11:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Stefan,

Great detective work on your part - I am reasonably confident about a blockage between the tank and the main pump being responsible for your problems. The main pump is working with "throttled suction" and the low vapour pressure of petrol means cavitation can be induced with relatively minor reductions in fluid flow.

Cavitation is a phenomenon that occurs when the pressure of a liquid is reduced below its vapour pressure and brought back up above the vapour pressure again. Bubbles of vapour form in the liquid and then collapse upon arriving at the higher pressure region. The collapse occurs at sonic speed ejecting minute jets of extremely high velocity liquid. This results in noise and also erosion of the pump components leading to wear, loss of efficiency and eventual failure.

It is possible the main pump may have been damaged from cavitation and, if possible, should be dismantled and inspected. If this is not possible, I would seriously consider replacing this pump as a preventative maintenance measure.

Onward ever onwards however I think you are very close to the final solution.

(Message edited by david_gore on 06 August 2011)
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Stefan Morley
Grand Master
Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 308
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Saturday, 06 August, 2011 - 10:49:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

David,

Pretty much the same thing that erodes propellers on boats. Pretty destructive force.

I'll look at the pre-pump when I get the kit then consider the main pump again. The pump is a sealed unit so no chance of rebuilding. Be a bit peeved if the new one had followed the same path as the old.

Couple of weeks.

Cheers
Stefan
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Stefan Morley
Grand Master
Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 309
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 16 August, 2011 - 17:21:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Guys,

Got the pre-pump elimination kit. The old filter is certainly blocked, little wonder, seems way too fine a gauge. The new one seems a lot more logical.

Here is the new and the old.

Filters

Fuel delivery has only improved to about 500ml and the main pump is making more noise at idle. Think I'll have to revisit Davids suggestion and look at the pump.

Surprised the main pump has died with barely 1000ks under its belt. Wonder if it was right from word go!! Least I know flow to the pump is good now. Took 2 hrs to empty 30L with the old filter. 15mins with the new. Only reason I know, wasn't happy with the way I initially laid the hose.

Need to ask the question again. In the manual they talk about fuel flow at the distributor being min 1L. Do they really mean the fuel return line back to the tank on the pressure regulator?
IE flow after the fuel system is pressurized or simple flow from the pump itself.

Thanks
Stefan
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 767
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, 16 August, 2011 - 19:12:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Perhaps the reduced flow to the pump has damaged the new pump, they certainly hate running out of fuel and Spirit based cars should never be run under a 1/4 of a tank.

I think Cavitation was one reasons for deleting the pre pump.
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Stefan Morley
Grand Master
Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 310
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 16 August, 2011 - 20:45:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Think your right Paul. Guess it'll be a new pump. Didn't expect that. Looked on the Bosch site on details on assorted pumps, spec is based on reaching a certain pressure and flow at 60% of nominal voltage. Long way shy of that.

Edit my previous question. Realized my pdf manual is missing parts of the section on the KE2 so was basing it on the KE. Found the right section on the RROC site :-) Specs are the same just connections different. Flow is with the system under pressure and is measured from the return at the bottom of the regulator for KE2. Looks like I was doing the right thing.

Looking at the pre-pump can understand why you wouldn't want to run less than 1/4 tank. Didn't realize there was close to 1 inch between the bottom of the tank and the bottom of the pump inlet. Mmmmmm, was only prepared for a bit of residual, not the close to 5 liters when i undid the pre-pump.

Cheers
Stefan
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2376
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 16 August, 2011 - 20:56:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Apart from the pump damage suggested, my tank makes a racket as soon as the low fuel lamp comes on around ¼ tank. I assume that I need to reposition the return feed some day. Also, when on full acceleration (Autobahn from rest to the horizon) it sometimes starved of fuel and coughed a bit before I reached 240 when the tank was lowish as the fuel surged away from the tank pickup. The accumulator has its limits when pumped with air. No such luck in Oz where we are limited to snail's paces.

RT.
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Stefan Morley
Grand Master
Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 311
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 17 August, 2011 - 00:56:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Richard,

Wish the noise from the pump was more conclusive. It's slightly worse now and more consistent but I would hardly call it bad nor annoying. Not compared with partially blocking the feed pipe from the tank. How longs a piece of string....

Guess what is conclusive is half the rated flow. Really making me wonder if the replacement I got was the right one. Flying Spares tend to be pretty good though.

I'll be happy when I can hit a hill and not worry about overtaking. :-( 240k's maybe one day, before I'm too decrepit to keep it together.

Cheers
Stefan
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Stefan Morley
Grand Master
Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 312
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 17 August, 2011 - 12:57:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi,

Puzzling over main pump, asked Bosch for the original specs. Specs are 0580 254 938 fitted to the KE2-Jetronic are 5Bar (aka 72.5PSI) @ 168L hr and the 0580 254 918 fitted to the Motronic (late 89 up) are 4Bar (aka 58.0PSI) @ 170L hr.

Based on the 1L/30secs in the manual means flow should be between 120>>168L hr at pressure or 1L>>1.4L over 30 secs. Bosch details specs are based on 60% of operating voltage. Assume it won't be directly linear up to 100% but least it paints a picture.

I'm a bit put off buying something based on a UE71606 part number when I can get something that is clearly specified for pressure and flow. Don't know what Bosch number is stamped on the existing pump but after having spent ~$300 already.....

Question has anyone had good/bad experience with Sytec/Waldo (same people) brand pumps?

Stefan
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2379
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 17 August, 2011 - 14:04:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Stefan, I fitted a Walbro unit to a friend's Porsche a few years back. Set it and forget it. There is nothing to say about it other than it is now forgotten. Strangely, I found at the time that it cross-references to the Bosch 69429 which also suits all Bosch fuel injected SZs. At the time, I recall that FSE (Sytec) were a little cheaper, and didn’t realise that they are the same. I bought the pump in the UK for about 60 quid as it was half the price of those on offer locally in Europe. That’s less than 100 bucks nowadays. In any case, the fuel pump should not be critical. After all, we are not using the things anywhere near their limits and pressure is controlled by the regulator.

RT.
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Stefan Morley
Grand Master
Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 313
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 17 August, 2011 - 14:47:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks Richard,

Forgotten is good enough for me, exactly where it should be. Seems to be about 65GBP and delivery, even have them on Ebay.

http://www.fuelsystem.co.uk/Out-tank%20fuel%20injection%20pumps.pdf Page 5 OTP020

Taped a microphone to the pump and hooked it up to an amp in the car. Soon as you hit the problem the pump makes a clatter which is conclusive. Curious fixing the in tank filter makes the cavitation worse, guess its just about flow characteristics of a stuffed pump.

Stefan
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2380
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 17 August, 2011 - 15:41:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

OK, the OTP020 seems to cross reference to just about any Bosch pump ! I did a quick search. The 0 540 254 909 seems to be the generic Bosch pump these days. Just about any pump will do it seems, at least if it has a nominal rating of 4-5 Bar and minimum 120 LPH.
application/pdf
Bosch Cross Reference Fuel Pumps.pdf (82.0 k)

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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2382
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 17 August, 2011 - 16:49:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Just to clarify to those who have realised that we are mad, here is an explanation.

The Bosch injection pump is essentially a positive displacement pump: it delivers approximately a constant flow rate of fuel regardless of the pressure.

The chart above is for a Bosch 0.580.254.909 pump, and it cross-references to the Sytec OTP020 pump ordered by Stefan for his Turbo R. It shows that the flow rate is more or less constant between 1 Bar and 7 Bar. Hence the pump is not critical provided it has an adequate flow capacity. The nominal pressure rating of 5 or 4 Bar is not at all critical as the actual operating pressure is set by the regulator. However, a flow rate of less than 100 LPH may be too low when driving a Turbo R hard. The maximum allowable flow rating for a pump is limited by the capacity of the fuel lines and of the regulator.

I am seeing that Bosch pump listed everywhere, and apparently it is suitable for Bosch injected SZs. It has the following ratings:

Bosch 0.580.254.909 Fuel Pump
Peak load 13 Amps at 12 Volts
Operating Pressure: 5 Bar (73 psi)
Minimum Flow at Pump Outlet, unrestricted: 148 LPH (39 gallons/hour)
Fuel Pump Location: In-Line (out of tank pump OTP)
Fuel Pump Connections:
Inlet: 12mm push-on
Outlet: M12 x 1.5
Negative terminal M4 thread; positive M5 thread
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 768
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, 17 August, 2011 - 16:50:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Stefan,

Do make sure that the outlet size is correct. A customer bought one for us to fit but the outlet was wrong.

As it was stuck on a ramp, we fitted a Bosch one to get it out. He got his money back for the pump though. I don't think this should be a problem for you though as you have the patience to wait for different adaptors.

Have you got a resistor fitted before the pump on your car / seen the sheet about it in the manual?
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2383
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 17 August, 2011 - 17:08:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Paul,

My manual TSED4736 K-014 states that the resistor should definitely not be fitted to Turbocharged cars. Has that view changed perhaps ?

RT.
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Stefan Morley
Grand Master
Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 314
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 17 August, 2011 - 17:21:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard,

And a lot cheaper!! Good you found that sheet and the cross reference.

Paul,

Thanks for the warning, need to keep the car reasonably mobile. Just measured, 12mm hose and the outlet can take a threaded section M12*1.5mm should be good to go.

No I don't have the resistor but should be easy enough to find. They are a 2R ?50W? part of the noise reduction kit. Aside from dropping the noise guess there is an added benefit in that the pump doesn't beat itself to death if air does ever get into it. ~~~ or delivery get restricted in the tank ~~~

Stefan
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Stefan Morley
Grand Master
Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 315
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 17 August, 2011 - 17:26:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard

I'm wondering if 2R is a little high.

Running the pump consumes say 7.5 amps with 12.5V on it. Approx running resistance 1.6R. Static more like 0.9R however thats only a startup issue. Stick a 2R resister in series and a over half the power is dropped in the resistor. Thats is a fair chunk.

With air or cavitation in the pump, no load on the motor would make it spin faster I imagine. A resister would help that but something to take the edge off more like 0.47R.

Stefan

(Message edited by myupctoys on 17 August 2011)
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2384
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 17 August, 2011 - 17:48:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Stefan,

2R would be hazardous in my opinion. If the voltage drops, then the pump may slow and overheat. If it stalls then the motor may burn up with just 6A or less flowing continuously and no fuse blow. If you really want the resistor (I would not) then I would perhaps suggest that you try 0.47R and 20W fin-clad surface mount to keep it cool.

RT.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2386
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 17 August, 2011 - 18:05:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

ps: the pump motor spins at a constant speed of about 5,000RPM until it starts to stall. Just as with the induction motors in your fridge, the load is essentially constant power regardless of terminal voltage. If the voltage drops, the current climbs until the motor runs slow. A slow running induction motor will burn out very quickly in a brownout. Although less pronounced in a Bosch pump motor, there is a similar effect. The current climbs and the losses increase rapidly. If the voltage falls too low and the motor slows a noticeably it runs the risk of overheating. Even with 0,47R or 0,33R there runs the risk of slowing, partial stalling and burning up.

From a design perspective, I consider the band-aid resistor to be a folly.

RT.
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Stefan Morley
Grand Master
Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 316
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 17 August, 2011 - 18:08:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard,

Suppose I'm thinking about things because I'm a bit miffed all it took was a bit of restriction to stuff up a second pump. Expect it after a couple of years and 20k on the clock but not less than 1k. Either that or it was already stuffed, very unlikely. Good warning to others.

Don't think I'll bother with the resistor and write the last experience off as bad luck.

Cheers
Stefan
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2387
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 17 August, 2011 - 18:21:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I would agree. BTW my old BMWs had pumps to be replaced by the OTP020 by the cross-references. I did hundreds of thousands of km in those cars and I never even knew where the pumps were located. I have never touched the one on my Turbo R, but have spotted it while doing other things under there...

What I mean is that the fuel pump should never misbehave. You certainly have had bad luck.

Having said that, I am probably tempting fate by mentioning all this, so maybe I'll be in the market for a new pump anytime now....

As discussed once between us, I have melted a few fuses and fuseholders on the pump feed, cured last year by an oversized fuse holder - even larger than the one specified in the service bulletin and fitted to my car around 1990 – and a large greencap to smooth the spikes. Placing more series impedance into the circuit just may make the apparent design flaw even worse.

RT.
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Stefan Morley
Grand Master
Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 317
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Sunday, 21 August, 2011 - 00:01:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi,

Pump issue solved and well on the way to sorting the AFR.

When I replaced the pump I simply assembled as per the old one. Didn't question it at the time, seemed straight forward enough. Seems someone in the past put a small washer between the damper and the banjo connection. Meant fuel flow was hopelessly restricted. Turned up a new copper washer the right size and all is well. Now have 1.3L in 30 secs.

Glad it peeved me enough to look further. Pump made a bit of noise for the first 30 secs now just a barely perceptible whine.

Now just got to get the EHA set right. It is a good day.

Cheers
Stefan
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2388
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 21 August, 2011 - 18:24:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Stefan,

It’s not clear to me. Did you remove the restriction, and now the pump works properly without replacing it ?

RT.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1022
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 21 August, 2011 - 18:43:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Great news mate - your detective work paid off.

Enjoy the rebirth of your car performing the way it was designed and built for and showing its true capabilities.

This outcome makes the contributions of everyone to forums such as this worth the effort.

It is not just a good day; it is a GREAT day.
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Stefan Morley
Grand Master
Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 318
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Sunday, 21 August, 2011 - 21:30:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard and David,

Outer washer on page 8 of http://rrtechnical.info/sz/tsd6167/8089_4/IMAGES/K_U/KU02.pdf between the banjo and the damper. Now I see it, so obvious. The fuel had to find its way between the thread of the pump outlet and the edge of a washer.

Yeah fortunately the pump seems fine. Just didn't sit comfortably with 700ml delivery with no pressure straight at the outlet with little real use. Fine a dead pump wouldn't be able to flow under pressure, but free flowing should still do something.

Been out for a drive. :-) Slight problem, too much power....... makes it difficult to "legally" see the AFR under full throttle. Least thats a problem I can live with.

Despite the saga, have no grumbles about length of time to find the root cause. Learnt a lot and found a lots of odds and sods that needed fixing anyway. Sad part is of the dozen or so things fixed only about 4 where fair wear and tear. Rest by people who don't take the time to care.

This forum is worth its weight. Met some great people who care about their cars and think outside the square. Thank you all for all the people who contributed and tolerated my meanderings.

Got there in the end.

Cheers
Stefan
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 772
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, 21 August, 2011 - 22:58:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

:-)

Happy Days!

That's one more thing to look out for!