| Author | Message | ||
     Peter Maclaren Experienced User Username: ludo Post Number: 15 Registered: 4-2009 |
Changing the coolant in 22650 didn't go quite as expected, even though I believe that I followed the instructions 'to the letter'. After draining the system by removing the radiator drain plug and the two crankcase plugs,the expected 18 litres,turned out to be around 14 litres, so I figured the rest must be in the engine or heater and not able to be emptied. When it came to the refilling the instructions came with a warning that'incorrect filling will create airlocks within the engine and cause irreparable damage due to resultant overheating' scary stuff! I disconnected the radiator to expansion bottle hose and fixed it above the level of the radiator top tank and removed the bleed screw from the top of the tank as per instructions. I next filled the expansion to the 'max' mark.This took some time and many litres of coolant,this seemed odd as the instructions seemed to suggest that that the main fill would be through the bleed plug hole.According to the instructions"when coolant flows from the radiator stub pipe it is time to reconnect the hose, however in my case the coolant rose in the expansion bottle and never came out the stub pipe.After cleaning up the overflow, and siphoning coolant from the overflow tank ,I concluded it wasn't going to, so I replaced the bleed screw and started the engine.This resulted in the coolant rising in the expansion bottle and it stayed high until the engine warmed up,when there was a gulping sound, presumably as the thermostat opened , and the level dropped rapidly,so it was time to 'top up' again. After the recommended time I switched the aircon to demist as per instructions and hot air emerged. Overnight the level in the expansion bottle dropped by about a litre and this has since been added.The engine temp indicates the same as usual, but the question of 'airlocks is a concern .I suppose what I am asking is my experience the norm or have I missed something. You advce would be appreciated, thanks, Peter | ||
| John McGhee New User Username: jam Post Number: 3 Registered: 10-2012 |
Dear Peter, I note that your post is from a while back but did not see any replies to it. Presumably 22650 did not self immolate after its coolant change? For 55208 I have just today followed the same factory instructions regarding refilling the cooling system and can confirm that I had PRECISELY the same experience as you. The lion's share of the coolant went into the reservoir with the last few litres down the bleed hole. Whilst that bit seems logical given the arrangement of the pipes, like you I was a little surprised to see coolant overflowing back through the reservoir rather than the radiator stub pipe as is clearly outlined in the directions. The reservoir overflow IS lower than the stub pipe though, so perhaps it shouldn't be too surprising. I remain concerned about a potential pocket of air between the height of the radiator bleed plug and the high point of the reservoir. I will have a think about that before I actually start the engine tomorrow. I am assuming that the engine galleries simply fill from the bottom hose up and that the jiggle pin in the thermostat allows any air to find its way out. With a double check of the instructions, I shall confirm success or failure in the morning! Kind regards John | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 959 Registered: 6-2006 |
We use a large funnel that fits tightly in the filler cap hole. We fill this to about 15cm above the cap level an open the bleeder. It will then fill the rad completely. You can then run the engine with the heater on defrost and open the bleed screw a couple of times to get any extra air out. Leave the funnel in there as the car gets warm and the excess coolant will fill the funnel. Turn off the engine and let it cool and it will pull the coolant back into the system. We usually do this a couple of times. Wait until you own your Seraph and you have to pack the car up a few feet etc!! | ||
| John McGhee New User Username: jam Post Number: 5 Registered: 10-2012 |
Paul, Many thanks for your reply. It sounds like a very good idea and I assume the tight fitting funnel effectively blocks off the reservoir overflow pipe. The Crewe instructions remain somewhat of a mystery though... save for the technique you mention, it would seem physically impossible for coolant to emerge from the stub pipe unless you had the car parked on a 45 degree angle to starboard side... As to the Seraph, let me try to survive my first few weeks of Spirit ownership first!! Thanks again. And thanks to the organisers of this FANTASTIC resource. The presence of this kind of support structure was instrumental in my decision to purchase a Rolls. Kind regards John | ||
| Peter Maclaren Experienced User Username: ludo Post Number: 26 Registered: 4-2009 |
I,m interested to hear of your experience John, as I had heard nothing after posting details of my attempts to get as much coolant back as came out, I assumed I must have been doing something wrong. Happy to say the car is still functioning well, even though a recent change of coolant produced exactly the same result .I have got around the problem by slowly adding the coolant to the reservoir on a weekly basis, until all in. Paul's suggestion sounds practical,so will give that a try next time | ||
| John McGhee New User Username: jam Post Number: 6 Registered: 10-2012 |
Hi Peter, I tried Paul's suggestion (wrapped some double sided tape around my funnel base to make it seal in the reservoir) and it worked. Water came bubbling up out of the bleed plug so I was confident there was no air in the system. But wait, there's more... Having done the first 'forward flush' of my system, I waited a while then drained the radiator again. Instead of the nice green stuff I saw the first time, this time it was reddy brown which I am concerned is from corrosion in the heater matrix. My car (Spirit 55208) has had very little use (45k km in 18 years) and I doubt there has been much call to use the heater/demister so who knows how long the coolant has been sitting there trapped by a closed water tap? It gets worse. On refilling a second time, I ran the engine to warm as before but then noticed a reasonable drip of warm water coming from behind the engine (between the two into one join of the exhaust and the transmission sump to be precise). I suspect the heater matrix is gone or, at best, a hose/clamp is dead. Has anyone else out there had this less than positive experience?? You try to do the right thing by the old girl and she turns around and bites you... I never did like Mr Murphy and his wretched law! John | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1208 Registered: 4-2003 |
John, Do not discount old heater hoses that should have been replaced years ago becoming incontinent after being flushed out. I would expect the type of crud you experienced from a neglected cooling system I always replace all cooling system and heater hoses every 5 to 6 years regardless of how much or how little the car has been driven. A leaking heater matrix usually results in the interior of the car smelling like "parfum de antifreeze" within a very short time. | ||
| John McGhee New User Username: jam Post Number: 7 Registered: 10-2012 |
Thank you David, I have let the girl cool for a few hours and am now proceeding with my third 'forward flush'. The water was much cleaner this time, of course. Hopefully it is just a hose as I have the newby's fear that I may have done something horrible to the engine. I only ran it for 10 minutes the first time and then let it sit for a further 30 minutes before draining and I am concerned that I should have left it longer. The water that drained out was warm, but I could certainly touch it. I then refilled the system with tepid tap water VERY slowly (a litre a minute). The presence of the water leak only came up on the second flush, which is what has me nervous. I suppose I won't know until I know. Fingers crossed all is ok! My plan is it to run her to warm now and then switch off the defroster to see if that stops the water leak. If so, I assume that means I have isolated the problem to 'behind' the heater tap and will go find someone with more skilled hands than me to take over. If not, well there is always single malt... Thank you again, I shall let you know what transpires! | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 960 Registered: 6-2006 |
is your air con working!? Condensate from the evaporator matrix also drains in that area! Hoping for your sake you've made that common mistake instead of a matrix . | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 961 Registered: 6-2006 |
ps. you will need to clamp both heater hoses to isolate the heater matrix , not just turn off the heater. undo the air con compressor clutch feed wire whilst testing . | ||
| John McGhee New User Username: jam Post Number: 8 Registered: 10-2012 |
Thanks Paul, The air is working and dribbles from the usual tubes. The 'new' leak is more substantial and evident on the other side of the transmission sump (ie drivers side). I will finish the flushing with demineralised water and then take her in to be inspected. I understand the system can be pressure tested to help isolate the leak. If it is indeed the matrix then so be it, although there is no evidence of water inside the car. Lets keep fingers crossed it is a hose, which I find a more palatable nightmare than the thought I have warped something seriously expensive!! Shall keep you posted. John | ||
| Randy Roberson Frequent User Username: wascator Post Number: 84 Registered: 5-2009 |
If the heater matrix leaks will it typically drain out the evaporator pan drain? | ||
| Jeff Young Prolific User Username: jeyjey Post Number: 110 Registered: 10-2010 |
I was under the impression that the evaporator was in front of the bulkhead while the heater matrix was behind it. (So the evaporator pan drains lead outside, whereas a leaking heater matrix would leak inside?) Jeff. | ||
| Adrian Jump Unregistered guest Posted From: 84.13.140.45 |
I too have recently changed coolant on a 96 Brooklands, the workshop instructions did not seem workable as water will find it's level. Therefore with the expansion tank being lower than the rad bleed plug the expansion tank would obviously overflow before the rad filled to capacity. I filled the system through the rad bleed hole until the expansion tank reached it's correct level, then putting the expansion tank cap on I continued to fill through the rad bleed hole until the rad was full to the top. The expansion tank remained at the same level as the cap now fitted prevented air escaping thus stopping the level rising further. I then refitted the rad bleed plug and took the cap off the expansion tank. Similarly as the rad is now capped off water level cannot rise in the expansion tank. I ran the engine until the thermostat opened, (expansion tank cap still removed)then opened the rad bleed plug to ensure no air trapped there.I let the system cool completely and just checked the level in the expansion tank before refitting the cap to it. Anyone done the same? Regards, Adrian (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| A.R. Greenberg Experienced User Username: bergxu Post Number: 13 Registered: 2-2012 |
As above, when I changed the coolant in my former '96 Turbo R there was no drama and in fact, I just refilled via the expansion tank with the rad bleed screw undone, ran the car until I had heat, topped back up and had no worries since. On my most recent purchase, an '89 Turbo R, I'll shortly be doing the same and expect no hang ups. | ||
| John McGhee Experienced User Username: jam Post Number: 12 Registered: 10-2012 |
Hi all, Just closing the loop on this one... I have had to sit patiently and wait for a new reservoir to pump hose before refilling the now fully flushed 55208 with coolant (I used Castrol NF). Whilst I still have water drips from the back of the engine area in TWO places, I am overjoyed to report that the substance that drips is neither blue-green nor sweet smelling. As Paul (and others) suggested, it was clean H2O. Unfortunately, I couldn't test this before today because all that was in the system was clean water courtesy of my back flushing! I invite much laughter at my the expense of my neurotic paranoia :-) I can only assume that with the defroster on high, the air conditioning on cold and the driver's door wide open, the poor girl was trying to dehumidify the entire suburb. This must account for the quantity of liquid, which was a multiple of anything I have seen drizzling from an AC pipe before. Still, I would prefer your laughter at this schoolboy error than your pity were I to need a new matrix, so all in all I am a happy fellow today, with a fully functional RRMC. I will now proceed to the next bit of self torture, replacing the transmission fluid. Speak to you all soon. John | ||
| Robin Hall Yet to post message Username: bombguy54 Post Number: 1 Registered: 6-2013 |
I read through the steps for the flushing of the engine block then looked at the actual under-hood undertaking; I knew it was going to be a bear trying to do the step-by-step per the Service Manual, so… My experience is primarily with U.S. cars. Flushing, (or more correctly, back-flushing) an engine block simply entails draining the system coolant out through the radiator drain, inserting a T-fitting (the T-fitting is threaded to accept the standard garden hose) into the heater hose, secure the radiator drain, remove the radiator cap, open the heater core and run the garden hose until clear water flows out the radiator filler neck. Because the potential exists that crud from inside the engine block could get pushed into the bottom of the radiator or into the heater core, when I do this procedure I disconnect the lower radiator hose at the radiator and bypass the heater core, and then flush until clear water flows out of the lower radiator hose. I studied the coolant flow chart in the Service Manual and came up with a procedure MUCH simpler that achieved the same end as the tedious, protracted procedure in the Service Manual. I expect my hell will be to spend eternity working on Bentley/Rolls strictly by the service manual for the heresy submitted below. Because my heater core failed (and destroyed a very expensive pair of dress shoes when coolant leaked onto them), I removed the heater core (a REAL fun job for those who haven’t had THAT delightful experience) and had the heater core repaired and rod-ed out. Point here is that I wasn’t concerned with the flushing out of the heater core. As above, we don’t want to push crud that might be released by the back-flushing from the engine block into the heater core so consider bypassing the heater core or ensuring that the heater core valve is closed during this flushing procedure. 1) Drain the coolant from the system through the radiator drain plug 2) Remove the thermostat housing, and remove the thermostat. (Since the thermostat is out, consider testing it before re-install) 3) Re-install the thermostat housing, sans thermostat. Don’t waste a new housing gasket; for this procedure you won’t need one, anyway. The marrying flanges between the block and housing are machined well enough that what they will leak is insignificant 4) Remove the lower radiator hose from the radiator 5) From the local hardware store obtain an expanding sewer line flusher (1”-3”?) (This device is attached to a garden hose and is inserted into a plugged sewer line. Water pressure causes the flusher to expand inside the sewer line sealing it, then, once sealed, allows water to flow into the sewer pipe and uses water pressure to push the “plug” out of the sewer line.) It is this device that is used to perform this blasphemy of a procedure to back-flush the engine block. Since the length of the flusher is greater than that of the neck of the thermostat housing it is necessary to support the expanding flusher. (Because I planned to replace all the cooling hoses, I cut the upper hose at the first bend nearest the thermostat housing. I would think that if your intent was to reuse the original hose it might be possible to insert the expanding sewer line flusher into the radiator side of the upper hose however I cannot confirm this as viable. In any case, if you’re going so far as to flush the cooling system, why wouldn’t you want to change the hoses, right?) 6) Attach the garden hose to the flusher and insert the flusher into the upper radiator hose, then apply water pressure. Flush until clear water flows from the lower radiator hose. 7) Refit thermostat with a fresh gasket, install all hoses to original configuration and re-fill system with coolant per Service Manual. Oh, wait. That won’t work, right? The coolant container fills before coolant emerges from the overflow pipe on the radiator. See the other posts on this topic. | ||
| Randy Roberson Prolific User Username: wascator Post Number: 133 Registered: 5-2009 |
On SRH9391 I removed the block plugs when I flushed but I found the most crud in the transmission oil cooler (this one is mounted down at the transmission and has coolant piped to it via hoses). This assembly contained a substantial amount of coolant which would not have drained unless I took it apart. I think I also may have had an air pocket after refilling but I got it resolved eventually. Her heater core was bypassed so I had that to repair; while I was at it I got the flap bushings. That was a "kudzu" job: it grew faster than I could cut it. | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 490 Registered: 1-2008 |
Although my Shadow hasn't had any real problems in the cooling system - apart from a slight leak from the heater valve, but only while it is moving from open to closed and vice versa - I found on another car that reverse flushing still left me with cold air from the heater. On a hunch I disconnected both heater hoses and reverse flushed the heater separately. After a moment's 'hesitation' I was rewarded with a plug of thick brown gunge followed by a jet of dirty water which slowly turned clear. Having run that car with fresh coolant for several K miles/kilometres the heater is as good, if not better then, as on any of my cars. Re. giving the system a head of water when refilling I usually put the front end on ramps while I refill it. Depending on the car I will also take a 2-litre pop bottle with the bottom cut off and the neck wrapped in gaffer tape to form a water tight seal when inserted into the filler neck. OK, so you will lose a little coolant, but that has to be a lot cheaper than cooking even the little Honda engine in my 1992 Rover 216 Cabriolet. |
