| Author | Message | ||
     Nigel Ralph New User Username: nigel_ralph Post Number: 6 Registered: 5-2005 |
Hi everyone. Have finally re-emerged with another and this time fairly serious problem. The old girl is overheating! Took the radiator out, had it checked, and it is fine. Had a new waterpump about 2 years ago and I believe it's fine also. Thermostat is relatively new and looks fine. Does anyone have any ideas as to what could be causing the overheating? Have had 2x1000km return trips (4000km) recently and the car went beautifully. After a 20km trip the engine is obviously hot and gurgling/boiling sounds come from the engine but the radiator isn't boiling and the relief valve for the coolant isn't letting anything out. (New relief valve and seals as well). We are stumped! | ||
| Stefan Morley Prolific User Username: myupctoys Post Number: 168 Registered: 7-2009 |
Hi Nigel, My car is different model. But for what its worth my themostat looked almost new and for the most part worked fine. But when I took it out; based on a comments on the forum about my temperature guage being a little more animated than it should be. Discoverd it only opened about half way when placed in boiling water. New themostat later no issues. Might be worth a check. Stefan | ||
| Nigel Ralph New User Username: nigel_ralph Post Number: 7 Registered: 5-2005 |
Thanks Stefan, but I have also tried it without the thermostat with precisely the same result. My mechanic friend pointed out that in Nth Qld with temps around 30 for 6 months of the year, the thermostat wasn't really effective except during our coldest days in winter, so I took it out and he was right. There was no difference. We really are stumped! How can the engine block appear to be boiling while the radiator etc appears to be operating? The new-fangled heat guns show the temp to be between 91 and 108, depending on where you point them. I don't know how the coolent passages in the block run but is it possible one has become blocked? Remember this is only a recent occurance and the car has had a couple of trips in the last three months without any problems. I do have a number of oil leaks but these are slow and the oil only goes down gradually, so I don't think there's a problem there. It definitely has to be with the cooling system. | ||
| John Kilkenny Frequent User Username: john_kilkenny Post Number: 93 Registered: 6-2005 |
Removing the thermostat is not a good idea because the dual action thermostat used in the Shadow shuts off the radiator by-pass when the coolant reaches operating temperature and is allowed to flow through the radiator. You should check the thermostat by removing it and placing it in a saucepan of boiling water to ensure it opens fully. If OK put it back and run the engine for around ten minutes. When the thermostat opens the upper radiator hose will feel hot and you can also use your IR thermometer to see a temperature difference between the top and bottom radiator tanks (not the header tank) If still no flow through the radiator all that is left is a non operating water pump but my bet would be on a faulty thermostat. | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1205 Registered: 4-2003 |
Interesting Ralph. My next step would be to check the pump. Believe it or not impellers come loose despite press fitting etc! Drain the coolant, remove the thermostat fill the system with water but leave the top hose disconnected from the radiator. Point it up and bit and lock the thermostat housing end clamp to hold it. Start the engine. The pump should send a great jet of water out the top hose. If not remove the pump and check the impeller. Report back!! | ||
| Omar M. Shams Frequent User Username: omar Post Number: 96 Registered: 4-2009 |
I have had an impeller come off before. It is not an unlikely event. The evidence will be in the scouring of the vanes when you remove it. It has nowhere to go when it spins on the shaft so its efficiency drops by the amount of slip. Also, checking a radiator is a very difficult thing to be certain of. Is there a good radiator that can be tried from a different car perhaps? Good luck. | ||
| Nigel Ralph New User Username: nigel_ralph Post Number: 8 Registered: 5-2005 |
Thanks John, Bill and Omar. I should get the radiator back today and then will follow your suggestion Bill. It does seem an easy way to check the pump. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2033 Registered: 4-2003 |
This applies to all Crewe cars at least between 1946 and 1998. The surest war to cause reduced cooling capacity, maybe by 50% or more, is to remove the thermostat or put in a generic conventional single-action type. There is so much spare cooling capacity in these cooling systems that even a dodgy system should not overheat. Sure, you may be chasing a dislodged impeller, but you may also be chasing a blown head gasket or cracked head, usually caused by a faulty or non-genuine thermostat. I never trust a thermostat once it has benn in service for much more than 7 years. RHT.. | ||
| Stefan Morley Prolific User Username: myupctoys Post Number: 169 Registered: 7-2009 |
Nigel, Something to consider and I imagine there would be red faces from the person concerned if it where the case. Considering you have had work done in this area, did someone stuff a rag down a hole and forget to take it out? Pretty unlikely but it does happen. Stefan | ||
| Stefan Morley Prolific User Username: myupctoys Post Number: 170 Registered: 7-2009 |
Nigel, Should follow Bills concept, make sure coolant is circulating through to the radiator. If it is circulating and you still have issues.... dont want to think about what might be happening. Stefan | ||
| Nigel Ralph New User Username: nigel_ralph Post Number: 9 Registered: 5-2005 |
HI, thanks for the feedback. Makes me feel real positive! Well I got the radiator back with a clean bill of health but while I was waiting I flushed the engine good and proper and all seems to be well. After about 20mins running the hose from thermostat (removed) to lower radiator hose, I removed the plugs from the block and flushed it as well. No obvious blockages and the water flowed freely. When I tried to put the radiator back in I swore something terrible. The holes just didn't seem to match up. Not only that, they missed by a long way. It took me a while but I finally realized that the chap had soldered the side frames on the wrong sides! so it goes back again first thing tomorrow for a redo. Shall keep you posted re the waterpump. I also tested the thermostat in a saucepan and its fine. Sort of looks more and more like the waterpump though someone suggested the fan clutch could be faulty. One can certainly hear it when it cuts in but apparently a simple test is to see that it freewheels when cold but when the engine is hot it should show a bit of resistance to being manually turned. Shall check it when the radiator's back in. Good to hear from you Richard. In a posting a couple of years ago I did inform the forum that I checked the thermostat once and found that it didn't have one. I asked then for advice about it but I immediately ordered one from Robert Chapman and put it in. It has been in and out a few times since then but shall certainly stay in in future. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 505 Registered: 6-2006 |
Nigel, sides on wrong . . . It's a bitch when that happens! If it was the fan coupling, it would usually be fine on the open road and then overheat quickly as soon as you hit slow moving traffic. To test get the engine hot, then rev to about 2000 RPM and take foot off the accelerator and turn off the engine at the same time. Watch the fan, it should stop turning almost immediately. Check that the air con matrix if front of the radiator hasn't been blocked by a plague of locusts. What happens if you leave the radiator cap off? Water pump off and on would be a quick job now with the rad out. I'd whip it off while waiting for the rad to be returned. | ||
| Nigel Ralph New User Username: nigel_ralph Post Number: 10 Registered: 5-2005 |
Hi Paul, great to hear from you again. Your suggestion re the fan clutch is too obvious. Why didn't I even think of it? So simple and yet so practical. Shall check it once the old girl's back together. Certainly better than a manual turn! Aircon matrix is fine. Blew out a few dragonfly pieces with the airgun but very little otherwise. The whole thing started about three weeks ago when the cooling system wasn't pressurising. I soon discovered that the pressure valve had disintergrated so got a new one complete with new seals etc. But when that/they went in the problem didn't disappear!!!! The engine still ran hot! though not dramatically so. Certainly enough to cause concern. Would love to check the water pump myself but I really haven't a clue as I'm a bl---- primary school teacher. Have learnt more about cars and their engines in the last few years than I have in the previous 50. Luv the therapy! The only problem is that very often there are bits left over, that's why I leave the real mechanic's work up to my mate. I hoped that Bill Colburn's test would tell me if my waterpump was working or not and I would have done it today if I could have got the radiator back in. Definitely tomorrow. | ||
| Nigel Ralph Experienced User Username: nigel_ralph Post Number: 11 Registered: 5-2005 |
Problem solved (I think)! Radiator back in. Tried Bill's suggestion but simply made a huge mess and no discernable flow from the thermostat hose. Put everything back together including thermostat. Ran the engine with rainwater in it but the thermostat gasket started leaking and when I tightened it I stripped the thread so will have to tap it out to the next size up. When this happened the drip turned into a squirt so I assumed the waterpump was working. Is my assumption correct? Will drain the rainwater later today and refill with coolent but as I'm off on hols, no further confirmation will occur until mid Jan. Thanks everyone for your help. My advice from now on is to ensure that the thermostat is in and working. As Neil Chapman pointed out: Without the thermostat the coolent will probably just rush around the engine rather than go to the radiator. Have a safe and happy Christmas everyone and thank you all for your assistance. I just love picking up practical ideas to check that everything is working as it should. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 506 Registered: 6-2006 |
Nigel - thread loss - If you can, get the existing hole helicoiled to the existing bolts. It's quite soft aluminium and is better with a stainless helicoil than going bigger. Have a great holiday! | ||
| Nigel Ralph Experienced User Username: nigel_ralph Post Number: 12 Registered: 5-2005 |
Hi Paul Went in to get larger bolts plus a tap and the chap in the engineering shop (who's kids I have taught) advised me to try going a slightly longer bolt. Did so (after tapping the hole to make sure the thread was deep and clean) and it worked like a dream. After 35 years it is understandable that a number of people along the way have tested the limits of steel vs aluminium and I just had to be the last, where it simply gave way. I really liked your suggestion for testing the fan clutch. I did so when everything was back together, and the fan stopped almost immediately though I could still turn it quite freely by hand. I am really stuffed with this little overheating problem. It has come on quite suddenly and co-incided with the pressure relief valve giving up the ghost. Even with the thermostat in I still think the engine is running too hot. My earlier post has really got me thinking! With the thermostat out I can't see why water doesn't flow to the radiator better than with the thermostat in as the thermostat is designed to direct the coolent through the engine until it gets hot enough to open the thermostat and allow it through to the radiator! All I want in Nth Qld is to encourage it to go through the radiator rather than through the block, which is why it has been out lately. As I've had the thermostat in and out a few times without any observable problems, and did the last two trips with it out, I can't see why this overheating is only now becoming noticeable, though temps here have climbed. If the waterpump wasn't working I doubt if I could go 5 km without something dramatic happening. There is still a possibility that it's the fan clutch though the fan stopped pretty well along with the engine when I turned it off. I've blown head-gaskets in other cars and one usually notices a drop in performance and sometimes a bit of water spitting out the exhaust though with the Shadow exhaust I think it would evaporate before it got completely out. But there has been no drop in performance! I really am stuffed! though I haven't tried it on the raod as yet and only have rainwater in the system, not coolent, so it would run hotter. I am not yet convinced that the thermostat back in has solved my problem (despite my claim in my previous posting. A bit of thought simply raises too many questions.) Anyway it is about to sit for 3 weeks and I'm simply goin to enjoy the grandkids, kids (wife too of course)and try a bit of body surfing again. Shall ponder the problem when I return, though any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your thoughts. | ||
| John Kilkenny Frequent User Username: john_kilkenny Post Number: 94 Registered: 6-2005 |
Nigel, If you can't see why the cooling system is more efficient with the thermostat than without it I suggest you read the article on the cooling system in Issue 61 of Tee One Topics. It may be that if you have been running the car with the thermostat removed, the onset of warmer weather has caused your problem. Incidently a borderline system will run cooler with rainwater than with standard anti-freeze as plain water has a significantly better heat transfer capability. The only reason glycol anti-freeze is used in a warm climate is for the anti-corrosion additives it contains. It does increase the boiling point somewhat but this doesn't matter much for a pressurised system. | ||
| Omar M. Shams Frequent User Username: omar Post Number: 99 Registered: 4-2009 |
Nigel, I have visited QLD and yes it gets warm there, but take it from me, it gets hotter here in Dubai. These cars cope well with high ambients despite their age - if all is well. Your car has no tempereture guage by design. Have you considered fitting one to see what the temperature profile is like from start to when the problem manifests itself? Also, what are your indicators that your car is overheating? is it coolant loss only? are the hoses getting hard with pressure? are you able to verify Stefan's very good point about a possible man-made blockage? what did the radiator man have to say about the condition of the rad when he tore it apart? was it very dirty inside? did he disamtle the radiator into its components? enjoy the surf and the holidays. Omar | ||
| Nigel Ralph Experienced User Username: nigel_ralph Post Number: 13 Registered: 5-2005 |
Thanks John, shall check it straight after this. Omar, the radiator was in good condition with no blockages at all. It was pulled apart and rods run through to ensure no build up of anything. While it was out I flushed the whole system and there didn't seem to be any blockage through the block at all. It had a good 20 mins flush with the drain plugs in and hoses on (to get height to the top of the engine, then another 20 mis with the drainplugs removed. The only indicator that the engine is overheating is that when I stop and open the bonnet there appears to be boiling type sounds coming from under the rocker covers (though of course it must be from the block under the rocker covers). This whole problem seems to have developed as a result of the pressure valve in the radiator finally giving way and the system failing to pressurize. I haven't taken it for a road-run since putting it back together but I did run the engine for some time to get it hot and test the fan clutch (which stopped when I stopped the engine) but the boiling type sounds were evident after that so the replaced thermostat and all the flushing didn't cure it. Maybe its a head gasket (I won't even consider a cracked head ... ostrich syndrome) so unless I can come up with something that will be the next thing. It doesn't match up though as there is no reduction in fluid from the cooling system. | ||
| Nigel Ralph Experienced User Username: nigel_ralph Post Number: 14 Registered: 5-2005 |
Great article John. Even I could understand it. I hadn't realized that as the thermostat opened it closed off the lower pipe and directed all the coolent to the radiator. Am I right in assuming that the hose from the thermostat to the radiator would become hard only when the engine is hot enough for the thermostat to open and hence pressurize the hose? It is the pump that pressurizes the system as well as circulating the coolent, isn't it? Before taking the radiator out the hose from the thermostat to the radiator would get quite firm (and hot) which was why my mechanic friend thought the radiator was blocked, thereby causing the overheating. I didn't really check that yesterday and may not have run the engine long enough, but the squirt of water coming from the thermostat cover indicated to me that the pump was actually working. Could I be incorrect in this assumption? | ||
| bob uk Unregistered guest Posted From: 212.183.140.23 |
Plain water with 50% antifreeze has only very slightly less cooling capacity. impellors coming loose only ususally happens when the pump has been rebuilt at some stage-- reconditioned pumps. Thermostat important due to bypass. lots of mechanics overlook the bypass crank engine with thermostat housing off and water should pump out of thermostat hole The Shadow was tested to extremes by RR and are not known for overheating engine should run at 88 to 90 with brief 95 OK (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Stefan Morley Prolific User Username: myupctoys Post Number: 171 Registered: 7-2009 |
Nigel, I guess the biggest fear is block/head cracks. Most other things would be feasibly resovled. You've proabbly looked, oil in the water, or water in the oil. Tell tale holes on the side of the block between the wet liners seals. Spark plug condition. When the issue has only just started unless its catostrophic, the clues tend to be very minor. My thinking, your hearing coolant/water boiling near the rockers. From my thinking the only reaons that would happen is either, no coolant flowing in that region (blocked) causing the coolant to boil. Or combustion gasses escaping into the coolant foring effectivley a gas pocket. That gas pocket would be hot anyway, no coolant on the metal in the area, means any water near it would boil when it did finally come in contact with the affected area. Maybe a leak test of the combustion chambers. Crude test, just take the readiator cap off a running engine, the coolant will slowly rise to some level and sit there while the car is idling. As it gets hotter it will rise more but that should take a while. If there is a combustion leak tend to keep risng and overflowing even when cold. Not trying be negative, more trying to discount it. Stefan | ||
| Stefan Morley Prolific User Username: myupctoys Post Number: 172 Registered: 7-2009 |
Nigel, The other thing to try is use either a mechanics stethoscope, or even a long screw driver with your ear against it and really identify the source of the boiling sound. Might be somethign like a pipe to the cars heater with an air pocket in it. Stefan | ||
| John Kilkenny Frequent User Username: john_kilkenny Post Number: 95 Registered: 6-2005 |
Nigel, Feeling the increased temperature of the top hose near the radiator is a simple way of checking that the thermostat has opened. If it happens within 5 minutes you can also assume that the pump is working. It shouldn't feel much harder under normal conditions as the reason for pressurising the system is to raise the temperature at which the coolant will boil. In fact a hard hose could suggest a blocked radiator. Regarding Bob's comment, the difference in heat transfer capability (technically specific heat capacity) between plain water and a 50 per cent glycol mixture is about 20 per cent. If you have an IR thermometer and want to check the radiator flow and efficiency, the temperature difference between the top radiator tank and the coolant inlet pipe to the engine will be around 30 degrees C ( e.g. 90 and 60) for a good radiator at running temperature. | ||
| Omar M. Shams Frequent User Username: omar Post Number: 100 Registered: 4-2009 |
Nigel, "The only indicator that the engine is overheating is that when I stop and open the bonnet there appears to be boiling type sounds coming from under the rocker covers (though of course it must be from the block under the rocker covers)." Do these noises stop when the engine is switched off? If not, how long do they persist for? Are the noises comming from both sides of the car? | ||
| Nigel Ralph Experienced User Username: nigel_ralph Post Number: 15 Registered: 5-2005 |
Thanks for the feedback. I'm online so much today as I'm cleaning the house prior to going away. Sounds crazy as it should be the other way round. Some great simple ideas to test things, especially the combustion leak, but I'm just wondering whether I have inadvertently caused the whole problem. A few weeks ago I took the heater tap out to send off to be reconditioned. I joined the two pipes coming across the top of the engine with a length of hose and because they are relatively close together the hose has a kink in it preventing any flow at all. The remaining hoses from the heater I simply left disconnected. Could it be possible that this is the source of the sound with coolent in the pipe not going anywhere and hence boiling within those pipes and sounding as though its under the rocker covers? They run right beside the passenger side rocker cover. | ||
| Stefan Morley Prolific User Username: myupctoys Post Number: 173 Registered: 7-2009 |
Nigel, A kink in the heater hose. If the water was cold, the therostat would be shut, the heater piping would be tapped off before the thermostat. Water pressure would force its way though the heater piping, hit the kink and could make all sorts of strange noises. Possible if the coolant was hot for quite a while after the car was off. My water tap also has a problem. Stupid design. Stefan | ||
| Stefan Morley Prolific User Username: myupctoys Post Number: 174 Registered: 7-2009 |
Nigel, Was thinking more along the lines of the noise of water passing the kink irregularily. Not nessecarily boiling. My water tap makes all sort of strange noises at a certain rev range that get transferred to the heater core in the car. Had me stuffed for quite a while. Stefan | ||
| Nigel Ralph Experienced User Username: nigel_ralph Post Number: 16 Registered: 5-2005 |
Hi Omar, we must have been online at the same time and I missed your post. The noise continues for some time after the engine is turned off. The sound appears to be coming from the top of the engine and can be heard from both sides. Stefan, I shall try the screwdriver/stethoscope on the heater pipes running beside the passenger side rocker cover and see if thats it. I just hope that its my kinked/bent hose that is causing any coolent in the pipe to boil. It matches up timewise with my sudden awareness brought on by the pressure valve disintegrating and the system having watery convulsions when the engine was turned off. (Valve now replaced) I hope that the pressure valve malfunction, plus my thermostat out, plus the warmer weather, plus my heater tap out and the hose bent, all coincided to make me a trifle nervous and now that the thermostat is back in, no serious or disasterous eventuality will occur. Still suffering from ostrich syndrome but while there's hope there's .... hope. | ||
| Neville Davies Experienced User Username: nev_davies Post Number: 19 Registered: 9-2006 |
Nigel You said at the start that the rad cap is not releasing coolant.Have you actually measured the engine temperature?Forget the noise and temp gauge, would have thought the relief cap would have operated had the car actually boiled.Just my 2 pennyworth Nev | ||
| Nigel Ralph Experienced User Username: nigel_ralph Post Number: 17 Registered: 5-2005 |
You're right Neville. It doesn't fit a standard pattern. Without the thermostat in the temps varied from 91 to 108. No coolent lost through the pressure relief valve. No loss of coolent. Simply sounds of boiling and heat at the top of the engine. I hope its from the pipes to the heater tap which is currently out and the hose joining the two pipes passing over the engine is kinked. Won't be able to test temps until I get back but I assume that with the thermostat in the temps will be in the 90s. | ||
| Omar M. Shams Prolific User Username: omar Post Number: 101 Registered: 4-2009 |
Nigel, you may have got the message from the rest of the help team that we rather like having a temperature guage between us.  The image above shows the instaltion in my Shadow 1. I would never dream of driving a classic car in a desert without knowing what the temperature is under the bonnet. sounds too much like Russian Roulettte to me. Let us take your thoughts away from doom and gloom for a moment. My thoughts are begining to sway in the direction of water hammer. Water hammer is what you get when you have air trapped in a system that is not deigned to have air in. The most commonly understood version of this is the domestic central heating radiator. My next test for your car would be to connect the inlet and outlet of the heater piping using a temporary hose. This bypasses the heater and makes a direct connection form the heater supply line to the heater return line. Next I would fill her up with rain water and then run the engine with the radiator cap off. Keep filling her up till she overflows. When she has stabilzed, put the cap back on and then see if you have the same problem. Let us know............... Richard, I will post a little something about the Metro for you. | ||
| Nigel Ralph Experienced User Username: nigel_ralph Post Number: 18 Registered: 5-2005 |
Hi Omar I am hoping that your suggestion is the problem and that there are several coincidences that have simply made me panic a bit. Firstly I had the thermostat out at a time when our daily temperature had climbed. Secondly I had taken the heater tap out and sent it away to be reconditioned. While it was out I connected the heater supply line to the heater return line with a flexible hose about 200mm long and it actually got kinked doing the U turn. I believe this then prevented any continuous flow and the coolent in the pipes boiled and this is the sound I believed was coming from the engine block. Thirdly, the pressure relief valve in the radiater disintegrated and so the cooling system failed to pressurize. This gave some deep gurgling type sounds that disappeared when the relief valve was replaced. However I then became aware of the boiling type sounds which I now believe are coming from the pipes to the heater tap (now joined by a kinked hose. I am away till mid January so can't test it and hopefully by then I will have the heater tap back in and the car will run normally. (Still the osterich syndrome) Whoever put your temp gauge in the dash certainly knew what they were doing. What are the connections to the engine? | ||
| Nigel Ralph Experienced User Username: nigel_ralph Post Number: 19 Registered: 5-2005 |
Hi All, At long last everything is back together and functioning as it should. The boiling sounds disappeared once the new heater tap was installed so I assume the sound came from coolent in the two pipes between the rocker covers which could not go anywhere because of the kink in the hose I joined their two ends with. By the way, I compliment all you who can put a heater tap in position and all nuts tightened up properly. It took me two and a half days! I lost two nuts and one washer although I found the washer after hosing out where I thought they were. Absolute sheer frustration! I would work at it for ages then give up for a few hours. Then one morning the last nut actually turned on the thread and I was away. You cannot imagine my elation. Thank you all for your advice back in December. For reasons I will not go into I did not get my new heater tap until recently. | ||
| Nigel Ralph Experienced User Username: nigel_ralph Post Number: 22 Registered: 5-2005 |
Hi Everyone I refer to Bill Colburn's response on 16th Dec 09 and wish to say that after several years of running quite normally the old girl has had an overheating problem again. She had been going quite well until I did the juvenile thing of chasing a neighbour of mine in a restored Chev. We made speeds of about 140km/hr before my home was reached. The next day the overheating problems returned. Thermostat is fine. (Tested on the stove top in boiling water). Tried various things such as feeling the warmth of the top radiator hose and it got warm about 7-8 minutes after starting in the morning. Fan coupling is fine. I have tried Bills suggestion - thermostat out, top radiator hose disconected from radiator and pointed up and out. This initially gave a big squirt then nothing. I simply assume that the pump pushed all the water within reach out and then had no more to pump. Bill, is my assumption correct regarding the water pump? My concern is that if the pump and thermostat are working, what could be causing the overheating? Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. | ||
| Omar M. Shams Prolific User Username: omar Post Number: 188 Registered: 4-2009 |
Dear Nigel, Here are your options: The worst case scenario is that you have blown one or two head gaskets, or cracked a liner. The more realsitic one however, given that all you did different form normal operation was to run the engine at faster speeds for sustained periods is this: The cooling system would have seen a higher flow of coolant through it - and at higher temperature. This will assist in dislodging partcles that have been sitting dormant in the cooling system and they will all end up in your radiator. Chances are that your radiator is probably blocked. Do you have access to another radiator that is a known entity to test this theory? I once had an experience of the water pump impeller falling off the shaft, but that is very rare and unusual. | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1306 Registered: 4-2003 |
Dear Nigel/ I am somewhat committed elsewhere at the moment but could not resist reading the history. I second Omar's prediction of a blocked radiator. Please control your language when you read this but best you remove the radiator and get your man to 'rod it'(I expect you would feel like 'rodding' the whole car at this stage! While the radiator is away having its colonoscopy, you should try and clean the block as best you can. I suspect the detritus around the bottom of the liners is stacked up and your lead footing was enough to move it. I used to have a swimming pool pump with a sand filter (minus sand) and I could pump water through the system. The muck was collected by the ceramic intake at the bottom of the filter. There are modern pump flushers available to move the muck but I would worry about the pressure forcing a leak at one of the lower liner seals. Having done all that and got your radiator back and fitted, be sure to install a stocking (?????) in the upper intake of the radiator. This will filter any muck out that is dislodged in the block. In the good old days we used to chop off the foot end of the girlfriend's stockings, which was hazardous to say the least and poke them up the intake spout of the radiator top tank, spread the open end around the 'mouth' of the spout and carefully slide the hose over it. However comma, we now have commercial versions made by a banana bender mob in Wolvi ????????? God you people are strange but we luv you!!! They are called Cleanflow Radiator Filters Australia Pty Ltd. Like their prophylactic comparatives they come in three sizes and medium should suit your requirement! Must to work or I will be sacked again! Keep us posted! | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 733 Registered: 6-2006 |
I'll have one of what Bill's been drinking :D | ||
| John Kilkenny Prolific User Username: john_kilkenny Post Number: 114 Registered: 6-2005 |
Nigel, I noticed from the start of this thread that you inferred the overheating from gurgling noises in the cooling system. Is it the same this time or is there some other evidence such as poor idling or reduced performance ? Do you have access to a IR temperature gauge for checking the top and bottom tanks of the radiator ? If the top tank is about 85 degrees C and there is a 25-30 degree difference the radiator is probably OK. Before removing the radiator it is probably worth doing a quick check for a blown gasket. Start the engine from cold with the heater on, the radiator cap off and the coolant level about one inch below the cap seal. Let the engine idle until the thermostat opens (the top hose becomes warm) then rev the engine two or three times and get someone to check for bubbles in the coolant or even an immediate overflow. This could indicate a blown gasket and a radiator specialist could confirm this by testing the coolant. Another indication of a blown gasket can be white smoke from the exhaust or unexplained water loss. | ||
| John Kilkenny Prolific User Username: john_kilkenny Post Number: 115 Registered: 6-2005 |
Nigel, In my previous post when I referred to the radiator top tank this does not mean the header tank but the top tank of the radiator itself. The header tank will be cooler. | ||
| Nigel Ralph Experienced User Username: nigel_ralph Post Number: 23 Registered: 5-2005 |
Thanks for the info. Omar, the engine had a really good flush about two years ago (with a radiator flushing agent)and this was probably about a year after I had the radiator completely redone. When the boiling happened last year I took the radiator out and had it rodded and it was perfectly fine. Bill, the stocking sounds a good idea. They're cheap as chips these days and it should certainly let me know if 'detritis' is moving through the system. Am I right in guessing that the spurt of water when the engine starts is indication that the pump is working and that there is no more water left for the pump to blast out? or should a fair bit more water be pumped through? John, I shall try your check for a blown gasket. When you say radiator cap off do you mean the header tank filler cap or should I remove the radiator pressure relieve valve that is under the round plate on the header tank? Because of the work previously undertaken on the cooling system I am becoming more and more afraid that at best it will be a head gasket. | ||
| Jeff Young Experienced User Username: jeyjey Post Number: 37 Registered: 10-2010 |
I don't have much experience here, but a spurt of water sounds to me like you've got a air-lock somewhere, or a clog somewhere on the feed side (or radiator itself). Otherwise, the pump should empty about 1/2 of the cooling system. Jeff | ||
| John Kilkenny Prolific User Username: john_kilkenny Post Number: 116 Registered: 6-2005 |
Nigel, Any gas bubbles will get into the header tank via the bleed tube at the front of the tank, so I guess you will get a better view with the relief valve removed. | ||
| Nigel Ralph Experienced User Username: nigel_ralph Post Number: 24 Registered: 5-2005 |
Thanks John and Jeff. You make a good point Jeff. I certainly expected more water to be ejected. David or Bill mentioned somewhere (I think) a way of filling the cooling system using one of the hoses disconnected from the heater tap. Maybe I'll try that. It'll be slow but at least there should be no airlock. Sorry I was slow in getting back. Telstra had a problem and I was without communication at all for 3-4 days. I've also been working on my fairway's mower which had to have its heads and tappets redone, so haven't had a chance to work on the old girl. Back working full time has not helped at all, but at least it pays the bills. Probably get back to the old girl next weekend. | ||
| Nigel Ralph Experienced User Username: nigel_ralph Post Number: 25 Registered: 5-2005 |
Problem now solved (I think). I dropped all the coolent out and refilled with tank water. As I did this I had the front jacked up with the tyres about 100mm off the ground. I filled initially through the thermostat housing and when that became full I put thermostat back and finished off filling through the radiator. Ran the engine for about 15 mins, checked water level,(fine), then drove for about an hour. Absolutely no problems or gurgling at all! I suspect that Jeff's suggestion that there may have been an airlock may have been close to the mark. Lot of fuss and bother and driving an old cruiser for 3 months for something so simple. I suppose I should stop worrying so much and simply enjoy the experience. | ||
| Nigel Ralph Experienced User Username: nigel_ralph Post Number: 26 Registered: 5-2005 |
This is wierd! The problem has returned and I'm back driving the old tilly again. We had a lovely winter when everything dried out but the first stinking hot day in December and the gurgling returned. I dropped the coolent, refilled with water, and still she gurgled. Changed to the new pink coolent using the front wheels 4" off the deck method and still she gurgled. The only difference is that on an overcast day she doesn't gurgle. How could this be so? I am going to give another complete engine flush and need a bit of advice. So far I have simply removed the block drain plugs and the cock on the radiator and filled through the thermostat cover, sometimes directing the nozel down into the engine and sometimes along the horizontal passage. This time I thought I'd disconnect the radiator and see if I could force water through any of the other hoses such as those coming from the heater and running across the top of the engine, or even packing out the bottom radiator hose and clamping it around the garden hose. Has anyone got any suggestions? | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 844 Registered: 9-2004 |
After reading the threads to me it looks like the problem is a head gasket, head distorsion or cracked head. My first task would be to do a cylinder leak down test on all the cylinders to find and confirm the bank at fault. These engines run cool in the most hotest of days in the UK. Even with the long life antifreeze that I am still testing without any of the failings given by some. | ||
| Bill hafele Yet to post message Username: billy_uk Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2011 |
Just a thought, albeit not necessarily the solution. Fit a 'Kenlow' (electric) fan unit and ditch the ancient original - and noisy - fan asembly. I have already (SRH19580) done this for noise-supression and efficiency purpose and can recommend this option. | ||
| Nigel Ralph Experienced User Username: nigel_ralph Post Number: 27 Registered: 5-2005 |
Patrick, I don't want to know about head distortion or cracked head etc. Its just too expensive for someone who retired but had to go back to work due to a failed business venture. I have done the tests like leaving the filler cap off and running the engine. Nothing happens for ages then the coolent level rises and eventually overflows (I think this is when the thermostat opens). I've also done Bill's test to disconnect the radiator hose and point it away from the car and start the engine, and yes it squirts so I assume the pump is working. I have also done the test of going for a run then turning the engine off and watching the fan and yes it stops straight away. The weirdest thing is that the gurgling sounds seem to come from the engine near the water pump and not from the radiator. It seems consistent with an airlock but how in blazes do I ensure that there is no air in the system? and why does it only occur on hot sunny days? Everything on this car is SRH18295 and I'd love to keep it this way. The hoses and other bits and pieces have obviously been played with and I am a bit concerned about those coming from the heater. One goes higher than the header tank. I was wondering if perhaps when I have filled the car there is still air trapped in that high hose. Can I disconnect and fill through the high hose until coolent comes out the pipe it is joined to? David Gore once mentioned filling the coolent system using one of these hoses but I don't know which one. This could be a simple problem or a major one and I'd like to explore the simple options first. I think if it was a head distortion or something of that nature it would have been apparent winter and summer (we only have those two in Nth Qld) but it is only hot summer days that the problem is evident. I'd also like to really flush the engine out and was wondering how to do it most effectively. It was flushed really well when I first bought it and several times since but I thought that maybe disconnecting the radiator, opening the block drain plugs, and hosing through as many appertures as I can find eg heater hoses, thermostat, (are there any others?) might encourage any debris out. So far I have only flushed through the thermostat cover. Will I stuff anything by connecting the mains pressure hose to any of the heater pipes? Patrick, I appreciate your input. I believe though that if there was a head problem or something of that serious nature, then performance would have been compromised. The old girl still runs beautifully and it is only when I stop on a hot day do I hear the gurgling type sounds! I just don't want these to turn into a distorted head type of problem. Thanks Bill and if the problem can be sorted then an electric fan may be an option as the 'roar' of the existing fan is sometimes definitely very noticeable. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1064 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Nigel, I haven't touched a Shadow for 10 years and the incidence of "senior's moments" is becoming a concern - if my memory is reliable, my suggestion would have involved setting the heater full on and ensuring the water tap is fully open before removing the thermostat then disconnecting the lower heater hose and plugging the hose connector on the block before filling the cooling system using the lower hose until water overflowed continuously from the thermostat housing. Plug the lower heater hose temporarily and then fill the radiator until water overflows from the thermostat housing then reconnect the lower heater hose while the water is still running. Replace the thermostat, housing and top radiator hose, top up radiator, fit cap and start engine with heater on, allow to warm up until the top radiator hose is fully hot. Check for leaks then take car for 20/30 minute drive whilst watching temperature gauge [Senior's moment - used to the Corniche having a temperature gauge forgot this might not be the case with standard Shadows]. Stop car and listen for gurgling. If all appears well, drain half the water from the cooling system [measure with a suitable container] using the radiator drain tap and add the corresponding amount of antifreeze concentrate to give a 50:50 glycol/water mixture. George Shores made a reverse flushing gun from a ordinary engine degreasing gun which used tap water and compressed air injected through the engine thermostat housing with both radiator hoses disconnected. I built a copy after seeing him use it at one of our early Self-Help Group days and it proved very effective in removing accumulated crud from the block due to the turbulent flow of the air/water mixture - I would not subject the cooling system to mains pressure under any circumstances as the cooling system is designed for a working pressure of 15psi whereas mains pressure can be as high as 100psi or more. Turbulence not pressure is the best way to remove crud from the block - the radiator can also be reverse-flushed using the gun pressed against the lower outlet. My gun is in storage and I cannot get to it until next week - I will photograph it and post the photo here mid-to-late next week. The construction of the gun will be obvious from the photos. The gun needs a large compressor [2.4kW/3HP] to deliver the required amount of air for maximum turbulence. | ||
| Nigel Ralph Experienced User Username: nigel_ralph Post Number: 28 Registered: 5-2005 |
Thanks David. Could you explain why you recommend the lower hose from the heater rather than the upper one which is much easier to get at? I know the obvious answer is because Rolls Royce engineers made things as difficult as possible for mere mortals to work on, but the lower hose attaches to the pipe that comes out of the casing above the water pump, and that is the main area that the gurgling sound comes from. By plugging this pipe and filling through the hose there will be an area of air between the pump and the plugged pipe (unless of course water can still flow through the pump). I firmly believe that my engine is relatively clean as it has probably been flushed of coolent and refilled at least 5 times in the last 5 years. Your agitator sounds like a really good idea though. After looking at some of the photos in Tee One Topics it is obvious that good maintenance is important for longevity. I certainly take your point with regards to mains pressure but I was planning on leaving all apertures open so crud could flow out and pressure should not build up. Many thanks for your input. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1065 Registered: 4-2003 |
The idea of reverse filling is to eliminate any possible air locks due to inverted loops in the heater water circuit trapping air when the block is filled conventionally. There is less back pressure this way which allows the incoming water to push the entrapped air out of the circuit. I suspect this trapped air is the cause of your gurgling as it will naturally rise to the highest point when the forced circulation from the water pump stops. I suspect the trapped air remains permanently in the heater circuit for some reason [possibly a low flow rate] and is not carried over into the main cooling circuit where it eventually will find its way into the header tank. You might have seen the air release valves at high points on water supply pipelines from dams - their function is to bleed off the trapped air when the pipeline is filled with water from the source. Essentially they are a toilet inlet valve working in reverse where the float closes off a venting valve once all the trapped air is vented to atmosphere and the valve seals from the water pressure in the pipe. If it is necessary to drain the pipe for maintenance, the water flow is shut off and a drain valve opened causing the pressure in the pipe to decrease until the vent valves all along the pipe open allowing air into the pipe to expedite drainage. The information sheet on the following link includes examples of how air pockets form in water circuits: http://www.netafimusa.com/files/literature/agriculture/air-vents-check-valves-pressure-regulators/A047A-Air-Vent-Install-Guide.pdf I suspect the third illustration of a trapped air pocket at the bottom of page 1 is what is happening in your car; there is enough water flow in the hose for the heater to appear to be working normally but not enough flow to push the entrapped air out into the main cooling circuit. | ||
| Michael Hicks Experienced User Username: bentleyman22 Post Number: 20 Registered: 12-2011 |
get it checked for Head Gasket as there common in the UK if the rad is good and the Thermostat is opening then get the heads of and have them checked use RR&B parts only | ||
| Stefan Morley Grand Master Username: myupctoys Post Number: 338 Registered: 7-2009 |
Hi Guys, I've seen the symptom once before in a Supra. All that issue was someone installed the thermostat with the "joggle valve" upside down. Used to make the sorts of noises talked about in this thread. Assume the air bubbles could never properly escape through the joggle valve. Spun it around and never had an issue again. Worth a thought. Stefan | ||
| Stefan Morley Grand Master Username: myupctoys Post Number: 339 Registered: 7-2009 |
David, I remember XF falcons used to have "air release valves at high points on water supply pipelines from dams". Little valve you undid to release the final bit of air. Worked well, not so sure about the rest of the design though. Stefan | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 846 Registered: 9-2004 |
Nigel, sorry to give you bad news. When you now say " the 'roar' of the existing fan is sometimes definitely very noticeable." This must confirm that the radiator is doing its job releasing the heat with the water pump and viscos fan doing its job. To run the vehicle as it is could cause extensive damage,pulled pistons sunk liners heat and block probs to say the least. I rarely hear the use of the fan, only in traffic jams on a realy hot day. Running LPG with towing and still cool running. Did you notice if any of the safty lead has gone out of the thermostat? | ||
| Michael Hicks Experienced User Username: bentleyman22 Post Number: 21 Registered: 12-2011 |
there is a Brand New Blackpool Engine for sale over hear 5K drop strait in your car | ||
| Nigel Ralph Experienced User Username: nigel_ralph Post Number: 29 Registered: 5-2005 |
Thanks Guys I've been offline for a week or so with work so haven't been able to do a thing. Thanks for your explanation David. It seems to fit the pattern much better than Patricks. Hopefully I shall drain and refill again this weekend. Michael, if I had the wherewithall I'd probably invest in that engine. Unfortunately I haven't so I will continue with ostrich syndrome and hope. Many thanks for you assistance. I do believe and hope that David's on the right track. His explanation fits the pattern best. I will let you know the results. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1071 Registered: 4-2003 |
Nigel, I hope so too....... | ||
| Randy Roberson Experienced User Username: wascator Post Number: 35 Registered: 5-2009 |
My Car made some boiling gurgling sounds after shutdown when I first got Her; has not done so for some time now. I attributed it to possible air lock. I know my radiator and fan clutch are good. My heater core was bypassed due to having a leak; I have since repaired it.I don't know if this had anything to do with the situation. I suggest you measure when you replace coolant, to see if the amount you install seems reasonably close to the capacity. If you can't get it all in, either it did not completely drain, or it is air locked somewhere In There. I also tend to overreact to any noise or unusual situation; I look at it as being financial self-preservation and completely reasonable under the circumstances. |
