| Author | Message | |||
     Dave D. Unregistered guest Posted From: 65.177.168.131 |
I'm working on a '68 Silver Shadow, SRX2476, LH drive, that is missing the steering box and pump. Used steering boxes are quite pricey as are pumps and couplers. Has anyone converted these to another steering box from say a Chevy or other large vehicle? I'm a toolmaker and former ASE auto mechanic so I'm not afraid of a complicated conversion. | |||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 194 Registered: 4-2003 |
It will depend on whether the car was fitted with the Hobourn Eaton or GM Saginaw power steering pump - the same steering box was fitted to all cars except that a higher ratio box was fitted from standard car serial no 4315 and coachbuilt car 5023. I would fit the Saginaw unit and later steering box if you can obtain these from a parts dismantler at a reasonable price - I am unable to advise if the box is a standard GM product and trust someone with this information can enlighten me. I would suggest trying the UK dismantlers for these items given the number of cars that are scrapped there due to body corrosion - my US counterparts advise US dismantlers are skilled at setting extortionate prices. | |||
| bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 195.93.33.11 |
Be very careful. The steering box is part of the steering and suspension geometry and it absolutely crucial that the parts are correct and fitted in the right place. If say the pitman arm is say 3mm to short and the centre it turns round is 3mm to far back. or too high ---low or what ever. This would mean that as the car turns the turns to toe in will be wrong. Try flying spares UK website. They sell used stuff and accept surcharges for recon stuff were old units are not available. They know which parts to fit. Dave is 100% right about USA prices. Some of the prices are 5 times the UK price. | |||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 111 Registered: 4-2003 |
For a LHD steering box, Brabo in the Netherland is more likely a good source as not many LHD cars are broken up in the UK. However, Introcar offer them in LHD for £350 plus a surcharge for no exchange. Be sure to have a good Pitman arm as they tend to break at the splines, fortunately usually when parking. Maybe have it X-Rayed and magnafluxed to check for cracks to be reasonably certain. Ours broke doing a U-Turn: it just kept on turning ! I think the new one cost us around US$400. For years, R-R gave them away free to avoid class action. Why not find out what happened to the original ? It is probably lying in the corner of some workshop needing new seals. A previous owner must know its whereabouts. An Dave, the columns differ over the years too, and there were two ratio changes, the first at standard chassis 6429 and again at 11216. | |||
| erg Unregistered guest Posted From: 213.122.27.247 |
a pitman arm has no effect on steering geometry whatsoever this is controled by the componets after the arm.it's length can dictate how many turns it takes lock to lock,how easy or hard the steering is, space available for the box to be in etc. | |||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 112 Registered: 4-2003 |
Sorry, erg, but the positioning, shape and length of the Pitman arm have everything to do with the steering geometry. It must be symmetrical with the idler arm as a minimum. Otherwise, the steering will be all over the place except at the point of alignment. See the attached diagram to believe what I say.
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| John Dare Unregistered guest Posted From: 144.138.194.137 |
Good to see that Dave D, post of Feb.6th. is (hopefully) being steered in the "right" direction and all will be well as long as no corners are cut. | |||
| erg Unregistered guest Posted From: 81.131.210.139 |
what program was used to create steering .doc file extension is not a known format to windows,linux or the online source of filext cannot comment on this until i have seen the doc,maybe at cross purposes of calling certain susp.componets and steering componets different names | |||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 116 Registered: 4-2003 |
Try this. The last documement was in good old Microsoft Word.  | |||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 195.93.33.11 |
Any incorrectly dimensioned drag link, pitman arm or track rod will also most likely cause as the suspension goes up and down the wheels to steer off course.----- Bump steer. The ackermann princple is quite simple but does require accuracy but add suspension movement and things get very complicated then add inclined unequal lenght wish bones and we in to 3D trigonometry . Not only do the wheels move up they move back and the steering linkage corrects the tracking. The parts must be the right ones. Anything will work but it will always wander and scrub tyres. Incidently when the Shadow rolls on fast corners the rear wheel angle to direction changes and helps turn the car. Inclined semi trailing rear arms. Plus both ends go negative camber on the outside of the turn so that the track spreads and the contact patch on the road remains square with the road----- It was this bit that RR was careful with when the Radial debate started. As it happens it all worked fine. Later cars were changed however to take more advantage of the Radials. Which is also why you need the right parts for that vin no. The rear suspension of the Shadow has been copied by many makers---- BMW, Truimph , Ford. It easy better than the Jag equilavent For years Mercedes had an inferior system at the rear which when pushed would let go big time. The Shadow Suspension is still bang up to date-- even the steering box type. Which has advantages over the rack. I have spent hours on steering systems and one bent part which is not noticed will muck it up let alone the wrong lenght one. | |||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 195.93.33.11 |
Forgot---- my car SRH 17768 floats down the road over bumps and lumps and the steering never twitches ---- Spot on. My Merc Van is like a bucking bronco on the same road at less speed. And the P309 bounces from one bump to the other with the steering wheel twitching like mad. Also the local council decided that the road was too rough so they smoothed it out then the council decided that the traffic was now going too fast so they dug it up again and put in speed humps. It cost £100,000 plus-- the pot holes were cheaper. | |||
| plockyer Unregistered guest Posted From: 81.135.92.151 |
Shaddow 1 Shaddow 2 The steering box advantages over a rack i find it hard to believe that there are any, tell me more. I bought a Merc SLK & was most surprised to find that it still had a steering box as all mercs still do!!!!! | |||
| erg Unregistered guest Posted From: 213.122.33.162 |
sorry but did not realise that rolls used this system as your diagram of left hand drive setup clearly shows.with this if you want to improve the driving experience you do have to shorten the drop arm (pitman arm,pendulum arm)and the idler arm as well,if the steering cannot be set to the correct steering geometry then you have to remove a part of the centre seion as well.we have access to pitman arms for pajeros fords and gm vehicles that are pre drilled to give various lengths from the box,this does save a lot of time from cutting and welding the original.if done correctly it will improve the somewhat vague steering feel you tend to get with this type of steering setup and also to reduce the amount of turning you have to do to get the car to respond,more feedback.if you check the file ext.in the above you will see it is.unk which nothing seems to recognise over here is word different there? | |||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 117 Registered: 4-2003 |
The last steering boxes in Shadows were excellent and super reliable, apart from that fragile Pitman arm. It's a performance preference and reliability matter between rack-and-pinion and steering boxes. Australian and English public critics always go for the sharpness of a R&P setup. The steering racks on SSII and later cars are, strictly in in my opinion, of a far superior performance, but leak traumatically when only relatively new. My '87 Turbo R has had 5 new steering racks because of leaks. Our '72 T-Series never has had any steering box repairs in 330,000km, and I have repaired the steering box in my 720,000 km '54 R-Type only once, due to damage (hit a kerb and split the roller). The performance differential is a matter of taste. Germans traditionally like dead steering, so a recirculating ball steering box has generally been preferred. I had a 300E Mercedes for some time, and found the steering appallingly dead after my Turbo R. Even with rack and pinion steering, my little BMW 3-series is set up to be decidedly dead at straight ahead: Autobahn sneeze factor. The English like the sharpness of a rack and pinion setup and exploit its abilities more than any other manufacturers. | |||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 118 Registered: 4-2003 |
the file shows up on my screen as STEERING.DOC and is a straightforward Microsoft Word file in Windows Millennium ME, the same as in the US. Try starting it in MS Word and let me know if it is OK. To make the steering sharper, more responsive, with less turns lock-to-lock and with more feel, the idler and Pitman arm would both need to be identically lengthened (not shortened), but there would be bump-steer and other side effects, whether a noticeable or minimal improvement or worsening I don't know. | |||
| plockyer Unregistered guest Posted From: 81.131.187.150 |
My experience with the racks leaking has been caused dynamic imbalance on the wheels over a long period of time. Have also found disc run-out a cause's for rack probs. I have not had any leaks so far but mine is a low milage car. | |||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 119 Registered: 4-2003 |
Dynamic balance causing steering rack leakage: a very interesting and encouraging suggestion. My Turbo R has covered 230,000 km, but the mileage has never seemed to be a factor in steering rack life, just age (unlike everything else which actually seems to benefit from a greater distance travelled). With Avon 255.65x15s I could rarely get them balanced. Now, with new wheels and 255.55x17 Michelins there is absolutely no vibration. Maybe I can hope the my new steering rack will last somewhat longer. Thanks. | |||
| erg Unregistered guest Posted From: 213.122.33.162 |
when you jack a vehicle you have to shorten most pitman arms as they tend to foul the heavier road springs and poss. body parts,to counter this you fit a smaller steering wheel,having power steering is necessary as this is obviously not practical on a vehicle that does not have it. right click on the steering doc above to see it's file ass.to me it comes back as .unk | |||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 198 Registered: 4-2003 |
There is a gremlin in the works - for some reason the file is showing an extension .unk when it is opened. The simple solution to this is to left-click on the document icon, select "save" and change the file name extension from .unk to .doc before saving. You can then open the file with Word or Wordpad. | |||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 195.93.33.11 |
In the UK if any steering part has altered form standard the MOT tester will check to see how it has been done. Any welding or heat will mean failure. Even straigtening a part warrants a failure. This is because bits like pitmans are heat treated. I suspect that the heat treatment process of the Batch of pitmans that sheared splines was faulty. Steering boxes are very robust. Mine one is 30 years old. Wheel balance does damage racks. Due to the mechanical closeness of the ram and inferior steering damping. Also I think the SS2 rack suffers from heat due to its position. GM do a PAS fluid that suffers heat better. I have seen lots of leaking power racks RR is not alone. On any vehicle as the suspension moves the distance between the various parts must change. The lenght of the pitman is designed so that this changes are kept to a minimum. Or the changes are used to enhance the geometry. Any alterations will muck this up. Designers spend ages getting it just right. With beam axles and cart springs you can get away with more. But not independant front suspension. GM spent a lot of money is the 1920s and 30s working all this out.-- The engineer was Maurice Olley | |||
| John Dare Unregistered guest Posted From: 144.138.194.36 |
I have seen many pitman arms broken in the same place i.e at the "eye" splined end BUT have not heard of this problem with L.H.D Steering boxed cars having spoken with many repairers in the USA. I am confounded by this anomaly since there is no logical explanation. In desperation I even asked a world expert (Southern hemisphere) but he didnt know either. Unless someone in L.H.D markets has service data to contradict my observations I would like to know, just for the record, WHY is it SO?. | |||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 120 Registered: 4-2003 |
David G: I see what you mean. I opened the file, and noticed it is steering.unk once opened. It opened (without any saving or other action) with a single left click under Internet Explorer. The picture is the same as the graphic I posted, but the resolution is a bit better. If the computer asks for an application to open the file, try assigning Internet Explorer or Word. I'll learn. Thanks, Richard. PS: I am fascinated that broken Pitman arms may be limited to RHD Shadows, and the failures are still so widespread that it seems not to be a component batch problem. I have heard of dozens of cases, but quite correct: never a LHD yet come to think of it. Curious. Fortunately and remarkably, I have not heard of a crash resulting from this sudden total loss of steering, presumably as they occur mainly when reverse parking. Perhaps parking in the USA is easier, but definitely not in LHD Europe, so an explanation beats me. | |||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 195.93.33.11 |
Are these failures year related and do the replacement arms fail. I thought pitman failure was done and dusted years ago. Very strange maybe it's sun spots. The pit arm would most likely fail when parking esp if a kerb is envolved. The big nut in the middle may have been loose. Maybe RHD cars go around roundabouts clockwise which causes the nut to work loose and the splines to fret. Or I was right first time ---sun spots. Is the LHD pitman different in someway. I use a special chemical locking compound on splines made by Locktite for splines. I know of a Land Rover whose pitman arm fell off at speed and the car rolled. And a Truimph that drop a track rod end and the driver was killed. In all the other cases of steering failure I have heard the driver and car escaped with out to much damage if any. Very lucky. But luck can change. | |||
| Bill Coburn Grand Master Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 105 Registered: 4-2003 |
All this is a bit esoteric for this old bloke but one area I am curious about with the old boxes was whether you can sleeve the main cylinder. Apparently (as I understand it) the sludge generated in the box settles to the bottom and works like grinding paste until the piston will not seal against the'elliptical' shape. I have suggested sleeving and been howled down but as the replacement casting is up with the Kohinoor Diamond price wise I would like some more informed opinion. As to the sludge, noting that there is (to my knowledge)no scheduled oil change for the steering system I have been changing the oil flushing the whole thing and fitting an in-line filter. I was also inspired with the memory of a filter in the reservoir of the Clouds! It is also a good time to change the flexible lines around the cooler and on the return line. Lastly Bob UK (fascinated by the surname)what is the GM PAS fluid you recommend. These thing are so valuable I am inclined to the very best if I know what to use? | |||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 195.93.35.153 |
Bob UK the UK means england . Bob is a common name --my surname is Reddington. MY Range Rover had a filter in the reservoir. I see no reason why a filter could not be fitted to the return pipe to the resevoir may be a weir device and magnet as well. A remote engine oil filter like used on Rally cars would be ideal. Also extra capacity helps. Sleeving components is a standard engineering fix that works well because it allows a different material to be used that may be better for the application. Providing of course that there is enough "meat" left I would not be surprised if recon boxes had this fix. I used to bore out layshaft clusters and sleeve them. These were actually better than new because the sleeve was hardened instead of case hardened. One nice quiet gearbox with a slick action. The other choice was buy new gear sets which made an uneconomic repair. In components with are size critcal such as spool valves I would say that sleeves is best incorparated in the design so that the expensive bits don't wear out ----- Ford Cylinder heads which use the head as the guide-- saves money in manuafacture but causes extra expense to save the head. The GM pas fuild was used in ASTRA diesels ( police cars )because the turbo was close to the rack and cooked it. I do not know the name of the oil. GM gave us a 45 gallon drum of the stuff and told us to use this instead. The racks and pumps lasted better--- we had a few pumps shear the drive shaft. may be a heat shield would work. It would be interesting to see the oil in a failed RR rack. The astra oil went brown like a burnt up auto box and smelt metalicaly. My car has a pas cooler behind the rad shell. I change fluid evey 2 years -- I use the same as the auto box.-- Castrol. | |||
| Bill Coburn Grand Master Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 106 Registered: 4-2003 |
Bob Many thanks. A rank amateur such as myself would not have that experience. Fortunately I have had little trouble with power steering. Leaking hoses to the oil cooler on Shadows and leaking racks mainly on Spirits. One case I had it seemed rack conditioner had been inserted to stop leaking which may have worked for a while but then came the deluge! I send racks to a specialist in Sydney who castigated me for the use of conditioners until I pointed out that it was used long before I came on the scene. The stuff had worked so well on the pinion seal that it had actually scored the shaft where the seal ran. This fortunately was cleared up with a little dressing. What he recommended then was replacement of all 'rubber' components lest they had been damaged. This involved an overhaul of the pump, replacement of the high pressure hose and the low pressure return hoses. I mention all this since it was a fairly expensive exercise seemingly brought about by the use of these conditioners. | |||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 195.93.48.167 |
Yes I know ----the seals expand and degrade over time. Fortunately you got away with it, if the stuff had not been in there then the rack would have to have been rebuilt anyway. and then you might as well check the rest out and before you know same price. There are not so many seals in the rack and pump. I never fully understood the problems associated with racks because hydraulisc are used in far worse conditions. I cannot see why they design them so badly. Motor bike front forks have the same problem. some trucks use a ram across the drag link to the chassis which much better and I used to change them in 1 hour and it does not effect the steering set up. the truck can still be driven --- hard work though no PAS. I have had them go wrong on the road I used to disconect the drag link end tie in up out of the way and drive the truck back to the works . Some Ford Mustangs were similar. I done one 20 odd years ago. I fitted a seal kit it took under an hour and I think the seal kit was a tenner or so. Spot on. Incidently any thing with oil in it leaks Some you worry some you don't. For any seal to work and last it must have lub and they all leak ----- other wise my car would not use a very slight amount of PAS oil. I have a faint smear of red stuff on the pitman arm nut. It takes a month to appear. Been like that for 14 years. Maybe was like it new. That leak I don't worry about. The leak is accepted and expected by MOT testers. anything more than a smear and he will fail. I worry when drops appear on floor.I have a habit of checking out where I have parked as I drive off. I am almost paranoid about leaks because I have seen so much stuff damaged by a minor leak that went un-noticed until---- Open wallet transplant to parts man. | |||
| Dave Dibble Yet to post message Username: dave_d Post Number: 1 Registered: 2-2004 |
Thanks for all the responce. I will do a bit of shopping for the correct box. We will try to contact the last owner. I've been told he is incapacitated by alzheimers, so who know what we'll find out. Thanks again to all! | |||
| Bill Coburn Grand Master Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 113 Registered: 4-2003 |
Dave I sypathise I have a Sour with the seat motor and cables removed on the passenger's side. The owner is dead. I am kooking for a good medium!! Bob UK I asked my PS man the same question about what was wrong with the racks. He said the seal design and technology was 30 years old and became incoherant I have fortuitously the latest nineties box in the Spur - beautiful. | |||
| Bob Uk Unregistered guest Posted From: 195.93.33.11 |
manufactures only redesign when The have to. They are more interested in cup holders than leaking racks. The cup holder on my PC retracted automatically and split tea over the desk the other day. Because the owner is dead and the car is a late model I would ask at the garage he used. They may know, they may even have it lying under the bench. With the guy with oldtimers I would ask the people that care for him if they have any idea, and if it is a care home buy them something nice. I remember an XJ6 that was leaking bad past the control valve and the steering would go hard over when the engine was started and even tugged on the starter motor. I took it apart out of interest to find bit of grit had held the control valve open to one side. I fitted an exchange rack---- cheaper. |
