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Pete Burgess
Yet to post message
Username: pburgess
Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, 13 January, 2004 - 12:37 pm: |    |
Months ago after driving around for less than an hour in my normal sedate manner, I had a major adrenalin rush when the brake pedal hit the floor as I approached a red light. When I touched it again it was fine. It was about time for the annual fluid change so the master cylinder was changed and RR363 totally flushed and renewed throughout.
A few weeks later (I regularly drive the car once a week for about an hour) same again. I now make a habit of pushing the pedal hard before I set off thinking perhaps the master cylinder rubber needs to know not to let the fluid pass, as I am very light footed on the accelerator and brakes. I have since had the rear springs replaced and again a total RR363 flush whilst the system was being tampered with. The problem has occurred since although every time I touch the brake now I half expect it to be soft and simply let the pedal up again, before it goes anywhere near the floor, to give me normal pressure.
Recently a child ran across the road and the car stopped very well indeed, but I need to know it will next time.
} |
David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore
Post Number: 169
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, 13 January, 2004 - 11:11 pm: | |
Peter,
To be able to comment further; we need the chassis number of your car so we know which braking system we need to talk about. |
Bill Coburn
Prolific User
Username: bill_coburn
Post Number: 97
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, 14 January, 2004 - 11:01 am: | |
Pete let me jump in but not eclipse any advice from David simply because I have some very definite ideas on the old master cylinder. Assuming you really do mean the master cylinder (no offence meant)this as you may know was pinched from the early Morris Minor and was put there almost solely to give the pedal 'feel'. When Citroen first installed their new braking system in the Goddess, the brake 'pedal' resembled a large dipper switch which was perfectly satisfactory but they could not convince drivers that that little thing could possibly stop the car. Seems that 50 years of laying into a decent long travel pedal was basic to all drivers! And so they brought in the pedal. All quite unnecessary since all that is required is to open a valve(s) and let the accumulator pressured brake fluid rush up to the calipers and clamp down on the rotors. These valves are not even spring loaded! The old brake shoe and drum system firstly gave you a nice set of strong springs to push against and finally when the shoes hit the drums you could literally stand on the pedal and note that it was still some inches from the floor. It was then, a fairly good indicator of wear on the brake linings particularly with the old servo systems as well as the happy indicator of the handbrake coming further and further out as the linigns wore down. When you started knee capping yourself on the hand brake lever it was time to screw the brake adjusters up a few more clicks. But the Citroen experience some 15 years prior to the advent of the Shadow which pinched the sytem (albeit under licence) obviously alerted the RR designers who decided to put a small master cylinder into the brake pedal mechanism to provide 'feel'. To improve the feel they piped the output from this little cylinder into one of the sets of pistons on the back wheels. Though these were a smaller diameter they were still quite sizeable compared with for instance the little wheel cylinders on the old 'Minor'. But properly set up , give feel to the brake pedal they did. In the mid seventies they gave this away and employed a metal cone pushing into a conical holed lump of rubber - a device they used until the end. But back to the master cylinder idea, the spin merchants got onto this as a great seller in the safety department and promoted the 'triplicated' braking system. That is the two accumulator setups and the master cylinder. Now twice I have actually driven an early shadow which had no brakes other than the 'master cylinder' and I can tell you that sticking your boot out the door would probably be more effective. It was just nonsensical spin and I think they scotched that promotion early in the piece. Digressing again, there was a humorous side story to the whole design since the first and highly closetted 'recall' Rolls had on the Shadow was to fit a retaining plate on part of the rat trap pedal linkage since the fundamental pin between the pedal and whole 'triplicated' system could fall out!!!!!
As you are stuck with the little master cylinder Pete the problem you have is bleeding. I assume your work is done my a mechanic who has his apprentice pump up the pedal in the conventional way and then opens the appropriate bleed screw. The problem is that the displacement of the master cylinder is so small and the volume of the pipe to the rear is so comparitively large, hardly a dribble occurs at the nipple end. Some people elevate the car to an impossible angle and effectively let the air bubbles in the line flow to the top as in any vessel. Apart from the danger of putting the car at such an attitude there is still no guarantee you will get all the air out. I have found that the best method is to vacuum bleed the line in otherwords suck the fluid out and you will finish up with a good solid pedal. Your experience would appear to be air in the line which compresses on the second pedal stroke and you have 'feel' again. But at no stage I imagine do you not have brakes?! |
Pete Burgess
New User
Username: pburgess
Post Number: 2
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, 14 January, 2004 - 01:43 pm: | |
Firstly the details. 1972. SRH13483. May I now suggest that when starting a thread that there is a prompt to add the car chassis # or whatever if applicable to the discussion.
Does the pedal actually hit the floor, I’m not sure as it has only happened when driving and I haven’t had the presence of mind to savour the moment as I just pump by instinct. I do know that I feel no resistance while the pedal plunges and any braking force is not apparent although I can't swear there is none.
99% of the time the pedal is firm and brakes are good.
|
Bill Coburn
Prolific User
Username: bill_coburn
Post Number: 98
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, 14 January, 2004 - 06:19 pm: | |
Thank you for your observation. Chassis numbers do help. Master cylinders were used to about 1975 but whatever, you did refer to it (them)and I do not resile from the above advice. Hopefully you found it of some interest/help! |
David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore
Post Number: 170
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, 14 January, 2004 - 09:07 pm: | |
Hi Peter & Bill,
Bill's information is spot-on especially the advice about vacuum bleeding the low-pressure circuit however I add some further comments:
To ensure your high-pressure circuits are working, take your car to a large open car park well away from other cars and do the hardest possible emergency stop from 10/15Km/hr while a capable assistant watches the front wheels - they should lock up if one or both of the high pressure circuits are functioning even if the pedal goes right to the floor as there is no feedback from the high-pressure valves. Repeat the exercise while your assistant watches the rear wheels and they should also lock up if the rear high pressure circuit is functioning. HOWEVER, there is one exception to this and that is it is very easy to dislodge the rubber seat in the deceleration pressure limiting valve located on top of the master cylinder when bleeding the system and this can cause the rear brakes to be very difficult or impossible to bleed as well as rendering the rear brakes inoperative.
I have driven my Corniche with the high pressure circuits inoperative and whilst the braking performance was substantially diminished, the low pressure circuit operating the rear brakes was still capable of bringing the car to rest in what I considered to be a reasonable distance given the weight and speed of the car - it was easy to determine that the normal braking efficiency was not available and suitable evasive techniques employed to minimise collateral damage to others!! [after all we all drive at speeds which allow us to stop safely in the open space visible in front of the car at all times]. |
Pete Burgess
New User
Username: pburgess
Post Number: 3
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, 15 January, 2004 - 12:18 pm: | |
Thank you both very much and interesting too. I'm actually looking forward to the pedal going soft again to see what happens on full travel. I will try the emergency stop this weekend and get the kids to video so I can see for myself. |
Robert Chapman
Frequent User
Username: shadow
Post Number: 13
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, 18 January, 2004 - 09:29 pm: | |
Forgive my suspicious mind but something doesnt sound quite right here.
David you said the pedal went straight to the floor before the fluid was changed and master cylinder fitted.(what condition was the old m/cylinder in,presumably this was a simple case of m/cylinder failure).
After this work had been performed and springs fitted you said "99%of the time the pedal feels FIRM and the brakes are good".This does not sound like the description of a system with air still in it,air is always compressable and therefore the pedal should always feel spongy.If re-bleeding does not cure the problem then I think you may have a faulty new m/cylinder.A simple test is to depressurise the high pressure system and then clamp off both low pressure hoses to rear calipers,put very slight foot pressure(just the weight of your foot) on the pedal(engine not running) and see if pedal can be made to slowly creep down. |
David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore
Post Number: 171
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, 18 January, 2004 - 10:57 pm: | |
Hi Robert,
Your reference to me should be to Peter but will not bother to change it - another reason for the low-pressure cylinder not giving pedal feel could be the piston seals being installed back-to front. In this situation, there will be no back pressure on the forward or return stroke and the first indication will be loss of fluid from the reservoir followed by an ever-increasing puddle of fluid under the "rat trap" when the car is parked in the garage.
The lack of feel may not be picked up by an experienced light braking driver until heavy braking is required and the pedal then goes straight to the floor whereas the pedal movement for light braking has been done intuitively by this driver rather than by conscious evaluation of the pedal back-pressure.
Whilst an experienced service person would be most unlikely to install seals back-to-front; a trainee mechanic or mechanic pre-occupied with other matters could very easily reverse the seals and not check for proper installation before rebuilding the cylinder. |
Robert Chapman
Frequent User
Username: shadow
Post Number: 14
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, 19 January, 2004 - 10:26 pm: | |
Hi David,
I apologise I did not mean to refer to you. I was of course quoting from Peters original post sorry about that.
However I read your suspicions about what might be the cause of this fault.In all honesty I found it hard to understand how anyone could possibly put the piston seal in back to front and I agree with you that
the result would be a puddle of fluid on the floor(if you could generate enough pressure to bleed the system).My curiosity got the better of me so during the day I assembled a m/cylinder with the piston seal the wrong way around(seal lip facing outwards) and fitted it to the test bench useing a 0-800psi gauge.I applied pressure to the pedal and as soon as the piston moved foreward and the end seal blocked off the inlet port fluid squirted out of the rear of the cylinder past the piston (I could not even generate enough pressure to bleed the gauge).This cylinder with 50lbs foot pressure applied through shadow pedal mechanical step up ratio will normally record in excess of 700psi.Peter was this a new m/cylinder or the old one overhauld? |
Pete Burgess
New User
Username: pburgess
Post Number: 4
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, 21 January, 2004 - 08:45 am: | |
Took the car for a hard stop as suggested. Did this twice and the wheels did not lock although the car stopped well, pedal firm as is mostly normal. I have booked a rolling road session for a brake test this Friday and perhaps I can quantify the braking efficiency.
There is a weep from the master cylinder area which has only appeared in the last few days and looks to be coming from where the horizontal pipe joins the MC at the end of the stack of threads. It seems tight but I didn’t want to scrunch it. Checking my receipt the MC was reconditioned not replaced.
Went for another run for about 20 minutes and the pedal was firm and all well, but just before home the pedal went limp – great. I didn’t let it up and when it reached the floor and I pushed the brakes did work, did this three times (I was going down hill) with the pedal down and as soon as it came up it was firm again. While the pedal was down I had 2 warnings, ‘Partial Brake Failure’ & ‘Master Cylinder’.
|
David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore
Post Number: 172
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, 21 January, 2004 - 09:20 am: | |
Hi Peter,
Subject to Robert's ideas as well, I suspect you might have a pinched/damaged seal on the master cylinder piston - this might be due to a defective seal in the overhaul kit or the seal being damaged during re-assembly.
If this is the case, you should return the car to the repairer for the problem to be fixed under their repair warranty. |
Greg Churm
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 144.137.104.241
| | Posted on Thursday, 22 January, 2004 - 10:08 pm: | |
I do enjoy this forum. Having been at the joint Citroen RR day and examined the Rat Trap brake valve carefully I stand in awe at the RR engineers. How could they so completely and comprehensively stuffed up a perfectly good braking system. From what I could see the leverage fulcrum is the master cylinder so the whole system is dependent on the health of this component. Doesn't matter if you have duplicated high pressure systems and duplicated braking systems, if this component fails you are history. Seems they saw the light in 1975.
In Citroens all they have done is fit ever larger rubber buttons on the front of the brake valve to make it feel more 'normal', whatever that is.
I hope the problem gets sorted for you Pete without too much pain
Greg Churm |
Bob UK
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 195.93.33.11
| | Posted on Friday, 23 January, 2004 - 05:41 am: | |
Greg and others.
If you examine the rat trap you will notice two prongs that hang down form the master cylinder linkage.
If the master fails the prongs should hit a large diameter spacer that keeps the rat frame apart at the bottom.
I have seen a few Shadows where this spacer has been replaced with a small dia spacer.
I take this spacer out and refit after bleeding so the master gets full travel.
The pressure in the high pressure system holds the brake valves shut so that you do get a small bit of feel via the pedal.
The master cylinder system contributes 16% of the braking effort so does the hand brake --- 32% total available ---
One of the reason RR deleted the master bit in 1976 is because the Shadow was due for replacement and RR were strapped for cash so they used the Shadow to develop the braking system for the Spirit.
The Spirit has LHM not DOT so using the master on the Spirit was not an option because it would mean Girling making a special special master cylinder to work on LHM ( some CIT 2CVs have master with LHM )
So RR had to make sure that the system with out a master was going to be OK with the owners.
RR and Citreon already knew that the later system was OK. But they also knew that RR owners are a fickle bunch.
Early Shadows can be changed to LHM by feeding the master with DOT from a separate tank. and changing all the rubber bits in the rest.
However There is no point because the DOT system works fine and all this talk about the likely hood of total brake failure is unjustified and providing the system is maintained correctly it will run for years. Master and all.
The Morris Minor although is had smaller wheel cylinders it was drum braked and drum brake require far less pressure to work than disks because drum brakes have a self servo action called wrapping.
This is why the Cloud does not have power brakes only gear box assisted brakes.
I think the Shadow would have been maybe just as good with drums at the rear .
The hand brake would be much better and the master would give much more braking effort and feel.
Problem with that is that drums are treated by the car buying public as a down grade-- not true.
I can judge the rear drum brake on my Motor Bike ( Honda VT 500 )to the point of lock up where as rear disk I can't--- so bike manufacters make the rear disk less effective so save all legal stuff
The master on a Shadow does lie at an akward angle in the rat trap. The angle traps an air bubble by the outlet in a corner.
When bleeding jack the rear of the car high and the front low.
With out front wheels on
IF the master keeps going to the floor then it must be faulty.
To check a master screw a blled nipple into the master out let ( 3/8 UNF )
A good master will bled on first stroke and lock solid with no creep.
To check for creep press the pedal hard then back off a bit until you are almost no pressure then press very gently to see if the seals are holding.
I have had what seemed a good master creep all the way to the floor by pushing and releasing gently. Differcult to explian.
Any doubt fit a new master. Even new masters can be faulty ---rare--- but it does happen--- dodgy storage is the usual reason.
For years I thought that DOT was inferior to LHM
This is not altogther true. LHM does not absorb water the water lies in pockets ready to turn to steams as soon as the temp gets to 100 celius and as soon as the brakes are released the steam can then expand and blow fuild back to the tank so that if you go back on the brakes quickly after the pressure will have to compress the steam again before the calipers move the pistons.
This does not happen with DOT at such low temps.
Which means you have to change LHM as often as DOT.
The problems with the Shadow seem to start with the ride height system.
The Spirit works different and I reckon that is the reason that the LHM system is better.
Citroens have always sat on the hydraulics so that the ride hieght is in constant use.
Some older Cit are on LHS which is DOT similar to RR363 if not the same.
The guys that own DS Goddeses on LHS don't seem to get problems.
Strangly I had a CX ( LHM ) and the car gave heaps of hyd trouble. A week with out a leak was a novelty. I gave up and run the system on diesel and engine oil till the engine went and I scrapped it. Nice car when right. But never again.
The Shadow is much better, and far less complicated.
|
Pete Burgess
New User
Username: pburgess
Post Number: 5
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, 23 January, 2004 - 08:31 pm: | |
Had the car on the rolling road today and the chap who was more worried about scrubbing the white wall tyres than anything else, stated that the brakes were the best he had ever tested in his many years, except for a recent new Mercedes. That gives me some confidence. Many thanks to you all for your input it's very interesting. |
Greg Churm
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 144.137.95.218
| | Posted on Friday, 23 January, 2004 - 09:08 pm: | |
HI Bob
thanks for the clarification and my apologies for shooting from the hip. Of interest is how both manufacturers deal with the problem of braking after a catastrophic failure. The later Shadows are at the same level as most Citroens. After failure you have one accumulator left which on a Cit gives about 70 brake applications. How many would the later Shadow give; I would assume about the same as there are no suspension or steering demands made on the system. Citroen make sure these demands do not jepardise the fail safe system by fitting a Priority Valve that isolates all but the brake circuit in the advent of a failure.
I cannot agree though with the staement that a Shadow is less complicated than a CX. I drive one of these and have had only one hydraulic failure when the suction line to the pump split. In that case everything worked as expected with the car feeling decidedly wooly as assistance drained from the steering and suspension but the brakes continued to work although they were a biot sick by the time I got the car to a safe place to park. Take a look at the braking system; No need for a pressure limiter on the rear brakes just use the rear suspension pressure to feed the rear brakes for automatic compensation.
The height corrector on a CX is far less complex than the same device on a Shadow.
Regarding LHM. If my LHM got over 40C I would be worried. You can hold your hand on the tank after a long drive with no problem so water can never be vaporized. How does the water get in there in the first place anyhow?. Pity the Shadow appeared just before Citroen changed to LHM. While LHS is not a death sentence it is far less forgiving. I know and have seen the process of changing a LHS DS to LHM. Not that much of a problem, just change all rubber components with items readily available from later DS's. Can the same trick be played with the Shadow using Spirit bits.
To return to the original subject I presume Pete Burgess is checking for that spacer too. It seems one other check that should be performed is to take your Shadow to the top of a long gentle hill. Make sure the handbrake can stop the car and then set off with the engine stopped keeping speed low by repaeted application of the footbrake. This will find any faults in the failsafe system. I do this on my Cits especially CX's to check particularly the Brake Accumulator which is often overlooked being a real mongrel to get out. Pete got away with his incidents but it is easy to imagine a far worse scenario.
After all why bother owning and driving a Shadow or Citroen if the hydraulic system is not up to par.
Greg |
David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore
Post Number: 174
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, 24 January, 2004 - 08:46 am: | |
Hi Greg and thanks for your comments - the various quirks and idiosyncracies of the Citroen and R-R/B systems were discussed at our session and we will benefit from future discussions as we get to know each others systems better.
Our cars were designed by engineers using best available technology and ideas at that time and subsequent experience has thrown up patterns of behaviour, repair and maintenance that were not envisaged by the designers. Sir Henry Royce's philosophy "take the best there is and make it better" certainly applies to the Shadow as some of the quirks/known weaknesses of the Citroen system were avoided by the way the sytem was utilised and the type of components installed by R-R.
The later changes to the hydraulic system by Citroen were obviously successful as these were largely adopted without change by R-R with the Spirit and later cars however R-R never went as far as using a common hydraulic system for brakes, suspension and steering.
I agree with Greg's last comment with the further comment that the hydraulic system does enhance the driving experience and this is what makes our cars unique. If we just want to get from point A to point B, we can use any car. If we want to enjoy getting from point A to point B; that is a different matter altogether!! |
Bob UK
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 195.93.33.11
| | Posted on Sunday, 25 January, 2004 - 08:43 am: | |
moisture gets into the system via hoses. They sort of sweat moisture in.
I suspose my CX was a bad example however I did drive it for 100 miles at an average of 90 mph.
Impresive for 1600 kg car and a 2.5 diesel and no turbo.
Opening any window slowed the car down CX does work!
The car also had self centring PAS with speed governor. Hyd pressure loss meant an unsteerable car.
The hyds never actually failed just continally leaked
Spirit parts can be used on Shadows the pumps have no rubber parts.
Hoses could be replace with Aero quip around.
and maybe leave the low presure in rubber to give correct feel.
You could probaly connect the LP to the HP and replace the master with a rubber block.
However The Shadow brakes do work and are powerful.
Thing with Shadows is that they not only accelerate faster than you think but also stop quicker than think. That is one of the driving qualities of Rolls -Royces effortless.
many times people said that they are un sure about the brakes but when they hit them in panic the car easily stops.
I drive all RRs with a light touch otherwise the car responds badly.
I think this gives the illusion that the brakes are not as powerful as they really are.
Every now an again through I throw the anchor out of the window on a clear road to check both the car and my driving skills. I am happy when I have got the bumper on the deck and the tyres squealing in tortured agony from 70 mph down to 30 mph I get off the brakes half way through and do a lane change and back on anchors.
A trick that ever driver should learn ---a life saver. tryes 35 psi all round.
Reserve braking capacity and brake effeicny.
This is what the UK says.
USA EUROPE AND AUST NZ JAPAN are broadly similair by agreement.
The service brake ( foot brake ) must have at least 50% braking effort --- 1000kg car 500 kilos from all 4 wheels total.
The NOMINATED secondary system 25%
The parking brake 16%
In a car with a single line system the secondary system must be the parking brake so the parking brake must make 25%
This is one reason why daul line is neccesary for disks brakes --- disks brakes and parking brakes are differcult to get 25% out of.
With dual line the manuafacture nominates one of the dual line circuit as a secondary brake.
The Shadow easily pass the the regs.
The brake roller test is not very good because when I roller test my Shadow the front brakes lock at 300 kilos when to get 50% I really need to see 600 kilos on each wheel. The tester can then only assume that because brake has locked that it must be OK --- I know different through.
If I were to weight the front to get more traction I could find that the maximum is 310kg and the wheel is still turning.
The hand brake barely makes 12%.
The car passes because there is a small loophole in the regs.
If the design of the vehicle is such that the braking system cannot make the percentage then the tester will take it in to consideration.
For example if you have a Ghost with rear brakes only then because the car is as designed then the tester will be expected to pass the car providing the brakes are as good as they can be.
Because the tester knows from experience that the type of hand brake fitted to Shadow is marginal he will pass it
For a car to pass it must have brakes with the engine recently stalled.
Recently means with in 6 minutes.
Brakes means 2 full applications AFTER the warning device has warned
Also the vehicle must have if fitted with hydraulic power brakes or air brakes either a gauge an audible warning a light or a flag .
some vehicle have all 4 only one has to work.
In the case of the Shadow it means that after the lights for low pressure have come on you must have 2 full applications with in 6 minutes.
My car has 90 pumps before lights on and 5 goes before brakes go to nothing and I have master only which will stop the car.
It is very unlikely that both power circiuts fail at the same time and that if the engine stops that both power systems will light up at the same time.
Plus the back up of the master and the hand brake means that no brakes is unlikely providing you pay attention to warning lights.
I have had a power system go ( no 2 pump to acc pipe -- rust hole behind clip )
The brakes would easily stop the car and drove 5 miles home in perfect safety worring that I was running the pump with out fluid. no damage done. new pipe £86 bugger to fit.
Before the Low P 2 light came on the low fluid came on. Warning me that I was losing fluid I checked the tank saw number 2 low. top up turned round and 3 miles from home low pressure 2 came on meaning I am leaking before the brake valve.
No sweat.
Reports of RR total brake failure are usually down to idiots who don't know what they are doing and muck the system up then ignore al the warning lights and take the bulbs out.
Rest assured if you stamp hard on that pedal the car will stop.
So many Shadow have brakes that need fine tuning.
The workshop manual gives a lot information that is intended as guidance for the profesional mechanic. And also a lot is left out because the professinal mechanic would already know and has been on the factory courses. The fine tuning of brakes is not in the manual.
I have found that the master cylinder push rod needs very careful adjustment to get the pedal right.
I see so many where because the rear brakes have locked on when the car got hot that they have shortened the push rod too much and the brakes are lifeless.
The brakes still have all the power but are differcult to feel add a bit of air and you have low pedal.
I read a posting about a guy who jumped in his Shadow 2 after it had been stood for a couple of weeks and rolled the car forward to move it a couple of feet with out the engine running and lost control--- no engine no master no brakes.
absent minded bad luck. fortunately he stopped the car on the parking braking before he hit anything.
I have nothing agianst LHM quite the contary however it is not good as has been suggested though and as Spirits get older they will and are having the same problems and some more we Shadows don't have.
I hear tales of Spirits awash with LHM dripping from every where.
One mod that the Shadow dearly needs is relocation of the valve bodies and accumulator to the inner wing with HP flexibles from the engine.
Also it has too many flexible HP hoses coils of cupro -nickle ( knuifer ) could be used for the subframes where there is little relative moment.
I don't bother with mods because I know the system works fine as it is with regular inteligent maintainance. And as for the cost of the parts if you compare like with like you will find that the prices are not too bad. ( I do think that In some cases that people are being overcharge purely because it is an RR Accumulators spring to mind )
The disks for an Arnage are £1600 a pair and are an often required service item. I was fortunate to find a near new used set for £80. £300 new.
A complete rear bumer is around £1200 and ready to fit unlike even the cheapest modern cars. Honda Prelude Bumper £1500 by the time it is painted and fitted.
|
Greg Churm
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 144.137.112.222
| | Posted on Wednesday, 28 January, 2004 - 10:20 pm: | |
Hi Bob
a few points
I guess the one big design consideration difference was that RR would never accept a car that went down on its haunches or changed its attitude greatly whereas Citroen were quite content for the owner to get down on his hands and knees to get in at times.
When the active testing of brakes came in the testers would try and get the best reading. The best I got from a CX was a peak of 98% and I believe in overseas roadtests the handbrake could do about 30% so it would pass the tests you describe.
as for LHM one telling statistc is the number of mechanics that were employed by Citco for hydraulic repairs. Went from 4 to 0.5 with the intro of LHM. I rest my case. We did hear some horror stories at the joint meeting about Spirits and leaking LHM but meetings like that generally give a distorted view of the number of problems. I'll bet there is more work and maintenance on Shadows than Spirits as happened with Citroens.
As for maintenance I totally agree, and keep things the way they came from the factory. There is something immensely satisfying with tinkering with and adjusting something on a car and get it to perform at its best; something that is missing from modern machinery. You have far more scope with the braking system on a Shadow than any Cit
Finally I can't understand your disdain for the coils in the hydraulic pipes to allow for movement, they are great, simple reliable and no moving parts. Citroens use them too to great effect, the best being at the rear suspension, to feed the rear brake caliper. The coil is in line with the trailing arm pivot, it has about 10 coils and never gives trouble.
cheers
Greg |
Bob UK
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 195.93.33.11
| | Posted on Thursday, 29 January, 2004 - 12:08 am: | |
actually I said that coils are better I am familair with the coils in line with the pivot idea. It works great.
The main problem with hoses is that they sweat moisture in and flex a bit under pressure and they wear out.
The CX is more complicated because the car rides on a column of oil with a bubble of nitrogen for a spring.
In 1955 the DS was the best riding car around. However nowadays coil springs are just as good with out the drama.
My CX used to drop over night to the deck and was very low to get in to. The CX had no where near the build quality of the Shadow and the best bit of my CX was the diesel engine if the car had been petrol I would not have entertained it.
The only reason I brought the car was because it was cheap at £80 and had a nice engine. I was actaully looking for a P405D estate when I found a Safari lurking in the corner of a used car lot.
I ran the car for 3 years untill the head gasket popped at 230,000 miles and called it a day and brought a Merc 207D which after 5 years is still going well at 197,000 miles. If the Merc were a car I would say that it is the best car I have ever owned. It certainly the best van I have ever had.
Being in the trade I get to see and hear about more broken cars than normal I rarely hear about the ones that aren't because I don't fix them.
I think this can make one see faults where there is not.
If you were to buy a new RR then none of this discusion would be relevant because the car is not going to break and the owner would no doubt sell after 4 years and buy another new one. |