| Author | Message | ||
     Udo Hoffmüller Experienced User Username: udo Post Number: 37 Registered: 2-2008 |
Question from a german T1-driver (early model): What is what we see at the front left in the engine compartment next to the oil filler?? No idea. Regards - Udo  | ||
| Mernon Lollich Experienced User Username: mernon_lollich Post Number: 34 Registered: 5-2005 |
I would think it's the power steering pump. Mernon | ||
| Randy Roberson New User Username: wascator Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2009 |
His engine room is surely neat, worthy of more photos! | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 365 Registered: 6-2006 |
Yes, PAS pump. No air con compressor and a dynamo . Nice looking early car. (and nice clean brake fluid reservoir to boot! | ||
| Nigel Johnson New User Username: nigel_johnson Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2008 |
Front levelling removed? | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1149 Registered: 4-2003 |
The pump is more or less straight out of the Silver Cloud box presumably while they worked out how to use the newer Saginaw item. Adverting to my previous observations this pump was the last to have a filter in the reservoir after that they simply ate themselves! This car has had a lot of work done on it as Nigel notes. Not only has the front levelling been removed but the later spring pot caps have been fitted. The generator coped until aircon and front fans were fitted when the battery was rescued with a modern alternator. It even has an original washer bottle and motor which suggests a gentle life. These had the happy knack of melting on a hot fast run! Anyway full marks for the presentation whoever did it! | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1833 Registered: 4-2003 |
That's a really rare and very early car with a dynamo and no refrigeration indeed. A handful of the earliest cars are without refrigeration like that. That creaky Holbourn-Eaton steering pump is also standard fare for very early cars without refrigeration (refrigeration was an option until about Chassis 2,300 for RHD and 3,000 for LHD). As with 99.999% of early SYs, the front levelling was of course removed by authorised dealers in accordance with the service bulletins. Only neglected ones still have the front levelleing. This one has presumably worn its tower covers out as many have done, and a 1969+ replacement pair fitted without the dregs of the front levelling present anymore. Yes, the presentation appears exceptional ! RT. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 366 Registered: 6-2006 |
They WERE a bit scary with front levelling, as though they didn't wallow enough! I think the top plate was probably a deliberate mod (no top plate to wear out with the old rams) - long stroke dampers and longer springs fitted. May even be a Harvey Bailey kit in there - I hope so! | ||
| Nigel Johnson New User Username: nigel_johnson Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2008 |
We fitted a washer bottle from a '75 P6B Rover I found lying about the garden. I think that type of steering pump was fitted to the P5 and P6. I've seen early cars with the self levelling still fitted recently on ebay. In fact the Paris Show car is on at the moment. Regards, Nigel. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1835 Registered: 4-2003 |
Nigel, I have seen many Silver Shadows looking like they still have that awful front self-levelling. However, The bits may be there, but the front levelling is almost always inoperative, either by ball bearings in the unions to block the fluid or by other methods (many Silver Shadows have had their rear levelling blocked the same way by an owner or used car lot looking for a quick or dishonest sale). The front self-levelling rams and the brackets on the tower covers often remain in place, as does the levelling valve. New tower covers and later dampers are a bit expensive and a big job to fit unless the springs are out for another reason, so the ram-types usually remain for decades until the damper holes have become oval with wear or if the early dampers are no longer available as replacent parts. Some cars were even delivered ex-works with the visible hardware in place but not functional. Some earlier cars even had the front levelling routinely disconnected pre-delivery by the likes of York Motors Sydney. RT. | ||
| Nigel Johnson New User Username: nigel_johnson Post Number: 9 Registered: 12-2008 |
Thanks Richard, Thats my daily advancement in Rolls Royce knowledge. I should have clocked about the top plates from the previous posts. In a recent Tee one Topics Bill removes the top plate, springs and dampers. Looks a right PITA and dangerous toboot. I wonder how many dealers in the UK were courageous enough to disconnect it? Regards, Nigel. | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1150 Registered: 4-2003 |
Please what is a PITA Nigel? Lest you frighten away too many people let me assure them that I use high tensile steel rods to restrain the spring together with high tensile nuts! The tool was copied from one of our country's largest dealers and its general design has been copied many times. I doubt whether courage was the problem with the dealers you refer to, rather it was a lack of equipment and/or the will to invest in it. When I was a teenager I was present when an apprentice removed the top of his head from just about eye level by undoing the top outer fulcrum pin on the front suspension of an early Holden car. I think I have got over the shock 60 years later but I am still very carefull. Some years ago a fellow in this country decided to remove the front spring from a Spirit by progressively undoing the spring pot retaining bolts. Apparently the lid stayed there until the last bolt which broke. No one was hurt physically but the pot cover finished up in the next street having travelled over the roofs of several houses. Some neighbourhood it seemed was missing its idiot! | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 367 Registered: 6-2006 |
Bill, Pain in the arse. I've seen the aftermath when springs break loose, but thankfully never actually seen one leaving without excusing itself. I've wondered into to R-R franchise workshops and witnessed why it's not a good job to give an unsupervised apprentice. At least 5 or 6 R-R and B's damaged on both occasions - I've heard of plenty of others to. I get at least 4 calls a year from people who have them half way out, and then decide to ask what the job entails. I use a much smaller tool than Bill's to 'lock' the spring and plate while I remove them from the car and then decompress them on the floor with a much larger tool. Much worse than a PITA job without the correct tools. Not so bad otherwise. Give the lower spring plate a bath in WD40 a week or so before you start:/ | ||
| Nigel Johnson New User Username: nigel_johnson Post Number: 10 Registered: 12-2008 |
Hi Bill, I meant UK RR dealers incurring the wrath of the factory in disconnecting the front self levelling. I know you take the greatest care with all your work. It is important that you take on these jobs to show the rest of us what is involved. Not a job for two pegs and a skipping rope! Regards, Nigel. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 368 Registered: 6-2006 |
Nigel, It was a modification issued by R-R! Too many customers getting sea sick, I think! | ||
| Nigel Johnson Experienced User Username: nigel_johnson Post Number: 11 Registered: 12-2008 |
Thanks Paul LoL. I must start reading the previous posts more carefully. When you think of all the time and effort that went into designing and then fitting it to the cars, all to no avail. What were the factory roadtesters doing? Regards, Nigel. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 894 Registered: 4-2003 |
By all accounts, the application of self-levelling to the front suspension was one of those "it seemed a good idea at the time" moments. Don't forget the fact that the Shadow was originally designed for the US market and the obvious preference of US buyers for the characteristic wallowing "boulevarde ride" of US-made prestige cars. Any wallowing that was experienced during prototype testing most likely would have been regarded as a successful outcome and no futher action was required before release. | ||
| Nigel Johnson Experienced User Username: nigel_johnson Post Number: 12 Registered: 12-2008 |
I've just read an article about US manufacturers in the '50 and '60's. The designers knew perfectly well how to "keep the balloons on the floor." But it was the all powerfull sales team that insisted upon the wallowy ride which lead directly to Ralph Nader and "unsafe at any speed". A "sports" car the Corvette being the main culprit I believe. The Shadow broke the mould of RR in so many ways. With all the early problems with the brakes. It comes as no surprise really that the quick fix to sort the handling was just to disconnect the front levelling. Regards, Nigel. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1837 Registered: 4-2003 |
Actually, the main issue was not wallowing. Especially, Australian-spec cars do not wallow very much due to the stiffer suspension all round. Even then, Yorks were routinely removing the front levelling long before the Factory made a definitive decision to follow Yorks' and Kellows' lead. Thank Bert Ward, Don Appleby and Alan Lowe for their foresight once again. Remember how Bert Ward designed the welded chassis rework for MkVI cars, later taken on by the Factory during the production of the R-Type ? It was the nasty habit of an early Silver Shadow to exit a long sweeping highway bend with a set lean for a few minutes which was naughty. Apart from being unpleasant, it caused somewhat unpredictable highway handling. It would never pass homologation in that form these days. They only had a single height control for both front rams. Through a corner, the fluid all migrated to the ram on the inner arc of a corner. There was the special roll-restrictor valve to reduce that, but it only worked on quick curves. It had a time constant of about 30 seconds. It slowed the fluid migration a bit, but could not prevent it satisfactorily at all. In long highway curves, the fluid had time enough to migrate, leaving a distinct lean to Starboard for a while afterwards. RT. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 895 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Nigel, The "unsafe at any speed" vehicle was the Corvair not the Corvette [beware of possible lynching by Corvette enthusiasts  ]. If my memory is correct, the Corvar had a cheap and nasty "swing axle" rear suspension which resulted in sudden oversteer if driven inappropriately which US drivers invariably did with consequent accidents many of which were fatal. It is interesting to note the VW "Beetle" which had a similar rear suspension was not subjected to the same scrutiny as the Corvair by Ralph Nader (Message edited by david_gore on 05 August 2009) | ||
| Bill Payne Experienced User Username: wimpy Post Number: 19 Registered: 1-2007 |
GM had deep pockets and could be demonized much easier. Nader's ultimate aim was notoriety for himself. My experience with several GM rear drive cars in road racing (they didn't have nor need swing axles) was each could give you an exciting ride. We called it trailing throttle oversteer, could have you looking where you've been in a nanosecond. | ||
| Larry Halpert Prolific User Username: larry_halpert Post Number: 123 Registered: 9-2003 |
The Corvair written about by Nader was the first body style made through 1964. The problem was rectified by Chevy for the 1965-'69 model designed by Pinninfarina. Those handled well, and used a true independent-rear-suspension (IRS )system. But, Corvair never recovered & was discontinued in 1969. Nader never had, and still doesn't have a driver's license.  Larry http://mutley.hypermart.net/RollsSubstituteParts.html (Message edited by Larry_Halpert on 05 August 2009) | ||
| Nigel Johnson Experienced User Username: nigel_johnson Post Number: 14 Registered: 12-2008 |
My apologies to all Corvette lovers.Its about forty years since I read Naders book. We were lucky enough to see a very early Corvette at Capesthorne Hall the other week.Regards, Nigel. | ||
| Peter Colwell Frequent User Username: peter_colwell Post Number: 74 Registered: 3-2005 |
As I recall, the Corvair problem was a combination of its heavy rear engine behind the rear axles, together with the swing axle system. The system caused wide variations in rear track width under hard cornering. The tuck-in effect. Several other cars used a similar system, including some of the ealry sixties Mercedes-Benz models. The Mercedes system added more control, but they were also noted for their peculiar handling characteristics when under duress. A Colorado friend has a complete Corvair amongst his collection. |
