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Udo Hoffmüller
Experienced User
Username: udo

Post Number: 23
Registered: 2-2008
Posted on Tuesday, 02 June, 2009 - 08:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The foot operated switch to change the lights from low to full beam and back is a device that I never liked. So it was only a question of time (nearly 20 years, haha) to fit a relay to change the light with the headlamp flasher - sorry, I do not know the correct terms, but I guess you will understand what I mean.

So I fitted a bistable relay, the working circuit is operated by the headlamp flasher, while the wires from the foot operated switch are connected to the other side of the relay. It works fine, only a slight movement actuating the headlamp flasher and the full beam is on, again touching the headlamp flasher and the relay switches back to dipped headlight. Fine so far, just what I wanted.

But what I do not understand: Is the full current of the headlights, full beam as low beam, running over the foot operated switch? Or does the foot operated switch actuate a relay (or more than one) that energizes the headlights so that the foot operated switch is only connected to much lower current?

The headlight bulbs are 55 W each, the full beams are 60 W. This would mean a current of about 18 A resp. 20 A - too much for my relay that is made for 16 A maximum. Maybe there is some reserve, but it would be working close to its limits. On the other hand: The (bistable) relay I fitted does not warm.

So, what I did is - simply spoken: Instead of the foot operated switch I use a bistable relay. What we originally do with the foot operating the switch do I with the headlamp flasher. The bistable relay does the same as the foot operated switch. But how much current, how many amperes run over the foot operated switch? The whole 18 or 20 A of the bulbs? Or only the current for operating some relays to provide the current to the bulbs? (In my case it is even worse because I have 6 full beam headlights, the two fog lamps are full beam, too, - fog in Tenerife???? - but they are disconnected for the moment, security first :-)).

Any comments, please!

Best regards from TF - Udo
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Jeffrey McCarthy
Prolific User
Username: jefmac2003

Post Number: 130
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Tuesday, 02 June, 2009 - 08:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Udo,
Where is the headlight flasher located? I have a 1974 Shadow 1 and wasn't aware that there is a switch to flash the lights.

I have a Shadow 2 indictor stalk with high/low beam switch which I'm considering putting on my car because I have trouble using the floor switch (I'm about 5ft tall and can just reach it)
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John Kilkenny
Frequent User
Username: john_kilkenny

Post Number: 77
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Tuesday, 02 June, 2009 - 10:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Udo,
If you look at the diagram on Page 486 of Tee One Notes Issue 33, you will see that all the headlight current is carried by the foot switch.
John
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1712
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 02 June, 2009 - 11:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Headlamp dipping. Those floor switched were old-hat by 1970.

For the conversion schematic for all Silver Shadows and SZs before chassis 20.000, see below. For a better drawing than the picture shown below at:

http://rrtechnical.info/sy/bulletins/headlampsmodss.pdf

Crewe issued a service bulletin covering the modification around 1988, but it is painfully overcomplicated, expensive, and of an inferior design. That will also be in the Technical Library tomorrow for a laugh.

I did the modification to my own design (if I could flatter it so much as to call it a design), the one shown in the link and in this post, in around 1984 to our T-Series. It is a very simple modification done purely under the dashboard in about 30 minutes. It only needs a generic headlamp sequernce relay with pinouts 30, 56, 56a, 56b and 5. Any auto spares shop will stock them in half a dozen brands.

Furthermore, I have another modification shown in the diagramme in the next post to ensure that the headlamps only toggle between high and low beams with the headlamps turned on. That way, they don't toggle when you flash the lamps to acknowledge pedestrians or other behicles without the headlamps turned on by the main switch. The headlamps always come on with the same beam on which they were last left. That is also rather essential, especially in Summer, and I have had it on my Turbo R and T-Series for many years.

For better detail see:

http://rrtechnical.info/sy/bulletins/headlampsmod.pdf

RT.

Silver Shadow and early SZ essential mod:
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1714
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 02 June, 2009 - 11:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

To toggle dip relay only when headlamps are turned on. An easy underdash modification on an SY, and an even easier underbonnet wiring job on an SZ up to Chassis 27998 !

RT.

Modificvation to prevent headlamp relay toggling without headlamps switched on at the main switch. Click on the link for a clearer diagramme.

http://rrtechnical.info/sy/bulletins/headlampsmod.pdf

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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1715
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 02 June, 2009 - 12:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

As promised, and for a laugh, see what heavy weather Crewe made in fitting a headlamp sequence relay to replace the floor switch.

They only introduced the sequence relay into production so late that they had been practically the only manufacturer to have sold cars with floor dipswitches for well over a decade ! On the Silver Shadow the floor switch was an annoying curiosity. On the Silver Shadow II it was an embarrassment. On the SZ it was an insult to the customers. My opinion of course. Phew.

RT.

http://rrtechnical.info/sy/bulletins/creweheadlampdip.pdf
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1717
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 02 June, 2009 - 12:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jeff,

Your (SY) headlamp flash relay is under the dashboard. It is to the right of the steering column from memory, but it is clearly marked. I mounted the new sequence relay behind the carpeted kickboard by your right ankle. There is plenty of space there.

Unlike on Crewe's awkward modification, no other additional dipping relay is required.

The existing leads going to the floor dipswitch are simply rerouted to the new sequence relay. They are plenty long enough. Only one extra short wire is required, simply connected by a double spade adaptor to the flasher relay wire from the flasher switch. It is routed to the new sequence relay nearby.

I don't quite understand all of your post. Your car has an indicator stalk identical to that of a Silver Shadow II, and also to any SY at least until 1992 for that matter. Pull it towards you and your main beams flash. SSIIs have a floor dipswitch of course, identical to yours, and the SSII headlamp flash system is identical too.

RT.
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Jeffrey McCarthy
Prolific User
Username: jefmac2003

Post Number: 131
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Wednesday, 03 June, 2009 - 01:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Ah Richard,

Thanks.

I never knew I could flash the headlights by tapping that lever forward...you learn something new everyday !

I do have an indicator lever (below) which I thought was from a Shadow II, but may in fact be from a Spirit which has the high/low beam switch on it - Garath was experimenting with retro-fitting one to a Shadow I about 8 months ago; I must ask him if it ever worked out.

Cheers,

Jeff


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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 334
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, 03 June, 2009 - 05:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jeffery,

Internally, I think you'll find it's the same as your switch, but with the functions printed on it. It's off a Spirit, judging by the connector. And probably Australian spec. to boot - black instead of chrome :-)

Hmmm I must be a bit weird - first thing I do when I get in a strange car is start trying out all the buttons and switches.

(really annoys taxi drivers! lol)
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Mark Herbstreit
Frequent User
Username: mark_herbstreit

Post Number: 81
Registered: 5-2005
Posted on Wednesday, 03 June, 2009 - 07:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Jeff,
Have you also discovered the map light on the drivers side by pulling the headlight master switch out towards you? Just remember to push it back in before you lock up for the night!
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1720
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 03 June, 2009 - 07:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Ah. The map light. That is a party trick.

The dealer always made a point of going through all these things on new cars, and why aren't they handed down with the car I wonder ? The map light is an extremely effective device with its focussed beam.

I know a guy who has had a Silver Shadow for 30 years. I turned on the map light one eveing last month and he almost fell off his perch. Another I met had removed the bulb assuming that the wiring was faulty until I pushed the swith inwards to turn it off in February. Yet another in Canberra in April who has owned his Garath-serviced Silver Shadow for a few years was astonished to find the map light when I showeed him. That is a feature which continues right through the SZs until the Nacelle was finally deleted.

When all else fails, read the handbook.

RT.
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Jeffrey McCarthy
Prolific User
Username: jefmac2003

Post Number: 132
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Thursday, 04 June, 2009 - 07:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi all,

Yes I've tried the drivers side map light - unfortunately it doesn't work ! It's probably the most useful light on the interior too: I'm told it's probably a faulty relay. Apart from the bulb - which I've checked - is this likely to be the problem?

Read the handbook? Richard - the handbook is for leaving in the glovebox in pristine condition to impress passengers - under no circumstances open it - you might get greasy pawprints on it...
;-)

Paul - thanks for the info - if it doesn't do anything more than my current switch I won't bother installing it. I've got a nice little Lucas switch which I'd originally intended to install next to the steering wheel for high/low beam which I might go with.

The build sheets for my car note that the drivers seat mounts were specially lowered and placed to accommodate the (presumably tall) original buyer: I'm, however, just on 5ft high which makes the dip switch a real stretch for me!

I've just yesterday dealt with this by using the factory issued "drivers seat adjustment bars" (4 metal bars with holes in them) which they sold to people who wanted more leg room - I installed them backwards which moves the whole seat 2 inches forward. When I've finished painting the floor (POR15) and got the insides back in I'll post some photos.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 336
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, 04 June, 2009 - 08:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

LOL, jeffrey - Surely the stuff above was to negate the need to fit another switch.

Personally I love the voice activated Main / Dip beam switching unit fitted to these cars.

Just utter the word MAIN or DIP and the lights automatically do it. Even when your passengers say it & it will operate happily with any voice. Brilliant. . . .
Well until your passengers says it when you're not concentrating and forget to push the foot switch :-)

Personally I love the foot operated dip switch - leaves your hand free to do more important things – like regal waves to non-RR&B drivers :-)
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1722
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 04 June, 2009 - 08:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Is the POR15 for the rust ? A heavy dipswitch foot leaves your hand free to do more important things like picking your nose in front of regal wavers and non-RR&B drivers I assume.
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Jeffrey McCarthy
Prolific User
Username: jefmac2003

Post Number: 133
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Thursday, 04 June, 2009 - 08:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Duh !
Paul- I just re-read the above posts; talk about missing the forest for the trees !!!

I was so confused about this new *flashing* thingy people were talking about I didn't digest the main point of it all. Definitely a mod I'll get around to. Driving on country roads needs a lot of dipping(and waving for that matter).

P.S. Does your voice activation unit change traffic lights to green as well?
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Jeffrey McCarthy
Prolific User
Username: jefmac2003

Post Number: 134
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Thursday, 04 June, 2009 - 09:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard - yes the POR15 is for some surface rust in the drivers floor pan. I treated it with rustkill when I first got the car (and fixed the leaking windscreen seal) but it has gotten worse - fortunately I think I've caught it in time - I've bashed everywhere with the sharp end of a screwdriver and didn't punch any holes but there's about 2-4 square inches where the metal is noticably thinner. In the process of designing the new centre-console box, one thing leading to another, I've ripped out the entire interior and will do the whole floor with POR15 and then line it all with Dynamat and Dynapad.

(Message edited by jefmac2003 on 04 June 2009)
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 337
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, 04 June, 2009 - 09:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard, Random but . . . .I guess we all have different things that are important to oneself.

Picking noses is nowhere near the top of my list :-) - but carrying gloves (in case I ever have the pleasure or going near the steering wheel of your lovely cars) has suddenly moved up a few places.

Whatever floats your boat I guess. Happy picking Richard :-)

Jeffrey, hopefully with the new runners you'll be able to click away to your hearts content. If not all the necessary details are there for you now 8)
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1723
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 04 June, 2009 - 09:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

How do you pick your nose wearing gloves ? Tutorial please.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 338
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, 04 June, 2009 - 09:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard - I didn't realise that nose picking was mandatory in your cars Richard - I think I'll forgo the pleasure after all :-)

Perhaps the real reason Michael Jackson only wears one glove has been revealed. I understand he's keen on picking noses.

A new one each year - judging by the photos of him :-)
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1725
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 04 June, 2009 - 09:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

You can't pick your friends. You can pick your nose etc etc. No Smilies allowed.
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John Kilkenny
Frequent User
Username: john_kilkenny

Post Number: 78
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Thursday, 04 June, 2009 - 03:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The map light you are discussing must be a later addition.
On my car(SRH1405), pulling out the master switch turns on a small green lamp in the capping rail, so you can see where to put the key at night.
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Stephe Boddice
Frequent User
Username: stephe_boddice

Post Number: 71
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Friday, 05 June, 2009 - 10:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

John,
S'not the point - it's green to enhance the nose picking results.

(Message edited by Stephe Boddice on 05 June 2009)
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 340
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, 05 June, 2009 - 11:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Stephe - LMAO.
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John Kilkenny
Frequent User
Username: john_kilkenny

Post Number: 79
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Saturday, 06 June, 2009 - 07:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I say chaps,
These nose picking jokes are all very well but my chauffeur has pointed out that removing the foot dip switch prevents any self pleasuring when the driver needs to dip the headlights.
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Jan Forrest
Frequent User
Username: got_one

Post Number: 78
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Tuesday, 16 June, 2009 - 01:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The glove/nose picking quandary is quite simply cured.

Wear fingerless gloves like wot I duz, innit?
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Udo Hoffmüller
Experienced User
Username: udo

Post Number: 26
Registered: 2-2008
Posted on Thursday, 25 June, 2009 - 08:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Well, in the meantime I realized my circuit to protect me against high current. It looks just like the first circuit Richard presented at the beginning of this thread.

headlamp dipping with headlamp flash switch

What I would like to realize now is this: When the headlamps are switched on I want to have headlights only, no beam. But I do not yet know how to realize that. At the moment always the opposite of what you left is switched on: If you switched off the ignition with beam, you will have headlights the next time. If you switch of the ignition with headlights on, you will have beam next time.

Okay, I can live with this solution. But it would be slimply nice to have it started always without beam. Any easy solutions?

Regards - Udo
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John Kilkenny
Frequent User
Username: john_kilkenny

Post Number: 85
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Thursday, 02 July, 2009 - 08:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Udo,
You may like to experiment with the circuit below to try and make the headlights start in the dipped state.

When the headlights are switched on, the capacitor in the additional relay circuit will charge through its winding and operate it for a short time. (The capacitor will discharge through the headlights on switch off.)

I don't know your relay parameters but a 1000uF/25V capacitor will provide about 30mA/33mS and seems about right, but you may need to experiment.

If the sequencing relay is in the high beam state its winding will be energised through the new relay and change to dipped beam.

A race condition will exist so it may be necessary to include the capacitor in the dotted square to maintain switching current.

Of course it will also depend on the parameters of the sequencing relay.

If this arrangement works it will not be necessary to prevent the flasher from switching the sequencing relay when the headlight switch is off.

Flasher Mod
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1776
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 02 July, 2009 - 09:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

John,

Not because the suggested cirvuit if flawed, I'm afraid that I don't think that the circuit will work. I believe that Udo has not shown the complete circuit. The circuit as built can be seen in the first diagramme above, disregarding the pencil markups.

Missing in Udo's diagramme is the original head flasher relay. Udo has not stated that he has removed it. It is causing a backfeed into the sequence relay when the ignition is turned off.

It need not be removed, A diode is simply needed in the wire from the flasher switch to the original flasher relay to avoid the unwanted toggling and to eliminate any relay race.

RT.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1777
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 02 July, 2009 - 10:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

ps: Udo, you could always revert to the schematic I have shown. Apart from the sequence relay itself, no other components or relays are required and the wiring change is an absolute minimum. It works as it should.
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Udo Hoffmüller
Experienced User
Username: udo

Post Number: 27
Registered: 2-2008
Posted on Saturday, 04 July, 2009 - 06:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard, I did not remove or touch the flasher relay. The only thing I did is really the circuit shown. It is easy and works fine except for its unwanted toggling. I did not want to touch the flasher relay because the access to it is poor.

I hope I do understand where to try to put the diode. I will give it a try and see what happens.

Regards - Udo
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Udo Hoffmüller
Experienced User
Username: udo

Post Number: 28
Registered: 2-2008
Posted on Saturday, 04 July, 2009 - 06:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

John, I will try out your solution as soon as I have a second sequencing relay and the capacitor. I am not sure that it will work, but the relay is 10 Euros, a nice investment for playing around and have some amusement :-) and perhaps some surprising success.

Regards - Udo

(Message edited by udo on 04 July 2009)
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Udo Hoffmüller
Experienced User
Username: udo

Post Number: 29
Registered: 2-2008
Posted on Saturday, 04 July, 2009 - 07:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard, sorry, you are of course right, the circuit is not complete as far as the flasher relay is concerned. Where I put "headlamp flasher" I did not plot the wire that goes to the relay. To be correct I should have depicted the plug where I connected the sequencing relay, what I did is practically a splice. But I guess this was clear enough by the description given. Sorry for any confusion.

Regards - Udo
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John Kilkenny
Frequent User
Username: john_kilkenny

Post Number: 86
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Monday, 06 July, 2009 - 02:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Udo,
My suggested circuit will not work with your configuration because it requires an isolated input to the sequencer relay. It would be necessary to use the Flasher Relay +12V output together with an isolating power diode to the high beam line to make my circuit work.

With your circuit, the input to the sequencer relay is normally at +12V, goes to Earth when the Flasher Switch is operated then returns to +12V when the switch is released to toggle the relay. This means that the relay winding is energised nearly all the time.

This also explains why the relay reverses itself when you switch on the ignition.
Regards,
John
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1782
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, 06 July, 2009 - 07:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

This quick, easy and very correct fix will eliminate the annoyance. Easiest will be to connect the diode at the existing flasher relay itself using spade connectors.

No new relay, no capacitors or additional wiring. No relay races: just a 4 cent diode is required.

http://rrtechnical.info/miscellaneous/diodes.html

RT.

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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1784
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, 06 July, 2009 - 07:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Udo,

ps: similar diodes are used in similar applications throughout these cars.

They are used in the door switch lighting circuits, climate control, alternator regulators and and and. You can see them all over the place in all SY and SZ wiring diagrammes.

They do not cause any drain current to flatten the battery. Quite the reverse: they are usually inserted to eliminate leakage currents and unwanted relay energisation, both being a feature in this case if no diode is inserted. The unwanted currents can flatten the battery slowly, so the diodes are essential.

So, this is no quick and nasty solution whatsoever, rather it is standard industrial and automotive good practice to apply diodes in this manner.

RT.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1789
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, 06 July, 2009 - 08:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Udo,

Important and Correction ****

On looking again, I would be surprised if your circuit diagramme were as you have installed it. If the diagramme were correct as installed, then the dipping would either not work at all with the headlamps turned on, or would work in a rather peculiar manner.

If it is not wired as shown below to the left of the vertical line, then I strongly recommend that you make it so.

I have redrawn it in the manner in which you may have installed it (although the 12V may be 12V battery or 12V ignition: no matter anyhow), as the flasher switch grounds the circuit. It does not connect it to power.

Note that I have even shown the diode in the diagramme above in the wrong place. In the diagramme below, I have shown two diodes now to be absolutely sure that the solution is foolproof.

I would definitely insert two diodes as shown below.


RT.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1792
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, 06 July, 2009 - 09:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

ps: if the circuit in my last post to the left of the vertical line is not as you have already wired it, then moving the wire alone as shown may solve your problem !

That alone is a very important thing to check and to rectify if necessary.

That it works at all if wired as you have shown depends on which relay coils are wired through 12V+ and which through 12V ign, and just possibly upon the reaction speed of each, both factors being relevant to every relay in the whole headlamp system. Sequence relays are usually the slowest, and maybe yours will energise in reverse polarity with some fraction of 12V. That may explain one possible mode of operation.

However, inserting the diodes is very good practice anyhow. It would definitely ensure that there are no relay races regardless of the configuration.

The circuit as you have shown it earlier could only work in a peculiar and undesirable mode, with the two relay coils probably being in series whenever the ignition is turned on, ie each at some fraction of 12V. The sequence relay coil voltage would drop to 0V during dipping to toggle, and the voltage across the flasher relay coil would go to 12V.

Relays may work at a fraction of 12V (6V +/-), but they are of course designed to work reliably with at least 10V across the coils and most types only with one poalrity.

As John implies, and as explained above, both relay coils may be energised permanently in series whenever the ignition is turned on, with the sequence relay being in reverse polarity, and having enough voltage to energise it and the flasher not enough. Again, that is also one explanation why it works at all, and why switching off the ignition toggles the sequence relay.

Many relay internal suppressors are freewheel diodes (for example, Bosch relays in SZs), and they are invariably destroyed instantly if energised in reverse polarity. As stated, I do suspect that your sequence relay, which may luckily have a bipolar suppressor, is only ever working in reverse polarity mode. That type of suppressor being inside your sequence relay may possibly be the only reason that it is still not ruined.

If you indeed have wired it the way you have shown, then one other slight possibility may just be that it only works at all due to a relay race !! That is very poor practice indeed.

RT.
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John Kilkenny
Frequent User
Username: john_kilkenny

Post Number: 87
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Tuesday, 07 July, 2009 - 10:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Udo,
If you want to experiment with resetting the sequencing relay when switching on the headlights the circuit below is an alternative.

The description is the same as my previous message.

The upper left diode must be able to pass the headlight flasher current and must be positioned before the safety relay.

If you have installed an additional relay panel you could replace the flasher relay with a DPDT version and use the second set of contacts to apply +12V to the sequencing relay input. No diodes would then be necessary.

The fuse numbers are from my car (SRH1405)which may not be the same as later cars.

Regards,
John

Flasher Mod
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Udo Hoffmüller
Experienced User
Username: udo

Post Number: 30
Registered: 2-2008
Posted on Tuesday, 21 July, 2009 - 06:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thank you all for your assistance! In the meantime I realized what Richard proposed because of the easiness of the solution, I used simply two of the diodes I had left from changing the ones of the ACU on the fuseboard. And it works! It works fine, the unit is mounted in the space/hollow between steering column and fuseboard. And if one day a purist wants to switch back to the original wiring with the dip switch, it is esay simlpy to reconnect the three wires to the dipswitch.

Well, now the headlamps are at full beam if you switched off at full beam, and at dipped beam if you switched off at dipped beam. But: I would be nice to have them always dipped when switching on the headlights. When you use the lights in dawn or twilight you would not realize that you are driving with full beam after switching on the headlights.

I tried to find a simple solution, but my knowledge about electrics is too limited. I know, it is unnecessary to add this feature to the circuit, it is a toy, even RR offers in TSD 6000 a (more complicated) solution that does not have this feature. But I am afraid this will not be so easy as before adding simply some diodes ...

Any solutions?

Best regards, Udo
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1810
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 21 July, 2009 - 07:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Well, Udo, if you are keen, the simplest way is to fit a small printed circuit board - a home made one on Veroboard.

You would have fewer relays that way as a bonus.

You would apply:

One CMOS D-type (ie Toggle, or Bistable) flip-flop IC eg a 4013 ($1 or less)
Two driver transistors BD139 ($1)
A few diodes (50c) and two resistors (10c)
Not much else.

The driver transistors would simply operate your zwei Standardrelais from the Q+ and Q- outputs of the flip flop. Hence, by still using those relays, there will be no change to the power side of the setup.

It would replace the sequence relay, and be smaller. Wiring would be minimal, probably a wire-for-wire replacement for the sequence relay you have just fitted. I may make one up for myself in a few months and send you one out there in the Atlantic. If you want a circuit diagramme for this toy, do let me know and I'll knock one together for you in less than half an hour.

R.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1814
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 21 July, 2009 - 10:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

This is how to wire it.

1. Look at your circuit, and at the sequence relay you have fitted. Isolate it visually, and look at it like this:

2. Build up a new solid-state sequence relay on a small piece of Veroboard (3cm x 3cm will do) according to the diagramme below. It is a wire-for-wire replacement for your existing one. Note the connections T, Q+, Q- +12V and chassis/0V. They wire to the same places as on the drawing above.

The new sequence relay is inside the dashed box, and is exactly compatible with the existing electro-mechanical one as you have applied it, Udo.

Note that the diodes in the diagramme are only to prevent damage due to voltage spikes in this instance. The other diodes and all components as you have just installed them, apart from the sequencing relay of course, remain unchanged.

Below is the pinout for a 4013 CMOS integrated circuit, about 2cm long:


It's as easy as that. Remove your sequence relay, connect the wires correspondingly (+12V, 0V, Q+, Q- and T), and its done. The headlamps will always wake up dipped !

RT.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1815
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 21 July, 2009 - 10:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

One quick note:

The +12V marked above is of course the +12V from the headlamp switch. That is, it is +12V only when the headlamp switch is turned on.

RT.
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Udo Hoffmüller
Experienced User
Username: udo

Post Number: 31
Registered: 2-2008
Posted on Wednesday, 22 July, 2009 - 12:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hey Richard! You are faster than the famous canarian wind! I will get the parts and give it a try. Just to avoid mistakes:

- 4,7 M means MegaOhm?
- 0,01 uF means microF?

Regards - Udo
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1817
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 22 July, 2009 - 01:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Genau. Precisely.

- 4,7 M means 4,7 Megohms (4.7 Megohms in English)
- 0,01 uF means 0,01 microFarads (0.01 Microfarads in English) A 0,01uF cap costs next to nothing. Anything between 0,01 uF and 0,1 uF will do.

The smallest size resistors will do (1/16W etc), and any small capacitor is good for well over 20V (typically they are 2'000 Volt).

RT.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1819
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 22 July, 2009 - 06:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

And for completeness, here is a BD139, TO126 package. Any medium power (1 Amp or so) NPN transistor will do. A BD137 is fine for this application for example. In a purely switching application like this, power dissipation is so low that no heat sink is required.

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Udo Hoffmüller
Experienced User
Username: udo

Post Number: 34
Registered: 2-2008
Posted on Saturday, 25 July, 2009 - 01:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard, I am following your advices. The parts are to be ordered, Wolfgang (you remember him) will bring them all from Germany next week.

I know BD139 very well, we used them already to repair the coolant level amplifier which is about 60 GBP from Introcar and 1,50 Euro from Udo :-)

When I have put together everything, I hope this will not be indians electronix with smoke signs rising from my desk :-)

Regards - Udo

(Message edited by udo on 25 July 2009)
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1822
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 25 July, 2009 - 01:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

IMPORTANT CORRECTION******

Udo,

Yet again, I have made a major fundamental mistake in the circuit.

The Flip-Flop D connects to the Q-.

Also, connect the R and S inputs to 0V to be sure.

Sorry !!!

RT.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1824
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 25 July, 2009 - 02:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Just in case you can only find a 74HC74N CMOS flip flop, the pinout is a little different. Also, the R and S are exchanged for R- and S-, requiring a minor wiring change as shown below. It is equally good.


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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1825
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 25 July, 2009 - 02:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

And yes, Udo, the BD139 NPN and BD140 PNP are far better transistors than the pure rubbish Crewe used throught these cars. Your coolant warning will last forever. I did mine in 1984 on the T-Series and it is 100% now of course. That's just a little better than the 10-12 years you can expect from a £60 replacement, assuming that it is not old stock (they mostly are old stock) or a few months from a £40 secondhand one !!
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Udo Hoffmüller
Experienced User
Username: udo

Post Number: 42
Registered: 2-2008
Posted on Sunday, 06 September, 2009 - 05:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dear Richard, in the meantime I put everything together. But there had so many other things to be done that I did not find time to try it out. And now I am going to Portugal with the Bentley for three weeks.

But I will let you know if it works as soon as I have it fitted. By the way - "T" in your scheme means the connection to the flasher switch at the steering coolumn?

Regards - Udo
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1930
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, 07 September, 2009 - 12:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Yes Udo, and sorry for not being completely clear.

The T contact goes straight to the flasher switch. It is the same T as you show in your own diagramme. See my extract stolen from your diagramme, the one I posted on July 21.

Likewise, the Q+ and Q- correspond 1:1 also.

Greetings from Canberra this time !

RHT.
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Jeffrey McCarthy
Prolific User
Username: jefmac2003

Post Number: 171
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Wednesday, 04 November, 2009 - 05:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

While I have the top roll off on the dash I wonder if anyone knows where I should look to fix the driver's map light on SRH20280 (1974 Shadow)

It has never worked and I'm hoping it's something easier than disassembling the ignition barrell.

The light itself works when the door is opened - it's just that it doesn't operate when I pull the switch on the ignition forward.

Any advice appreciated.

Cheers,
Jeff
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 480
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, 05 November, 2009 - 01:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jeffery,

Does the MAP light come on when the door is opened? or the interior light in the same light. There are two separate bulbs, which should be wired to separate circuits.
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Jeffrey McCarthy
Prolific User
Username: jefmac2003

Post Number: 172
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Thursday, 05 November, 2009 - 05:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Paul,

Both the courtesy light and the map light on the driver's side come on when I open any door. The front passenger map light works off the switch as it should and both rear lights work as they should i.e when manually switched.

It would appear then that some wires have been crossed ? You don't by any chance know which of the wires from the ignition switch end leads to the appropriate relay?

Thanks, once again, for your advice.

Cheers,

Jeff
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 481
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, 05 November, 2009 - 10:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jeffery,

I believe on your car it would just be a wire from the switch to the map light. No relays.

It sounds as though the light has been wired up so both come on with the door timer. I'd have a quick look at the wiring in the lamp and see if there's one feed to both ends.

Regards, Paul.
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Jeffrey McCarthy
Prolific User
Username: jefmac2003

Post Number: 173
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Sunday, 08 November, 2009 - 09:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Ah Paul, once again...exactly!

Someone, presumably unaware of the existence of the map light switch on the ignition, had simply disconnected the wire at the light fitting end and bridged across from the courtesy light.

I reconnected the wire and presto!!!

Thanks,

Jeff
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Jeffrey McCarthy
Prolific User
Username: jefmac2003

Post Number: 230
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Friday, 12 November, 2010 - 11:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard,
Just to clarify how I do this. I have some photos and want to make sure I'm connecting the correct wires to the correct pins on the correct relays.

I want to do the second modification; running the wire through the bulkhead to leave high/low beam in the last used state.

First Question: There are three wires to the dipswitch:
Dipswitch Wires

Latching Relay

Which ones go to which pin on the latching relay?

Second Question: Which of the wires at the back of the Flasher switch is connected to which pin on the Latching Relay?
Rear View of Flasher Switch
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Jeffrey McCarthy
Prolific User
Username: jefmac2003

Post Number: 231
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Friday, 12 November, 2010 - 11:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I forgot to mention - my Shadow is a 1974 series one although the photos are of some spares I have from both a slightly earlier car and from a Shadow II switch lever.

Third Question:

I think this is the Relay which is the "dip "relay.

It is located just above and to the right of the steering column next to the blower motor relay.

Under Dash Relay
Lucas Relay Schematic


Is this correct? Which coloured wires should be connected to which pins on this relay?


Fourth question:

The bulkhead relay is the one on the left in the picture. To which pin on this is the new wire connected and to what is the new wire connected under the dash?


Bulkhead Relay Box

I can only apologise for the somewhat baby-step approach but the above thread still has me confused and perhaps I just understand things better in pictures.





(Message edited by jefmac2003 on 12 November 2010)
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Jeffrey McCarthy
Prolific User
Username: jefmac2003

Post Number: 233
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Saturday, 13 November, 2010 - 02:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Righto - I've figured out Question 2 by disassembling the spare switch. The blue/black plastic wire from the lever (BUP) gets connected to the 'S' terminal on the Latching relay.

Should be fairly easy to remove the spade terminal at the connector and solder both wires to a new one.

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Jeffrey McCarthy
Prolific User
Username: jefmac2003

Post Number: 234
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Saturday, 13 November, 2010 - 02:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Question four above I've figured out from the diagram - the dash end of the wire connects to the same blue black plastic wire and to the 85 terminal under the bonnet - except of course LUCAS relays have a different numbering system.

It must be either W1 or W2 because its one end of the coil? Bear with me I will figure this out eventually.
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Jeffrey McCarthy
Prolific User
Username: jefmac2003

Post Number: 235
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Saturday, 13 November, 2010 - 03:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Mmmh - there is only one W pin on this relay; presumably the circuit board connects it to ignition.

Relay number 332271 D 12v 1573 LUCAS 6RA

Relay number 332271 D 12v 1573 LUCAS 6RA
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Jeffrey McCarthy
Prolific User
Username: jefmac2003

Post Number: 236
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Monday, 15 November, 2010 - 12:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Still rather heavy going on this. I can't seem to locate the relevant relay near the steering column.

I'm assuming that what is referred to here as the "dipping" relay is the one on all the Crewe diagrams is labelled as "dimming".

From tracing various wires it doesn't appear that the relay is near the steering column on my series one.

The above relay (my second post Friday Nov 12) has 2 heavy gauge black/yellow cotton cables and a black earth bridge. Possibly I've plugged things back in wrongly previously when tracing an intermittent headlight fault.

Does anyone know what the 3 relays (4 if you look underneath) next to the coolant level amplifier box in the centre of the dashboard relate to?

Below is a section of the practical wiring diagram for RHD cars from 9000 which seems to be the latest practical drawing before the series 2 cars.
http://rrtechnical.info/sy/tsd2476/14.pdf

On it is a relay labelled "fuel warning lamp dimming relay" which appears next to the blower motor relay and the ammeter shunt.

The question is: is it possible that one relay could be used for 2 different functions like 'fuel lamp' and 'headlight dimming' but be drawn as separate relays on the theoretical drawings?

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Chris Browne
Experienced User
Username: chrisb

Post Number: 34
Registered: 2-2010
Posted on Monday, 15 November, 2010 - 08:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Jeff,
Not sure if the attached photo will be of any help but these are the relays and amplifiers in the same location but on a Shadow 2. Hopefully, they may be the same on your car?
Kind regards,
Chris
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Jeffrey McCarthy
Prolific User
Username: jefmac2003

Post Number: 237
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Monday, 15 November, 2010 - 09:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks Chris - very helpful actually; slightly different alignment but seem to be the same.

I'm going in to Albury tomorrow to get the practical diagrams blown up to 400% - I managed to score paper copies but the wire colours are unreadable in fine print.

I suspect I've done something backwards when I put the headlight wiring back together after searching for an intermittent fault. Trouble is I can't seem to find a black cotton wire with yellow tracing anywhere on the diagrams and they are now plugged in to what I think should be the dipping/dimming relay.

I'm photographing everything so hopefully by the time I'm finished it'll be easier for the next person to follow.
Cheers,
Jeff
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2262
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, 26 November, 2010 - 12:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jeffrey, I have just seen your latest posts.

Have you sorted it all out now ?

Actually, I have never used the practical wiring diagrams and find them rather useless. The wiring is rather simple, and at most the theoretical ones are enough. To be sure of which relay does the flashing, you can feel or hear it click when energised.
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Jeffrey McCarthy
Prolific User
Username: jefmac2003

Post Number: 240
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Friday, 26 November, 2010 - 03:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I've had to put things on hold for a few days Richard (work keeps getting in the road of life...) but I've been thoroughly studying the diagrams. My main obstacle at the monent is still these two black/yellow cotton wires - can't seem to find them on any diagram but there they are, sitting just to top of the steering column. I've got all next week free so will keep posting photos as I proceed.
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Jeffrey McCarthy
Prolific User
Username: jefmac2003

Post Number: 241
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Tuesday, 25 January, 2011 - 07:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Okay success ! I now have the dip switch removed and am happily toggling between high and low beam using the flasher switch on the indicator lever. As a bonus the flasher now works - and therein lies a tale.

A previous owner had deleted the flasher relay ! In it's place they had bypassed the relay board and just used a normally closed relay wired into the headlight circuit.

Some attempt to make the flasher work on this relay had been made as there was a signal wire from the lever to the new relay under the the bonnet. It didn't !

The actual job of putting in the new relay was about an hour.

Figuring out what had been done before and replacing the original wiring and the flasher relay took a good week ! And it was lucky that I had a spare OEM flasher relay lying around in the shed or it would have taken longer.

If I make changes to a circuit (and often when I don't) I label things - for my own memory as well as for any poor soul who may have to figure it out in the future.

I didn't do the extra modification which left the lights in 'last-used state'. I thought the gain was somewhat marginal for the added complexity and couldn't quite figure out what to do from the diagrams anyway.

However - when I first got the car the high-beam indicator light on the dash was so dull it wasn't visible in daylight.

I removed it and replaced it with one I had sanded the plastic lens off and siliconed a bit of blue stained glass on it instead. This died during my above experiments and I replaced it with this arrangement which means I can always tell what state the headlights are in.





I had tried an LED previously: WARNING ! Do not put an LED light in this position -- it focuses straight into the driver's eyes and will burn a hole in your retina if it doesn't cause an accident first !

Here is a photo showing the latching relay with the wires attached.

1- Blue cotton wire [ U C on the RR wiring diagrams ] is power and goes on pin 56 -- there is a small bridging signal wire from this pin to pin 30 - I used blue/black plastic [ UB P ]to match the switch wire (left over from disassembling the previous bypass)

2 - Blue Black plastic wire from flasher switch lever connector to 'S' pin.

3 - Blue Red Cotton [ BR C ] to pin 56b - this is the low beam circuit

4 - White Blue Plastic [ WU P ] to 56a - this is high beam. In the above photo it is Yellow Blue, this is from the earlier re-wiring job that somebody did and was probably the closest they could find.

(Message edited by jefmac2003 on 25 January 2011)
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Jeffrey McCarthy
Prolific User
Username: jefmac2003

Post Number: 242
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Tuesday, 25 January, 2011 - 07:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Photo of Relay 'wired up'.
The connector is visible above it in the shot.



And this came in very handy during the entire operation:

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Jeffrey McCarthy
Prolific User
Username: jefmac2003

Post Number: 267
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Sunday, 16 October, 2011 - 09:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

My sequence/ latching/bistable relay has died after about 10 months of use.

It took me months to find an auto-electrician that had (an old) one (1) in stock and it cost more than a bottle of (good)cognac so I'm looking again.

Does anyone in Australia know of a retail supplier of a good quality unit? Any brand recommendations?
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Graeme Söderlund
Prolific User
Username: graemeaus

Post Number: 56
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Monday, 17 October, 2011 - 09:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jeffrey, contact Auto Electrical Imports at 07.3274.3077. They have a huge range of items and can help you with this.

Graeme Soderlund
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2435
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, 17 October, 2011 - 12:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jeff,

Ashdown Ingram http://www.ashdown-ingram.com.au/ will have these as stock items. A-I wholesalers are all located over the country and are highly regarded as wholesalers and retailers alike. The autoelectrical trade relies on A-I very heavily, so click the link and find your nearest. You may also try practically at any OEM outfit, but any decent autoelectrician should stock them. For example, Volvos used this relay from around 1970 to at least 1990. Autopro, Supercheap and Repco may have to order one in for you. This type of sequence relay is as common as they come. Look for one with pinouts named to the international standard: S, 30, 56, 56a and 56b. I must say that I have never had one fail in 30 years. Perhaps it was mounted too rigidly to the chassis. These relays are often rubber mounted.

RT.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2436
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, 17 October, 2011 - 04:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I have found any number of these relays. Try Bosch 0-111-941-583 and you will find it on 1970s Porsches and VWs for a start (VW Part Number 111-941-583) selling for anything from $15 to $50. It is also made and distributed by Hella and Narva, and is sold under the aftermarket Porsche brand Empi as well. I mentioned Volvo before because that’s where the on on our T-Series came from decades ago, but it features on most German cars from about 1970 onwards. No doubt you will find it at Holden and Ford too. I wouldn’t recommend a used one as it probably hasn’t been switched for years (especially if you find it at Flynns, Jeff). A Crewe part will do, but this relay is generic.


Quote the VW part number 111-941-583 and it should be easy to buy one. As mentioned before, first call or email is probably to Ashdown-Ingram (Albury), but they will ship a part for you wherever you call them.

RT.
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Jeffrey McCarthy
Prolific User
Username: jefmac2003

Post Number: 268
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Monday, 17 October, 2011 - 07:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks for all that info.

I went into Albury today and was met by blank incomprehension by the various teenaged counter staff at the usual auto stores.

One auto-electrician however sold me a NEW ERA NLR-132 (picture below). Nice robust unit but not sure if it can be used - I picked up some extra n/o and changeover relays in case I could get it to work though.

Tomorrow I will go over the entire circuit; as I mentioned above when I first installed it, one of the front relays would occasionally 'buzz' until I turned the switch on/off a few times ( Maybe the flasher or safety relay needs replacing).

I thought the diode had solved that problem. When I put the (previously omitted) flasher relay back in and restored the wiring to original I was pretty exact but it's possible (just) something is wrong there.

The low beams come on via the main switch even with the dipswitch wires are disconnected - this is as it should be No?

Or has someone possibly changed this as part of a previous 'fix'.

As I mentioned above all four headlights came on for high beam.

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Jeffrey McCarthy
Prolific User
Username: jefmac2003

Post Number: 269
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Thursday, 20 October, 2011 - 01:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Eureka! Paul there was no problem with the original relay.

Having gone over the entire circuit I discovered that the wiring which I'd earlier restored contained a post factory connection further down the loom which I'd missed.

This and an intermittently faulty connection behind the fuse box were causing the headlight safety relay to constantly trigger (to one headlight) which was locking the bistable relay and preventing it from switching.

Once again - thanks for all the advice. Jeff