| Author | Message | ||
     KC Saayman Frequent User Username: kc_saayman Post Number: 74 Registered: 10-2004 |
My car is a 1974 Silver Shadow. I would like to replace the fuel pump and notice that Burlen now offers an electronic replacement pump, as well as the original with points. I am tempted by the newer electronic pump, and was wondering if anyone here has had experience with it. My specific questions are; 1. Can anyone confirm that Burlen part number AUA8EN is a direct replacement for the original points pump AUA 8? 2. If so, does it bolt straight on, or is modification required? 3. Is there any reason not to go with the electronic pump? 4. Was fuel pump replacement ever covered in T One Topics? If so, does anyone know in which issue it was covered? (I’m a huge T One fan) I have written to Burlen as well, and will let the forum know what they say. Any advice and pointers relating to fuel pump replacement would be much appreciated! Kind regards KC | ||
| Paul Yorke Prolific User Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 114 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hello KC, The pumps are a direct replacement to the original points type. Instead of the points they fit an IR beam & eye unit on the base and a 'shutter' on the shaft. The outside is identical. I've fitted a couple when they first came out. The only problem I know of is that they don't like being boost started or getting jump leads flashed on the wrong way because of the transistors etc. They normally build them to order and not have them on the shelf. 14 days or so. | ||
| Jan Forrest Prolific User Username: got_one Post Number: 124 Registered: 1-2008 |
In the same vein: Will an SU AUF 411 fit? | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2111 Registered: 4-2003 |
As a hint to my own opinion: I have a spare electronic type sitting in my shed, new in the box, probably never to be used. Our T has never had any fuel pump problem. Sure, I have checked them from time to time, but they have never needed any adjustment. Even the electronic units need periodic checking, although that is mainly for split diaphragms, It's almost the same on my R-Type. I replaced the pump barrel units years ago when they were tired, but that had nothing to do with the electro-mechanical activation points. It's the old story: they are not a problem, so why change them ? At least the mechanical points don't let you down 100% without warning, nor does an overzealous jump start fry them. There are plenty of compatible spares, barrels and central valve bodies alike, new and secondhand for many cars including Jaguars (the V12s even have the dual pumps with the common central valve body, or you can buy the barrel units from an XJ6). As long as the pressure is correct, there is nothing to worry about. Make up your own mind. RT. | ||
| Jan Forrest Prolific User Username: got_one Post Number: 125 Registered: 1-2008 |
I wish it were that simple with The Old Girl! Unfortunately this is the third time in as many years that she's had the same trouble. The first two times it was just a matter of giving the pump a few judicious taps with a hammer handle or similar for it to burst into life and continue to run for days or even weeks. This time it will only run while being thumped. Last year I cleaned and stoned the contacts on both ends but, in retrospect, should have checked the gaps. I'll take it off as soon as the weather dries up, but in the meantime I'll keep an eye on that AUF 411 which seems almost identical (at least externally) to the AUA 8. The only obvious difference is that the inlet & outlet stub pipes are parallel to the pump compared to them being at right angles to the pump body on the AUA 8. Incidentally: How does the AUF 400 - as fitted to later Cloud IIIs - compare to the AUA 8? | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 567 Registered: 6-2006 |
Jan, basically if they're giving problems then change them. Do check the filter isn't blocked first. But if you have to tap em bin em. I think you'll find that all the clouds and Shadow pumps have gone over to the same one. Burlen fuel system will tell you. I think you're looking for AZX1416. DO WATCH OUT FOR . . . just because the housings across the whole range look the same doesn't mean the innards are. | ||
| Mark Aldridge Experienced User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 14 Registered: 10-2008 |
I have fitted a Facet electronic pump and a pressure regulator to both my S1 and Shadow1 after SU pump failures.Also fitted them to my sons V12 Jag after a diaphragm failure emptied the contents of one fuel tank into the boot. Mark | ||
| Jeffrey McCarthy Prolific User Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 270 Registered: 5-2007 |
I am about to replace the failed SU double fuel pump on my Shadow I. I've opted for the electronic (pointless) SU double pump for ease of fitment; I'll repair the old one for a spare & if I ever need it I want to be able to just bolt it straight in. I intend to change both fuel filters while I'm at it - this is the first time I've done this myself. I need to know 2 things: 1- How do you block off the fuel lines to change the filters/pump? I've been told to use a large nail but it seems to me this might damage the rubber line. 2- What is the size of the fuel line from the tank to the pump? - filters seem to come in two diffent hose connector sizes. Any advice appreciated in advance. | ||
| Brian Vogel Experienced User Username: guyslp Post Number: 31 Registered: 6-2009 |
Jeff, When I did my Shadow II (SRH33576) last year I did not need to plug the line from the fuel tank to the pump when removing the pump. In my car the intake is situated below the level of the line where it enters the pump. You could certainly acquire cork stoppers of the necessary size at your local craft store to use for this task. I took out a segment of the fuel line that I needed and carried a slice with me to the local auto parts store to match it. The only thing I recall is that the line going in to and the line going out of my SU pump are the same size. Also, on my car the first fuel filter (the one in "the can" beneath the car and that now appears to be "made of unobtainium") is forward of the pump in the system. The only "filter" for the pump is the screen internal to it. Good luck with this. What follows is information I posted on the RROC-US forums after doing a pump extraction, rebuild, and reinstallation last year. Some may not apply to you, but some certainly will: Well, this project is very, very close to completion. Getting the bolt & nut that attach the pump bracket to the overhead bracket, which must be done entirely by feel, is being a real PITA. Tomorrow it's off for a slightly longer bolt, which should make this significantly easier. Miscellaneous notes regarding taking the pump out and putting it back in, both of which are a royal pain: 1. The two brackets that surround the pump and bolt on to the side of the car are so long that there is no way to remove the nuts from the bolts unless you partially withdraw the pump to allow it. When you go to put the pump back in you can only slightly insert the bracket bolts and start the nuts then slowly draw the whole thing in. 2. Unless you're a miracle worker, you must do the electrical attachments for the rear-facing pump before you attempt to put it back into place in the car. You also must remember to route the wires above the pump when you reinstall it or they're dangling such that they'll hit the half shaft when driving (and we don't want that!). It is helpful to craft a "third hand" out of a hanger that assists you in holding the pump up near the underside of the car. These things are heavy and it gets really difficult to hold it in one hand while working on it with the other. 3. When removing the pump the instructions tell you to loosen the inlet and outlet connections and to remove them before taking the pump out. This can be done for the input connection, but I could not come close to doing it for the output connection. I dropped the pump, holding it in one hand, then removed the outlet connection and the rear electrical connections before completely removing the pump. 4. It is a far, far easier thing, at least to me, to attach the input and output connections before even attempting to put the pump back in. Since you'll likely be replacing the rubber fuel lines, they're very flexible and very easy to slide on to the tubes. Make sure you have remembered to place the Jubilee clips/hose clamps on the ends of the lines before you slide them on to their respective lines. Also be certain that you consider the logistics of the positioning of the screws on the hose clamps. You'll need to tighten most of these with a socket using an extension, and having them properly oriented is vital. 5. The input pipe can be slid into the fuel line as part of putting the pump back into place right after you've completed the rear pump electrical connections. Don't forget to tighten the hose clamp. 6. You will definitely need to wrap the output pipe with Glad "Press N' Seal" or some other sort of cling wrap before starting to put the pump back in. It gets bumped around in lots of crud when you're positioning the pump and you don't want any of that on the pipe. You can then just peel the stuff off, slide the new fuel line on, and tighten down the hose clamp. 7. Be very, very careful of the rubber boot around the trunion joint when you're working in that area with wrenches and when you're trying to put the pump back in the car. In both cases there are many projecting bits that could very easily pierce the boot. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 810 Registered: 6-2006 |
Jeff, a Shadow one is a doddle compared to a II! The filter is an element in a can and is situated above the drive shaft. If you break the fuel line there, it should not syphon out of the fuel tank when doing the pump. Don't try and undo the clamping brackets, undo the brackets from the car. You can often get away with undoing one bracket and sliding the pump out of the outer bracket. On The Shadow II, there is a hole in the very front on the boot floor with a rubber bung in to help access the wires on the rear of the pump. Also handy if you need to give them a bang to wake them up if the car has been left for a while. | ||
| Jeffrey McCarthy Prolific User Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 271 Registered: 5-2007 |
You're right Paul, the car is a series one so the pump appears to be somewhat better situated than on the Shadow II. It is located on the right side of the car near the jacking point. Glad to hear the filter line can be broken at the original filter without the need to block it. Brian - I have a little Lucas paper bag of cork stoppers that came in the boot of the car - I've always wondered what their original purpose was but they look to be around the right size. There is also one of those plastic in-line filters in the fuel line just before the pump - without replacing the fuel lines it'd be easier to replace that as well. Being see-through it's a useful indicator also of how much gunk is accumulating further up towards the tank. If it starts getting dirty then time to replace the primary filter. It is for this reason that I need to know the size of the line - they come in 2 sizes - but I suppose I can just buy one of each and see, they're fairly cheap. This is going to be fun - all so I can get the car 400 kilometers (and back) to get a quote on having the rear bumper and panels repaired from the roadside assist incident. Hopefully before Christmas. Sometime down the track I might have the tank removed and professionally cleaned and resealed but that sounds hideously expensive; I've already blown the car budget for this year with a complete transmission rebuild and want to get all the aircon flaps working and the replacement compressor installed before Summer hits with a vengeance. Ah the joys of a high maintenance girl... | ||
| Jan Forrest Prolific User Username: got_one Post Number: 272 Registered: 1-2008 |
Last year some kind soul anonymously helped me out by trying to reduce the weight on the back end of The Old Girl. They cut through the fuel line! I didn't notice until I went to fill her up again and lost a fair bit on the way there & back (2 miles round trip). As the cuts didn't completely sever the fuel lines she still started and ran perfectly. Fortunately there's a hydraulics specialist nearby and they sold me a length of stainless steel braided 10mm fuel hose for a nominal payment. As luck would have it I had recently obtained a large fuel filter of unknown fitment which I inserted in this new fuel line and secured to the underside of the car with a couple of high strength plastic wire ties. I've left the original fuel filter and element in situ since they don't appear to be reducing the fuel flow and shouldn't see any more dirt as the new filter should stop it all. Unless the inline filter fitted to input side of Jeffrey's pump has a paper element I wouldn't rely on it to do much in the way of stopping the finer particles of debris. In my experience the nylon mesh ones tend to be quite coarse and are best used in a multiple setup when large lumps of crud or rust are anticipated which would soon block a fine filter. Since I only run the Shadow on unleaded for the first mile of any outing, with the rest of the journey being on LPG, I expect the filters to last for quite a few years before they will need changing again. | ||
| Jeffrey McCarthy Prolific User Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 272 Registered: 5-2007 |
As I was undoing the bracket bolt which also holds the earth lug in place I loosened a connection which held in place a condenser (?) which is attached to the positive wire at the connection of one motor. I assume it's a condenser - it's one of those little metal cylinders about an inch long x half-inch round with a U shaped bracket which goes under the washer where it is bolted. They seem to be all over the car. It doesn't appear on the diagrams and seems to have been added aftermarket by the look of the connectors. a) Why would it be there? b) Why on only one of the 2 motors? | ||
| Brian Vogel Experienced User Username: guyslp Post Number: 33 Registered: 6-2009 |
Jeffrey, As you note, these are "all over the car" and usually near electrically operated motorized devices. My understanding is that they are there for noise suppression for the radio and the workshop manual documents this in a passing way. See Chapter K [PDF pg 7, in step number 6b]. I don't know why it's only on one half of the dual-pumps, but that must be enough. Also, as a note for the original pump you are rebuilding, you will want to substitute diodes for the varistors that are supplied for the points. The cathode stripe on the diode needs to be connected to the more positive coil connection. It does nothing while the coil is powered but it provides a near dead short (~1V) across the coil for any kickback voltage generated in the reverse direction. | ||
| Jeffrey McCarthy Prolific User Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 273 Registered: 5-2007 |
That makes a great deal of sense Brian - and as I'm finally doing the new radio head-unit and speakers install I've been investigating that subject fairly thoroughly - there is a great community of automobile audiophiles out there in internetland. I had hoped it might have been to protect the motors against 'hard-crank' starting but I guess if there was a way to do that it would have already been invented. Perhaps an appropriate in-line blade fuse on the circuit might at least protect an AU$550 (inc postage) investment against such contingencies? And I have to get a hoist or at least dig a pit - doing things upside down on your back is for younger monkeys !! | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 814 Registered: 6-2006 |
As I was undoing the bracket bolt which also holds the earth lug in place I loosened a connection which held in place a condenser (?) which is attached to the positive wire at the connection of one motor. I assume it's a condenser - it's one of those little metal cylinders about an inch long x half-inch round with a U shaped bracket which goes under the washer where it is bolted. They seem to be all over the car. It doesn't appear on the diagrams and seems to have been added aftermarket by the look of the connectors. a) Why would it be there? radio interference, b) Why on only one of the 2 motors? only one feed shared by both ends. No idea what a "hard crank" is, but you do need to watch Jump starting with leads crossed or using a big booster / charger (never be tempted). I've seen new pumps damaged like this. There are no motors in the pumps. They are solenoids which pull back a diaphragm. A diode and fuse might work. Probably better to tip-ex a big positive sign on the battery so there's no confusion. Au$550 ? Will it have it's own seat for that? :s | ||
| Jan Forrest Prolific User Username: got_one Post Number: 274 Registered: 1-2008 |
The condenser (capacitor in electronics speak) works a little like an extremely tiny battery and is usually used in a 'tuned circuit' along with a couple more components to filter out various unwanted frequencies. Depending on how these are all laid out and interconnected it can block certain frequencies and/or show an effective dead short to ground for others. Since all electrical and electronic components show at least some of all these charactristics (conductance, impedance, reluctance, etc) a capacitor is often employed for similar reasons in car electrics. "So what?" you may ask. "What's this got to do with the pump contacts? They're not electronic." No, they're not, but as they work on a square wave principle being either fully on or fully off with no intermediate phase they are more prone to introducing noise into an electrical system. Without going into the concepts of reverse EMF and other abstruse concepts please accept that circuits don't like this kind of thing and will 'cut up rough' if forced to do it. This presents mostly as high frequency electromagnetic noise which can then propogate as radio waves which can carry up to several tens of yards all around the car. Adding caps at various strategic points (!) can all but eliminate these and reduce the rest to acceptable levels. And they have one more trick up their sleeves which alone is worth the effort and cost of fitting them. As above, a set of simple points will produce noise as they open and close. However a lot of this will be present as a spark jumping across the points gap as it starts to open. As it does so it will erode one of the contacts and transfer some of this metal to the contact surface on the other side. This is why we can often just file them flat again to give them a new lease of life. Adding a simple cap across them will channel a lot of this energy straight to ground reducing the spark and lengthening the service life of the points. Incidentally; there's another set of points in almost all 'older' cars which aren't user servicable but just as important. They usually lurk somewhere behind the dash or on the engine side of the firewall and go by the name of 'instrument voltage regulator'. Although this may sound like a complex bit of electronic wizardry it will be nothing of the sort. In order to give a relatively smooth and regulated voltage to the instruments (mostly the fuel level, coolant temperature, oil pressure, etc gauges) it will switch on just under the set voltage and switch off at just over that voltage. As crude as that may sound it was successfully used for many decades before more sophisticated and rugged fully electronic setups became reliable and cheap enough to be considered for fitting. | ||
| Brian Vogel Experienced User Username: guyslp Post Number: 34 Registered: 6-2009 |
Jeffrey McCarthy writes: "I had hoped it might have been to protect the motors against 'hard-crank' starting but I guess if there was a way to do that it would have already been invented." I'm not sure what you mean here, either. If you're talking about a car that you have to crank and crank and crank to get to turn over I have a tip for you: don't. Instead try this: Turn the key to the run, not start, position and listen for the characteristic tick-tick-tick of the fuel pumps. If your float bowls are empty you will hear a fairly rapid (though not frantic) ticking that promptly slows down and stops. Then turn your key to the start position and see what happens. At one time I cranked and cranked and cranked my car to start it if it had been sitting for more than several days, not realizing that what had happened was that the fuel in the carb float bowls had evaporated and needed to be replenished by the pumps before the car would start. Of course, I was replenishing it during the long cranking process, but this was much harder on the engine & starter than just waiting for the pumps to do their job then starting the car. As you can tell, the pumps themselves do not necessarily work continuously at all, even when the car is running. You'll be able to see this for yourself when you rebuild your old pump and do the testing on it to make sure it actually pumps (with water, of course - followed by a wash-out with denatured alcohol if you intend to mount it soon to allow for rapid drying). If you pinch off the end of the line it's pumping through to prevent fluid from escaping you'll notice that the pump "turns itself off" [well, not really, but it does stop pumping] once a certain amount of pressure is reached in the line. P.S. to Paul Yorke: Is there a generic term for an electrical mechanism such as that employed by the SU pumps that while technically not a motor is still something that translates electrical energy into mechanical energy? I couldn't think of another generic term for the types of devices where these capacitors are attached, but they're not to my knowledge attached around other types of electrical devices. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 815 Registered: 6-2006 |
Pumps on later cars do not even start to pump until the engine is cranked, or in some cases, the oil pressure light goes out. A terrible idea IMHO and we frequently disconnect the fuel cut out relay so this 'fuel starvation' does not occur. I've always referred to electro-mechanical devices that produce rotary movement as a motor and ones that produce a linear movement as a solenoid. Not sure if this may just be R-R terminology though. I think it is mainly the coil part of mechanisms that requires the condenser for noise, spark, or spike suppression. | ||
| Brian Vogel Experienced User Username: guyslp Post Number: 35 Registered: 6-2009 |
Paul, I guess I'm fortunate in that my car (SRH33576) is a home market car that somehow made its way to the USA and was converted to LHD somewhere in its past. It does not have the oil pressure cut-out circuit for the fuel pump, and almost certainly would take forever to start in cold weather if it did. I have a very difficult time keeping track of the various spins on the mechanical/electrical differences for the different markets. Since my car has no catalytic converters or EGR system I was actually surprised at how much "extra" stuff I found under the bonnet/hood on a 1979 SS-II I recently looked at that was made for the US market. I know that in all weather if my car sits for more that a couple of days it's sheer hell to get started if I don't wait for the pumps to stop ticking and filling the float bowls before turning the key to the start position. Brian | ||
| Jeffrey McCarthy Prolific User Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 274 Registered: 5-2007 |
Hard crank' is a term I came across somewhere else in the forums - I assumed it meant one of those jump-start booster devices or turning the engine over and over until the fuel eventually made its way to the engine. Thanks for the tips - I won't do either! Before I fitted the headlights left on buzzer I was forever flattening the battery. I used to drive in daylight with the headlights on fairly frequently until I converted the front Park Lights to daytime driving lights (bridging the parking light switch and using a couple of very bright LEDs) I have also fitted a trickle charger and plug from a later Bentley in the boot as well so I can start the car from mains power as well as keeping the battery fully charged daily. There is a thin plastic tube back to the pump from under the bonnet - I assume this has something to do with draining excess fuel from the float chamber? I don't even know if it's connected because there's also something that drops a small dribble of fuel onto the ground occasionally which I was told was normal. I'll have a hunt around the gubbins to see if the fuel cutout relay has already been bridged. | ||
| Brian Vogel Experienced User Username: guyslp Post Number: 36 Registered: 6-2009 |
Jeffrey McCarthy writes: "There is a thin plastic tube back to the pump from under the bonnet - I assume this has something to do with draining excess fuel from the float chamber? I don't even know if it's connected because there's also something that drops a small dribble of fuel onto the ground occasionally which I was told was normal." Uh, if there is I have no idea what that would be or who would have fitted it. It's certainly not standard equipment. There are very thin plastic tubes coming out of the end caps on some of the SU pumps and from the center of the body that are air vents for the diaphragms so that there is no "resistance" to being pulled back on the non-fuel-contact face. Those tubes typically go to two separate nipples that allow the air to escape/be drawn in from a space where there is not a lot of ambient dust flying about. There is an overflow for the carbs, and I've been told that the very occasional drip is not unheard of, but that generally this mechanism should not be dripping if the floats are behaving properly and not allowing too much fuel to get into the float chamber. I'm sure others can elaborate more, as all of my carb knowledge is strictly from reading. I have not yet needed to tear a carb apart and overhaul it. I'm sure that someone else can clarify. Also, your car may not have the fuel cutout relay, depending on which market it was destined for. Brian | ||
| Jeffrey McCarthy Prolific User Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 275 Registered: 5-2007 |
Ah - they don't go to under the bonnet - they just dissappear in that general direction into a cross member. I'll make sure they're clean and not blocked. Thanks for that Brian. I haven't noticed the drip from the carburettors lately - it happened when I first got the car and it's been tuned and serviced by Bob Chapman several times since then so I'll assume they're working properly. I too have yet to delve into the maze of levers and regulators in that region of the engine. | ||
| Jan Forrest Prolific User Username: got_one Post Number: 275 Registered: 1-2008 |
Regarding the 'hard cranking' to start a cold engine: As my Shadow runs mostly on LPG I tend to leave it set on gas as a security measure. Any thief trying to start the engine from cold will flatten the battery long before the engine tries to fire. It helps that, even if it would start on gas, you would have to wait several seconds after turning the key to 'ON' before then moving it to 'START' to allow some gas into the inlet manifolds. I can't see any such semi-human detritus having the patience to do this. However she won't start on gas (at the moment, but I'm working on it) and I just change over to 'PETROL' and 'pulse' the starter for a second or two while the pump works to fill the otherwise empty float chambers until she does start. After a mile I can start the change over to gas by selecting 'NO FUEL' with the switch until the engine tries to stall and then immediately switching to 'GAS'. As long as there's still a bit of heat in the coolant she will now restart on gas even after a fairly long rest. I believe this is mostly to do with the 'choke flap' in the inlet tubing. There are reports that preventing it from fully closing can on occasion help a Shadow to start on gas from cold. Unfortunately the adjuster on The Old Girl is at full stretch already, so I can't keep it open even a little more by that means. To date I've not thought of a mechanically elegant way of overcoming this. Anything less just isn't on the cards. Even if I can get her to start on gas in future I'll still use petrol on occasion to be certain that the pump can be used if it becomes necessary and to prevent the fuel in the standard tank to be replenished to avoid it going 'stale' through evaporation of the lighter fractions. | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1322 Registered: 4-2003 |
A few observations/suggestions. As Paul points out there have been a number of schemes changing the operations of the pump relative to the operation of the engine. The two main incentives were to protect the engine if it ran out of oil and the desirablity of not having a pump squirting fuel all over a smouldering wreck after an accident. So with a stationary engine you have no fuel being pumped while you crank, at least until the oil pump sucked up enough liquid to create at least a few lbs of pressure to close the switch, turn on the pumps and eventually get enough juice into the boilers to fire up the angry beast. There were a number of iterations of this process depending on the condition of the Chief Engineer's liver on the day. So for most of us who use these cars as a treat rather than a daily driver, it is wise to work out which system your car enjoys. If you only use the car to go to church on Sundays, you will often have difficulty with the cold start. This is because you put the car away with a hot engine on Sunday night and in the ensuing hours and indeed days your carburetters fed the Climate Change debate by evaporating most of the fuel in the float chambers. While 'hard cranking' the next Sunday, you are having to fill those chambers up and get up enough oil pressure to close the switch and get the plugs sparking etc. This is good for the engine because the cranking circulates the oil and gets the bearings etc all nice and drippy. But for your weekly church forays this really is a bit of an overkill since the oils of today cling to the parts that matter for long after you have switched off and when the Lady fires and whizzes the oil pump, the initial squirt through the galleries is more that adequate to avoid bearing damage. For cars that have that reassuring tick the moment you turn on the ignition; of course you will wait for the ticks to subside before trying to start which will be a very good indication that the old girl is loaded and ready to go! For cars that do not have the above arrangement a more professional approach is to move the transmission selector to a position other than 'P' or 'N' then turn the key to the Start position and hold it there. For those of us who can still hear sounds quieter that a fog horn you should be rewarded with a nice quiet ticking as long as it takes to fill the chambers! When this subsides, you release the key, move the selector to 'N' or 'P' and start the engine. And for gas users the above procedure should be the way to go for cold starts! | ||
| Jeffrey McCarthy Prolific User Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 276 Registered: 5-2007 |
A couple more questions: 1- Will the new electronic pump 'click' like old ones with the points? 2- Plastic air breather tubes: My pumps have both the nipples in the centre for the little plastic pipes and the end cap connections. The end cap connectors have a little loose ball-bearing in them - presumably to keep it closed until air pressure forces it to jump open. There are four points to connect the plastic tubes on the cross member and so I've reconnected the two centre nipples as on the old pump. The end connectors on the pump were sealed off (airtight) with a plastic cap but there were bits of plastic tube sticking into the rubber caps and connected to the cross member. I've tried all morning to fit the end cap pipes but they just won't marry with the rubber cover. Should I leave them blanked off or not? If the object is to prevent dust then I suppose having the pipe stick into the rubber boot would help but it seems rather pointless with the connectors capped. Also I suspect the little ball bearings would jump right out of the connector tubes on a roughish road unless there a tube connected. As it was working before I'll leave them capped for now unless someone comes up with a good reason not to. Incidentally, closer inspection of the connectors shows that there was a capacitor/condensor attached to both positive connections; one obviously discarded when the wire broke and not replaced - which I will do. | ||
| Jeffrey McCarthy Prolific User Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 277 Registered: 5-2007 |
After trying the trick with the car in Drive the new pump worked for about 3 minutes. Nice ticking sound etc and then a low hum. The filter just before the pump half filled with fuel. I then tried to start the car in Park and the pump did nothing. It hasn't so much as looked like working since. There is live power to both ends of the pump so it's not a cutout switch or relay futher up the circuit. Is there a procedure I should have done to get the air out of the lines before starting? I suspect, balefully, that the pumps will need to be sent back for repair or replacement. Surely one attempt at starting the car with only air in the lines wouldn't have burned out their delicate innards already? Here's hoping there's something simple that I've omitted to do. A friend has suggested that there might be an air bleeding screw somewhere. After 3 days of this I'm off to the pub for a pre-Cup Calcutta and some large doses of muscle relaxant and angst relief syrup. Tomorrow I get to spend the day on the phone dealing with the insurance companies (oh joy...) SRH20280 is very, very lucky that I love her - I wouldn't take this from any other girl. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 816 Registered: 6-2006 |
The tubes just fit into the rubber covers, not the ends of the pump. Leave the caps and bearings in place. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 817 Registered: 6-2006 |
Apart from the hum?? that sounds like it is working correctly. If you break the fuel line at the carbs, does it continue pumping. They will only 'tick' when fuel is needed. Once the carbs are full they should go silent. Which filter is half full? Above the rear half shaft? If you take the feed pipe off the pump does it resume ticking? This would indicate a blockage between the tank and the pump. This will damage the pump and was the reason Shadow II's had the pump and filter positions swapped over. (not just to annoy mechanics!) | ||
| Jeffrey McCarthy Prolific User Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 278 Registered: 5-2007 |
Paul - there is no longer even a hum. I'm not sure how to break the fuel lines at the carbs. I'll look the manual up in the morning - I'm fairly confident I can figure out where to do that. The filter 1/2 full is the RYCO in-line plastic/paper one immediately before the pump - a useful visual device for this situation as well as for gauging the state of the main filter. I'll take the feed pipe off the pump also in the morning and report back. In the meantime - does anyone know if there are sensors of any sort in the electronic pump that would shut it down if it isn't needed. I'm assuming the original system cuts off power to/controls the pumps when the float chambers are full. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 818 Registered: 6-2006 |
They will only 'tick' when fuel is needed. Once the carbs are full they should go silent because of the switching mechanism in the pump. Mechanical points in the old ones, usually optical switches in the new ones. Each end has it's own switch. Breaking the fuel line . . . spanner on yours. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2442 Registered: 4-2003 |
One last thing: have you cleaned out the filters at the carburettors ? I would assume so as they are item requiring replacement during regular vehicle servicing along with the main fuel filter, oil and other filters. However, on a mid SY1 car I have been helping back to the road after several idle years, those little filters were blocking up solid repeatedly each time after a few dozen kilometers despite tank draining, purging and so on. The filters were repeatedly covered with a clay-varnish residue crud from evaporated fuel in the tank. The filter became so clogged that nothing went through, the pumps stopped ticking as they should with line pressure to specification, and the fuel bowls were dry. You must first undo the fuel feed unions Paul mentions, then remove the float chamber lids to take the filters out for cleaning, replacement or even temporary deletion. Don't be alarmed at leaving them and their springs out for a while as very early SYs have none, and they were only introduced around chassis 4,000 I guess. If those filters are blocked, then fuel will gush from the delivery joints at the carburettore when you loosen them while the carburettors remain dry as a bone. Before you start, order a dozen of the fibre star washers (around 1 1/2cm diameter) for the fuel bowl lid through bolts and a dozen fibre fuel chaber lid fibre rings (about 4cm). Midel in Lakemba (Sydney), the Australian SU suppliers, will post them to you for about 50 cents each. RT. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2443 Registered: 4-2003 |
As mentioned, Midel is the Australian agent for SUs and charges very reasonable prices. http://www.sumidel.com/ Don't even think of buying gasket kits or overhaul kits as you only need the two minor fibre washer types. If you ask for H6 carburettor washers: Washers, fibre, breathing (star), for the fuel bowl retaining bolt, and fuel bowl cover washers, outer, for H6 carburettors, they will oblige by post. I do not have my receipts with me, but bought a few dozen a month or so ago for the needy postwar cars littering our suburb. I can post the Midel part number when I am back in Canberra in a few weeks if you are stuck. A Morris Minor Centre or Jaguar type specialist will have a drawer full of them too. RT. | ||
| Jeffrey McCarthy Prolific User Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 279 Registered: 5-2007 |
Right - I couldn't quite figure out how to break the fuel lines from the manual without disassembling rather a lot of the air intake (I have to get an Alden wrench!) - I assume it's done by undoing the screws which hold the hexagonal fitting into the body of the float chamber? In any case I removed the chamber lids and fuel poured in from the intake and the pump ticked. Good - that problem solved - although I suspect I have a very flooded engine. Unfortunately the car still will not start. It doesn't seem to want to fire so I'll go back to some serious reading and make a few phone calls. I think the distributor is a new electronic one installed in Melbourne about 3 years ago; all the leads are new (about a year ago). The only good news this morning is that the insurance company's legal department has decided to pay for all the repairs from the towing incident - if I can ever get the car started to get it to Moss Vale... | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2446 Registered: 4-2003 |
Take it easy. You don’t meed any special flare spanners or whatever: a standard open-ender will do this job given the size of the nut, and you can do it without ruining your party clothes or chipping your fingernails. I forget the size (11/16” maybe, but a metric will do, 16mm or 17mm – in these larger sizes metrics fit quite closely enough to ensure no damage). Nothing needs removing from the air intakes and removing the lids is a 5 minute job. Believe me, I have done it so many times in the last month. You will need new o-rings for the hexagon-shaped push-fit you mention held by the two setscrews in the side of the lid casting. Standard Nitrile/Buna-N o-rings from your generic o-ring kit will do for fuel just nicely. Buy a kit of BS o-rings in Nitrile if you don’t have one. CBC bearings etc will sell you a kit with a a dozen o-rings of each standard size ranging from ¼” to 2” for about $30 in a neat box.
These engines like to be flooded for a healthy start. In any case, the inlet manifold has a drain with a one-way valve to extract excessive flooding. When there is manifold vacuum the valve closes. When the motor is stopped, any liquid fuel in the manifold drains through that funny tube arrangement located behind the distributor. Flooding is rarely a problem. I have never seen it, but I suppose that the drain valve could stick open or closed. RT. | ||
| Jeffrey McCarthy Prolific User Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 280 Registered: 5-2007 |
Thanks Richard - that's all good news to me. I seem to have done it correctly; it's always a bit confusing when you do it for the first time - part of the cost of rural isolation. I think I'll invest in an hour of instruction in Moss Vale on disassembling and maintaining the various bits of the carburettors - as well as a collection of the various seals from Midel from whom I bought the pump so I have their number to hand. | ||
| Jeffrey McCarthy Prolific User Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 281 Registered: 5-2007 |
After further investigation (a phone call and removal of the distributor cap) it seems I have the original (not electronic) setup after all. I'll move this discussion to an appropriate thread after some more fiddling around checking connections but just for now is it possible that a failing ballast resistor would come to a complete stop? A visiting Mercedes mechanic from Germany mentioned about 6 months ago that one of my pistons was misfiring which might (or might not) be a symptom. | ||
| Jeffrey McCarthy Grand Master Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 439 Registered: 5-2007 |
A question:my new "ecco" (made in NZ) fuel pump supplies a 'restrictor' to put in the return-to-tank fuel line. It's just a double ended connector fitting. Easy to install. The instructions say to fit it if the car has the return-to-tank setup to ensure sufficient fuel to the carbs under heavy demand and to ensure the pump doesn't run at full flow when demand is low. Does the return-to-tank line already have a restrictor? Nothing in the manual indicates that there is anything to regulate the supply of fuel back to the tank but perhaps in that tangle of tubes around the carburettor there is such an animal. Anybody know? SRH20280 is an Australian delivery 1974 Shadow. | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 663 Registered: 1-2008 |
I'm not aware of a return-to-tank fuel pipe on any 70's carbed Shadow. They're virtually only fitted to constant high pressure pumps as fitted to injected engines. In most cases the pressure output of such a pump would be enough to overcome the float chamber valve system causing the chamber to overflow most of the time as the pumps aren't meant to shut off through back pressure like the standard pumps are. | ||
| Jeffrey McCarthy Grand Master Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 440 Registered: 5-2007 |
My mistake then. I guess that black rubber tube going past the fuel pump is a hydraulic line or something. In that case the restrictor is placed on the outlet side of the pump. Their blurb: "Although this pump is used in a number of different vehicles it is most often used in Jaguars and other similar vehicles as a direct replacement for the original double ended SU pump." The information on the restrictor is on a little leaflet that comes with the pump. http://www.fuelflow.co.nz/FF_cms_03/eshop?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=67&category_id=28 | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1272 Registered: 6-2006 |
If you are replacing SU pumps you will noyt have a return, although some shadows and spirits with SU carbs (low pressure) do have returns. Do not cut into the tube by the filter it is highly incompatable with petrol. Small are brake fluid. Big are battery lead. Is it too late to send them back and get SU pumps? | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 430 Registered: 4-2009 |
Paul makes a good point. The difference in price between the proper SU pumps and the ecco units is not that great. So why not fit the correct part in the first instance? I would understand it if the SUs where 3 times the price or if they were particularly troublesome (which they are not). | ||
| Jeffrey McCarthy Grand Master Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 441 Registered: 5-2007 |
My reply seems to have disappeared into the ether. Long story short, SU = more than AU$550 down here. Ecco is AU$155. I like to carry a spare in the boot, but not at $550 a pop. Also the Ecco can be replaced safely in 5 mins by the side of the road. The SU mounting requires using the jack (with body parts under the car and on unsure ground) and takes much longer - the bolts are hard to get at and the electrics are connected with tiny nuts inside the rubber boot - disastrous to lose one in the roadside gravel! | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 3090 Registered: 4-2003 |
You will only need a spare in the boot if you use an Ecco. They may cost $155 but they are worth $5. | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 664 Registered: 1-2008 |
One of these days I'll order a full overhaul kit for my double SU pump, but as it's still working nicely just from stoning the contacts clean & flat ... I have no idea how much the Ecco pump might cost here in Blighty, but who knows how long one might last? IMHO 38 years (39 next January) and counting isn't bad for a simple electromechanical pump! | ||
| Jeffrey McCarthy Grand Master Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 442 Registered: 5-2007 |
With all due respect Richard I've had to replace the SU unit twice in four years. Both times at inconvenient locations. All filters are regularly replaced and the fuel lines have all been renewed. The tank is never less than 1/3rd full. I'll happily throw away replacement units every 2 years if a) they aren't ridiculously overpriced and b) I can change them myself in the dead of night on a country road without calling roadside assist to come and further damage my car in the process. SU might once have been reliable and I'm all for originality but clearly what they're flogging these days ain't worth $5 let alone $550. | ||
| Jeffrey McCarthy Grand Master Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 443 Registered: 5-2007 |
Jan and Paul. There seems to be some confusion here. Either some Shadows have the return line or they don't. Can we get a definitive answer. Did the factory do it or recommend it in a bulletin? It looks like fuel hose to me but I'm not going to cut anything unless an expert is standing beside me. Meanwhile my car isn't moving, fortunately this time it died overnight in my driveway. I'm determined to have a working fuel pump and a spare in the boot that can be changed or repaired by me when I'm on my own. Mostly, and I'm not alone here, I'd like one that works reasonably reliably. I'm open to any suggestions... | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 431 Registered: 4-2009 |
I once had an apparent fuel pump problem. Two indepnedent garages both told me that the fuel pumps had failed. I did not want to believe them - so I ran a 12v supply to the fuel pumps and proved to them that there was nothing wrong with the pumps. If you run a direct wire from the battery to the fuel pump - will the pump tick? if so, your problem will be in the relay and not the pump. | ||
| Jeffrey McCarthy Grand Master Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 444 Registered: 5-2007 |
I will do this Omar, the last one was definitely dead (failed electronics). I prefer the points type pumps because you can usually get them to work with, if nothing else, a tap hammer and a bit of alfoil, at least enough to get you to the nearest garage. I had just driven from Melbourne the day before after having the (points) distributor rebuilt and both the battery and voltage regulator are less than 6 months old. Years ago I suggested putting a largish condensor on the supply line to even out any voltage spikes which might be burning out the pumps. I'm going to try it on the principle that it can't hurt. Tomorrow I'll go over the alternator connections and test it to see if the problem isn't perhaps there. I'll also test the relay as you suggest. Possibly bridge it while I'm at it. | ||
| Bob uk Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.79 |
SU fuel pumps only pump to the carb when the points are open. When the points are closed it is sucking fuel from the tank. The pump draws about 3-6 amps when the points are closed on the suction stroke. The duration of the suction stroke is fast. And the pump spends more time with points open. If the fuel can't get to the pump easily due to obstructed filters then the suction stroke is prolonged which can overheat the coil. Connected in parallel to the coil inside is a swamp resistor which can burn out which causes the points to burn out. The resistor is hidden in the windings. This fault can be overlooked leading to excessive arcing at the points leading to the belief that SU pumps are unreliable. The SU pump is designed to tolerate small particles of dirt so that fine filters on the suction side are not necessary. And also a fine filter is more likely to get blocked which far from protecting the pump is damaging the pump. The filter by the tank must be the correct filter. An easy modification would be to leave the element out and use the case as a swirl pot. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1273 Registered: 6-2006 |
Jeffery, you're asking a very silly question. Did shadows have a return fuel line. Yes they did. But you might as well ask if shadows had blue paint. Yes they did. Is yours definitely blue? How can we answer that.? I think you are looking at the battery lead. Post a photo of the item you want to chop and as long as it's clear we can give you a definitive answet !!! | ||
| Jeffrey McCarthy Grand Master Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 445 Registered: 5-2007 |
Paul my silly question was in response to Jan's comment "I'm not aware of a return-to-tank fuel pipe on any 70's carbed Shadow". A fairly definitive statement. I've grown tired of this forum - I'll talk to the people I know by phone. Should I ever feel the need to be insulted or bullied I'll find a pub in a rough part of town instead. Farewell friends. | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 492 Registered: 5-2012 |
I absolutely agree with Jeffrey. As of late a small group of people seem to think it's ok to ridicule or insult members who have asked perfectly valid questions or simply have a different point of view. It will ruin this forum and it is clear the rot has already started. I hope Jeffrey will reconsider his decision but if not, I would like to thank him for the help he has given me, and others, and hope to see him on other forums. Geoff. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1065 Registered: 6-2009 |
Geoff, I couldn't agree more. As soon as I see the sort of baseless insults that have been tossed out here far too much lately I tend to "go private" to answer those perfectly reasonable questions, and I did so this time as well. It's sad, really, because even I recognize that this is not beneficial in the long term for anyone. It removes information from "the public record" that could help someone else later. I make no apologies, though, for not subjecting myself or others to additional derision that is completely undeserved, uncalled for, and that is appropriately condemned by those who wish to keep the tone civil. A commenter who uses the username, Looking_in, on the Washington Post, recently said it very well: There are many people who can only make themselves feel better about themselves by making themselves feel better than others. Brian | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 3091 Registered: 4-2003 |
It strikes me as silly to carry a spare fuel pump in the boot. If that is needed, then hook up a trailer and carry a spare car behind you as the SU pumps are one of the most reliable parts of a Silver Shadow, Also, you will have spent $310 on two very low-quality fuel pumps. If hellbent on replacing the SUs, then at least go for a Pierburg as fitted to some late SYs. $150 new in a box with a two year warrant from SpurParts in Sydney. I have never had any problem with the SU pumps on my two cars so equipped (1954 and 1972) in a million kilometers. I thought that I did once on the R-Type, but it was in fact fuel vapourisation. Lagging the fuel feed line at the tank where the exhaust is close cleared that in the end. That was in 1977. When Crewe fitted twin exhausts to the R-Types they overlooked that. RT. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1274 Registered: 6-2006 |
Jeffery, I'm sorry that my comment was taken so badly. In hindsight I can see why you've taken what over here is workshop banter, the wrong way and although I can't take it back because it's out there, I do whole heartedly apologise for any offence given. Can I try again if I may . . . Please send a photo of the area you're talking about. I think you may possibly be talking about the battery lead but I can't be sure. As mentioned before, S U pumped shadows don't have a return, however yours may. People modify things and add things. Another way to check would be to look in the engine bay, is there one fuel pipe going to the carbs or two? If you do have a return fitted it is most likely that this is why your pumps failed so quickly, the pump would be running constantly and never reaching the important rest state. I suspect that you would have heard this though? So still no definitive answer I'm afraid, but hopefully you can see where I was coming from and understand I didn't mean it to be insulting.  Regards, Paul. | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 665 Registered: 1-2008 |
All I can definitively say about return-to-tank fuel lines is that my '76 Shadow doesn't have one! Also there's little indication of one anywhere in the official workshop manual. I haven't checked the S2 manual even though my late S1 should be closer to those than the earliest 60's models. However, having glanced at the '84 on Spirit/Spur/etc. manual for someone else, there's definitely one shown on the official drawings. Could it be that there was a quiet, short lived experiment at Crewe to overcome leaks from the float chambers by allowing excess fuel pressure to return to the tank? I know my 'A' bank carb leaks a little fuel in the few seconds between the pump refilling the float chambers and starting the car from cold after running on LPG. | ||
| Bob Reynolds Prolific User Username: bobreynolds Post Number: 166 Registered: 8-2012 |
Surely it's easy to tell the difference between a fuel line and a battery cable. The battery cable goes to the battery and the fuel line goes to the fuel tank.  | ||
| Bob uk Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.77 |
I have seen hundreds of SU pump systems, not one had a return line. All SU carbs fitted to vee engines have overflow pipes that drain to below the engine. The fuel system as fitted does not need any modification. Maybe the filter by the tank is not necessary. Depends on local fuel. I don't understand why some are having problems. Look at from a professional angle. I have many times fixed SU pumps or fitted new ones usually in less than 15 mins and the car works fine. If the pumps gave continual trouble then the customers would complain. RR are the same as any car fitted with SU stuff. Ford approached SU in the 1970 about making SUs SU refused because SU didn't like Ford's layout of the system. SU assist car makers in the correct installation of SU equipment. Meaning that the RR system is correct. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Jeff Young Prolific User Username: jeyjey Post Number: 201 Registered: 10-2010 |
If memory serves, one of the reasons to fit a return line is to try and resolve vapour-lock, which is more of a problem with modern fuels, and with higher ambient temperatures. So while the Shadow might not have *originally* needed a return line, and might *still* not in England, one can at least imagine how one might have been fitted to a car running modern fuels in Australia. And, as Paul has pointed out, if it did have a return line, and did not have a restrictor, then it might also explain the short-lived fuel pumps. Cheers, Jeff. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1276 Registered: 6-2006 |
I don't think that a restrictor would help with su pumps. A photo would help. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 3093 Registered: 4-2003 |
A couple of issues are missing here. The return hose system will usually be fitted when a fuel pressure regulator is employed to yield a precise fuel line pressure. In that case excess fuel is dumped to the tank and indeed may help fuel vapourisation in a poorly-designed system. Having stated that, precise fuel line pressure regulation is especially necessary with fuel injection but infrequently with carburettors as carburettor systems usually feature a fuel bowl. With a fuel bowl the fuel line pressure is largely irrelevant and is maybe just 4psi. Fuel injection systems usually work at far higher pressures whether using conventional jet injectors (i.e. K-KE2 mechanical) or Piezo-electric modulated digital injectors (fuel rails etc. as installed by Crewe from 1994 onwards). | ||
| Mark Aldridge Prolific User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 152 Registered: 10-2008 |
Bob, the su pump, 4carb system on V12 Jaguar saloons 1974) has a return system to the tank which when the return changeover valve fails effectively pumps the contents of one tank into the other which was probably full already !!!! My dislike of SU pumps stems from seal failures which literally emptied 1/2 tank of fuel into the boot over night and we still cannot understand why the car did not explode when I opened the boot and the boot light switch triggered. Must have been lucky it did not spark. Hence my choice of Facet pumps. I have had SU seals fail on 6 pumps over the years, one at only 2 years old; one mechanical coil burnout . Mark | ||
| Bob uk Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.80 |
I have heard the term vapour lock many times and I am not sure how this could happen. If the fuel from the pump turns to vapour then When the float drops the pressure will drop and the volute spring will push the pump diaphragm back, the points wíll close and the pump will suck and so on. If the suction side is obstructed then a so called vapour lock can occur. To check remove inlet pipe from the tank at the pump and petrol should pi55 out fast. There is a filter in the tank drain plug. The next filter is in the can. The filter if changed must be very free flowing. In the UK dirty petrol doesn't happen so the filter could be left out. The pump is a pusher pump. The position of the pump is low, the pump is gravity fed. The pump being away from the tank under the front seat away from the exhaust and wheel spray, relies on freé flow from the tank. I have seen many modified fuel systems which have problems that are mysterious and due to the modification, which can be difficult to find. Altering restrictor size is a famous one. I have only worked one one Daimler Double Six with 4 strombergs. All the rest were either E types or fuel injected. However I claim immunity from prosecution because of the strombergs (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 3094 Registered: 4-2003 |
Bob, Troublesome vapour locks are usually, if not always, on the feed side of the pump. In that case the pump tries to make a depression on the tank side of the pump to suck gaseous vapour rather than liquid and it simply cavitates. That is usually caused by a fuel line poorly positioned near to an exhaust system. Vapourisation on the pressure side of the pump is rarely a problem as it purges itself as you describe. Recirculating fuel systems do help with the feed-side vapourisation as the fuel is kept cool rather than heating up at a hotspot. | ||
| Chris Buckenham Experienced User Username: chris_buckenham Post Number: 44 Registered: 6-2012 |
 | ||
| Bob uk Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.90 |
Richard, In my vision of the SY fuel system The feed line is part of the fuel tank and the pump has an amount of petrol pushing due to gravity upon the inlet of the pump as soon as the diaphragm moves and increases the volume the petrol will move fast to fill the pump chamber, because it has both gravity and air pressure forcing the petrol into the pump. A vapour lock in the feed to the pump makes me suggest restricted feed to the pump. Which is why Paul Yorke first mentioned about restricted feeds. I am suggesting that because RR sell cars world wide,RR would have tested the fuel system in very hot places. Any sign of vapour locking ( which in 5O years of spanner twirling I have never seen) would have been sorted before the car was offered for sale. Petrol has changed since 1965 and sometimes I think it isn't actually petrol, I think it smells different. I doubt that this would make it vapour lock prone. I dislike the facet pump because since investigating facet pumps and actually seen one, felt it smelt it and heard it. Plus the hot rod guys won't fit facet because they are noisy poorly made and simply just not good enough. The hot rod guys go Bosch or SU for electric or AC Delco for mechanical pumps. Or Heaton autovacs. If a metered return is fitted then an SU pump will Work harder. The amount of return can only be small otherwise fuel starvation will occur. On mechanical pumps the return is there because the speed is not constant and the pump can be affected by under bonnet temperatures. However some older mechanical pumps didn't have a return. Injection systems have a return to keep the fuel rail cool and on some cars if the car is ccontinually run with low fuel in the tank will damage the fuel injectors and the regulator eventually.( Vauxhall cavalier) My conclusion is that the importance of free flow to the pump is paramount. So any pump troubles check fuel flow. Swirl pots. Strickly speaking a swirl pot spins liquid as if flows through it. Range Rover used one in the VMF system. The speed of the flow is high. The SU can't go that fast. The way I suggest is to suck the fuel into the bottom of a cclosed can and out of the top. The larger volume of the can causes the fuel to slow down and any debris drops to the bottom of the can. Once in a while clean the can out. The glass bowl on ac Delco mechanical pumps did the same. The resistance of the coil in a SU pump is in parallel with a swamp resistor wound with the coil. The capacitor and the resistance of the coil and swamp resistor are a tuned circuit. Which is to minimise the arcing at the points. If the swamp resistor is blown because the points are closed to long because the feed is obstructed then when the pump is rebuilt the points will burn out. Air pressure raises the vapour point and vacuum lowers the vapour point, so an obstructed feed will have a vacuum...... (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 668 Registered: 1-2008 |
My understanding of vapour lock is that it is a carb problem. With fuel filling the float chamber all is well for a cold/warm/hot start. However in excessively hot conditions the extra heat coming up from the engine can cause a significant quantity of this fuel to evaporate until there isn't enough to feed the main jet. On such cars the (often mechanical) pump has to fill the chamber before the car will start. Even our RR/Bs will need a few seconds for the electric pump to do this. On SRH24568 this means a petrol cold start - as opposed to LPG - means a quick flick of the key followed by listening for the pump to stop clicking to signify the chambers are now full. After this she will usually start on the subsequent attempt. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1070 Registered: 6-2009 |
Jan, In most instances when people are talking about vapor lock they're referring to precisely the issue you identify. There is also the issue of modern fuels boiling in the fuel tank as well. When that happens you can end up with issues with an SU fuel pump getting fuel moving. Gary Phipps, a member of the RROC-US, has just written extensively on these topics with lots of data collection from his cars over several different trips and ambient temperature conditions. I don't know whether they'll be published as an article or not, but the information has been presented in a series of posts on the US forums. I believe a technical article may be in the offing. Brian | ||
| Bob uk Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.73 |
It appears from research that the petrol in USA varies from state to state and is different from European petrol. Boiling petrol in carbs can happen however this will cause the carb float to drop and the SU pump will send cold petrol to the carbs. Fuel boiling in the tank I have never seen on any car and in the UK 30c is a heat wave. If the petrol boils in the tank then no matter what fuel system is used there will be a problem. The SU double pumper has its own back up pump. Unfortunately the flaw in the plan is that if one side fails the is no way to know unless one does a complicated check. So if a switch is fitted so that the pump sides can be turned off independently then a simple check from the seat can be used. Or if a led bulb is connected to the switched side of the pump coil and the other side connected to a iignition live feed then when the points open the led bulb will lit via the coils earth. The coil is in series with the led limiting the current to the led. Led are polarity conscious and I can't remember what side the small k goes to. If both leads flash then both pumps are working. Leds are in loads of broken electronics and Christmas lights. I have a box of 200 plus pulled from junk. Only a small wire is needed. The vents. There are two usually. The important one is the small nipple at the diaphragm end. This vents the back of the diaphragm, any petrol in the vent means split diaphragm. If this vent is blocked air will stop the diaphragm moving fast. So slow pump check vent. The pipe must be fitted else damp and debris will be sucked in and out eventually rusting the pump. The pipe can be anything suitable such as screen wash tube. The other end is pushed in to the chassis to keep water out. The tube could go through the floor with the little wire for the leds. The other vent is sometimes not fitted. This vent has no volume changes and is to vent ozone created by the points. If fitted it also needs a tube. Which is handy for running the little wire for the led to inside the car. That way no holes drilled in the cap. If screen wash hose is not RR enough. Use diesel injector leak off rubber pipe. Or dizzy vacuum hose. Burst pressure must be at least 0.25 psi. The curved bracket protects the pumps and can be extended should the conditions be challenging. My pumps have injector leak off hoses for Peugeot diesels. It has a woven fabric covering that's looks very period. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1475 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Bob, About a decade ago, the NSW Branch of the RROC[Australia] organised a visit to the Caltex Refinery at Kurnell in Sydney where one of their technical staff gave a detailed presentation on what constitutes petrol and diesel fuels [as an aside, my second son was a shift supervisor on the catalytic cracker at Kurnell until the closure of this refinery was announced late last year and he transferred to the Caltex Brisbane refinery]. To summarise this presentation, petrol[gasoline] is a complex blend of various aromatic compounds extracted from crude oil after processing through the catalytic cracker and the blend constantly varies depending on climatic conditions and where the fuel is going to be sold. Winter blend fuel has highly volatile constituents that readily vapourise at low temperatures but are unsuitable for use in summer as they are more prone to causing vapour locks. Summer fuels are the reverse where less volatile constituents are used to minimise vapour locks. On top of this, the energy content of the fuel is also controlled to minimise variations in fuel consumption from the use of modern engine management systems which can adjust fuel injection quantities to maximise power output whilst minimising fuel consumption. This is why users of ethanol blend fuels experience an increase in fuel consumption over non-ethanol fuels. Ethanol has a high octane rating but a lower energy content than other octane boosting additives. Basic pump technology 101 - pumps pressurise fluids better than they suck fluids especially ones with high volatility that vapourise readily when the external pressure is reduced. This is one of the reasons pumps can cavitate in service causing loss of efficiency and possibly destruction of the pump due to erosion of the pump casing and moving internal components from collapsing vapour bubbles. I have experienced mechanical fuel pumps losing prime on hot summer days in outback NSW, the Northern Territory and Western Australia due to fuel vapourisation caused by the pump suction when trying to start the engine in ambient temperatures of 40+ degrees Celsius. The usual cure was to empty a container of water over the fuel pump and carburettor, allowing the water to partially evaporate to cool the pump, carburettor and adjacent fuel line from the tank before starting the engine. Modern recirculating electric fuel pumps have eliminated this problem. I have never experienced fuel boiling in the fuel tank but have noticed significant losses due to increased evaporation rates if the vehicle was left parked in the sun for several days. As a further aside, petrol sniffing has been a serious social problem in certain communities in remote locations due to the properties of some of the additives present in normal petrol[gas]. BP have produced a special blend known as Opal for distribution in these regions which has dramatically reduced the incidence of petrol sniffing: http://www.opalfuel.com.au/page.cfm/what-is-opal/information-on-opal-fuel | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 671 Registered: 1-2008 |
Bob: There have been significant problems with the pump 'gas' (colonial speak for petrol) in the USA in recent years. This is due to a federal law requiring that all such fuel contains not less than 15% bioethanol for environmental reasons. That's why the pumps show an 'E' followed by a number on each pump. E15 for 15% up to E85 for 85% ethanol. This has cost the petrochemicals industry $$millions$$ in claims for engine or fuel system damage to many thousands of 'older' cars. How, or even if, this applies to pre-sellout RR/Bs I couldn't say. Similar laws are in place for diesel fuel where the ethanol is replaced by vegetable oil based biodiesel. Fortunately most older diesel engines will run happily on pure veg oil straight from the supermarket (Perkins engines not included) or on dewatered, filtered used oil (often called chip fat). On later engines it's important to use only correctly made biodiesel as DI/common rail systems aren't compatible with straight veg oil (SVO) and significant damage can be experienced. Similarly it's best to see a Bosch or any official licensed copy injector pump fitted as other makes may work, but all to often break down quite soon after starting to use veg. On most engines it's strongly advisable to add up to 20% unleaded - 5% minimum - to keep the viscosity down to that of diesel fuel (called DERV in the UK) to prevent excess pressures in the injector pump that can blow out the seals! | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 3095 Registered: 4-2003 |
Certainly not in this Colony. Ask the Americans if they agree to be labelled Colonials for that matter. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 3096 Registered: 4-2003 |
ps: if you look up Colonial specifications of Bentleys from 1946 to 1980, Colonial bits like suspension parts are usually Home (UK), North America (same as home or mushier) or Colonial (rugged, mainly for Australia, India, NZ and Africa. Harvey-Bailey copied Colonial springs from SY cars along with a Turbo R antiroll bar to offer an expensive Handling Kit. Gas ? Only in the USA can a liquid be named a gaseous fluid, yet at least sometimes it still attracts the quaint name gasoline over there. Here in Australia we are still simply petrol heads. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1072 Registered: 6-2009 |
Jan, Please find a single case where any of the petrochemical refiners have been successfully sued for engine damage on the basis of ethanol as an additive. `They` are endlessly offered up without citation. The urban legend machine just won't let ethanol as a fuel additive be. It was in use here in the states for decades before laws were passed to require labeling its presence when above 5%. Old cars were not, and are not, dying by the millions secondary to ethanol issues. There are the few here and there that still had tank coatings or "old rubber," and most of those issues arise because of overly eager revivals from the dead. If you've actually been driving any old car in the USA you've long ago replaced the "rubber parts" of your system with materials that are ethanol tolerant. I have no great love of ethanol as an additive, but it's blamed for virtually every problem you can imagine and there's virtually no "hard data" that indicates it is the culprit. Brian | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 672 Registered: 1-2008 |
US citizens have the advantage of 'Class Action Suits' such that a bunch of them can pool together their money and evidence to indicate that the problems of one are shared by the many. In the UK that is not the case and Big Business is often all too happy to spend ££many thousands££ on a single case to put off anyone else wanting redress for damages/injuries. It can save them huge wads of cash in the long run. As many old(er) cars may still be running on rubber components that were fitted decades ago (not tyres, of course) the possibility of ethanol intolerant hoses/seals is real. The main problem with ethanol is its ability to truly mix with water, when petrol just floats on top of it, which can then be carried into the rest of the fuel system. There are a few ways of ensuring that the water content is under 1%, but they are all require energy and therefore extra expense. There was a time when I was considering producing high %age ethanol as a fuel, but (apart from the legal standpoint) it seemed too much hassle for so little reward. | ||
| Bob Reynolds Prolific User Username: bobreynolds Post Number: 173 Registered: 8-2012 |
Regarding the SU double pumper: As I understand it, both coils and contacts are wired in parallel with each other, so you would think that they should both work together. But it seems to me that as the fuel chamber empties, one set of contacts will close before the other set, and that will always be the same set of contacts. That will pull the diaphram away and the cycle will repeat. So the other coil will hardly ever get used. The other coil only gets a look-in if the first coil fails to operate, or if the fuel flow is so great that one coil cannot handle the demand on its own. Is this the way it works in practice? | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 3097 Registered: 4-2003 |
Quite wrong. Each half has its own set of points or electronic quivalent and is electrically independent.
Effectively true. As soon as one half retracts, the chamber pressure reduces and the other half activates. If one half is dodgy, it may work after a kick from the other or never at all. The motor will still be 100% despite such a defect until both halves fail. Hence the reason for the defined 12,000 mile service requirement to test the pump assembly by removing the electrical contact from each half in turn to check that the fuel pressure remains with just one half functional. RT. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1281 Registered: 6-2006 |
At each annual service or (bi-annual) undo the fuel pipe to the carburettor. Fit a hose over the outlet and put the other end in a petrol can. Now go to the pumps and remove the wire from one end. Using a battery give each end (one side at a time) a feed and earth. This will operate and test each side of the pump separately. When the car is cruising at high speeds both ends are working and shares the workload keeping things cooler. If only one side is working when you test it, try cleaning the points and lubricating the pivot pins. Most cars that FTP due to pump failure is because many cars are already running on only one side. Vapour lock is when there is enough pressure in the float chamber to stop new fuel entering it. Air trapped in the chambers or in the fuel line can do it. It doesn't seem feasible but it only takes a little pressure to hold up the needle valve. Wrongly assembled float chamber seals on SU's are the prime cause. On Shadow II's the float chamber breather pipes drain tubes used to fill with fuel and also cause vapour locking. A mod was issued to cure this problem. With the needles stuck closed the pressure from the boiling fuel also forces the fuel down the the inlet manifolds and into the cylinder bores. This washes the residual oil off the bores and rings leading to more major problems. Main symptoms are when stopping with a very hot engine for a short period (fuel stop, getting a paper) on return to the vehicle it will crank for ages without catching. Wide open throttle may help. Tapping the carb float chambers or pushing the float pins down. Waiting for another 10 minutes. Often after waiting you will hear the pumps give their staccato burst as you would get after the car had been sitting for weeks. You may get a burst of black smoke from the exhaust on start up. Occasionally poor running/misfiring for a short while (10's of seconds)is experienced. This should not be confused with very slow cranking starter motors on Cloud V8 and Shadows and non starting when hot. If they start as you give up and release the key, that is usually a starter issue. Unless, of course, you are lucky enough to have both problems!  | ||
| Bob Reynolds Prolific User Username: bobreynolds Post Number: 174 Registered: 8-2012 |
"Quite wrong. Each half has its own set of points or electronic quivalent and is electrically independent." Yes, well that's what I meant by being connected in parallel. They are not connected together inside the pump, but both sides go to 12v and earth, so are in parallel with each other. So the first coil that operates actually pulls in the second diaphram and operates the other set of contacts? | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 3100 Registered: 4-2003 |
Yep. That is, provided the second set of points/electronoc equivalent works as tested in Paul's (detailed) and my (very brief) descriptions above. RT. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1282 Registered: 6-2006 |
I think they used to operate sequentially but SU have reduced their range and new ones operate together. It may be the other way around though? | ||
| Bob uk Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.88 |
The double pumper has 4 chambers. common inlet from tank common outlet to carbs. One pump chamber for each coil. When the pumps are live. Both sides pull their diaphragms against the spring until the points toggle. This draws petrol into both pumping chambers. The springs then both push fuel to the carbs. One diaphragm will return quicker which will toggle those set of points closed. This will work that side of the pump which will pressurise that side of the pump. The other side will then catch up. The two diaphragms will roughly work together. Depending when the carbs need fuel and which diaphragm has returned. If the points close the diaphragm moves regardless of what the other side is doing. The return springs will be slightly different. So one side maybe lazier than the other. A quick way to check both sides is to disconnect and start car until the carbs run out, and connect one side at a time and hear the tick. The electronic type do not like careless jump starting and are not repairable at the side of the road. So the older points type does have its merits. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Bob Reynolds Prolific User Username: bobreynolds Post Number: 176 Registered: 8-2012 |
In hindsight, it might have been a good idea if SU had replaced just one set of points with the electronic equivalent. That would have given the best of both worlds. If the points stop working, the electronics can take over; and if the electronics blow, you've still got the mechanical points that work. | ||
| Bob uk Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.78 |
Bob that is a good idea best of both worlds. I put the interaction between the two sides badly. Imagine two separate pumps with y pieces to connect both pumps to the tank and the carb. The Y pieces are the common chambers like a double pumper's common chambers. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 676 Registered: 1-2008 |
One of each sounds like a Crewe way of tackling the 'problem'. Can't think of any reason that SU would do it other than as a special RR/B order. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 3102 Registered: 4-2003 |
Nope. Wake up. Jaguars and quite a few others have the same twin pumps. XJs with twin fuel tanks have two single SU pumps whilst single-tank Jags of the era share the same superior pump with the Silver Shadow for a start. There are many more makes of cars out there so equipped with that SU unit. | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 677 Registered: 1-2008 |
I am awake: I was referring to the non-existant double pump with contacts on one end and electronics on the other. I know the V12 Jags were fitted with the same model pump. I used to own one. | ||
| Bob uk Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.82 |
Land Rover used double pumpers on the 6 cylinder safari models. Armstrong Silly used them on Star Sapphire. Many older bigger brit cars had doubles. The electronic version is more reliable and is marketed by emphasizing the reliability of electronics and the PERCEIVED unreliability of mechanical points. True the electronic type is more reliable than points. But given that the points type go for 100k and 15 years then the difference is academic. I personally wouldn't bother fitting electronics, because most times a quick stoning of the points and it's business as usual. I never worry about stuff like this because pump trouble doesn't damage the car and the AA will sort it out and get me home. The hardest part of fixing the pumps is getting them off the car. The above is double academic to me because I have lpg and the car starts from cold on lpg. The car has not had petrol for 10 years. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 3103 Registered: 4-2003 |
Agreed, Bob, but I would be desperately disappointed with such a short pump life. I replaced the pump halves on my R-Type in 1979 as the insulation on the solenoids was suspect although they were still working fine after 25 years, and now 35 years later they are still fine with just regular checks at service. The points have not even needed adjusting at servicing. The ones on my 1972 T-Series are now 42 yeas old. I shall replace all the diaphragms shortly as they are surely past their use-by dates. I would suggest that those flexible parts are the most likely to need replacement at some stage. Electronics are of course reliable, but semiconductors do go off over time. 30 years for a semiconductor is about right. Remember that coolant probe amplifier and the diode board on a Silver Shadow or SZ for that matter: they are known to fail after around 25 years like many semiconductors. RT. | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 678 Registered: 1-2008 |
Having absolutely no history with my Shadow I can't say whether the pump has been touched by any previous owner, but as mentioned before, I have merely stoned the contacts flat to keep her running. As the pump will see less and less use in future due to the LPG setup I think two sets of contacts and capacitors would be wise investment before I put her back on the road. | ||
| Bob uk Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.85 |
I think my pumps will eventually pack up with stiff diaphragms or dirty points. I shall let you know in 10 years. If nothing went wrong then one wouldn't have a hobby. Expecting any fuel pump to last more than 20 years is pushing it. My Jeep one is 21 years old and I can hear the in tank pump whining which started 3 years ago. Electronics seem to suddenly just stop. Hopefully it's cheap. The problem with repairing electronics is that a discrete device fails because another discrete device is still working but overloading the first. On Morris minors the SU fuel pump is a puller pump on the bulk head. Behind the glove box is the mounting bolts for the pump. I had a Minor which once in a while would play up, if I thumped the glove box the pump would tick and away we go for a couple of months. I fixed it properly when I sold it. Electronic SU is a bit like electronic dizzys. I have changed many sets of ignition points, without problems in minutes normally. Points last ages so fitting electronic ignition because of the hassle of fitting points is daft if it's a hobby car. I know of the other benefits but often the smoother running and better fuel economy doesn't materialize. Usually the kit is fitted in place of points that are badly adjusted so the car runs better not because of the electronics but because the ignition has just been serviced. My car starts first time on points Electronic ignition can't make it start better. Electronic SUs don't pump fuel better. A big service on a Shadow is hours of work so including a pump service adds little to the work and it's a hobby and patience is a virtue. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Bob Reynolds Prolific User Username: bobreynolds Post Number: 180 Registered: 8-2012 |
In the 70's, there was an electronic ignition kit caled 'Sparkrite' which retained the points for triggering. The beauty of this system is that it had a switch on it so you could instantly change back to the conventional ignition in the event of problems or failure of the electronics. I fitted one of these to my car and there was a slight difference between the two systems, but not much. The points didn't wear out or go out of adjustment, because they were only used to trigger the electronics and only carried milliamps. It was a very good system, and I would fit one to the RR today if they were still available. The reason why I haven't fitted electronic ignition to my Shadow is because the conventional system is easy to diagnose and repair by the side of the road. Electronics can fail completely without warning. But I have fitted an electronic fuel pump. A fuel pump failure is not as sudden as an ignition failure. The engine will cough and splutter before it finally gives up, so you usually have time to get off the road and park it out of the way. Also, there are 2 separate pump units, and you would have to be particularly unlucky for both to fail at the same time in the middle of a journey. My Dad had 2 Morris Minors in the 60's and I well remember him breaking down all the time and having to get out, open the bonnet, and bash the fuel pump. He kept a small hammer under the bonnet just for this purpose! He kept cleaning the points, but it still happened. This was a running joke at the time, about Morris Minors. | ||
| Bob uk Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.92 |
The reason cleaning the pump points didn't entirely solve the problem was because the toggle bit needed adjusting usually by less than half a turn. I remember the tac systems one of these would run a SU pump. Also a relay driven by the pump points would work. But adding more stuff is maybe not a good idea. Tac = transistor assisted contacts. I fitted a tac to a Rover P6 V8 and it made no difference. When I converted to lpg the lpg forum said that my Shadow would need electronic ignition and high performance plug leads. Or the car will misfire and not even start. I was also told that petrol starts would be needed. The car starts first time on lpg on points and 40 year old plug leads. The design of the bit that puts the gas in the induction meant that lpg could go down the breather into the crankcase. So I sold the bit on eBay and redesigned the layout and straight away the car ran right. The trick is to put the lpg in the induction next to the carb mouths NOT between the big hose and the choke housing with the breather next to it. It's simply 15mm copper pipe and brass fittings. One forum guy got upset because he was selling the bits I sold on eBay. Like a lot of car stuff some overcomplicate things. This attracts the dodgy science. Still it keeps some permanently baffled. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Mark Aldridge Prolific User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 158 Registered: 10-2008 |
Just had a 200 mile recovery in the mulsanne after the Pierburg pump expired. Have just ordered a Facet pump. Failure was at traffic lights on a main junction in Southport and some lads pushed it to the side of the road . Unfortunateley there were double yellow lines and despite a notice in the car and warning triangle , a"VERY NICE " Traffic warden awarded me a Penalty notice for illegal parking !! Next time it can stay blocking a major junction until the recovery truck arrives ( 2 Hours ! ) Oh to live in England !! Mark | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 510 Registered: 5-2012 |
Mark You have my absolute sympathy. It's so annoying when common sense goes out the window. Would there be any grounds for contesting the ticket. Geoff. | ||
| Bob uk Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.90 |
My advice is to pay the fine and then appeal. The adjudicator will be swayed by the fact that the fine has been paid therefore the appellant is of good character. A failure to proceed is grounds for appeal. Take proof of the recovery with you. I would take the pump apart and see if it can be diy repaired using the manual. If the pierburg can be repaired at a reasonable cost, then refit keep the facet just in case the diy repair fails later. The pump is a rotary vane pump and very simple. Rotten bad luck you got a shinny buttons warden. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 685 Registered: 1-2008 |
My advice is the opposite to Bob's do not pay and then appeal. Your payment will be taken as an admission of guilt. Appeal first using the instructions on the penalty form. As said; a photocopy of the breakdown service's receipt should be enough proof that the car was not parked, but actually undriveable. By the way: How goes the steam fayre and R/C rally since they were moved from RAF Woodvale to the Victoria Park? I only got to go a couple of times before the asbestos was 'discovered'. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 3110 Registered: 4-2003 |
Please, please cancel the order for the Facet pump. I know that a bargain feels good for a while, but they are really nasty and exceptionally cheaply made. Just look at one for a minute and you will see what I mean. I came across one last month, and it is now sitting forever on the laughs shelf next to the Peter Brock Energy Polarizer. Futhermore, they have a reputation for being noisy and unreliable. Pierburg are very reasonably priced, are far superior in every respect, and don't need a mounting kit. Worst case, order a Pierburg from here in Austrlaia (100 in stock) and have it landed in the UK for less than just £150. RT. | ||
| Mark Aldridge Prolific User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 159 Registered: 10-2008 |
Hi all, Yes I will be appealing the penalty notice, although I suspect with little effect. Southport has a reputation with parking wardens which does nothing to increase its appeal as a holiday resort ! However my 94 year old inlaws have lived there happily for many years. Jan I have not been to Woodvale for about 30 years as I have not been in the area on the rally weekend. Richard both FS and Introcar list the Pierburg as NLA and the Facet as a replacement. This does not concern me as my S1, Shadow, MG and Austin Healey Sprite all have Facet pumps as do my sons Jag and Morris Minor and I have had no problems in 10 years and 100k+ miles. The pierburg is undoubtedly a quieter unit, but I can order Facet from our local stockist for next day delivery and hence time off road is minimalized.I have used these pumps for years both on my road cars and for 8 seasons on my track car with no issues, but if it proves unsatisfactory on the Mulsanne, then importing one from Australia is the answer. Thanks Mark | ||
| Mark Aldridge Prolific User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 160 Registered: 10-2008 |
The parking ticket has been withdrawn, common sense has prevailed ! hoping for a fine weekend so that I can change the pump Mark | ||
| Mark Aldridge Prolific User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 161 Registered: 10-2008 |
Facet pump fitted, noise cannot be heard in car and is no more significant than the whine that the Pierburg had outside. A fuel pressure regulator is unnecessary, as pressure at carbs is 3 psi with a very strong return flow to the tank. Pump used is Facet 480532. which is the same as used on my S1 and Shadow 1. My son uses this pump on his cars so we only need keep 1 spare in stock. Cost was £ 56 . Mark | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 658 Registered: 5-2012 |
Mark I just wanted to check if the Facet 480532 you fitted last October is still giving good service. I am having a problem with a slowly deteriorating lumpy tickover on my 74 SY1. I think I have discovered the problem. The float chamber on the carb furthest from the fuel pump was only half full when I checked it last weekend - well below the level the float would need to be to close the petrol inlet valve. On checking the pump the inlet flexible fuel line was wet. I am in the process of replacing it but I suspect the main fault is with the pump rather than the leaky fuel line. I was thinking of reconditioning the SU pump but it occurs to me in doing so I would only be replacing the diaphragm and seals. How much better to renew the whole lot i.e. fit a new pump. Hence my question. Regards Geoff | ||
| Mark Aldridge Prolific User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 199 Registered: 10-2008 |
Geoff,the Mulsanne has covered 4000 miles since October with no fuel problems at all.The pump on the S1 and the Shadow 1, have been on 10 years with no problems. If you fit it to the Shadow 1, you will have to fit a regulator to reduce the pressure to approx. 3psi. I use a basic Filter King pressure reg, set to 3psi. Have you checked the fuel filters? Is it possible to remove the carb filters without taking the metal air feeds to the carb mouths off? My filters are coming up to 24k miles but I have just changed the rear filter and this was clean after 24 k. If you pm your email, I will photo the installation of the pump and regulator on my Shadow (1975) at the weekend. Mark | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 659 Registered: 5-2012 |
Mark On the SY1, the carb filters can indeed be replaced without removing the air ducts. It's just a case of disconnecting the fuel line to each carb and removing the float chamber covers. I have replaced both of mine recently. It turns out the fuel leak on my car is coming from the actual pump and not the flexible feed hose as I had first suspected, so a new fuel pump is now a definite. I did not realise the Facet needed a regulator as well. I was going to order one but now I'm thinking it may be much simpler to buy a lower output universal pump. I guess I need to research this further before deciding on what option to take. I will gratefully decline your offer of photos of your installation. I really do not want to put you through that trouble whilst I am still undecided. I really appreciate your help. Best Regards Geoff. | ||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.121.68 |
Geoff. I would simply diy overhaul the SU pumps. There is a plethora of detail on the net and the parts are easy to get. Do check the flow from the tank to the pump. If the petrol being used is clean then the fuel filter near the tank can be omitted If the element is removed then the filter can Will work like a swirl pot. Or bypass it. Also remove the petrol tank drain plug, and clean the filter attached to it. The flexible hoses should be replaced with hose marked as fuel hose. Smith petroflex is a SS braided hose that can be clamped with supplied hose clips and looks proper RR. The SU fuel pump is reliable and lasts 100k and 15 years. So do a proper job and forget for many years. Electronic versions of the SU have now been around for 20 odd years. They are a little bit more reliable. However they do go wrong and not so easy to fix at roadside with a tap from a hammer shaft. IMO the advantage of electronic is overrated, because the points pump lasts well in the first place. Do remember Shadows are becoming expensive and the most original cars will be worth the most. Plus a diy overhaul of the tank and pump costs beer money. Note I suspect that only one side of the pump is working. To check disconnect each end in turn. Sometimes if the faulty side is tapped with hammer it starts. If the good side is left disconnected the duff side can be kept running which will clean the points. If the inlet flexible is plugged then the pump can be run fast with out running the engine. This can fix the pump with out stripping the pump off the car. Also check where the petrol goes into the float bowl. Mine has little filters in the unions. Also remember that obstructed flow from tank to pump will damage the pump windings. So the flow checks are important. The fuel should flow fast if the flex is disconnected from the tank at the pump, the inlet side of the pump. After overhaul I like to bench run the pump with kerosene being pumped in a circle. Keep checking for overheating. To test according to makers standards requires an easily made test rig. See net for details. My version is a broom handle upright in a vice with a tube taped to it. The idea is to see how high the pump can pump. 27 inches springs to mind can't remember check first. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1258 Registered: 6-2009 |
Geoff, Although I've DIY overhauled my dual SU, and it's not a complex job by any means, it can take a while to get the parts here in the US depending on whether anyone has them on the shelf. It appears that Victoria British has the EPK300 kits in stock (shown as #2 on this catalog page) for $50 US each, which is about what I paid for them in 2009. Another really excellent resource, whether you intend to DIY or want Dave DuBois to do it for you, is his technical articles page. A simply wonderful resource. If you're in a pinch for time, or just want to decide whether you want to rebuild the dual SU at your leisure, the Facet Gold-Flo 476087E or Airtex E8016S pumps, which will also work for Cloud/S era cars, do not require the use of a pressure regulator and both deliver a more than adequate fuel flow rate and will work in either a former SU or Pierburg application. I know individuals who've been using each of these pumps in place of the former dual SU for very long periods of time. I'll also send you two technical articles written by a friend and RROC-US member, Gary Phipps, on how the SU fuel pump works and how to test it. Brian | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 661 Registered: 5-2012 |
Hi Brian I took on board your earlier comments about the efficacy of using a reconditioning kit for the original SU pump and will be taking that route. However, as an interim measure I today fitted an Airtex pump as documented in your resource file. While checking out the NAPA site I found that NAPA E8902 was identical to the E8016S except both inlet and outlet ports were 5/16" as opposed to the 1/8" inlet port on the E8106S. I therefore went for the 8902. Fitting has been really easy since my car is the SY1. Everything is in place except the fuel hoses. I had a problem since the steel feed pipes on the Rolls are 3/8". I'm going to heat the 5/16" hose in boiling water tomorrow, to hopefully soften the rubber enough to allow me to push it on to the 3/8" pipe. This should get my car back on the road so I can recondition and test the SU pump at leisure. Many thanks for the two articles on all the other help you have given. Regards Geoff | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 662 Registered: 5-2012 |
Mark and Bob Thanks for your comments. They have really helped me to decide what route to take. As I mentioned above, fitting the Airtex pump now means I can sort out the SU pump at leisure. Best Regards Geoff | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1259 Registered: 6-2009 |
Geoff, In addition to heat softening the fuel hose a bit, you might also consider applying a very slight amount of lubricant to the outside of the fuel pipes. Since this is fuel hose a very thin wipe of petroleum jelly on the outside of the fuel pipe should greatly ease the side-on process. I've done the same sort of thing with water-based lubricant when trying to slide other types of hoses on to their respective pipes. Just don't forget to put the hose clamps on to the hoses first!! (Been there, done that). Brian, who would love to see a couple of photographs of your finished result | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 663 Registered: 5-2012 |
Hi Brian I used a smear of dish detergent in addition to the heating. I managed to push the hoses on to the pipes a full 3/4" without too much force. The picture below shows the current state of play. I need to tidy things up a bit and replace the stone guards, once I've finished road testing. Everything seems ok - no leaks or overflowing float chambers and the car drives ok. But here's a thing. When I turn the ignition on I can feel a slight vibration from the pump, like a motor running continuously. It is inaudible. Is this how modern fuel pumps work? I am used to the SU pump which is silent with the occasional click.  Geoff | ||
| Mark Aldridge Prolific User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 200 Registered: 10-2008 |
Geoff, this is normal, but the vibration and any noise can be eliminated by mounting the pump on a plate and then mounting the plate to the body with a flexible rubber bush between the body and the plate. Mark | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 664 Registered: 5-2012 |
Mark Many thanks. The vibration is so slight it cannot be heard or felt in the car. It is only when a touch the unit that it can be felt. I expected it to cut out once fuel pressure had been reached. I obviously need to read up how these pumps work. Thanks for your help - it's reassuring to know the pump is exhibiting normal behaviour. Regards Geoff | ||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.121.29 |
Overhauling the SU pumps at a leisurely pace, means you can paint them. The valve chest in the middle is bare aluminum. The solenoids are satin black. Also the breather pipes. Diesel injector leak off pipes work well. The temporary pump fitted is small enough to keep in the car just in case the overhauled SU do go wrong. I have overhauled a few SU pumps. Normally they are fine straightaway. But the odd one needed adjustment after not many miles. (Message approved by david_gore) |
