| Author | Message | ||
     Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1235 Registered: 4-2003 |
Yesterday I contacted Castrol directly concerning Castrol RR363 at the UK worldwide distribution depot and also at head office. It is now sold out at that depot, but new supplies are expected soon. It is still in good supply at the sales outlets, and only the depot has no stock temporarily. My contact confirmed emphatically that RR363 production will never be discontinued. The current sales rate is a short-term surprise to them. It seems that our websites have done no harm to sales as more people now realise the importance of using RR363 and are shifting to its use. They will reply by email with locations where RR363 is still in stock and with a schedule for the next production and supply into the depot. The technical support department advised me that RR363 has added lubrication properties over DOT3/4, and that they are thoroughly aware of its importance for our cars. Castrol does not manufacture RR363 itself I found out, but subcontracts it. The frame contract with the sub-supplier is under revision to allow for increased production as the demand for RR363 has risen sharply in recent months, exceeding their projections markedly. The manager also promised that should things change, they would certainly consider licencing production to a new boutique sub-supplier such as Penrite for example. RT. (Message edited by Richard Treacy on 18 May 2007) | ||
| Robert in Spain Unregistered guest Posted From: 108.red-80-36-61.staticip.rima-tde.net |
These are really good news (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Dr. Omar M. Shams New User Username: omar Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2009 |
I have been running my 1978 Silver Wraith II on a blend of Dot 4 brake fluid and 10% Castor oil for the last 6 months and am very pelased with the results. I have covered 2000 Km and the car runs like a dream. In fact it runs better than my Silver ShadowII did which used RR363 exclusively. In fairness, I have overhauled the hydraulics on the wraith II compared to the ShadowII. I live in a hot country, so I cannot advise how the oil will behave in colder climes. | ||
| Jan Forrest Frequent User Username: got_one Post Number: 66 Registered: 1-2008 |
"You took the words right out of my mouth" Dr. Shams! (Although I doubt it was while you were you were kissing me  )... I've found that the Dot4/castor oil mix to give an excellent response both for the brakes and the suspension. I got my information from here: Where did you hear of it? As is pointed out on the site: a greater percentage of castor oil can be used in warmer climes, but tends to cause 'clumping' of the fluid in cold weather. Cost savings alone can be very attractive. I can purchase 4.5 litre (1 Imperial gallon) for GBP(£)20 - GBP(£)14 for the Dot 4 and GBP(£)6 for the castor oil - compared to GBP(£)60 for 4 litres of RR363! Ps. "Castrol" is a contraction of castor oil - often the lubricant of choice in total loss lubrication systems in pre-war (WWI that is!) racing cars. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1692 Registered: 4-2003 |
Please note that straight castor oil and Castrol R are intrinsically unsuitable as additives to DOT fluids. Even the Castrol RR363 data sheets now reveal, for legal reasons, that RR363 contains ethoxylated propoxylated castor oil. Straight castor oil will not combine with DOT3, 3/4, 4 or 5.1 to form a stable mix. Ethoxylated propoxylated castor oil is chemically modified castor oil, specifically altered to make it miscible with alcohol- and glycol-based products like DOT 3/4. If you must experiment at your own risk, and beware of the implications of a safety-related failure caused by the wilful application of an unapproved concoction, then ethoxylated propoxylated castor oil is available from base chemical suppliers to the cosmetics industry. It took Crewe no less than 9 years to be satisfied with RR363 in 1973. It was no small issue at the time. Only then did the warranty claims for seized pumps and noisy suspension rams peter out. Before then, first they used Girling Crimson, then Girling Amber, and penultimately Girling Green. While suffering Girling Green, they did dabble with simply using Castrol LMA before settling on RR363. Clearly a case or two of a year or two of success with an alternative means nothing. RT. | ||
| Jan Forrest Frequent User Username: got_one Post Number: 67 Registered: 1-2008 |
I appreciate your points, Richard, but the Citroen fraternity have been successfully using DOT4/castor oil for many years with no detectable adverse results. As the suspension/brake setup is essentially the same in the Shadows and derivatives as it is in the DS and its ilk it is only logical that the results should be the same. As for the lubricative properties of castor oil - they are at least as good as the 'package' in RR363 and it has the same lifespan - 2 years (less in very humid conditions; just like RR363). | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1693 Registered: 4-2003 |
Let's not miss the point - as the Citi guys found out the hard way (refer to the Citi publication Spheres and Gears). As they have discovered, straight castor oil is not a suitable additive. Some Citroen hopefuls are indeed hanging out, but for how long ? In the meantime, many have converted their cars to LHM components with all the perils of conversion. R. | ||
| Jan Forrest Frequent User Username: got_one Post Number: 68 Registered: 1-2008 |
Having just spent approx. GBP(£)500 on a full brake rebuild I think I'll leave the idea of an LHM conversion for the next carer of The Old Girl - after I'm dead! | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1694 Registered: 4-2003 |
Jan, I am not for a moment suggesting an LHM conversion !! For a start, it would be a nightmare to replace the accumulators, all hoses and all seals throught the braking and suspension systems to suit. I am only suggesting that if, unlike almost everyone else, you decline to use RR363, you reconsider using plain castor oil as the noble additive. At least use a compatible modified castor oil - ethoxylated propoxylated castor oil. It is produced specifically for proper mixing with such fluids, and not just for fun. Madam wouldn't like her face to end up in fatty blobs after using face cream, and our cars don't like fatty globs accumulating in precious parts of their hydraulics either. It is not expensive and is not hard to source. RT. | ||
| Dr. Omar M. Shams New User Username: omar Post Number: 4 Registered: 4-2009 |
Jan, I got the information from the same site as the one you hyperlinked. I liked your refernce to the Maetloaf track... ha ha. Rihard, I understand your perspective, but I have only embarked on this route following considerable thought. Like everyone who uses this forum, your knowledge and experience is well respected. I work with a lot of hydraulic systems and I even presented a paper at the IMechE HQ in London (circa 1993) on a subject matter related to the use of castor oil as a suitable lubricant for plunger pumps that we use in our offshore gas compression rigs. The world of castor oils is like the world of olive oil or rice or bread......... there are many many sources, combinations and types of "castor oil". The oil that I chose is refined for industrial application with a viscosity of 46 Cst at 40 Degrees C. For any degredation process to take place, there will be ample warning and plenty symptoms well in advance. I know that I will not wake up one morning to find my Silver Wraith looking like a pumpkin. If the hydraulic system will fail due to inappropriate fluid, then it will do so progressively. I am very tuned to the slightest change in "feel" and will not wish to endanger anyone by using a dangerous car. I take your point regarding the trouble Rolls-Royce went through when they "perfected" RR363, but they need to ensure that their fluid works in every application from Anchorage to Zambia and everywhere in between. I just want my oil to work in Dubai. I also don't have 20 microphones and sensors all over the car listening for the slightest squeek to condemn a proposed fluid. I am happy to put up with the odd noise (although none has manifested itself yet). In short, I want the oil to work for me under my conditions - and from what I can see - it seems to be doing that admirably. I will keep the website posted every so often. | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1111 Registered: 4-2003 |
Gor blimey it’s a bit much for an old bloke! Bring back the days when you got a can of brake fluid at the local shop, threw it in the reservoir, pumped it through until the colour coming out roughly matched that going in and then went and got stuck into a cold beer or a hot toddy depending on whether you are in Dubai or Anchorage! First for those that came in after the lights went down kinematics apparently has nothing to do with J Arthur Rank or MGM but is apparently the study of things in motion ignoring how they got to be in motion. Hang on, the pubs don’t open for another hour as I write so keep reading. When I refer to ‘things’ in motion, that includes oil. Even a kindergarden dropout like myself can follow that the ‘thicker’ the oil the slower it will ‘flow’ or kinemat (ignore that last one). I enlighten you all with this to clarify that the term Omar used, ‘CST’ does not refer to a middle eastern circumcision ritual but is actually a measure of a fluid resistance to flow, roughly its thickness). As with any measurement you need units. Drop an open bottle of RR363 on the floor and you will note that that the stuff immediately heads for the nearest original manual you have spread out on the floor, or your wife’s Cashmere sweater she dropped as she fled the garage a little while ago. This is not related to viscosity but to Murphy’s Law with which you will all be familiar. (Murphy actually held a doctorate in kinematics but more of that later!) So the viscosity unit is actually measured in centistokes, abbreviated as cSt. Now aren’t you glad I told you that! First Richard with his ethoxylated propoxylated castor oil which made me wonder what my mother gave me if I appeared as a child to be out of sorts and then Omar with his Stokes! This discussion has been going on for over thirty years engendered I am sure by the cost of RR363. Most owners (enthusiasts?) grudgingly top up their reservoirs with the stuff and as part of the ownership lore point out that the stuff is ‘specially’ made for RR’s and B’s and that is why it costs twice as much as DOT4 brake fluid which many people use with impunity. I use RR363 because Rolls-Royce said so, Castrol would not make the stuff if they weren’t convinced it was worthwhile technically (I would be surprised if they make any money with the stuff) and whilst I have to sell my body from time to time to buy parts for the car, for the amount of fluid the thing uses I reckon I can afford it! So why do we persist in second guessing the esteemed boffins of the old Factory? At the end you can run your system on distilled yak pee if you wish, it is your car and your responsibility. I have never thought of our chariots as test beds but if that is what the idea is go for it and wear any consequences. Maybe in a hundred years your great grandchildren will point to the success of the experiment you started and I will be cursed as a rabid luddite. By then of course the yak will probably be an endangered species! | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 314 Registered: 6-2006 |
"At the end you can run your system on distilled yak pee if you wish, it is your car and your responsibility." Bill, bit worried about the safety aspects of your assurance that I can run my system on yak pee - distilled or otherwise. After trying this out, I can't stress the dangers of this enough. I have almost had a heart attack - chasing the bleeders around the hillside and when you do get near enough, they are quite happy to spit at you, but unwilling to pee in my RR363 container. As for distilling it - the missus had a fit when she came in the kitchen! (just read through this, and before you think I'm going mad - when I said RR363 container - I meant an old Castrol bottle, not the reservoir!  ) (Message edited by paul_yorke on 02 May 2009) | ||
| Jan Forrest Frequent User Username: got_one Post Number: 70 Registered: 1-2008 |
Bill: I have yet to see any studies on the viscosity or lubricative qualities of yak urine so I bow to your superior knowledge in this area of human knowledge. I can say, however, that fresh yak butter will refresh aged leather in ways no other 'cream' can approach, and that rancid yak milk is good for hiding skin wrinkles. Few people will get close enough to you to actually see them  | ||
| Dr. Omar M. Shams New User Username: omar Post Number: 6 Registered: 4-2009 |
Bill, loved your post mate. Best bit was the circumcission!! that is one difficult time in a man's life best forgotten.... ooh the pain. How silly of me to forget about the Centistokes, but thanks to you everyone now knows all about viscosity. I wish RR363 was only double the cost of Dot4. If it was, everyone would be using the "correct stuff". Sadly, we live in a different country to you, and over here, we have to pay 10 times the price of Dot4 for our RR363. | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1113 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hmmm. (Stands akimbo, mouth agape, breathing with difficulty and waiting for the next one)! | ||
| Laurie Fox Frequent User Username: laurie_fox Post Number: 58 Registered: 6-2004 |
Richard What brake fluid do you use in your R Type? Regards Laurie | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1695 Registered: 4-2003 |
Laurie, I use Castrol LMA, which is just a standard DOT 3/4 fluid, for the R-Type. As the hydraulic front brakes are strictly conventional and quite understressed, any DOT 3, 3/4, 4 or 5.1 (NOT 5 - silicone) will do fine. Being drum brakes, there is very little heating of the fluid, unlike on disc brakes where the hot parts are right on the brake pistons. The temperature rating of DOT 3 is more than adequate. Of course, as opposed to Silver Shadows, there is no particular lubrication requirement. Silver Clouds are the same. However, York Motors in Sydney had a habit of fitting "Use Only RR363" labels to Silver Clouds and R-Types in the 1970s, but for no paricular technical requirement. Still, RR363 does not much harm. The downside of RR363, as any Silver Shadow owner will confirm, is that even the modified lubricant additives in RR363 tend to separate after a few years, leading to gooey deposits in the reservoirs and components. I recall some evidence of this in Tee-One Topics not so long ago. Unmodified castor oil as an additive apparently poses a far greater nuisance much earlier, and quite spectacularly as the Citroen clubs note. The problem with straight castor oil is not its lubricating properties, rather the fact that it does not form a stable mix with DOT fluids and secretly separates out of sight into those gooey deposits rather quickly. Although the cars before the Silver Shadow are far simpler and less affected by the separating of fluid ingredients, it is a marginal reason in favour of not using RR363 for those cars. RT. | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1114 Registered: 4-2003 |
Ah Richard - memories! The York Motors label I think I can explain. I used to have a bulletin from the Factory about RR363, I think directed at Shadows and lo attached was a sample of a peel-off-the-back label as you describe. I stuck one on the Bentley which still maybe there. As to 'clumping' it should not happen if the systems are flushed and the reservoirs cleaned out every two years. Some times this does not happen /...... I have a mutual friend's S2 at the moment which had something in the reservoirs resembling what I understand to be ichor. Frankly the abuse owners subject their cars to in the braking department is mind boggling and of course when the worst occurs its not their fault!! | ||
| Dr. Omar M. Shams New User Username: omar Post Number: 10 Registered: 4-2009 |
I would be interetsed to learn what frequency people use to determine when they should replace the entire contents of their brake fluids ( I refer to hygroscopic fluids in this statement). I have always maintained that an absolute maximum of 5 years but preferably every 2 years. I call it cheap insurance. Again, I am driven by the climatic conditions where I live - we have many days of 100% humidity every year. | ||
| Jan Forrest Frequent User Username: got_one Post Number: 73 Registered: 1-2008 |
IIRC 3 years is the absolute maximum for the sake of safety, with 2 years being far preferable and even sooner in wetter climes: The Indian sub-continent being a case in point due to the heavy rains experienced during the Monsoons! Although genuine RR363 is only twice the price of DOT4 in some places, in most of the world the premium is more like 500 - 1,000%! Here, in Blighty, the best price I've seen is GBP(£)108 for 12 litres, postage included. As this 'offer' only came up after I'd finished rebuilding the braking system on The Old Girl it was too late to take it up. Normally I would expect to pay GBP(£)15 per litre - postage & tax extra! For that price I can make up almost 4 litres of DOT4/castor oil (GBP(£)20 for 4.5 litres). I doubt that clumping or separation would be much of a problem with 'Global Warming' becoming a fact and not using more than a 10% solution and leaving it in the system for no more than 2 years, max. As for the use of pro/pre/post/poxy/ethylated/methylated/synthesized/whatever castor oil ... in the post 9/11 world even the purchase of 'large' quantitities of citric acid (often used in the home brewing of beers, wines, ciders and half strength 'sprits') can bring you to the attention of the police or Security Services  | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 320 Registered: 6-2006 |
Jan - the term Global warming has been dropped in favour of climate change or Global Wetting. Global Warming was a very bad choice as a description! Much too inviting and cosy. lol. In Britain we were all up for a little (or a lot) of Global Warming - until it turns out to be 1 or 2 degrees of warmer and 500 mm of extra rain. | ||
| Jan Forrest Frequent User Username: got_one Post Number: 74 Registered: 1-2008 |
As you say, Paul: Global Warming is now called Climate Change as some areas will become warmer and drier, some warmer and wetter and others may even end up colder (brrrr). If the Antartctic ice caps melt, then the Gulf Stream could fail putting the British Isles firmly back into the Arctic Circle  Leeds is on the same parallel as Minsk in Russia and we all know how cold that gets in Winter! At least we'll still be as close to the sea as we ever were which should temper the climate considerably even without the Gulf Stream dumping excess heat picked up from Florida and the Bahamas (there's nowhere in the UK that is more than 80 miles from the ocean). Personally I prefer to look on the bright side: Chuck another prawn on the barby, sport. | ||
| Dr. Omar M. Shams Experienced User Username: omar Post Number: 11 Registered: 4-2009 |
ok you lot........... if you were really being honest with yourselves, would you say that you religously change your RR363 every 3 years or less? I will be honest and say that I have slipped up once or twice about this regime. Too much hassel and too much cost..... however, I will do it from now on.....promise.... | ||
| Gus Brogden Frequent User Username: gus Post Number: 51 Registered: 2-2008 |
I tried the the distilled yak pee. After distillation, it was just like dihydrogen monoxide. I found it had a super low boiling point and it made my pumps pound. I do agree with Mr. Treacy, that to create your own hydraulic fluid, it should be ethoxylated propoxylated castor oil that is added. I want to make some and try it, but my chemist friend never heard of it and I can only find it in india or china. Do any of you good folks out there know where I can get some in north america? | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1119 Registered: 4-2003 |
Well Gus you have to carefully pick your yaks!! Incidentally, having a Shadow II that haemorrhaged all over the ground I had to buy a case of RR363 at the local Castrol distributors in Canberra. The price was $12 a bottle! For info | ||
| Gus Brogden Frequent User Username: gus Post Number: 52 Registered: 2-2008 |
Hee hee, Bill all my yaks have been hand picked. I am now fermenting the expelled yak fluids to feed my friends when they come to sample my homemade grog. RR363 here is also 10 times the price of DOT fluid, supply and demand rules. My last case came to Canada from the southern USA, and was still cheaper and quicker than the dealer in my province. With two Shadows, I would love a source of hydraulic fluid that is accessible and reasonably priced. I am committed to blending my own hydraulic fluid, using new 363 as a guideline to compare the new compound. MSDS reports will tell mostly what needs to be known. Materials, viscosity, lubricity, PH, boiling points, and floculation need to be observed. Ethoxylated propoxylated castor is designed to mix with DOT fluids and alcohols. As far as insurance is concerned, it would still be a majority DOT fluid, so I dont see a problem there. 'Tis a week's pay for many a clerk for a case of the esteemed 363 around here, if you can get it. It cant be any harder than making paint. | ||
| Dr. Omar M. Shams Experienced User Username: omar Post Number: 22 Registered: 4-2009 |
Gus, loved your post!!! Do watch for the effects of low temperatures on the fluid you wish to use. the website that Jan refered to above is where I got my inspiration from - and in their experience - they encountered one or two issues with low temperatures. Good luck with your free spirit approach. One thing I will share with you is that I intend to flush my entire system of "Yak-363" every 24 months. My thoughts are that any coagulation that may take place (if at all) will not have enough time to result in any potential long term problems. I like the name YAK-363, it has a certain ring to it....... perhaps I will start to use this name for the home made brew. Good luck. | ||
| Gus Brogden Frequent User Username: gus Post Number: 53 Registered: 2-2008 |
I like the YAK-363 name also. We must give credit for the name where it is due. | ||
| Omar M. Shams Frequent User Username: omar Post Number: 82 Registered: 4-2009 |
Almost a year of running on YAK-363 and the car is still running well. I have covered 4500 Kms in 1 year and have no leaks or loss of performance. I still maintain that my hydraulics feel better than my old Shadow II did when it ran exclusively on RR-363. I have seen an unrelated failure and that is of the accumulators losing charge. I charged them up and we were back on line again. I will now switch my other Wraith II to YAK-363 and 6 months later the Shadow 1 too. I am not advocating people to switch to anything other than the OEM fluid. All I am doing is merely keeping the community informed of my findings. | ||
| Gus Brogden Frequent User Username: gus Post Number: 65 Registered: 2-2008 |
Because of our cold canadian winters, I am not prepared to mix dot 3 with staight castor oil. My canadian blend of yak must have ethoxylated castor to ensure miscibility in the cold. So far, all I found is a company in Hong Kong who will only sell me a 45 gallon drum, plus shipping. Any ideas on where to get ethox/propox castor in N/A? I have to sell 7 pints of blood to buy a liter of 363, and the wife says I'm getting pale.... | ||
| Omar M. Shams Frequent User Username: omar Post Number: 83 Registered: 4-2009 |
Gus, I hope someone comes to your rescue with a supplier of ethoxylated Castor Oil. If you ever visit Dubai I will give you a litre of the stuff. That will mix many litres of YAK-363 blend for you.You can deal with the Customs officer when you return home...... On a serious note, I have no idea what the performace will be in cold countries. I would trial this sort of exercise in the summer and gradually see the effect as ambient temperatures drop. Good luck | ||
| Gus Brogden Frequent User Username: gus Post Number: 66 Registered: 2-2008 |
Hi Omar,thanks for the offer, but if I ever visited Dubai, I would likely never leave. Ditto for New Zealand and Australia. I am led to believe that straight castor would floculate at colder temps. A good test for this could be performed in the freezer. I wouldnt mind finding some E/P castor. I went through $500 CAD of 363 in the last year, and will go through that much again next year. If I made my own Yak 363 I could finally afford to stop cutting my own hair. The search continues..... |
