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Nigel A Ralph
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 182.119.84.58.dynamic.qld.chariot.net.au
Posted on Tuesday, 20 February, 2007 - 08:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi All

Last weekend with time on my hands, due to our Nth Qld 'wet' season, I decided to flush my engine cooling system. I had read that the system should be done every 2 years and I doubted whether mine had been done in the last 20 years if ever.

Everything went fine and I had bought the 8 litres of concentrated coolant to mix 50/50 etc. I undid the radiator and the two engine block plugs and everything went well until I tried to fill the thing again.

I only got 11.5 litres of coolant into the radiator and engine! (This is despite a new radiator last year especially built with larger tubing etc for the continually hot Nth Qld climate.)

When I drove to work (15kms) I checked under the bonnet and the engine was making 'boiling' sounds. I naturally freaked.

After work when it had cooled I could not add any more coolant. I drove home carefully but the next morning I managed to get another litre of coolant in.

I have no idea what is going on but suspected there was a large airblock in the system. I drained the system through the radiator and refilled very slowly but could still only get about 12 litres into the system.

Can anyone help? If there is an airlock, how does one overcome it. Do I park on a steep up/down incline and leave overnight? Do I refill through the thermostat piping? Any help would be appreciated.

It didn't boil today but I am concerned that around 12 litres of coolant is very short of the 16 litres expected. Could my system be blocked somewhere inside? The engine is running beautifully!



(Message approved by david_gore)
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 702
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 22 February, 2007 - 11:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Nigel,

Did you fill the heater system separately or just rely on it filling by gravity when you filled the radiator?

I had this problem with DRH14434 and ended up filling the heater and engine block individually using a small electric water pump drawing the coolant from a tub to pressure feed them through the inlet hoses [with the thermostat removed and all heater valves open] and allowing the overflow from the outlet hoses to go back into the tub untill no air bubbles were evident. I then connected the radiator and filled it before running the engine with the header tank cap removed and watching the coolant level until the engine reached normal operating temperature and the thermostat had opened fully as confirmed by the outlet hose getting too hot to touch. Also check the heater return hose as this should also be warm to hot depending on the ambient air temperature [probably hot given your location ]
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Paul Yorke
Experienced User
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 12
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, 22 February, 2007 - 08:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Nigel,

Usually they are quite straight forward if you:

Try to park with the filler cap as the highest point. Or jack the car up under the LHF damper.

Make sure heaters are full on and the heater taps are actually open.

Fill it with the engine off , run it for a minuite and then leave it for a while to settle again. Do that as many times as necessary. 2 or 3 times is usually enough.

Run it with the cap off until the water has expanded and is about to overflow then put the cap on. Run for another 10 minutes ( until the thermostat opens fully ) Then leave it to cool.

Top up again.

Often you need to add another pint or so the next morning.

I would say generally they are quite good to fill, but you need to give it plenty of time, plus running it

Now Seraphs - they are a different matter!

Good luck, Paul.
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Nigel A Ralph
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 126.113.84.58.dynamic.qld.chariot.net.au
Posted on Friday, 23 February, 2007 - 08:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks David and Paul,

I simply can't remember if I filled with the heater open and relied on gravity. Logic says I should have but I could easily have been fluffing around with things during the interim.

David, as a 'stuffer arounder' who does this for therapy (usually with a beer in hand) I know I would have to put my beer down and do a hell-of-a-lot more reading of the manual and obtain equipment I do not have at present, if I was to follow your advice - which I know absolutely to be correct.

I shall try Paul's advice first and run the car up the bank, open the heater taps/switches, take radiator cap off, run the engine (while sitting comfortably inside with beer in hand) for a minute or two then stop engine, let cool while I get another beer, then check. I'll do this several times, as suggested, and hope it does the trick.

Shall let you know the result.



(Message approved by david_gore)
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 704
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 24 February, 2007 - 08:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Nigel,

If all else fails, at least fill the heater circuit with a garden hose before filling the block - just add the additional concentrate needed for the heater to your mix for the engine block.

My experience over the years has involved problems with air locks in the heater system in a variety of cars - for some reason air locks are often reluctant to purge themselves. My opinion is the pressure drop in the heater circuit is fairly close to the working pressure of the water pump - this reduces the coolant flow rate in the circuit to match the heat transfer rate from the core to the cabin air whilst controlling erosion of the copper/brass/aluminium "foil" used in the core. Unfortunately, the pressure difference is then too low to overcome back pressure from any airlock that might be present.

Just my 2 cents worth!
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 646
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Saturday, 24 February, 2007 - 09:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Always best to use distilled or rain water.
I use are stored up water from one of the dehumidifiers of which seems to produce gallons with all the rain we are now having in the UK.
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bob uk
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Posted From: brig-cache-4.server.ntli.net
Posted on Tuesday, 27 February, 2007 - 04:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The header tank has a small pipe that goes to the rad.

I like to disconnect this pipe to allow air to get out of the rad and allow a small amount of coolant to prove that the rad is full.

Also after coolant change I always check that the heater is working if not the heater may have no coolant and therefore the water level must be low.

I distrust low coolant sensors however the RR one does seem to be better than most

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Nigel A Ralph
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 204.116.84.58.dynamic.qld.chariot.net.au
Posted on Monday, 26 February, 2007 - 08:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

HI David

Many thanks for yor advice but where do I disconnect the heater circuit in order to fill with the garden hose (which at present is running on rainwater, Patrick). I know its obvious to anyone who already knows but I simply don't know.

I tried Paul's idea but was not able to put any more coolant/water in the system. The boiling has stopped of course but there are still a few tummy squiggles (similar to one's own after eating something that is going to give you the gallops). I have no idea whether this is normal but I do not recall being aware of them before.

Knowing how to fill the heater circuit before doing the block and radiator seems a very sensible thing to learn. I would certainly appreciate your advice.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 705
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 27 February, 2007 - 03:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Nigel,

Unfortunately I no longer have access to a Shadow to refresh my memory on the heater connections let alone take photos as "one look is worth a 1000 words" especially when trying to describe the connections.

I did this job over 5 years ago now and my memory is a little hazy but I think the connections I used were at the water pump [return] and the heater tap [feed]on the LHS of the engine bay under the hydraulic fluid reservoir.

I would be most appreciative if someone could photograph these connections and put them up as a post.
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Nigel A Ralph
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Posted From: 143.119.84.58.dynamic.qld.chariot.net.au
Posted on Tuesday, 27 February, 2007 - 08:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks David,

there are three hoses in the area near the hydraulic reservoir. One is the air-con and I assume the other two are the heater.

Should I disconnect both and fill with the house hose until water comes out the other, or simply fill from one (the top would be easier as it has a longer flexible section) until water comes out through the radiator?

How did you fill the block separately from the heater and radiator?

Sorry to sound so ignorant.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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bob uk
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Posted From: brig-cache-4.server.ntli.net
Posted on Thursday, 01 March, 2007 - 04:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

One way I have often used on other cars is to disconnect the header tank from the rad- main feed 5/8 pipe and fit a much longer pipe which goes to a higher up tank such as a bucket of the garage roof thus giving a head to the supply.

On some French cars the water expansion tank is fitted with bungees so that the tank can be quickly moved to hang of the open bonnet high up so that the system has a head and then a bleed screw is opened and when bubble free coolant comes out the job is done.

With the Shadow turn the heater fully on it is worth having a helper watch the water valve to make sure it is actually working esp cars with climate control such as the Shadow II.

Then fill the system up. leave cap off

WAIT.

5 mins then check.

Top up as required

Replace cap ----- do not screw down until the rubber seal is damaged just a nip will do.

Run engine feel the various hoses for heat as soon as the top hose gets warm turn engine off.

WAIT

another 5 mins an then feel the top hose if it squashes then the system is not pressurised. safe to remove cap and check.

top up as required.

Then go for test drive with heater on hot and test the vents with a hand to check for warmth.

My car has warm air within 1/2 mile from cold.

The thermostat has a jiggle pin float with is a small hole with a plastci float in it when no water is pressent the jiggle pin drop s and allows trapped air to escape via the top hose as soon as the water is present the jiggle closes the vent.

Some cars are not fitted with a jiggle pin and I have in the past open the stat up by hand and filed a nick in the plate to allow air to escape if the stat is fitted upright as in the Rover V8 I would put the nick upper most.

I found that if I drilled a 1/8 or 3mm hole through the stat plate it was too much coolant going through the hole causing longer warm up times.

The Shadow is known to suffer from air locks if coolant is just poured in and nothing else done. However if the system is carefully filled and checked as the car warms up then it is an easy car to get the air out of.

I do this with all cars.

Strickly speaking antifreeze will have inhibitors in it to allow tap water ( drinking water ) to be used safely however I would use rainwater or fridge water if avalable, but if only tap water is available then if will be fine.

Once a week regardless of weather I turn the heater to max for a check. If I am on a long run I sometimes use the heater to check that the system has coolant --- no heat could mean no coolant.



(Message approved by david_gore)
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Paul Yorke
Experienced User
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 13
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, 01 March, 2007 - 04:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dear Nigel,

This is without benefit of listening to your car, but in general on Shadows, if you have filled it and driven it until hot, allowed it to cool, and it will not take any more water, I'd say you are probably there.

As long as the heater tap is open ( when you look at it, the part that rotates is in an elongated groove/channel which runs away from the tap body to open the tap.) Is thre heat coming into the car? If yes then I then water is flowing through the heater OK.

I would think that it would be impossible to get all of the water out of the system. Early cars had drain taps on the block. Not sure which block plugs you took out, but I suspect your missing water is probably still in there, and if the car is driving fine now, not overheating and not taking any more water, you are being over cautious. (not a bad thing!)

From your initial description of having to add a litre in the morning, and since then it's been fine, I would say that that you have done it correctly.

Hope she's still being good for you!




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John Kilkenny
Experienced User
Username: john_kilkenny

Post Number: 29
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Monday, 05 March, 2007 - 07:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Further to this discussion, as it is around the time to change the coolant in SRH1405 I decided to conduct an experiment and carefully measure the quantities used.

The present coolant is a 33 percent solution of a standard concentrate (930 g/l Ethylene Glycol) and I will be changing to water plus anti-corrosion additive to improve cooling efficiency.(I live in an area where anti-freeze is not necessary)

The level in the header tank was 1.0 cm below the seal.
I ran the car on fast idle for five minutes to ensure coolant was circulating through the radiator, and the heater was operating.

With the radiator cap off, draining coolant through the radiator tap produced 9.8 litres.
Draining through the engine block tap on the left hand side (next to the oil filter) gave 1.9 litres.
Draining through the right hand side tap gave 1.4 litres.
Total coolant removed was therefore 13.1 litres.

This is obviously less than the official 16 litres but how to check how much coolant remains in the system ?

Because the removed coolant is a green colour and I will be replacing it with water, any green coolant left in the system will colour the water, the depth of colour depending on the amount of coolant left.

If the 16 litre figure is correct there should be 2.9 litres of old coolant left in the system and if I replace the 13.1 litres I removed with water the resultant mixture will be a ratio of 4.5 water to 1.0 of old coolant.

So if I dilute some of the removed coolant with water in that ratio it should be the same colour as what is now in the system.

By SLOWLY and EVENLY (this is critical!) pouring water into the header tank I was able to get 12.2 litres into the system, followed by another 0.3 and 0.4 litres after running the engine, for a total of 12.9 litres, close to what was removed.

When I compared the two samples the colour of the coolant in the system was considerably weaker than the made up mixture. While it is difficult to precisely match pale colours I had to dilute the made up mixture over 100% with water to get a similar colour.

My conclusion is that my cooling system has a volume of less than 14 litres and while this may not apply to other Shadows, I would not take the 16 litre figure as gospel.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1164
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 06 March, 2007 - 02:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I must admit to bemusement at this topic, as it is one particular subject where I do find the factory books most precise and helpful. First, filling and purging the cooling systems of our cars has never been an issue for me, and I have never even considered that there is any difficulty whatsoever.

Secondly, Crewe did not prescribe glycol-based coolants for fun. Just read any Phantom III article to see why Crewe specified a solid concentration, and specified it retrospectively for all cars in around 1990. MkVIs were delivered new with 25%, but that was gradually increased to 40% for late R-Types, then finally raised retrospectively to 50%. The antifreeze and antiboil properties are bonuses, and especially for warm climates the glycol is extremely important in its restriction of corrosion. Water and inhibitors are vastly inferior in this regard. Even Holdens specify Castrol 350, a 35% concentration, for its cast iron motors. Alloy blocks need a higher concentration. Manufacturers do not use expensive coolants just to waste money on production costs.

As to concentration measurement, Crewe is adamant that a refractometer be used to measure the correct 50% concentration. So important is the quality and concentration in all climates that they issued the bulletin below for all Rolls-Royce and Bentley motorcars. If the concentration is 5% too high or too low, they abandoned the earlier practice of partial topup with concentrate or water, and insist on a complete coolant replacement.

On filling, never before have I heard that it has been an issue whatsoever. First, I always drain by removing the lower hose, open the heater water tap (described in the manuals), wait for the last drops then run the motor for 5 seconds maximum and wait a few minutes. Then refill with fresh tapwater and drain a few times. However, with the thermostat removed for renewal, it is sufficient to flush with the garden hose for some minutes instead. With the thermostat in place, after draining and filling a few times it is then sufficient to do a fill then drive around the block, drain, refill and drain again, then you are ready for the final fill. Regardless of how empty the system has become, I have always used the full quantity of Glycol concentrate, 8 litres for SY and early SZ cars and 9 litres for cars from 1987. Topped up with the preferred pure water, the refractometer readout has always been within a few percent of the 50% requirement. Regardless of any trapped clean water, using the full 8 or 9 litres of coolant concentrate will ensure a satisfactory concentration. The last change I did was a few weeks ago on a friend’s ’89, and it took the full 18 litres on refilling. Our ’72 T always takes the required 16 litres total. I would warn against opening the radiator bleed and drain plugs as, especially on the BEHR plastic tanks from 1987, they have a habit of breaking off.

Concerning water quality, town water is strictly controlled hourly. Your supplier will give you data to decide on whether or not to use distilled water. I would not be happy to use untreated home rain water. It is fine for the garden, but you probably have no idea of the bacteria, bugs, embryos and mineral levels of your rain runoff after it has poured over the roofing, galvanised ducts and dead leaves to reach the tank.


Extract from the Factory Service Bulletin:

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
09/10/06 TSD 6000 1990 - 2000 [English] / Water Quality and Coolant Concentration Page 1
(OID = <130364_1_1_1> UID = <1948> Dataset = <tsd>)
WORKSHOP MANUAL L SERVICE SCHEDULES B5 PARTS CATALOGUE 34
Water Quality and Coolant Concentration
Applicable to:
All Rolls-Royce and Bentley motor cars

Introduction

The purpose of this Product Support Information Sheet is to inform Dealer Personnel of de-salinated water in certain countries for areas where the water supply is high in chloride and sulphate concentrations (200 parts per million and above), there is a risk of compromising the coolant system performance by the formation of a precipitate. This precipitate can build up in the areas of low coolant flow and under extreme conditions could limit the thermal efficiency of the coolant package. It is important to note the coolant concentration necessary, and also the allowable limits in topping up or renewing the coolant.

De-salinated water can also have an effect on the corrosion inhibitions found in the 'coolant' and should not be used in the engine's cooling system. If possible, water which is both low in chloride and sulphate should be used in the cooling system. However, if you are in any doubt as to the suitability of the local water supply, then distilled water should be used.

The following table should be used to determine whether the coolant should be drained and renewed with a 50% mix of coolant and suitable water or whether the coolant system requires topping up.

Coolant percent________Top Up________Renew Coolant
56% to 100%__________------__________50% Glycol
55% to 44 %__________50% Glycol______----------
43% to 0%____________------__________50% Glycol

Note:
Never top up the coolant system with neat water. Never take your coolant sample from the expansion tank. Always take your coolant sample from the radiator. For an accurate reading, use a refractometer similar to the one shown in Fig. L5-1
003426
L5-1 Checking the anti-freeze concentration L5-1.
Mark Taylor
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

RT.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 647
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Tuesday, 06 March, 2007 - 05:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

For what it is worth i have never had any problems
refilling the cooling systems when the cars are in good shape either.
However when you have lower quantities used than the stated factory amount,the reason in most cases is due to the build up of debris and sludge within the engine block etc,localised boiling will take place around the wet liners,with the other many faults.
This in its self can be brought about by the incorrect water used playing havock with internal corrosion over time.
Regarding antifreeze i will do an update on the long life that i use in one of the SS still with its original water pump.
Now thats a topic for later that is not in the manual!
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Nigel A Ralph
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 32.115.84.58.dynamic.qld.chariot.net.au
Posted on Monday, 05 March, 2007 - 08:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks Paul and John

I really do appreciate the wide experience that is shared so openly on this site.

Yes Paul, the old girl is running beautifully still, so I accept that I have been over cautious, but I have done some b----- stupid things in the past which a little bit of understanding of the mechanics of the system would have prevented. eg ensuring that the heater was open when refilling with coolant. Its obvious once you know! The heater is never used up here in Nth Qld.

I do have a very slight coolant leak underneath the water pump but can't trace it precisely yet. Shall try tightening a few nuts hanging out of the engine block around the pump and fan area and see if that fixes it.



(Message approved by david_gore)
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Paul Yorke
Experienced User
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 14
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, 06 March, 2007 - 09:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Nigel, Over cautious is definately preferable to jumping in with both feet!

The bad nes is new anti-freeze tends to find any week spots in the cooling system. If you have a mirror on a stick (type thingy) take a look at the bottom of the water pump behind the pully. There is a tell tale hole in the casing that allows water getting past the seal to weep out. This runs down from the bottom of the water pump onto teh bottom pully and around and down again.

These often weep with new anti-freeze. Hope it's just a loose hose or something though!
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John Kilkenny
Experienced User
Username: john_kilkenny

Post Number: 30
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Tuesday, 06 March, 2007 - 09:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard,
Obviously it is generally correct to follow manufacturers advice but sometimes, particularly with older cars, non-standard approaches can be useful,as your advice to not use the radiator drain plugs.

Your statement that water and inhibitors are vastly inferior to glycol is simply not true. The only real purpose of glycol in automotive coolants is to decrease the freezing point. It does also increase the boiling point of the mixture but this is immaterial for most pressurised systems,

The reason that manufacturers specify a minimum 50% concentration is to ensure the corrosion inhibitors are at the required level.

Standard automotive antifreeze concentrates contain around 95% ethylene glycol plus corrosion inhibitors. Some of these inhibitors are to reduce the corrosive effect of glycol itself and these are gradually used up which is why it is recommended to change the coolant every one or two years. A non-glycol corrosion inhibitor such as Caltex XL Corrosion Inhibitor will last for 150 thousand kilometres or 4 years.

A 50% glycol coolant has a heat transfer capacity around 20% less than plain water. This does not matter in newer cars with more efficient engines and cooling systems but can be the difference between boilng and not boiling on hot days for older cars.

I have to admit that I also have not experienced trouble with air locks when refilling but some people obviously have.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1165
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 06 March, 2007 - 10:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

John,

One major overlooked advantage of glycol coolants is that they speed the warm-up cycle enormously. Motors hate being run cold, and it is a nice bonus when the heater works quickly in Winter too. Cooling systems with so much spare capacity even in the Sahara, such as in postwar Crewe cars, will never suffer even a hint of overheating unless something is terribly wrong. Most importantly, our 16-18 litre cooling systems, the majority within the thermostat circuit, need far more time to reach an acceptable temperature than a small BMW with just a few litres to warm up, and glycols help this in a very useful manner.

Thanks, but I would prefer to observe practically every, if not all, of the world’s motor manufacturers’ recommendations and to use a propylene or ethylene glycol coolant, depending on country of origin, than to deviate radically by using straight water mixed with inhibitor.

Oh well, we must agree to disagree.

RT.
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John Kilkenny
Experienced User
Username: john_kilkenny

Post Number: 31
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Tuesday, 06 March, 2007 - 11:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard,
Yes, the superior heat transfer property of plain water will mean the block warm up will be a little slower than with glycol. On the other hand the heater will come on sooner for the same reason.

I am not saying that everyone in a frost free area should change to a non-glycol coolant but it is something that should be considered, particularly for an older car with occasional overheating.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 648
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Tuesday, 06 March, 2007 - 03:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I am not saying that everyone in a frost free area should change to a non-glycol coolant but it is something that should be considered, particularly for an older car with occasional overheating.

Warning
One thing any Shadow will not stand is occasional overheating.
The all alloy and wet liner configuration is frought with problems when this is allowed to continue.
If you use long life antifreeze use a waterpump lube to in my opinion give lasting pump life.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1166
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 07 March, 2007 - 08:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

After a conversation with a colleague last night, who has recently suffered damage to his motor by using the wrong coolant, I had a mild panic attack. The damage was caused by taking misleading professional advice and using a coolant with an inhibitor incompatible with neoprene. This coolant is marketed as generically sound, but is causing widespread problems with new and old cars of all brands it reveals. This may cause widespread class action against the suppliers it emerges. The major issue here I refer to concerning us is liner seal leaks of course, and consequential damage to the lower liner oil seals in prewar alloy motors and V8 postwar motors alike. The inhibitor is called Bio something, and attacks some o-rings an hoses in days.

Panic. I then realised that the supplier of the coolant I use has switched from ethylene glycol to propylene glycol. Even though I purged the system a few months ago, I was worried that any residue may have caused problems, but not so it seems. A few calls to chemical companies this morning revealed the attached. Note that they are precise in recommending that you do not deviate from the manufacturers’ recommendations.


application/pdf
PanicDontPanic1.pdf (154.7 k)
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1167
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 08 March, 2007 - 06:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Further to the last post, read Lucky Page 13 of its attachment to see the bad news on organic inhibitors (OAT) and Silicone. The liners in our cars are sealed off using silicone sealant compounds. Long-life coolant may not really be wise as it seems that its special wonderstuff OAT inhibitor kills silicone in time.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 650
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Friday, 09 March, 2007 - 06:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

But keep to the times,like manufactures recomendation with 20/50 oil! old hat.
Use modern semi synthetic or fully synthetic oils. In modern times now proved the way forward.
Modern antifreeze long life,useing the correct type is just the ticket in all ally engine wet liner set ups.

Moderator's Comment: This is a personal opinion held by the contributor and may or may not be appropriate given other posts in this thread - Readers must carefully consider all advice on public forums such as this before making their own decisions. In my case, I will not deviate from manufacturer's published recommendations as I am not prepared to undertake free "long-term durability testing" for new products with the attendant risk of having to carry the cost of repairs if the product has problems that do not show up until it has been used for a considerable period of time.

I am testing with so far good results,no hose seeps, original pump with no as some say regular pump gushers.
And engine corrosion nil.
Just like Some modern manufactures useing it.
The type will be revealed in a few more years.
Or it may well be common knowledge on the UPDATED net beforehand.



(Message edited by david_gore on 13 March 2007)
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1169
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, 09 March, 2007 - 08:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Sorry to harp on, but please be careful in publically recommending longlife coolants as it is a widely unresolved matter.

We now have a direct sample of just two, with a 50% failure rate so far. One engine rebuilt professionally four years ago suffered chronic leaks everywhere, liners included, and suffered a near disaster with OAT longlife coolant within weeks of experimenting with the stuff in the past month or so. Another, an old one, so far so good.

The coolant manufacturer has since even changed the colour from red to light blue because,

quote:
it was so bright
unquote

to stop the leaks being so obvious. That is on newish vehicles, VW being quoted by the coolant manufacturer as a major problem. Also, it was never tested with neoprene because,

quote:
Neoprene was not reported as being a sealing material widely used and was therefore never tested. As such it is possible that the inhibitors in this antifreeze may have an
adverse effect on this unusual material.
Unquote.

What a laugh that is. Most makes of cars, ours included, are loaded with neoprene.

That's hardly encouraging for longlife coolants so far.

Whether OAT and HOAT coolants gain the widespread approval of the industry is open to speculation, but these coolants have a lot to prove in the laboratories until then.

Synthetic oils are a completely different subject. Crewe and BMW, among others, did not approve synthetic oils for ages, but now they do. BMW voided warranty if synthetics were used until not long ago, so extreme were the concerns.

RT.
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Paul Yorke
Experienced User
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 15
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, 09 March, 2007 - 08:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hmmmmmmmm

Keeping up with the times or lining the manufacturers pockets?

The RR V8 run on 'normal' 20/50 or 15/40 will give what , with regular oil and filter changes, an easy 200,000 miles ?? The engine will be quiet and happy with that and will cost between a 1/2 and a 1/4 the price of synthetic oil changes.

Turbo cars need to cope with much more work and heat but with naturally asperated cars, I can see only one winner!

All oil these days is 'fantastic' in comparison to what used to be available, so switching a Cloud or Shadow to a fully synthetic is like washing your car with " Bling H2O " , might make you feel special, but will the car be any better for it?

I'm not even going to mention bore glazing or extra tappet noise etc. because I'm sure it will cause a fight! LOL.

Likewise Anti-freeze. Is it broken? So you have to change it a little more often. Does that warrent trying 'the latest' out on your engine? I'll let somebody else be the guinea pig, thank you!

How many 'GREAT IDEAS' and 'IINVENTIONS' can people name that were hailed as the biggest step forward since . . . . well, sliced bread . . . . but are now, well, not so nice!

Sliced bread for one.
Self releasing paking brakes?
Headlamp wipers?
The drivers map light switch on shadows?
Anti- Hijack locking that operates before the car is moved. ( ok . not so much of a problem for the public, but it catches mechanics out!)

Enjoy what's working. Spend your spare time keeping it that way and fixing what isn't!
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Stephe Boddice
Experienced User
Username: stephe_boddice

Post Number: 48
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Friday, 09 March, 2007 - 09:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Gentlemen,

On the subject of long-life coolant using Organic Acid Technilogy (OAT) inhibitor packs:-

Richard T is absolutely correct in his warnings against this type product. I am currently involved in high-level liability discussions with one of the UK's major automotive retailers and their supplier. These discussions may lead to my suing both parties due to their inappropriate marketing of OAT coolant which stated that it can be used in "older engines".

The OAT coolant containers give no warnings regarding possible problems and promote the product as producing only beneficial results. The OAT coolant is also sold under the same manufacturing British Standard number as the previous antifreeze containing an inorganic inhibitor pack.

BE WARNED !

In July 2006 I decided to replace the antifreeze in my Phantom III engine as it had been in use for 2 years. I replenished the cooling system, after thorough flushing, with OAT coolant. Within a month, every seal, gasket and pipe junction in the cooling system was leaking. This includes the 24 'O' rings at the base of the 12 wet liners.

I drained the cooling system and flushed it. All gaskets and hoses had to be replaced but, for obvious reasons, I chose not to rebuild the engine to install new 'O' rings. The coolant was replaced with IAT antifreeze.

The good news is that all water leaks stopped immediately,
The bad news is that the OAT coolant had seeped past the water 'O' rings and has caused the oil 'O' rings to start weeping oil.

I am now 8 months into investigating why this problem occurred. The retailers have done all in their power to stonewall my enquiries. Finding that I am not easily restrained they have eventually started a dialogue because they realise that there are tens of thousands of 'old car' users who may experience the same problems as me. Class actions may loom over the horizon.

Some of the information so far provided and discovered is as follows: -

Some manufacturers refuse to use OAT coolant because long distance trials have shown that it attacks internal engine seals and gaskets - particularly those containing silicon. See RT's PDF above.
Other manufacturers have avoided use of OAT in any engines built prior to about 2000 (dates vary by manufacturer).
The UK coolant manufacturer has specifically stated that Rolls-Royce warn against the use of OAT coolant in any of their engines. PL please note!
OAT coolant is known to cause at least slight leaks even in new engines. VW ordered a modification to the formulation, due to these problems, when moving from version G12 to G12+ of OAT.
To disguise small leaks the coolant manufacturers admit to having changed the dye to make leaks less obvious. Presumably, in warmer climates, they are hoping that evaporation will help.

The upshot is that OAT is inappropriate for any Rolls-Royce or Bentley engine.

SB
www.boddice.co.uk

(Message edited by Stephe Boddice on 09 March 2007)

(Message edited by stephe boddice on 09 March 2007)
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 652
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Saturday, 10 March, 2007 - 08:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Ok Richard,looks like your reading probs are the use of OAT.
Things have moved on.
Richard are you saying that the liner seals are attacked by the HOAT go5 spec?
I will not ramble on!

Stephe, who on earth told you to use the long life OAT antifreeze?
This is one way for total disaster in the old crocks.
You will have greater probs than what you have already found.
By the way colours can confuse issues further.
I will give full reports on the modern type that i use with the passing of time after all 98% is not good enough for a RR.[time factor]
Just like the progress of synthetic oils over time!
The best must be the best.



(Message edited by pat lockyer on 10 March 2007)
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Stephe Boddice
Experienced User
Username: stephe_boddice

Post Number: 49
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Saturday, 10 March, 2007 - 08:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Pat,

I chose the long life coolant because there was no standard antifreeze on offer.
Nowhere on the labeling did it state that it contained OAT inhibitors. It did state that it was suitable for old engines and had improved anti-corrosion properties.

I will repeat the comment from the coolant manufacturers that both they and Rolls-Royce do not recommend its use in RR or B engines. Pity they didn't put that on the tin!

SB
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 653
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Saturday, 10 March, 2007 - 09:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Stephe,what you say is correct with "OAT" however the HOAT G05 long life is a nother thing used correctly,brillant so far.}

Any owner considering a change to new products not recommended by the car manufacturer must "do their homework" with regard to all the types now on offer and be aware that long-term problems may arise with the use of new products that may not have shown up in initial testing by the manufacturer [a classic Australian example was metallic acrylic car paint which passed accelerated fading tests conducted by the manufacturer yet faded after several years exposure to our climatic conditions.


Some mixing and use of the incorrect type will reck the most parts of the cooling system.
Beware.

(Message edited by david_gore on 13 March 2007)
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1172
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 10 March, 2007 - 11:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Be fair. Stephe has definitely done his homework.

As he implies, these fluids lack key approvals, and there must be reasons for that. Even the GO5, hurriedly cobbled together by the wounded suppliers in panic, is only approved for year 2000 and later Mopar for example. Let's throw caution to the wind. Maybe the sacrificial silicone in the hybrid fluid saves the silicone sealants and seals in our motors. Maybe. Maybe in 20 years it will prove suitable for our V8s if it is tested successfully in 2000 Silver Shadows. Maybe. I certainly will not offer a free trial. A sample of one test for a few months with a hybrid on an old motor is so statistically insignificant that it should be dismissed.

Never forget the main reason for the development of the organic acid technologies in the first place. In many markets, new cars have warranties for maybe three years and 100,000km, maintenance included. Manufacturers are scrambling to find long-life fluids in all systems, fluids which last that long to skimp on maintenance costs. That means no maintenance at all. Just maybe they have hit a brick wall with organic and hybrid coolants.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 654
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Sunday, 11 March, 2007 - 07:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Be fair. Stephe has definitely done his homework.

Richard of course Stephe has done his homework.
My word "you" was meant all of us.

Content edited by Moderator

Richards Quote "he implies" Do you mean Stephe, no i don't think so, "As for Even the GO5, hurriedly cobbled together by the wounded suppliers in panic".

Content edited

Richard this is not true G-05 is brought about for longer than the previous OAT coolant change intervals also making it with higher all round specification etc.

Please state who you consider to be the body who give Key Approvals for the G05 that have not done so!
Pleased that you agree that G05 is ok for the liner seals maybe!
That is a start.
My word this sort of discussion was just what was said by the "old crew" when synthetic oils were first introduced.

The following is a personal opinion and is contradicted by other information in this thread - readers must exercise their own judgement. ALSO SEE DETAILED COMMENT BELOW DATED 13TH MARCH

Testing in the field so to speak has proved 100% with G-05.
Recomended for old cars.
But hang on lets see if my original water pump and the rest of the system proves ok.
As you say they can become a gusher, on yours replace every four years i beleive!

As for some manufacturers moderns running with the G-05
This is the best since sliced bread.




(Message edited by david_gore on 13 March 2007)

(Message edited by david_gore on 13 March 2007)
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1173
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 11 March, 2007 - 10:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Just read the posts, and do some research. For sure, G05 is not proven safe with wet liners.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 655
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Sunday, 11 March, 2007 - 10:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

My word that was short,can you not reply to your statements or give the reference link to the G-05 authoritive body that has not passed it.

(Message edited by pat lockyer on 12 March 2007)
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Nigel A Ralph
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 208.112.84.58.dynamic.qld.chariot.net.au
Posted on Thursday, 08 March, 2007 - 09:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks to everyone for their input. From this end I find it disappointing that I must be in the minority in having trouble refilling the cooling system after flushing three times, but facts are facts. I simply did have trouble and I believe I still only have about 14.5 litres of coolent inside.

Richard, our rainwater is vastly superior to the local townwater, which is from several bores, turns crystal and glassware smokey, and smells of chlorine regularly. At least our rainwater makes a great cuppa (possibly due to bird, snake and frog residue) and is probably helping us build up a resistence to the next wave of virus or bacteria.

As to my lovely lady, it probably serves me right that this morning on the way to work I complimented her on her smooth, quiet ride, but this afternoon when I tried to start her ... nothing. I thought that I had a flat battery, though there had been no indication of it going flat. The problem was simply that the starter motor had jammed. Luckily an enterprising RACQ chap turned the engine over with a spanner on one of the things (generator I think) that the belts go round.

Paul, thanks for your advice. Perhaps I shouldn't look further than the hoses and simply keep topping up. The loss is minimal (about 50c on the garage floor) but I have been trying to get the old girl back into the condition one expects of a Rolls.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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bob uk
Unregistered guest
Posted From: brig-cache-4.server.ntli.net
Posted on Friday, 09 March, 2007 - 02:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Lot of fuss about a very simple thing.

Antifreeze is heavier than water.

This means that if the specific gravity of the coolant is measured using a hydrometer then the concentration of antifreeze can be determined.

Shops sell hydrometer designed to measure antifreeze concentrations for less than £5.


Gycol antifrreezes are heavier than water methanol antifreezes are lighter.

Methanol antifreeze MUST NOT be used in RRs.

it is not possible to drain the system entirely even if the engine has drain plugs.

The heater and the various hoses must hold say 1 litres.

If you really must get every last drop of stale antifreeze out then fill up with plain water and run until hot then repeat.

I only ever do this if the system has rusty water in it. I sometimes connect a heater hose to the water main and run water though for 30 mins or so.

The water comes out of the filler neck hopefully taking all the muck with it.


Shadows do not have a coolant problem just owners worrying.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Paul Yorke
Experienced User
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 16
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, 12 March, 2007 - 06:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Nigel.

Two things. I don't think you had actual problems filling your water system. I think you had an expectant problem with the quantity.

As long as you fill with anti-freeze first then water, the rest will sort itself out!

I would however keep looking for the leak. It's very rare for them to cure themselves! Don't be tempted to add any 'stop leak' type product.

Laughing at the starter motor episode. They can be attension seeking little ...... at times.

Hope she carries on smoothly!
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Nigel A Ralph
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 67.115.84.58.dynamic.qld.chariot.net.au
Posted on Monday, 12 March, 2007 - 08:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks Paul

I spoke to my mechanic friend today and he suggests I start looking for a reconditioned water pump. He had a look at my little leak and suggested very gently that the leak was in fact coming from the little hole under the water pump and that if it continues it will wash the grease out of the pump bearings and then the whole thing will wear badly and go out of balance etc etc. He does not seem to think that it would be a major problem so I'll certainly leave it up to him.

It really is amazing that if you look for things that may be wrong you find them.

I have always driven to my destination, got out and gone my merry way but now I drive there, get out, open the bonnet and listen. I have now heard sounds like boiling coming from the lower engine bock immediately after I have been cruising at over 100kph for 15-20 minutes. My friend, who hasn't heard the sounds, says it is probably the oil settling back down to the sump. I hope he is right! but it doesn't sound quite like that to me. I've had several old bombs, a couple of tractors which did quite a bit of work, and a truck but have never heard a sound like this before. It really is a boiling type sound, but doesn't go on for very long. I use Nulon 40-70 oil for older engines and so far its been fine. But then I never used to listen to the engine.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 708
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 13 March, 2007 - 08:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Nigel,

I am sceptical about the oil going back to the sump causing a boiling noise but it could be hydraulic fluid discharging from the accumulators through the pressure relief valve. If your engine was boiling internally, I would expect it to be obvious from the top radiator hose pulsating and the steam valve discharge hose venting excess pressure. Try putting a screwdriver on the thermostat housing and putting the handle to your ear as a stethoscope; if the engine is boiling, this should be easily heard.

The only exception to this would be a blockage in the coolant discharge passages from the block to the thermostat housing [highly unlikely as you would have picked this up from the top radiator hose not getting hot]; if the passages are partially blocked or the thermostat not opening fully, the back pressure could relieve itself by pushing coolant back through the bottom radiator hose. You could confirm this by holding the hose and feeling for the pressure pulsations or the presence of very hot water inside. I think this would be a very rare possibility but Murphy's Law has caused problems for me in the past!!
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1177
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 13 March, 2007 - 09:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

How is the thermostat, Nigel ?

Hints of boiling on heat-soak once the motor is stopped, and especially with your new increased radiator efficacy, suggest that the thermostat may be sticky. It would not be the first time. I started earlier thermostat change periods after this exact worry quite some years ago when the motor on our '72 (SBH13247) showed odd heat-soak rumbles but with no coolant loss. A new thermostat eliminated all symptoms instantly. If the thermostat is not too old, a clean up and a dozen cycles, fully closed to fully open in a saucepan of boiling water on the stove, can possibly cure it. They open so little in service due to the inherent cooling system overcapacity that they do become a bit stuck open or closed alike from time to time. The cooling concern I have with my Turbo R (BSH20037) is that it runs too darn cool on the highway, especially when slowing for a 100km/h speed zone, it having a new thermostat and a 6-month-old radiator. I may change the thermostat again any day.

RT.
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Paul Yorke
Experienced User
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 17
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, 13 March, 2007 - 10:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Nigel, I thought it might be the pump from your description of where it was dripping.

£150 exchange here in the UK, not sure what the postage each way would be?

Regards, Paul.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 709
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 13 March, 2007 - 10:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

IMPORTANT MODERATOR'S ADVICE:

Unfortunately, I have been away for the past week with very limited internet access. This thread has been very active and , in my opinion, some moderation should have been applied with regard to some of the content. I am extremely grateful to Stephe Boddice for his information which he had no obligation to reveal and which is to our benefit. Similarly, Richard Treacy's experience suggests there may be problems that require further investigation before any change to non-approved coolants is considered.

In similar situations in the past, I have detailed my preference for giving contributors a large amount of freedom to both encourage debate and the expression of their "opinions" provided these remain as opinions rather than "statements of fact". I am not prepared to allow "statements of fact" that are not consistent with the published recommendations of the vehicle manufacturer as some readers may take these personal opinions as fact and act on them to their future detriment.

Readers must carefully consider all advice on public forums such as this before making their own decisions. In my case, I will not deviate from manufacturer's published recommendations as I am not prepared to undertake free "long-term durability testing" for new products with the attendant risk of having to carry the cost of repairs if the product has problems that do not show up until it has been used for a considerable period of time. Any owner considering a change to new products not recommended by the car manufacturer must "do their homework" with regard to all the types now on offer. Any evaluation must also take into account the fact that long-term problems may arise with the use of new products that may not have shown up in initial testing by the manufacturer [a classic Australian example was metallic acrylic car paint which passed accelerated fading tests conducted by the manufacturer yet faded after several years exposure to our climatic conditions.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 657
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Tuesday, 13 March, 2007 - 05:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

If the rad has had a flow check and all is ok, then it is time for a cylinder leak test, if that prove's ok then it may well be localised cylinder heating!
The start of leaking pumps causes can be many.
Get the pump fixed without delay.
Thermostats on R Royce ss types have safty pellets that melt out for safegarding the engine if overheating occures.
Do check to see if the opperation and condition of the themostat.
Before long i am informed it will not be long before the old type antifreeze that most manufacturers have used,RR included will be discontinued.
RR 363 may well be discontinued!
The moderators veiw on useing just the manufactures reccomended products will in effect put all these cars to the scrap yards,hang on recycle yards.
In fact many cars would have gone years ago unless some mods different to the original manufactures specification were not carried out.
Come on chaps lets make this the longest thread in history!
Red ink includded.
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Nigel A Ralph
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 173.118.84.58.dynamic.qld.chariot.net.au
Posted on Tuesday, 13 March, 2007 - 08:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thank you everyone.

David ,the confusion I have is that, with the many boiling radiators I have had over the last 40 years of driving, there is no steam or whatever around the top of the radiator or its hoses. The noises seem to come from down low! There are also no unusual problems with the coolent hoses. The noise seems to come from the block down near the accumulators so could be the hydraulic pressure relief valve. Shall check it out.

Richard, I have a new thermostat from Richard Chapman that went in with my radiator flush and oil change.

I did have a radiator cap problem not so long ago with my wife's Celica, when the engine grumbled on violently after stopping. A new cap fixed the problem, so I am hoping that the pressure is escaping through the water pump leak. The sound and effect isn't quite the same though. (Mind you this engine is 3 times the size!)

Patrick, I assume a cylinder leak would spit moisture out the exhaust in a similar way to a stuffed head gasket. No such evidence! Anyway, such an idea is very scary as I won't be ready for a rebuild for another 2 years.

Paul, that sounds fine. Have you a contact? Shall check out our local people for prices as well and hope for an exchange. Will I stuff anything else if I continue to drive the old girl until the pump is replaced? She is driving so beautifully (except for a little rattle in the passenger front door when I go around a right hand curve - but shall fix that soon) that I really do enjoy driving her to work. After driving crap cars for 40 years, to drive something of quality, even though it is 33 years old, is truly wonderful.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 710
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 14 March, 2007 - 03:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Higel,

I think you have personally found the answer to your problem in the weeping water pump. The cooling system relies on the system pressurisation to raise the boiling point of the coolant to prevent boiling especially in the immediate period after the engine is turned off.

If there is no system pressure as would be the case due to the weep, some boiling immediately the engine is turned off after a reasonable run should be expected more so in a hot climate like NQ.

Now the problem is why didn't I think of this as all the clues were in your posts - is age catching up with me at last?
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 660
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Wednesday, 14 March, 2007 - 05:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Nigel,a cylinder leak test will check each cylinder indevidualy with air pressure,will show up bubbles in the top of the rad.
This will confirm which cylinder or cylinders [gasket, liners] or the side that is the prob.
All local garages [what are left] carry them in the UK as they will also confirm valve, piston blow by, crack in the head etc.
I hope David is correct but my gut feeling subject to your hotter weather is that these cars will run ok [as a test] with the caps off with no boiling probs.
Yes they are a grand car for all occasions,Do keep us informed!
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Paul Yorke
Experienced User
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 18
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, 14 March, 2007 - 06:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Nigel, Have e-mailed you the water pump supplier details.

That was for one to be sent to you, you fit it and send yours back afterwards.

The problem with pump leaks is you can never tell. I've seen ones that nobody suspect of leaking fail completely in one day, others that drip for years and others ( rarely ) that leak for a week or so , then are fine for ages afterwards.

Nobody can tell or even hazzard a guess from here. I assume your mechanic manhandled the fan / front pully to check for movement. ( None in Shadow 1's on, quite a bit on earlier cars. )

As long as it doesn't go catastrophically you will probably be ok locally. Obviously if you're on a highway , travelling at 90 in the scorching heat and it decides to dump all the coolant in one go, that could be a different matter.

On the oil making noises, what oil did you use? Thicker oils, when new, can make a bubbling noise much like the noise when you pour it from a plastic container into the filler spout, or air bubblimg up through mud, a ittle more 'lazy' than water boiling. ( sorry, I'm not a writer! )

Regards, Paul Yorke
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 662
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Thursday, 15 March, 2007 - 04:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Paul compared to me you are a great writer and not copy and pasted at that!

The only thing that i would add would be the noise from a faulty accumulator valve,this may well be a sort of swishing and then a clicking which then stops and starts till pressure stabilises with valve and seat at a lower pressure
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 664
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Thursday, 15 March, 2007 - 08:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Just for the record,please remember that a head gasket etc can start to give up before any water is detected from the exhaust.
This occures due to the higher running cylinder pressure than the cooling system pressure.
Pump leak can be caused by this!
This can give all manner of noise on engine shut down when hot.
Conclusion,blocked rad or thermostat,headgasket,cracked head or liner,localized boiling to cylinder,
Hope this may help with whatever the problem turns out to be.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 665
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Thursday, 15 March, 2007 - 08:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

comment for the Moderator!
I have seen many BLOCK weep holes leaking useing the Glyco antifreeze over the years.
Just a little but it is there.
G-05 to date has shown no leaks, strange or what.
What is your RR doing on Glyco in the weep hole department,i bet you will have some corrosion on the hose to ally connections as well.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 666
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Thursday, 15 March, 2007 - 08:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Update for the Moderators views.
Quote from RT posting!


Content removed as consequence post below from person being quoted.

Further comment re Pat's enquiry about my R-R - this car is no longer under my custodianship. When I last worked on the vehicle, there was no weeping from any of the weep-holes after 106,000 miles. Due to past abuse by a previous custodian in the UK where the coolant was left unchanged for approximately 10 years, there has beeen some corrosion AS EXPECTED from breakdown of the coolant during this period.

Pat, please remember we all express opinions on this forum; some absolutely correct and some partially correct. There are times when we have to agree to disagree. There are no prizes or kudos awarded so there is no need for dogmatic insistence that one point of view prevail.


(Message edited by david_gore on 15 March 2007)
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Nigel A Ralph
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 174.116.84.58.dynamic.qld.chariot.net.au
Posted on Wednesday, 14 March, 2007 - 09:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks everyone,

Paul, the sound is much as you describe (which is quite different to a boiling radiator sound) and I did an oil change immediately after the coolant change. The oil is Nulon for older engines 40-70 so it certainly is very thick.

Perhaps you have hit the nail on the head. I certainly hope so.

Am getting a replacement pump from Robert Chapman Autos in Melbourne for just over $300. It will take a week or so to do the whole operation. Shall let you know the outcome as well as if the noises settle down after the thick oil I use becomes acclimatised to a hot engine in a hot enviroment.

Thanks again everyone for your advice.


(Message approved by david_gore)
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1185
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 15 March, 2007 - 10:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Reluctantly I have no choice but to make this posting.

The statements in the post before the last contain no quotation from me whatsoever. I have never stated anything of the sort. True, I have raised concerns. I offered a link to a commercial paper by a coolant manufacturer for polite discussion.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 711
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 15 March, 2007 - 10:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Please see my comments in the last post by Pat Lockyer above.I have removed the content as it is not true.

Richard, please accept our apologies for any problems/embarassment resulting from the time this material was accessible on this forum.

(Message edited by david_gore on 15 March 2007)
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 667
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Thursday, 15 March, 2007 - 03:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

R Treacy your posting on this forum, panic don't panic! is just one of many information articles found on the internet.

Here is the link.http://www.eetcorp.com/antifreeze/antifreeze-questions.htm

Please,find confirmed word for word page 12-13
Yes this is a polite discussion about hybrid HOAT not OAT.
Quote
"Hybrid organic acid technology (HOAT) uses both inorganic and organic acid additives for long life protection. The objective with HOAT is to provide excellent all around protection and extended drain intervals. HOAT coolants generally can replace or are compatible with green IAT in older vehicles. Chrysler used conventional green IAT coolant until 2001, when they adopted G-05®, a hybrid coolant. Ford followed suit in 2002, dropping the green IAT for G-05® factory fill and extending the drain interval. Variations of HOAT coolants have been around for more than 50 years".

Please note this is a discussion about important issues to the future with regard the running of our classics.
would it help if other links were shown on the confirming the use of g-05 and approval?
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 688
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Tuesday, 03 April, 2007 - 07:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

To-day i have been informed,board level as some folks will say, that the ethylene glycol will cease to be produced in eight to ten years time.
This is because of its of its hazardous makeup.
Long live G-05® HOAT.

Don't throw the dice if you can't pay the price!

Stephe, have looked at the block with liners removed [re pictures] if that is the block you used it looks that advanced corrosion in some places was present before the rebuild!
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John Kilkenny
Experienced User
Username: john_kilkenny

Post Number: 32
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Tuesday, 03 April, 2007 - 11:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The type of anti-corrosion agent used in automotive cooling fluid, whether it be based on silicates, OAT or HOAT has nothing to do with ethylene glycol which is only used to lower the coolant freezing point.
If ethylene glycol is unavailable there are other suitable less poisonous glycols, though these will probably be more expensive, and even some alcohols might be used.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 689
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Wednesday, 04 April, 2007 - 07:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi John, hum Regarding the Ethylene glyco being dropped,not a day to soon for its toxic makeup.
but hang on the other drawback is that it turns into a corrosive compound as it decomposes after one to two years max.
The propylene glycol does the same.

Switzerland and Austria have outlawed ethylene glyco for all auto use.
Workers in european countries have banned it and that it is not used in industrial plants.

The Oat can mess up the liner seals and create leaks,due to many failings of DIY use.
Once a leaks are confirmed no changes of coolant will cure them.

The refrence to OAT in the HOAT is for the organic acid inhibiter called benzoate.
Hoat G-05 with the silicates added to make it less aggressive to seals and gaskets, now we are talking of somthing that will give extended coolant change intervals 5+years 100,000 miles.
Tested and used by Mercedes for over twenty years and now used in all new Daimler Chrysler and Ford vehicles + more.
But when the ethylene is ceased to be manufactured then yes you could use the propylene but every change after one year max thats going backwards maybe.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1210
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 04 April, 2007 - 09:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

You say:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Switzerland and Austria have outlawed ethylene glyco for all auto use.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

That was surely for wine additives in 1986.

Funny. I live in Switzerland. When does this ban start ? Tomorrow ? Without warning? Mind you, the last time I bought ethylene glycol coolant was yesderday, so maybe the laws here have changed overnight. That would be a first ever for Switzerland.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 690
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Wednesday, 04 April, 2007 - 05:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Funny that!i am sure i have read a flyer or product guide saying it was outlawed in the above countries.
will have a look to-day.
Do keep your receipt as this may prove very interesting indeed!
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 691
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Thursday, 05 April, 2007 - 07:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Found the product guide that mentions the above.
This is part of the text.

"Ethylene glycol has been used for so long; why is it now "bad news" ? It has always been "bad news", but it was also cheaper than propylene glycol. The two come from the same base compound and are manufactured similarly. The price of the two is balancing out today, and propylene glycol can be expected to continue to go down in relative price as it is used in larger amounts.

Ethylene glycol is a very toxic chemical. It is listed by the State of California as a cancer - causing agent, and it is noted as a leading cause of accidental poisoning of dogs and cats when disposed of carelessly. It decomposes into oxalic acid, which damages the kidneys, to say nothing of automotive metals. Switzerland and Austria have outlawed the sale of ethylene glycol for auto use, and worker's unions in several European countries have demanded that it not be used in industrial plants".
Hum,are they telling porkys!

Regarding the two types in my opinion they are history as HOAT G-05 is the way forward.


(Message edited by pat lockyer on 05 April 2007)
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 692
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Thursday, 05 April, 2007 - 09:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Fact, a picture of advanced corrosion in the alloy block of a car that has suffered through the years with the incorrect cooling propertys.
A common type of antifreeze with no distilled water?

Water leaks after coolant renewal.
The blame for the new leaks was said to be caused by the OAT coolant within weeks of refill,useing OAT is not good but it is impossible for the failings "leaks" to arrive in such a short time with oat.
In my opinion other factors were present.

Picture of the corrosion at rebuild maybe.

Picture removed as it has been used without permission and is "out of context" with this topic as it was never intended for use as an illustration of actual engine condition but rather to show the installed position of the liner "O" rings.

MODERATOR INTERVENTION and EDITING: Pat, please keep your posts "on topic" and refrain from trying to provoke other contributors as you attempted here. If this form of posting continues; I will have no alternative to recommending to the forum management that your privilege of direct posting revert to delayed posting after administrator/moderator authorisation.

(Message edited by david_gore on 05 April 2007)

(Message edited by david_gore on 06 April 2007)
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 693
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Thursday, 05 April, 2007 - 03:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Sorry David but the reference was it was in reply to the post that was put up and then removed by RT.
I can send a copy of the posting to you if you find it necessary.
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Nigel A Ralph
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 98.116.84.58.dynamic.qld.chariot.net.au
Posted on Thursday, 05 April, 2007 - 10:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi all

I do apologise for my initial posting becoming the focul point for a disagreement.

MOst of us know absolutely nothing about the refined technicalities that experienced experts enter into. We are basically interested in how we can overcome our existing problems without having to resort to specialist mechanics (plus the cost) to do it for us.

Richard, I do trust your advice implicitly. But I do have a confession. What would you advise if I said that when I took the thermostat cap off there was no thermostat inside? (Please remember I live in a warm climate.) The car is running beautifully, so beautifully, in fact, that I am concerned that something must be wrong!





(Message approved by david_gore)
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 716
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, 06 April, 2007 - 05:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Nigel,

There is no need to apologise and, in fact, we should be grateful for your post as it has drawn attention to a potential problem that we might not otherwise been made aware of and I again thank Stephe for his valuable contribution. The outcome of his negotiations with the manufacturer concerned will be the definitive answer to whether a problem exists and what needs to be done to avoid similar problems in the future. Until this time, I believe most users of this forum will make their own decision after considering the various opinions of our contributors. I am sure our regular users are eminently capable of making the important differentiation between expressions of opinion and statements of fact. The essential fact in this discussion is that the original reference was to OAT coolant and not HOAT. Pat appears to have overlooked this important point in his determination to defend HOAT coolants which were not used let alone being responsible for Stephe's problem.

My small contribution to the missing thermostat is based on my own experience with non-RR vehicles which indicates the rate of engine wear over time is greater when there is no thermostat installed. My opinion on the cause is the absence of the thermostat means the engine does not operate at a constant temperature after "warming up" causing the internal clearances to change depending on whether it is a cool, warm or hot day. The rate of wear will increase when clearances are tight and decrease when clearances are loose. The cool,warm and hot conditions are dependent on the temperature range experienced in the local environment rather than the actual temperature. The thermostat disregards the ambient temperature range and allows the engine to operate at a relatively stable internal temperature regardless of the outside temperature.
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Paul Yorke
Experienced User
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 27
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, 06 April, 2007 - 06:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Nigel,

Laughing at 'The car is running beautifully, so beautifully, in fact, that I am concerned that something must be wrong!'

I know the feeling!!


I would also add that if the engine oil is too cool then it will not work properly, causing excesive wear. The viscous coupling will maintain a higher temperature to some extent, but will not help with bringing the engine to the correct temperature quickly enough. most engine wear is in the cold to warm periods. Your 10 - 40 ( or whatever ) oil will be at 10 all the time.

Fit a thermostat with lead shot to be on the safe side.

Glad to hear she is running well :-)
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 694
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Saturday, 07 April, 2007 - 05:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Nigel,keeping to the original topic, now i assume the water pump has now been replaced.
Has the radiator been flow tested and that all conections from hoses seals gaskets through settlement are not leaking with the new coolant, antifreeze can sure find any [failings] leaks!

When the thermostat was not installed did the heater blow hot air in a short period of time if tested?
Now you are running without the thermostat,has it stopped the boiling type noise that you mentioned.
The themostat must be fitted in normal use for quick warm up but can be removed for some tests.
Subject to your reply you could have other faults that may need testing.



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Nigel A Ralph
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 138.115.84.58.dynamic.qld.chariot.net.au
Posted on Saturday, 07 April, 2007 - 11:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

HI all

I discovered that I didn't have a thermostat when I was doing my engine coolant flush and put one in with the new coolant.

I have noticed no change in the running of the engine whatsoever.

The rumbling (boiling) type sounds have ceased so I assume that they must have been related to Paul's advice about new thick oil taking a little while to adjust to the engine.

Anyway I now have a new pump installed and have no leaks other than airconditioner condensation. The car is still running beautifully so I'm waiting with bated breath for something serious happen. Many thanks to everyone for their advice.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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bob uk
Unregistered guest
Posted From: brig-cache-4.server.ntli.net
Posted on Tuesday, 10 April, 2007 - 03:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Check the time from cold to heater warm and you should find it is quite quick.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Gus Brogden
New User
Username: gus

Post Number: 3
Registered: 2-2008
Posted on Friday, 16 May, 2008 - 03:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I've been bringing SRF31065 back to life after years of mechanical neglect by previous owners. It seems that in their younger years these autos seen lots of car washes and vacuumming and no time on the rack until something couldn't be ignored any longer. I think that it's during repair "sticker shock" that new owners are conteplated. I felt she ran so cool that I questioned the water sender. It was due for a coolant flush and new stat anyway, and lo and behold! I found the stat that was installed in 1977 stuck wide open. A new stat and flush,and she warmed up to normal quickly (never did this before)and she actually RAN MUCH BETTER.
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Gus Brogden
New User
Username: gus

Post Number: 7
Registered: 2-2008
Posted on Tuesday, 29 July, 2008 - 05:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Am I correct in assuming that G-05 is HOAT? I spoke to the dealer in my province in Canada about what antifreeze to use in my shadow, and I was told, "use the green stuff". Hardly the advice I wanted from a RR/B dealer. I was told to just get it at a local parts store, as the RR/B dealer is 300 miles away. I was surpised they didn't have Crewe antifreeze, they are only one of two RR/B dealers in Canada. Do you think I am correct about G-05?
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Paul Yorke
Prolific User
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 180
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, 29 July, 2008 - 06:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

LOL, some people are hard to please. :-)

It's good simple advice though. Use the old type ethylene glycol anti-freeze which is usually Green or Blue. Do not get G-05 , Hoat, Oat or "suits all vehicles" , new and improved , etc.

You will also probably find that it is the cheapest one available. Don't be lured by any "more expensive must be best" thoughts.

Old type anti-freeze and changed every 2 or three years is a much better (only, IMHO) option.

If your tap water is very hard, find something filtered.

Good luck!
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Andrew Radford
Experienced User
Username: thequalitybuilder

Post Number: 11
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Thursday, 26 November, 2015 - 10:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi All
Im kind of getting there with my 98 Brooklands heating but still have a problem, the aircon is now all fine, get full cold and when switch to hot get heat initially but then cold. If I really give it some welly i do get heat but it then dies back.
Is the heater matrix air locked? as if i give it more welly I get heat again, Or is it that the engine is running too cold? ive replaced the thermostat already. If the engine is too cold how would I know, could it be the viscous fan?, temp gauge is in the middle of the white area so seems fine. Any ideas much appreciated.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1400
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, 26 November, 2015 - 11:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Andrew, It sounds as though flow through the heater matrix is your problem.

Partially blocked core. Flush it with a garden hose in both directions. The water should flow quickly and easily.

A water tap not working (electrical)

A water tap not opening fully (mechanical) There are known faults with these not opening and water pressure causing problems.



If you turn the fans to their slowest speed ( or disconnect them. Leave to run for a few minutes, then put the fans back on. Do you get a good amount of heat that trails off to cold or luke warm. This indicates that hot water is getting into the heater matrix , hence the hot air, but the flow is not sufficient to replace the water as it is cooled down by the fans.

Cheers, Paul.


Workshop Manual Suggestions:

26/11/15 TSD 6000 06-2008 [English] / Air conditioning Page 1
(OID = <130095_1_1_1> UID = <1839> Dataset = <tsd>)
WORKSHOP MANUAL C ELECTRICAL 90-91 TOOLS ELECTRICAL 92-93 ELECTRICAL 94-96
PARTS CATALOGUE 04 ELECTRICAL 97-98
Air conditioning
Applicable to
All Rolls-Royce (excluding Phantom VI) and Bentley motor cars from vehicle identification numbers
(VIN)
Four door motor cars * SCBZS0T03HCX20001 *
Two door motor cars * SCAZD42A6HCX20011 *
Introduction
On some two door and four door motor cars (after the above VIN range) during certain operating
conditions, all heat can be lost from the air conditioning system.
Description
There are two vehicle operation modes where a loss of heating from the air conditioning system may
occur.
• A) When the motor car is being driven at sustained high speeds.
• B) When the motor car is left idling for an excessive length of time.
The purpose of this Product Support Information Sheet is to enable service personnel to accurately
diagnose and rectify these complaints.
Procedure
Loss of heat at sustained speeds
Description of fault
A gradual cooling of the air emitted from the air conditioning system at sustained high speeds until
virtually little or no heat is available.
Selecting a hotter setting on the air conditioning system temperature selectors gives no increase in
temperature.
When slowing down the vehicle, after high speed driving, the heat is restored.
None of the items above are accompanied with any blend flap movement whatsoever.
Reason for fault
A gradual degrading of the return spring within the electrically operated water tap.
At sustained high speeds, there is sufficient pressure in the coolant system to keep the faulty
water tap in a closed position.
When the motor car slows down and the pressure within the coolant system drops, the water tap
will cycle normally.
Remedy
Replace the electrically operated water tap with a new tap of the same type.
Road test the vehicle and make sure that all normal functions of the air conditioning system are
now working correctly.
Loss of heat when idling excessively
Description of fault
A gradual cooling of the air emitted from the air conditioning system during prolonged idling.
Selecting a hotter setting on the air conditioning system temperature selectors gives no increase in
temperature.
26/11/15 TSD 6000 06-2008 [English] / Air conditioning Page 2
(OID = <130095_1_1_1> UID = <1839> Dataset = <tsd>)
Increasing the engine rev/min slightly above idle restores the heat to its full extent. This again is
not accompanied with any blend flap movement.
Reason for fault
There is an insufficient coolant flow through the heater matrix to sustain the required hot air during
a prolonged idle period.
Remedy
To improve the flow of coolant through the heater matrix at idle, an auxiliary coolant pump can be
fitted into the system.
Note:
The auxiliary coolant pump kit (RH 3032) will only be issued with prior authorization from the Area
Service Manager.
Procedure (For fitting the auxiliary coolant pump)
• 1.) Drain the coolant system.
• 2.) Cut the rubber strips (UE 71700) down to a length of 136 mm (see fig.
C6-1
001619
C6-1 Pump mounting strips C6-1).
• 3.) Attach the coolant pump to the mounting bracket using the worm drive clips (SPM 1985).
Place the rubber strips (UE 71700) between the pump body and the mounting bracket.
• 4.) Fit the bracket and pump assembly to the edge of the suspension turret (see fig.
C6-2
001620
C6-2 Auxiliary pump mounting position
1 Position of longer turret bolts to enable the mounting of the pump bracket
C6-2). Substitute the longer suspension turret bolts (UA 155/Z and UA 106/Z) as also indicated in
figure C6-2. It may be necessary to bend the mounting bracket slightly to ensure that the pump
does not foul the dipstick handle or any part of the wiring loom.
• 5.) Remove the heater feed hose from the engine end and cut down as shown in figure
C6-3
001621
C6-3 Heater feed hose C6-3. Fit onto the electric coolant pump outlet using a worm drive clip
(SPC 3256).
• 6.) Cut down the hose (UD 24913) as shown in figure
C6-4
001622
C6-4 New hose C6-4 and connect it to the electric coolant pump inlet using a worm drive clip
(SPC 3246). Connect the other end of the hose to the heater feed pipe on the engine using the
original worm drive clip.
• 7.) Wire up the auxiliary coolant pump as shown in figure
C6-5
001623
C6-5 Wiring diagram for auxiliary pump installation
1 New wiring
2 Original wiring
3 Water tap
4 Auxiliary coolant pump
5 Water tap relay
26/11/15 TSD 6000 06-2008 [English] / Air conditioning Page 3
(OID = <130095_1_1_1> UID = <1839> Dataset = <tsd>)
C6-5. Use the wiring and terminals supplied in kit RH 3032.
Note:
On the auxiliary coolant pump the Black cable is Positive and the Brown cable is Negative.
• 8.) Refill the coolant system (refer to TSD 4700, Chapter L, Section L3). Ensure that the
auxiliary coolant pump operates only when the water tap is open and that there are no coolant
leaks.
• 9.) Road test the motor car ensuring that the air conditioning system works satisfactorily.
Defect and Repair code manual
For loss of heat at sustained speeds
Defect code Repair code Time
0426010049 04260100R 1.5 hours
For loss of heat when idling excessively
Defect code
0400000032
Repair code Time
04000070S 3.0 hours
Parts required
For loss of heat at sustained speeds
Part number Description Quantity
UR 27683 Electric water tap 1
For loss of heat when idling excessively
Part number Description Quantity
RH 3032 Auxiliary water pump kit 1
Hil/SH
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1815
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 26 November, 2015 - 01:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Paul,

Welcome back - your contributions have been missed.

Regards David
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Andrew Radford
Experienced User
Username: thequalitybuilder

Post Number: 12
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Friday, 27 November, 2015 - 05:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Paul

Many Thanks for that, I did today check the heater tap function and found that its exactly as you state above in item 2, if I disconnect the electric from the tap I get plenty of heat, without the pump in the above which i have read, if I reconnect the electric it goes off again, so I guess I have a control issue somewhere, I did put the test rig on it last year but the only fault I got was the 40 deg sensor (now resolved) since then though the ambient temp sensor was removed from the bumper holder by a paint shop, and then put back, is this the same sensor which would cause the ice light to come on on the display? If so it is working I guess as that has recently come on.
Any suggestions or should I get the test rig back and recheck? Very Many Thanks Andy
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 761
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Friday, 27 November, 2015 - 07:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The water tap is either on or off. No in betweens

With the link to the servo motor disconnected. Observe the throw of the link. I suspect the adjustment is wrong.

The servo must be working because when you reconnect the servo is shutting valve.

The link could have gone over centre and is now working back to front.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1401
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, 27 November, 2015 - 09:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bob - wrong car.

Andy, I think the outside temp and the Air con sensor are separate on your year.

It could be disconnected or tucked into the wing and in a hotter place. Do you get any heat on initial start up if you have it on defrost or on the full red 'click'.?

Have you checked the wiring diagrams?
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1402
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, 27 November, 2015 - 09:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

David, Thank you.

Busy busy :-(

So glad to see you doing so well.

Keep up the good work. Best wishes as always, Paul.
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Andrew Radford
Experienced User
Username: thequalitybuilder

Post Number: 13
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Friday, 27 November, 2015 - 11:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thank you Robert & Paul, Yes the servo is working ok, its defiantly a control issue as have 14v at the tap (which closes it) when it should be 0V, if I turn heating to off it goes to 0v.
Paul I was getting heat on defrost before. Ill try and freeze spray near the front bumper sensor and see if I get an ice reading. or look at the wiring diagram. I've struggled to find a diagram which is completely correct to the heating, so was unsure what to trust in that respect but will take another look. Again many thanks ill let you know and massive thanks for sharing your knowledge. Andy