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Dwayne Kennemore
Experienced User
Username: dkennemo

Post Number: 10
Registered: 12-2003

Posted on Friday, 13 February, 2004 - 05:34 am:

David,

I called Albers in Zionsville and was told that the 1998 change in the RR363 was a hoax, and that he visited the factory twice on this issue and RR issued a release (a technical document?) indicating that RR363 is just fine, and that the base of the fluid, not the lubricant, was what changed.

I'm confused.

If it's just castor oil that's mixed with otherwise normal brake fluid, why can't I just mix 83% Castrol LMA and 17% castor oil and use that?

Thanks,
Dwayne

David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 200
Registered: 4-2003

Posted on Friday, 13 February, 2004 - 07:18 pm:

Hi Dwayne,

All the field experience from around the world since 1998 indicates there was a change in the performance of the fluid and coincidentally the colour changed as well.

In another post I referred to the fact that R-R & Castrol will never admit to a change in formulation/performance of RR363 for legal liability reasons given the numerous reports of problems from around the world and the propensity for class actions in certain countries and I do not expect this situation to change. The only way we will ever find out is for a comparative chemical analysis of the fluids however there are limited number of laboratories which can do this, the cost is high and the labs are associated with the industry.

The castor oil/DOT3 formulation was an initiative from the Citroen fraternity however I am not prepared to use it without the reassurance of a chemical analysis - the only exception would be if I had a car which was due for a complete hydraulic overhaul where I would strip down and check measure critical components and then run the test fluid for at least two years before undertaking the overhaul.

I remain concerned about the inability of Castrol and R-R/B to properly and definitively address this issue for owners - I have been reliably informed certain authorised R-R/B service dealers have been given "special" RR363 for cars with persistent hydraulic noise problems.

Dwayne Kennemore
Frequent User
Username: dkennemo

Post Number: 11
Registered: 12-2003

Posted on Saturday, 14 February, 2004 - 02:46 pm:

You know, if you initiate a class action in the United States you can find out in discovery whether the formulation changed and, if so, how. If it did change in an inferior way than all the RR and Bentley owners affected can potentially receive reimbursement for any inferior fluid they've purchased. That's a lot of money in total.

BobUK
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 195.93.33.11

Posted on Tuesday, 17 February, 2004 - 05:56 am:

I have been thinking very carefull about RR363 and I think that the main problem is the rams.

They groan if the fluid is not oily enough.

I ran my car on DOT4 for 13 years and the only problem I got was when the rear springs sagged bringing the Ride height into operation --- I now have RR363 in because of the noise.

The pumps are very similar to diesel injector pumps which rely on close tolerances as well. Diesel fuel is about the same oilyness as DOT4.

I have seen lots of injector pumps that have done 500,000 miles with servicing only.

The diesel pump also has to meter the fuel. The diesel pump is a good example of high precision mass production ----put NASA to shame.

However the diesel pump is protected by a very good fuel filter and on my van there are 2 other filters before the fuel gets to lift pump.

The lift pump pumps the fuel through the main filter and the excess goes back to tank so the fuel is being continually filtered.

The RR system has a filter in the reservoir. Because the pumps are gravity feed the filters are coarse which will allow particles to get to the pumps.

nearly every diesel pump that I have seen fail prematurely was because dirt got in and ruined the bores.

Diesel pumps run at much higher pressure than brakes. 10 times more in some cases.

I would recommend that only RR 363 be used it has actually fallen in price over the years. I pay �6 a litre the same as 10 years ago.

I take very carefull precautions when topping up the brakes. I seal cans immediately and if I am unsure about any brake fluid I throw the fluid away.

I think us RR owners panic over DOT fluids me included.

This is what the local RR bloke told me. DOT 4 is OK for Shadows. Wrong fluid is serious and total brake failure is rare.

I should think Jag and Merc fans never give DOT a second thought.

David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 45
Registered: 4-2003

Posted on Saturday, 21 June, 2003 - 09:09 am:

It has come to my attention that the 1998 change in the formulation of RR363 by Castrol as detailed in a recent issue of "Praeclarum" appears to have involved the removal of the lubrication additive due to its non-availability. It appears that this change was approved by R-R apparently without any testing of the new formulation to identify any potential problems.

Following a discussion in the Citroen Car club movement about substituting RR363 for Citroen LHS fluid, a manufacturer of LHS fluid did comparison testing of this fluids with very disturbing results; the warm and hot viscosity values were substantially different with the RR363 having much lower values implying much reduced lubrication properties. Any lack of lubrication will have significant effects on hydraulic pump life as well as the problem of height adjusting ram noise which bought the problem to our attention in the first place.

I am very unhappy about this situation as I have been a very strong advocate of the exclusive use of RR363 in this and other forums due to the importance of adequate lubrication for the high pressure hydraulic pumps. The apparent lack of factual information to owners [as opposed to servicing dealers who may have received some information] from both Castrol and R-R about removal of what I regard as the most critical component in the fluid is disturbing. Of even more concern to me is the fact that two Companies I trusted and respected for their technical information and honesty in addressing problems appear to have betrayed that trust especially when specifically asked about the changes in the fluid as a consequence of problems being experienced by owners.

Until such time as the formulation of RR363 reverts to its original specification, I suggest Shadow owners should seriously consider using Citroen LHS fluid as an alternative as this complies with the Citroen specification for their hydraulic system which is the basis of the Shadow system. I am preparing an article for "Praeclarum" which will include more detail from the testing of the fluids.

Richard Treacy
Yet to post message
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 24
Registered: 4-2003

Posted on Saturday, 21 June, 2003 - 08:20 pm:

It's about time Castrol and R-R addressed this. In the Citroen car clubs they are recommending 17% Castrol R (caster oil racing oil) and 83% DOT4. This is because LHS is becoming hard to find now. In the UK the Shadow people are suffering badly now. They are experiencing ram noise problems and pump failures as the New RR363 has been around longer there. I am also a strong RR363 advocate, but it seems that the time has come to address the issue head on.

I'm open to almost all discussions on this subject, but brake fluid alone will not do.

Greg Churm
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 202.154.104.141

Posted on Friday, 27 June, 2003 - 02:01 pm:

Hello Richard

I know I have mentioned this before and your reaction then was understandably sceptical.

Canola Oil.

Bob Dirks who runs a 1957 Citroen DS19 as his daily driver was at the last Citroen Car Club meeting and again reports no problems so far.Bob is a country boy through and through and it does have the ring of the bush mechanic to it. However it seems to work.

I have added a thread on the Australian Citroen discussion board titled Canola Oil. I would expect quite a few posts to it so you may see some feedback from people actually using it

cheers

Greg

http://members3.boardhost.com/citroen/

David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 52
Registered: 4-2003

Posted on Tuesday, 01 July, 2003 - 06:50 pm:

As part of my ongoing research into hydraulic fluids including the substantial differences between RR363 and Citroen LHS fluid; I have received much appreciated advice and assistance from members of the Citroen Car Club through a series of posts on their Bulletin Board. I have described the basics of the R-R hydraulic system as derived from the Citroen patents and several Citroen owners have expressed interest in seeing more details of the R-R system. To facilitate this, I am using the capabilities of our site to give an easily accessible illustration of the R-R system.

1. Hydraulic Pump Location.
clip 1