| Author | Message | ||
     colinofsweden Unregistered guest Posted From: 217.78.24.65 |
My knowledge is unbelievably limited and I have a rear passenger window that goes down fine but refuses to go up. The fault started months ago with the window going up if I had an hour to spare. Then, it went up in tiny stages but always made it in the end. I have taken off the inner door cover to lubricate the chain and that made it even worse! Now it won't go up at all. I can see that the window motor doesn't even try to move. It certainly doesn't seem to be a problem with the mechanism, as I can wind it up easily by hand. I hope NOT to have to try getting the motor out. Does anybody have a simple way of explaining how the window drives up and if there is something like a limit switch that could be stopping it from moving up? Here's hoping Colin Moderator's Comment: Hi Colin, There is a great deal of information regarding electric windows on this site and I am positive the answer to your problem is already contained in this information. I repectfully suggest you use the "search" facility using the key words "electric windows" and you will find a lot of useful reading and save our regular contributors having to repeat information they have provided in the past. The following links will also help: http://au.rrforums.net/forum/messages/17001/323.html http://au.rrforums.net/forum/messages/17001/1176.html http://au.rrforums.net/forum/messages/17001/1713.html http://au.rrforums.net/forum/messages/17001/205.html (Message edited by david_gore on March 30, 2006) (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 978 Registered: 4-2003 |
Further to David's post, to update email adresses and so on, you may access the information to improve the windows, with schematics, directly on: http://homepage.swissonline.ch/Richard_Treacy/Window%20Lifts.html | ||
| colinofsweden Unregistered guest Posted From: 217.78.24.62 |
Wow! Thankyou Richard. There is alot to look at there. I tried searching on the site but never found all that stuff you gave me links for. As you can see, I even managed to put my qustion in "archives". I must be a bit dim! Glad you found it though. You have been very helpful. I'll surely let you know if (when) I get it fixed. Thanks again Colin (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 979 Registered: 4-2003 |
Take care: the modification mentioned on the above site only applies to cars post-1972 chassis 13754. Those later cars have permanent magnet window motors with the armature polarity controlling the direction. Earlier cars have two fields to control the direction, and already have an armature relay. The earlier system is generally more robust. If yours is a 1969 model as stated, then I would be checking the armature relay and voltages throughout. The original schematic for your car is, however, shown on the linked site. Question: is the window equally slow when operated by the driver or rear passenger ? | ||
| colinofsweden Unregistered guest Posted From: 84.216.86.49 |
Yes it is 1969. I did notice that all the references are for later cars. The schematic is brilliant tho'. As I said, my understanding is horribly limited but I think I'm right in assuming that as the window goes down perfectly, using either door switch but won't move up at all now, also from either switch, that the armature and relay must be ok. When I try to send the window up, even with a lot of help by pushing it from below, the motor only wanders a little in EITHER direction or does nothing at all. Would it be possible to swap two wires (red,green,yellow,yellow/black are the colours) and see if the window then drives up but not down? Looking at the diagram again, I suppose that if I disconnect the relay, I could check the resistance of the two windings and see if they are different? I'm straining and thinking aloud here. Ha! I do so hope that I won't need to take that motor out. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| John Kilkenny Experienced User Username: john_kilkenny Post Number: 13 Registered: 6-2005 |
Because the relay is energised through the non-selected field winding and this seems to be OK when the down switch is operated, it is likely that a bad connection exists in the UP field winding circuit, either within the motor or outside. The red and green wires are the UP and DOWN field windings. Swap them at the motor. If the window goes up when you press the DOWN switch the UP field winding is OK. If the fault is now getting the window down you will need to check for poor connections in the wiring outside the motor. | ||
| colinofsweden Unregistered guest Posted From: 217.78.24.85 |
Thanks John. I have already tried the following.. Swapped red with green and the window doesn't go up OR down. The relay always comes in ok. Disconnected the relay and cheched resistance of both windings and both are about 2 ohms. Checked voltage on the motor and I get 10.7 volts on the red or green when the relavent direction is selected. Now I'm having a cup of tea, wearing a confused expression as I look at the foot of snow we still have here in Avesta in Sweden and ponder the window motor and the much bigger problem of what to do about the attempted break in we had here yesterday! Unbelievable. Sweden! It's so nice here and safe and and... As you say down there (if you're in Australia) "life wasn't meant to be easy!" By the way, we're actually from England. We moved here to escape the pressures of life in London. Ya know.. traffic, breakins and of course, window motors!. Ha! I won't give up! (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| colinofsweden Unregistered guest Posted From: 84.216.85.35 |
Well! The story has changed again. I retried the wireswap test, red with green and this time, the window still goes down but not up. The last thing I tried was very technical... while trying to send the window up, I poked a thin plastic rod between the armature and motor casing and the window started to go up. The first time it has even tried to go up. When I took the rod away, it stopped again. I cleaned the gap between the bearing casing and armature and it seems to be working! Why? Brush related? A short? Why did it go down ok? I must be missing something. Is glass papering the armature a good idea? I'm going to leave it till tomorrow and see if it still works after a night off. It's not responding to logic so I maybe should treat it like a pet! If it continues to work, I only need to know what is the best thing to lube the runners with and if there is any kind of lube that I must avoid. It's my first window you see. Now I must get on with worrying about people who try to break doors down! Thanks Colin (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 557 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Colin, I suspect you may have a common fault with well-used electric motors known as "poling". This is caused by bearing wear which allows the armature to come in contact with the field coils/magnets when current is applied jamming it and preventing rotation. The greatest load on the bearings will be when the motor is lifting the window and the bearing wear will not be uniform around its circumference - this is why the motor will still work when lightly loaded whilst lowering the window but locks up under load when lifting it. Unfortunately you will have to remove the motor to have it overhauled however the positive side is that replacing the bearings is a straight forward job for any auto electrical specialist. | ||
| John Kilkenny Experienced User Username: john_kilkenny Post Number: 14 Registered: 6-2005 |
Colin, It's most annoying when problems disappear without an obvious fix ! By the way, the readings of 10.7 volts on the field wires will be on the non-selected winding as most of the voltage drop will be across the relay. See the attached diagram. I suspect that your suggestion that the problem is brush related could be right. The rear window motors don't get a lot of use and I have experienced stuck brushes before which can sometimes affect the motor in only one direction. Check that the brushes are free tomove in their holders and if the fault is still there try moving the brushes slightly when operating the switch. I would also wiggle the various wires around while operating the switch just in case there is a bad connection somewhere. Regards, John  | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 980 Registered: 4-2003 |
Just a small point for John: the thermal cutout affects the armature only (see the diagram below) and does not isolate the fields or window brake. This is a safety feature, but is unfortunately absent in cars from SY chassis 13754 as they do not rely on a solenoid-operated brake to hold the window position. This means that if a window jams for example on a child's finger, then holding the switch on will open the cutout. If the switch is still held on, then the brake will stay released and the motor will lower itself by gravity. I can assure you that this is true, and exactly how the windows on our T-Series behave if you hold the switch on for too long after a window has closed: it glides downwards slowly for as long as the switch is held active. It also provides for a useful and simple test for this topic if the voltages do appear correct. If the window is slow or stopped with the switch applied, and the thermal cutout does not trip and the window does not start to lower whilst holding the switch on, it would suggest that the motor brushes are faulty. If it does trip but the window does not go down by gravity and cannot be pushed down gently by hand, it would suggest a binding solenoid-operated brake or poling in the motor. RT.  | ||
| John Kilkenny Experienced User Username: john_kilkenny Post Number: 15 Registered: 6-2005 |
Richard, I rechecked the circuit diagrams for cars up to Serial 6000 and while my diagram showed a wrong connection for the solenoid (see correct version below)the circuit operation is the same, as the armature plus the field windings are fed via the safety cutout. This means that once the cutout operates,the relay will drop out and the brake will come on, regardless of whether a switch is held down. If the switch is held down until the cutout makes again the brake will release but also the motor will operate again. I think the reason for separating the motor and solenoid is to limit the cutout operating current.  | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 984 Registered: 4-2003 |
OK, the last schematic is quite correct and sorry. I shall correct the schematics I produced in 2002. However, it does not change the functionality. If the cutout opens, the brake solenoid will still energise on the switch via the armature winding and a field winding, so the effect is the same as I described: when the cutout is open, the brake solenoid will still activate if the switch is closed, and the windows should move down slowly by gravity as there is no braking. Furthermore, the relay should pick up by virtue of the second current path shown below. RT.  | ||
| John Kilkenny Experienced User Username: john_kilkenny Post Number: 16 Registered: 6-2005 |
My apologies Richard, you are quite correct. An ingenious arrangement ! John | ||
| colinofsweden Unregistered guest Posted From: 84.216.86.163 |
Thankyou all, for that wealth of knowledge. It's quite astonishing that there can be so much in an electric window! I've certainly learned a lot and the circuit diagrams are fantastic. The first suggestion of "poling" looked like a winner but I'm still hoping it's not that! There seems to be no play in the bearings at all and I even wondered if the bearings could be turned, to either prove or even fix the problem. The window is still working but is better if I put that plastic probe in. I was suprised to learn the possibility of bad brush contact causing a problem in only one direction. I wish I could get them out, without removing the motor. It looks impossible. There is some rust or corrosion around the brush fixings and I suppose there is some kind of lubricant that cound be applied to that area (graphite?). There is a bit of sparking happening on one of the brushes but not the other. I feel confident and hopeful that a sticky brush is the answer. The window doesn't really go down very quickly and up VERY slowly. I must try some kind of lubrication of all areas while the door's in bits. Thankyou all again for all the help. You certainly are experts! Colin (Message approved by david_gore) |
