| Author | Message | ||
     Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 3142 Registered: 06-2009 |
Well, there's a good news and bad news result from the +12V to the pump: Good: Car was able to start and she's out of the garage. Bad: I had an absolute fountain of fuel squirting out from around the left side carb fuel filter housing (which I did not realize until I was out of the garage and lifted the hood/bonnet). I know what I need to get as far as a replacement filter, as I've done these before. But what I cannot seem to recall or find is the size of the O-ring that goes in the groove on the carb filter housing lid, nor what material(s) are suitable. I can easily look up material(s) but the size is trickier. If anyone knows off the top of their head I'd appreciate knowing. Thanks, Brian | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 2128 Registered: 04-2009 |
Be careful Brian. You have the recipe for an ugly fire there. Why is there a leak at that point in the first place? no matter what state the filter is in you should not have a leak. I always thought that there was a compression fitting there and not an o ring. Thanks Omar | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 3143 Registered: 06-2009 |
Omar, It's an O-ring. I've replaced the fuel filters in LRK37110 and there are O-rings that surround the little "cap" that pushes in on top of the spring that holds the filter down and in place in the carb filter housing itself. Believe me, I know that I have the potential for a nasty engine fire hence the reason the car has been turned off and will not be restarted until I have the new O-ring seal. I just tried an AS568-210 but it's got a cross section that's just a tiny bit too large. It looks like an AS568-116 is the most likely correct fit, but I have to get one and try it to make certain of that. Brian | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 3144 Registered: 06-2009 |
By the way, I wasn't clear yesterday in that the fountain was coming from around the "top lid" of the left carb fuel filter housing. It's the lid that has a small hole in the center to allow you to thread in a bolt to allow you to pull it easily. Once in place there is a screw with a washer on one side and a screw with part of a bracket on the other that holds the thing in place from accidentally popping out. And since pictures are worth a thousand words:   The O-Ring in this photo is the slightly too large AS568-210 with a tiny bit of oil on it to see if it would pop into place. I know from having done this before that it shouldn't take that much effort, so the next size down with the same ID (about 3/4 inch) and a slightly smaller CS is the -116 Brian Brian | ||
| Hubert Kelly Frequent User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 425 Registered: 03-2012 |
Looking good Brian, I figured out the bolt idea too. Have ya checked out the price that Rolls Royce Silver Shadow's are making at Park Ward motors USA, you might be sitting on gold mine | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 2252 Registered: 05-2012 |
Don't forget that EPDM O-rings are not recommended for gasoline. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2435 Registered: 09-2004 |
Don't think the o ring is the problem but disturbing may put a temporary end to the problem. The units have a small restrictor that keep a small pressure in the system feeding the float chambers, the surplus fuel returns to the fuel tank stopping vaporization that would happen if the fuel sat in the hot fuel lines above the engine. E10 left in the units with a car that has not been used for many a year may be a cause! Run LPG to put an end to running petrol with all its problems and a clean envioroment. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 3145 Registered: 06-2009 |
Unless the principles of the SU pump system have changed entirely and miraculously, there is no return system to the fuel tank. The pump stops when sufficient back pressure builds up once the float valves cut off fuel flow until more is needed again. When they open again, and the pressure drops, the SU pump starts pumping again. Contrast that with the Pierburg system, that does have a flow-back loop straight to the fuel tank when the float valves cut off the flow to the carbs. This is because the pump is always on if the car is running and you have sufficient oil pressure so that an emergency cut-off is not indicated. I am sick to death of the endless crying that E10 is the great Satan that is at the root of all problems. It's no different than the hue and cry that went up in response to the removal of lead from fuel. I've had no period in my adult life where E10 has not been the most commonly available fuel, almost to the point of being the only available fuel, and I have yet to experience any unusual issues with it in everything from lawn mowers through automobiles of the carburetor and fuel injection eras. SRH33576 doesn't even have the fuel cooler as part of its fuel system, and I've never experienced vapor lock, either. (And E10 makes that less likely, not more so). LPG is not an option in the USA, and if you don't believe me then I'll allow others to comment. The infrastructure for not only the conversion of automobiles but also for actually fueling up just doesn't exist here. That's partially, but not entirely, because gasoline/petrol is, relative to Europe and a number of other regions, quite inexpensive here. It didn't come about where it is an option now due to environmental concerns (and I agree it's cleaner) but economic ones. Brian | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2436 Registered: 09-2004 |
Still has a restrictor that can get stuck with crappy old E10 gas. Your fountain should pulsate with an su! Return to tank for later and USA cars! Use lpg conversion if your car is laid up for years, will startup with no fire risk. Hope this vwill help you on your merry way. | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 2129 Registered: 04-2009 |
Dear Patrick, how can he convert to LPG when they dont have LPG where he lives? Is this sound advice? | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2437 Registered: 09-2004 |
Use bottled propane with pump! Looks like USA is getting up to speed with LPG article,9708.html,https://gazeo.com/up-to-date/news/2017/LPG-car-sales-up-in-the-US,article,9708.html | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 2130 Registered: 04-2009 |
I am sorry Patrick - bottled propane with a pump is not a practical solution for any car owner. We pride ourselves for offering sound advice to users of this forum who can benefit from our collective experience. Perhaps on this occasion the advice to use LPG may have not been the best solution to the problem. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2438 Registered: 09-2004 |
Progress with propane in my early years with running just the bottle with a regulator all ok for a few miles then it would freeze, progressed with a more up to date Italian set up this was before any gas stations were supplying it. I had a hand pump used to transfer the propane then on to an electric pump. Soon all the benefits of propane LPG became common knowledge as apposed to petrol and garages supplying the stuff are now quite common. Unless your car is a garage queen and started every week then no LPG is not for them. We have to face progress in this fast changing world like it or not. As for any RR not used for years the fuel system is can be a nightmare of failings with dangerous consequences, old fuel is still very volatile. Looks like the USA has seen the light with electric! Soon we will see many converted petrol engine classic RR cars go to electric, now this IMO puts the USA well ahead moving with the future for petrol being dead. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 3910 Registered: 04-2003 |
For what it is worth. The use of LPG as automotive fuel in Australia has stagnated in recent years following increases in the tax rate for LPG used in automotive applications. Never get between a Government intent of raising tax revenue and ignoring the consequences - our experience with automotive LPG is a classic example. LPG was widely used to fuel taxis and is no longer being used for this purpose as the advent of hybrid engine technology killed the appeal of LPG as a cheap and less-polluting fuel. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2439 Registered: 09-2004 |
David LPG has also slowed down in the UK. Really should change the RR engine oil as it never get black! The freebies with electric vehicles ie no road tax and duty payable on the electric used from the grid makes me wonder how long before the government start to tax by the mile. Will not effect my set up hopefully. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 3146 Registered: 06-2009 |
Any recommendation for LPG conversion is, quite literally, a non-starter for residents of the USA. I cannot speak for elsewhere, but don't bother if the person being advised resides in the United States. Brian | ||
| Trevor Hodgekinson Frequent User Username: wm20 Post Number: 236 Registered: 11-2006 |
What happened with LPG is OZ. As usual the plan to encourage people to convert to LPG originated in the 70's fuel crisis and was principally designed to reduce our imported the oil dependence and reduce the amount of gas flared off at oil refineries. Thus it was cheap because 1) It was a waste by product that underwent a small amount of extra processing so was essentally free . 2) Pollution levies were being applied to refining so the refineries reduced their pollution levy for the gas that was flared off. Now this LPG conversion subisidy bounced around parliament for nearly 30 years till it was needed to win enough "green" votes to win the next election before the Howard government finally enacted it. In the mean time both of the NSW refineries and one of the Victorian refineries had shut down so there was no longer any where near enough supply of "free" gas . Automotive LPG was now the mined LPG that gets a higher price being exported to Asia. Had the conversion subsidy been enacted back in the 70's when it was first proposed then both Caltex & Shell could have continued to run their refineries for another 10 to 15 years longer. A bit off topic but when the NSW state government announced the unneeded desalination plant at Kurnell it was hailed as being "environmentally clean" because it was to be run using electricity generated at the power station built adjoining it fed by waste refinery gasses . However this was 2 years into Caltex's shut down plan so by the time the desal plant was finished the refinery had already closed. Apparently the media were not shareholders in AOR or they would have been well aware that the refinery was closing. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 3912 Registered: 04-2003 |
Trevor, My #2 son was employed at Caltex Kurnell and was one of approximately 30 employees selected and offered transfers to the Lytton refinery in Brisbane when Kurnell was shut down which he accepted. Following the announcement that the Kwinana refinery in Western Australia would close, only two operating refineries remain; Lytton in Brisbane and Altona in Melbourne. As a consequence, Australia is highly dependent on continuous imports of refined product from South Asia and future imports from India where refinery capacity is increasing. The future problem for Australia will be maintaining security of the sea lanes for the tankers bringing refined product to Australia especially fuel and lubricants for our transport and defence requirements. It is blatantly obvious a couple of well-positioned "stealth" submarines would quickly eliminate this supply line putting our country in a very difficult position. Concerns have already been expressed that very low stocks of imported fuel are being held [some reportedly as low as 2 weeks supply due to a lack of on-shore bulk storage capacity]. On-shore storage [as well as the remaining refineries] is also a prime target for attack/sabotage in the event of undeclared/declared war to cripple our ability to defend our country. Those who forget the mistakes of the past are condemned to repeat them in the future. [modified version of George Santayana's original quote "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"].  | ||
| Graham Phillips Frequent User Username: playtime Post Number: 380 Registered: 03-2019 |
G'day everyone,..... I've always remembered it as: "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it!" Graham. | ||
| Alan Dibley Frequent User Username: alsdibley Post Number: 290 Registered: 10-2009 |
Hi. Or:- "Those who don't learn from history become politicians." Alan D. | ||
| Trevor Hodgekinson Frequent User Username: wm20 Post Number: 237 Registered: 11-2006 |
We are doing a bit of topic drift but yes I understand exactly what you are saying. Subsidies for Iron & steel . copper car making & fuel refining all came in post WWII when the government realised just how vunerable we were to our supply lines Unfortunatly like most government support it was ill directed and not policed so BHP for instance gobbled up millions to prove that continious casting & direct rolling was just a fad & not economically viable. They also concentrated on supplying the local market with low value products rather than gearing up for export of high value high alloy steels we were well suited to make & is now happening at Wyhalla . Hopefully the Covid situation will get a few heads thinking in Canberra . Tiny tax cuts to people who could afford to pay twice the tax rate do little good for the country keeping essential industries and in particular manufacturing industry is a massive benefit to every one in the long run. Even import quotas were a good idea and should have been retained so only high quality goods get imported rather than having a choice of 200 different brands of trash . However most politicans are graduates who still suffer from the elitist dillusion that an advanced economy is based on the service industries . Well the power house of the EU is Germany whose economy is manufacturing based The power houses in the world economy are China & India , both built on the back of manufacturing. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 3147 Registered: 06-2009 |
So that I can complete the information that answers my original question. The material for the O-ring could be any of those that are fuel/petrol resistant, but nitrile (Buna-N) is by far and away the most common and cheapest. The size is AS568-116, but unless you're ordering O-rings directly a lot of auto parts places won't recognize a -116. So, here are several dirt common seal brands, and their numbers, that correspond to an AS568-116 and are for fuel systems: FelPro 414 Mahle 72116 Both of which are listed as fuel injection and/or EGR O-rings and both of which are used in many different GM vehicles and other makes. There are many cross-references for these two items, so something should be readily available when you need it. The O-ring does not fill the groove in the cap vertically (nor did the one that was in there) and extends just the slightest bit beyond the edge of the outer edge of the cap above/below it to make the seal. Brian | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2440 Registered: 09-2004 |
Hope it has fixed itself now and running well. The E10 fuel has a lot to answer for when left unused in the fuel system, make sure your carb float valves are up to scratch other wise the risk of fire from flooding from a over flow can be a disaster. If the car has been laid up for long periods do check the brakes do not bind more so on the rears. Brake hoses block internally when left bent in one position for years not letting the fluid to return when next used. Once started if OK run for some time to heat up the exhaust system before returning to storage to stop internal condensation rusting the exhaust out. Hope this helps you on your way. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 3148 Registered: 06-2009 |
Well, it's running, and running well enough to move under her own power. The regular brakes seem to be OK, too, though they'll need an immediate replacement of fluid. What I'm most mystified by right now is the the fuel pump will not fire up without having that +12V applied to it, but, after the car is running I can disconnect that supply and it keeps running. If it were the oil pressure cut-off switch that should be "out of the picture" during starting, but come back in to the picture during running, and I'd think that if it were sending the signal that there were no pressure I'd have fuel starvation within seconds of removing the +12V to the pump, but I don't. I need to look at all of the bits involved and apply logic to figure out how this confluence of behaviors could come to be. I did let her run for a while yesterday, but I know it still was not long enough to get a hot exhaust system overall. This revival is going to be a "bits and pieces" sort of thing, that's for sure. Brian | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2441 Registered: 09-2004 |
(What I'm most mystified by right now is the the fuel pump will not fire up without having that +12V applied to it, but, after the car is running I can disconnect that supply and it keeps running) Brian it will run for quite some time till the floats run dry, this will start with the engine starting to falter as one carb will start to run dry then the other. If this is not the cause then the effects of E10 will cause another failing with half + tank of fuel. | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 2131 Registered: 04-2009 |
Dear Brian, I understand what you are saying. The car keeps running and indeed way past the duration of what is in the float chambers. I had this happen to me 6 years ago and my memory is rusty about the solution. The supply that you are providing to the pump is enough to energise the relay to make it engage off its own accord. Once the relay is engaged, it remains engaged until you switch the car off. That is then why the car can continue to run. If you try to start the car normally, the relay is not activated and therefore the pumps get no power delivered to them. | ||
| Hubert Kelly Frequent User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 426 Registered: 03-2012 |
Omar, If one were not to concerned, might it be suggested , that doing what Brian has done on a more permanent bases might work long term...ie get a cheap on/off switch turn same to start car , when car started turn switch off .. and as you alluded to earlier the relay will remain energizer till ignition turns off. Anyway just a thought... plus I wonder in time might the circuit/relay come right with natural usage? .. Might their be any risk to same though?. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 3149 Registered: 06-2009 |
Omar & Hubert, It's definitely going to be one of those tracing through the system until the culprit can be found sort of things. I relay is one of the things I suspected could be involved. Right now I am in the very end stages of emptying out a house of a dear friend of mine who passed away in January and for whom I'm the executor of her estate, so my time over the next week or so will be dedicated to finishing off that job. I am so ready for it to be over, but I can't honestly say that I'm looking forward to leaping back on the RR repair horse, either, but my attitude tends to change once I have and I start figuring things out. I'm just a bit rusty at the moment. Brian | ||
| Jeff Young Frequent User Username: jeyjey Post Number: 436 Registered: 10-2010 |
Sorry to hear about the loss of your friend, Brian. | ||
| Hubert Kelly Frequent User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 427 Registered: 03-2012 |
Sorry to hear of your friends passing Brian. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 3150 Registered: 06-2009 |
Thank you, gentlemen. Phyllis was one of a kind. I am just thankful that the time from "the beginning of the end" to the actual end was less than one month. She also had those of us who cared for her most around daily up through the evening before she passed during the night. This has taught me, again, that I need to keep my promise to not be a pack rat to the maximum extent possible. It has been almost beyond belief what two people (her husband had passed in 2013) shoved into every nook and cranny available in their home! And I live with someone who is, for all practical intents and purposes, a virtual hoarder (but no garbage involved) so I know only too well what likely awaits me and his children. Brian |
