Rear levelling SS1 Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Register | Edit Profile

Australian RR Forums » Silver Shadow Series » Rear levelling SS1 « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Guido Peter Broich
New User
Username: guido

Post Number: 2
Registered: 05-2019
Posted on Sunday, 27 September, 2020 - 20:40:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi all, here I am back with a question I cannot get resolved.

I did an overhaul of the rear levelling valves and the RAMs. I cleaned also the restrictor valves and checked the wiring of the solenoid.

Levelling works well, but I have a problem nobody gets to help me with - while driving, when the car goes over a bump or goes up und down:

1- sometimes I hear a strong RRRRRR noise from the back, short

2- when the car bumps UP, i.e. the RAMs are released, I feel like a short but perceivable stop, as if braking power was applied. (not on the downride of the back, only when it goes up again and the possible ram pressure should be released).
Fact is that the RRRR noise comes up only rarely, over big bumps, while the braking sensation is vey frequent and comes up also without that noise.

That is the reason I wonder if it could be a problem inside one of the levelling valves, when the lever goes down ...

I am thinking that the noise could come from the restrictor valves?

The "brake" sensation could be a short circuit in the levelling valves that at a certain position or the lever allows high pressure fluid go directly in the return pipe and builds up some small but perceivable pressure in the brake circuit?

Brake action must be very short, as no heat is ever build up, also after longer rides, in the wheels.

Has somebody had this problem and knows how to tackle it?

Thanks,
Guido
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Robert J. Sprauer
Frequent User
Username: wraithman

Post Number: 646
Registered: 11-2017
Posted on Sunday, 27 September, 2020 - 20:54:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Did the problem exist before the overhaul?
Put the car on a lift, release the connecting link between the valve and swing arm and bleed the rams.
Did you set the gap required in the height solenoid?.
You can disconnect the HS and hook up to a battery to see if it is clicking as well.
This is a preliminary start.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Martin Taylor
Experienced User
Username: martin_taylor

Post Number: 185
Registered: 07-2013
Posted on Sunday, 27 September, 2020 - 21:11:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Your car is in fast levelling mode, this will cause the system to react to every bump as it is, to prove this drive with the drivers door slightly open and it will probably be no different (it should be), this is either caused by power being applied to the solenoid or dirt or girt in the solenoid allowing pressure to the signalling line on the the levelling valves, the brakes being applied is as you suggest the higher pressure in the return lines activating the master cylinder system as it cannot get back to the tank fast enough so applies pressure via the vent line in the MC which is open to the rear callipers when the pedal is released, check also none of the return lines are dented as this restricts the flow back to the reservoir. Fast levelling should only occur in neutral, park or if a door is open.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Alan Dibley
Frequent User
Username: alsdibley

Post Number: 260
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Monday, 28 September, 2020 - 02:57:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

It is worth checking the only rubber hose in the return line from the HCVs, to check that it has not swollen shut, unless it is a new one. Its high up on the left rear underside.

Alan D..
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jim Walters
Frequent User
Username: jim_walters

Post Number: 326
Registered: 01-2014
Posted on Monday, 28 September, 2020 - 04:45:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I have come across this exact issue several times and each time it was dirt in the restrictor valves. A later Shadow without a master cylinder can also have the same problem, the last time I dealt with it was on a 77 Shadow well after the master was deleted. I'm not saying Martin is wrong, just my experience with this issue is different.

SRH8505 SRC18015 SRE22493 NAC-05370
www.bristolmotors.com
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Robert J. Sprauer
Frequent User
Username: wraithman

Post Number: 647
Registered: 11-2017
Posted on Monday, 28 September, 2020 - 05:36:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Agree with Jim, There is little tolerance in the restrictors for debris. I prefer to completely remove them for cleaning and rebuilding (not much to rebuild), and when assembled make sure you can rattle the valve when assembled.
This way you know the internals are not hung up in the bore. It doesn't take much.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 2093
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 30 September, 2020 - 03:38:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

When I had the the same problem my issue turned out to be the hydraulic hoses. They looked great form the outside but from the inside they were choked. The hoses acted like check valves allowing oil to flow but then choking the flow. I changed them and the difference was fantastic. The braking that would come on by itself stopped immediately after the change.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Guido Peter Broich
New User
Username: guido

Post Number: 4
Registered: 05-2019
Posted on Friday, 02 October, 2020 - 17:39:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thank you all very much!
I will get the car on a hoist soon and check.
In effect solenoid clicks but no difference with open or closed door...
Will report here.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 3096
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Saturday, 03 October, 2020 - 06:29:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

By the way, even though this appears to have been addressed, I wrote up the following some years ago to cover some of the things that can occur, and the reasons for them, as far as peculiar behavior with the brakes. I may, for all I know, have even posted it on these forums, but I kept the URL for the topic on rollsroyceforums.com.

See the topic, Silver Shadow Brake Issues: Your Help Would Be Appreciated!

I also made a post of my then "greatest hits" collection regarding brakes/hydraulics:

SY Brakes & Hydraulics - Diagnostics and Maintenance

Brian
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Larry Kavanagh
Frequent User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 669
Registered: 05-2016
Posted on Saturday, 03 October, 2020 - 09:56:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

You could try disconnecting the positive or earth wires at the height control solenoid valve(insulate the ends) and take a drive. Height control should still work in slow mode. If this solves the problems it would indicate that the solenoid valve is where the trouble lies. Otherwise look for a blocked restrictor valve (most likely the low pressure return restrictor valve) or hydraulic hose.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Guido Peter Broich
New User
Username: guido

Post Number: 5
Registered: 05-2019
Posted on Sunday, 01 November, 2020 - 01:53:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Height solenoid has wires hot on P or N, not on others. It clicks.
So I took down the restrictor valvesand and the right hand one was fine and clean. The center one (left) turned out to be full of dirt.
(see pictures).
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Guido Peter Broich
New User
Username: guido

Post Number: 6
Registered: 05-2019
Posted on Sunday, 01 November, 2020 - 02:07:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Guido Peter Broich
New User
Username: guido

Post Number: 7
Registered: 05-2019
Posted on Sunday, 01 November, 2020 - 02:11:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Have to shrink the pictures at home, will post more later.

But now I looked at the solenoid. I got the overhaul kit from introcar.

1.coil is not short, works

2. Movement very short

3. I changed the copper plunger

4. How can I register it? Actually pressure from main input goes always through to the exit to the solenoid. When I give current, it goes also to the return exit.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Larry Kavanagh
Frequent User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 686
Registered: 05-2016
Posted on Sunday, 01 November, 2020 - 13:04:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Solenoid is probably OK. Clean the restrictor valves well with brake cleaner or methylated spirit.

If you reassemble the restrictor valves without using the seal and shake them near your ear you should hear the small centre piece moving.

If they're moving freely insert new seals and they should be good to go.

If the flexi hoses have not been replaced within the past 8 years it's time to do it now. That crud in your restrictor valve is probably coming from a hose that is disintegrating or a seal that is perishing.

Take the lid off the reservoir and see if there's any crud lying on the bottom, crud indicates perishing flexi hoses or seals.

.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Robert J. Sprauer
Frequent User
Username: wraithman

Post Number: 653
Registered: 11-2017
Posted on Sunday, 01 November, 2020 - 21:46:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The small slug must be able to move freely in the centre hole of the discs in the restrictor valves

The height solenoid has a critical gap within, that has to be adjusted and set. It will transmit a click when power is applied.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Guido Peter Broich
New User
Username: guido

Post Number: 8
Registered: 05-2019
Posted on Sunday, 01 November, 2020 - 22:03:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Yesterday I colud not post all the pictures, as they where too big. Thanks to all and a few updates:

I did a complete tubing change about 7-8 years ago, in fact the rubber hoses where blocked on the brakes. I changed them ALL, also the high pressure tubing from the accumulators to the brake cylinder.

At that time I cleaned one restrictor (right) but left the left one alone (I did not see it probably) so the dirt can be from before or now.

At that time I checked the solenoid valve which was clean. Not the solenoid was clean, al rubbers look ok, no leaking.

One first question: the rubber seals from the Introcar kit are much less thick than the originals, so I am tempted to leave them alone not to get a leak now.

Solenoid magnet works, but the inside plunger "hops" only for a very small amount. (I did a video but don't know how to attach it). Furthermore the pressure applied to the high pressure inlet (air) comes out of the outlet at al times, both if current applied or not. Return outlet is open only when current applied, so the plunger reaches the outlet opening and closes.

On Fig. G29: Always form C-->B, only when current from B-->A and C-->A. Is this correct????

Robert: how much should I screw the return outlet in, to register correct? I hear a clicking if I just screw it in a little bit, than it stops (too compressed).

I did NOT find ANY shims in the plunger assembly, both not between the thick plunger parts, nor on the copper one (see fig. G29, shims X and Z).

I feel I have two different problems: the RRRR sound coming from the restrictors and the braking from the always open (fast levelling) solenoid. If C- to -->B is always open, pressure goes to B at all times and I am in fast levelling with or without current to the solenoid.

Guido, the best way to post the video is to put it into a Google Drive folder and create a link to the video file for forum members to access and view the file. If you need help to do this, please send me an email:

drh144334@yahoo.com.au

.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Guido Peter Broich
New User
Username: guido

Post Number: 10
Registered: 05-2019
Posted on Sunday, 01 November, 2020 - 22:28:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

by the way: Maunal shows high pressure restrictor valve OUTSIDE the levelling valve with three pipes. In my car it has three pipes but is sitting right under the right hand valve.

The low pressure restrictor valve is on the center of the car (see picture) and has also tree pipes, NOT four as stated in the manual ....

Position of the hogh pressure restrictor, removed:

high pressure restrictor position

Low pressure restrictor on site:

low pressure restrictor on site

(this was the dirty one - there are only three pipes, the 4th thing you see is an earthing lead).

Another difference from the drawing is (I have a late LHD LWB car) is that the RAM drains are not at the sides of the car, but come together in a single terminal block at the center of the car.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Larry Kavanagh
Frequent User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 687
Registered: 05-2016
Posted on Monday, 02 November, 2020 - 08:27:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Guido,

The ram bleed screws on my Silver Shadow 11 are on a terminal block also but the right hand bleed screw bleeds the left ram and vice versa.

The high pressure restrictor valve is the one nearest to the solenoid valve to the best of my recollection.

The old seals in your solenoid valve may have swelled and it's not a good idea to reuse seals when reassembling a component.

The solenoid valve should work in slow mode all the time when driving and only goes into fast mode when gear selector is in "P" or "N". On early Shadows fast mode was also wired to the driver's door switch but that may have been deleted prior to your model.

It sounds to me that your solenoid is working correctly, best way to be sure is put everything back together and go for a drive, if you still have a problem then you can disconnect and insulate the solenoid wires and see if the braking problem goes away when the self levelling is limited to slow mode.

I reckon that cleaning the restrictor valves has probably solved your problem but the hydraulic hoses are near the end of their life and you should be thinking about changing them especially if there's rubber powder particles in the bottom of your reservoir.

Don't let the outer appearance of the hoses fool you as they decay from the inside first. After bleeding the rams I always switch off the engine and then bleed the No.2 pressure switch while there is weight still in the trunk as that releases any residual trapped air in the height control system.

.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Guido Peter Broich
New User
Username: guido

Post Number: 12
Registered: 05-2019
Posted on Monday, 02 November, 2020 - 19:42:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Larry, thank you very much!
In fact the door switch must have been removed, I did test the wires and they are hot in P and N, but not in R, D,1,2 regardless of door open or not.

Also I have the central ram purge block with right line going to the left nipple and left line to the right!

I will reassemble and test it as you suggested, but I still need to know how much I should screw in the central return line connector... can you give me some suggestions?

I wondered only how it can be that it never closes completely, but maybe it does under high pressure on the inlet.

I will change the rubber hoses on the brakes, in effect they have some years now.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Robert J. Sprauer
Frequent User
Username: wraithman

Post Number: 654
Registered: 11-2017
Posted on Monday, 02 November, 2020 - 21:52:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The workshop manual clearly shows how to carefully dis-assemble, replace parts and SET the gap with a feeler gauge.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Larry Kavanagh
Frequent User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 688
Registered: 05-2016
Posted on Tuesday, 03 November, 2020 - 01:20:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

When you run the engine for a few minutes to build up full hydraulic pressure and then turn off the engine and turn the ignition back on you should hear a faint click from the solenoid valve when you detach a wire, this indicates that the electrics are OK in the valve and that the valve is working.

However, if you also hear a light hissing noise when you disconnect the wire it indicates a problem with the valve seat. So a click but no hiss when a wire is detached should mean that the solenoid valve is good.

Section G 11 in the manual TSD 4200 in the technical section near the bottom of the topics menu gives details of the gap settings. I haven't serviced a solenoid valve myself yet, when mine became defective a few years ago there was no clicking noise when I disconnected a wire so I took the lazy option and replaced it with a reconditioned one from Flying Spares.

When doing the wire disconnection test don't leave the ignition turned on for long as the electronic ignition module could fry.

.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Robert J. Sprauer
Frequent User
Username: wraithman

Post Number: 655
Registered: 11-2017
Posted on Tuesday, 03 November, 2020 - 03:28:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

You can also test the solenoid by unplugging the 2 wires and testing with a stand alone 12 battery.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Guido Peter Broich
New User
Username: guido

Post Number: 13
Registered: 05-2019
Posted on Tuesday, 03 November, 2020 - 09:52:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I said before that the wires are ok. So that's done.

Questions are two:

1. Is it ok that the solenoid valves lets pass fluid from high pressure input to levelling valve output both with magnet on and off, because very short plunger travel?

2. How can I figure out how much I should turn the inlet screw in? I hear a clicking noise up to a certain piint, than going further it stops.

.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Larry Kavanagh
Frequent User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 690
Registered: 05-2016
Posted on Tuesday, 03 November, 2020 - 12:17:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Have you read Section G11 in the manual. It gives details of all the settings.

Assuming that the gaps are correctly set and the valve seat and spring have been inserted screw in the adjusting sleeve until the valve seat touches the nylon seat of the bobbin (I presume that's the point when the ticking stops).

Then you will need a dial gauge or depth gauge to measure the distance you screw the adjusting sleeve back out, the distance to back off the adjusting sleeve should be between 0.508mm and 0.635mm.

Then fit and tighten the large lock nut while you hold the adjusting sleeve from moving.

The system for testing the solenoid valve fluid output is also in Section G 11 TSD 4200 which is available to download on this site. I haven't actually serviced a solenoid valve but if I was to do it I would follow the step by step guide in G 11. I had to read it a few times before the procedure became clear.

.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Guido Peter Broich
New User
Username: guido

Post Number: 14
Registered: 05-2019
Posted on Tuesday, 03 November, 2020 - 19:02:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks Larry!
G11 in the workshop manual is about the master brake cylinder ...
At page G46 there is the procedure, but it does not say how far to screw it in, but the dimensions of the shims to put in X and Z ...as I told before, I did not find any shims in the valve opening it and Introcar does not have shims in the kit.
So now I will try to screw to contact and back up 0,503-0,653 mm, to see if it works. I feel that the shims are necessary to assure good closure of the side holes and inlet pressure, which would not be affected by this procedure as you follow what shown in fig. G29.

I will give it a try.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Larry Kavanagh
Frequent User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 691
Registered: 05-2016
Posted on Wednesday, 04 November, 2020 - 01:07:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Guido, I think we are looking at different manuals, you are reading TSD 2476 while I'm reading TSD 4200 Section G 11. TSD 2476 doesn't explain how to test the solenoid valve but TSD 4200 gives a good description of the procedure. Your car seems to be a very late Silver Shadow that has some of the parts from a later Silver Shadow 11 installed, the position of your restrictor valves and ram bleed screws are more in keeping with Silver Shadow 11 design.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Robert J. Sprauer
Frequent User
Username: wraithman

Post Number: 656
Registered: 11-2017
Posted on Wednesday, 04 November, 2020 - 02:45:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Early Shadows had the ht solenoid high up on the rear subframe and almost impossible to reach the top union. Later cars were lowered.
As Larry mentioned, the ht solenoid info/pics is a bit different in both workshop manuals.
I have rebuilt many and prefer use the SII manual.
I have a 1976 Shadow and a 1980 Silver Wraith II.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Guido Peter Broich
New User
Username: guido

Post Number: 15
Registered: 05-2019
Posted on Wednesday, 04 November, 2020 - 06:18:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hmmm, will search for TSD 4200, is it in the tecnical section?
Yes, it's one of the last shadow 1s
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Guido Peter Broich
New User
Username: guido

Post Number: 16
Registered: 05-2019
Posted on Wednesday, 04 November, 2020 - 06:24:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

GREAT... I never looked at the shadow ii manual, it explains much better, now I see what you where talking about.

I have to disassemble also the last part inside the magnet to test the gaps.

Will do it and make pictures.

Thanks!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Larry Kavanagh
Frequent User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 692
Registered: 05-2016
Posted on Wednesday, 04 November, 2020 - 08:19:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Pictures would be great Guido, it might help others at a later date. It would be a valuable addition to Tee-One Topics.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Guido Peter Broich
New User
Username: guido

Post Number: 17
Registered: 05-2019
Posted on Thursday, 05 November, 2020 - 01:05:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

GREAT... I never looked at the shadow ii manual, it explains much better, now I see what you where talking about.
I have to disassemble also the last part inside the magnet to tedt the gaps.
Will do it and make pictures.
Thanks!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Guido Peter Broich
New User
Username: guido

Post Number: 18
Registered: 05-2019
Posted on Thursday, 05 November, 2020 - 01:24:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I just cannot understand how to measure the shim Z, it is inside the housing at 4. Should I try to disassemble at point 1? There are no points to grasp the thing.
Same for distance Y, as it is inside the upper plunger at point 2.
Distance at 3 can be measured by measuring the distance screwing in the valve seat.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 2235
Registered: 05-2012
Posted on Thursday, 05 November, 2020 - 03:13:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Guido

Have you watched Ronnie Shaver's youtube video on the height control solenoid. It starts at 5 1/2 mins in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtkT68vxRts
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Guido Peter Broich
New User
Username: guido

Post Number: 19
Registered: 05-2019
Posted on Thursday, 05 November, 2020 - 10:41:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff, thanks it's a nice video, I got the locknut adjustment, that's ok.

My problem is that the small shim you could see in the video (from fig G29 there should be one between the two valves or in top of the copper plunger, Ronny puts it under the spring) is absent.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tim North
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 31.53.68.145
Posted on Thursday, 05 November, 2020 - 09:21:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I don't have the references available at the moment but if you can get hold of the late Chris Browne's articles, published in the RREC bulletin, about overhauling the hydraulic systems of his Shadow II I think you will find them very useful.

(Message approved by david_gore)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Larry Kavanagh
Frequent User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 693
Registered: 05-2016
Posted on Thursday, 05 November, 2020 - 17:03:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Guido, The shims are part number UD 15129. Introcar Ltd have them available to order on their site at approx 3.50 each or about 4. According to their exploded diagram there would appear to be 2 shims. I'm guessing that the shim thickness should be 0.50mm to 0.63mm since that is the required gap at "Z" but it's not very clear in the instruction manual. I note that Ronnie in the video said that he simply puts things back the way they were and doesn't make any adjustments and does the final measurement using a feeler gauge.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Alan Dibley
Frequent User
Username: alsdibley

Post Number: 272
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Thursday, 05 November, 2020 - 18:31:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Note that, when you get to set-up stage of this saga, "Ronnie" ignores the manual and thus misses the point of the chassis height adjustment This leaves the car with half-shafts NOT in line. Follow the manual.

HTH - Alan D.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Larry Kavanagh
Frequent User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 694
Registered: 05-2016
Posted on Friday, 06 November, 2020 - 01:52:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Alan, That's true, Ronnie sets up the height control levers on the height control valves to a point where they are ready to activate when weight is added to the trunk on the assumption that the car is already sitting correctly on good coil springs with the drive shafts settled horizontally. Many cars with saggy bum syndrome due to weak coil springs have their height control levers adjusted to compensate and in my opinion this helps to achieve the correct ride height and to keep the drive shafts horizontal but it renders the rear suspension spongy and adversely affects handling. If originality is to be adhered to when saggy bum syndrome takes hold then quality replacement coil springs or additional shims and correctly set height control valve levers is the safest solution, otherwise the Harvey Bailey upgraded springs, shocks and stiffer anti-roll bar and deletion of the height control altogether is probably an even better choice.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mark Aldridge
Frequent User
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 709
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Friday, 06 November, 2020 - 05:55:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Larry, I am puzzled as to why riding on the rams affects handling. My Shadow 1 rides about .25inch on its rams, but with Bilstein shocks all round and a TurboR front rollbar, the handling is on a par with my MulsanneS which is on original Shocks. i wonder, could the height control system require bleeding, or are the Shocks getting tired.
Mark
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Larry Kavanagh
Frequent User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 696
Registered: 05-2016
Posted on Friday, 06 November, 2020 - 08:56:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Mark, I'm not sure why raising the height control to compensate for weak springs affects the handling, I did it once and noticed that the rear end tended to float affecting the overall stability. Maybe if the rear is raised by adjusting the height control levers it takes some of the pressure off the springs so the car would be riding higher on weak springs rendering the springs less effective especially when there's no extra weight being carried in the back. If the shocks were also weak it would add to the problem. I'm no expert nor engineer and my theory could be off the rails.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Graham Phillips
Frequent User
Username: playtime

Post Number: 325
Registered: 03-2019
Posted on Friday, 06 November, 2020 - 16:30:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

G'day everyone,...

Larry, you may find that in your experience the rear 'floats' because the springs were weak, they are losing their ability to resist compression as new springs would have that capability. The ride height rams would have nothing to do with the ride itself.

Graham.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Larry Kavanagh
Frequent User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 698
Registered: 05-2016
Posted on Saturday, 07 November, 2020 - 06:16:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Graham, I reckon you are correct about my springs needing replacement, that's next on the to do list. However, as a temporary exercise I raised the height control levers slightly, that corrected the ride height but the rear felt even more spongy. I found that the rear seemed to float more with the rams slightly raised, I think that the handling with weak springs on a raised suspension is worse than the handling on weak springs with the height control set back to normal, I reckon it has something to do with the difference in raised or lowered centre of gravity but that's just a guess.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 2396
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Sunday, 08 November, 2020 - 06:31:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Larry you mean king pin inclination.

BTW set my car up with the correct height with spring helpers and HCL running on the rams, no floating and good for towing!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Larry Kavanagh
Frequent User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 700
Registered: 05-2016
Posted on Sunday, 08 November, 2020 - 07:18:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Maybe that's it Patrick, I'm not very familiar with suspension geometry. Today I've been reading articles and the best term I can identify with is "rear end sway". I've now discovered that rear end sway is normally a side effect of worn shocks. Like you I fitted spring assists and found that they improved the ride height a little and I temporarily raised the height control after which the rear end sway became noticeable. It was a bit like driving a fish with a swishing tail. Perhaps my problem is worn shocks combined with weak springs or maybe it's shocks alone. While I'm at it I think I'll just replace the lot. That should keep me busy for a while, it might even see me through the pandemic at the rate at which I work.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 2397
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Sunday, 08 November, 2020 - 18:43:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Larry, first quick check I would carry out is to measure the distance between the wheel centers one side of the car at a time, should be equal with the front wheels in the straight ahead position.
This will cancel out any incorrect alignment of the sub frames etc and worn compliance mounts.
BTW my shocks are still the original!
May be the w/s manual has a better check, Dare I say! David.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Larry Kavanagh
Frequent User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 702
Registered: 05-2016
Posted on Monday, 09 November, 2020 - 01:55:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks Patrick,I'll do the measurement check you recommend. If there's a discrepancy I'll delve further regarding compliance mounts condition and sub frame alignment. The compliance mounts look perfect on cursory visual inspection. There's no evidence of any uneven wear on the tyres but there's only approx. 5000 miles on the current set. I reckon my shocks are still the originals too but I can't be certain, the car has genuinely done only 70,000 miles.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mark Aldridge
Frequent User
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 710
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Monday, 09 November, 2020 - 02:44:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Larry, assuming your Shadow is a 1 , have you checked the oil in the steering damper and adjustment of the steering box. They make a dramatic effect on the car stability.
Mark
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 3840
Registered: 04-2003
Posted on Monday, 09 November, 2020 - 06:29:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Patrick,

You, I and a small group of long-time participants in the various R-R/B forums around the world are the only ones who will understand your cryptic message .

For those not in the know, it refers to past events on various forums involving personal attacks on myself, Patrick and others for disputing the veracity of posts by an individual who no longer participates in these forums.

Onwards ever onwards wins at the end of the day.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Larry Kavanagh
Frequent User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 703
Registered: 05-2016
Posted on Monday, 09 November, 2020 - 08:40:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Mark, Mine is a Shadow 11 (SRH37125) 1979 with steering rack.Steering wheel feels good, no play but the rear end appears to sway a little. While cruising on main roads it isn't noticeable but on undulating, winding back roads I sometimes sense that the rear end has a mind of it's own. If I'm travelling at a reasonably sensible speed and meet an oncoming car on a narrow winding road I tend to slow down a bit more than usual to be sure of measuring the gap. I was overtaking a truck on a motorway recently and when moving from the outside lane back to the inside lane the car appeared as though it was floating like a boat. I hadn't been smoking any illicit substances or drinking at the time but the feeling was akin to the side effects of such a practice (or so I'm led to believe). I know my description isn't very enlightening from an engineering perspective but I think that "rear end sway" as a result of worn shocks is the most likely fault but I'll check all the above mentioned possibilities too.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mark Aldridge
Frequent User
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 711
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Monday, 09 November, 2020 - 20:12:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Larry, the Shadow 2 handling with the Rack steering is similar to a Spirit, my money is on tired shocks. Is the back end soft when you" bounce" the car .The downside of replacing the rears is that the fronts will appear weak. Been there , done it etc etc.and had the bill .
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Larry Kavanagh
Frequent User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 704
Registered: 05-2016
Posted on Monday, 09 November, 2020 - 22:26:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I reckon that the back end feels soft Mark, it has always felt soft to me but it settles quickly after I bounce it. I had assumed that the softness was a design feature to give a soft ride but it does appear very soft. I think I'll remove the shocks and bench test them or get a second opinion from a friendly local mechanic. If they're shot I might as well replace the springs too while I'm at it.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 3841
Registered: 04-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 10 November, 2020 - 06:10:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I would be checking the condition of the rear subframe mounts as well.

The "sway" may be a consequence of failing mounts.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Larry Kavanagh
Frequent User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 706
Registered: 05-2016
Posted on Tuesday, 10 November, 2020 - 08:58:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks David, I'll check the mounts too. I hope to get started on the job within a few days, luckily I have access to a pit. If I run into difficulty I'll start a new topic as I feel that I'm inadvertently hijacking Guido's thread on the height control solenoid.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Guido Peter Broich
New User
Username: guido

Post Number: 20
Registered: 05-2019
Posted on Saturday, 14 November, 2020 - 08:12:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I started changing the tubing today as i got the set plus two solenoid shims from introcar.
0.1mm each.
But now I still have the problem that giving current to the magnet, the valve goes down less than 0.5mm.

So when mounting the inlet with wire hot as in tsd4200, it screws in only a few turns and touches the valve and closes. Backing of is not podsible, too small room.

How much should the valve go in when magnet starts?
Magnet is NOT SHORT, but get warm after a few minutes working.
Can it be that it looses its power, also if not shorted?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Larry Kavanagh
Frequent User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 708
Registered: 05-2016
Posted on Saturday, 14 November, 2020 - 11:37:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Guido, take another look at Ronny's Garage you tube video video "Silver Shadow height control part 7 of 7. It will give you a visual idea of how far in the inlet should go before the feeler gauge adjustment is done. Also take a look at the parts diagram on Introcar site to see the sequence for inserting all the valve components into the valve body. It appears that something is stopping your valve from fully activating when you give it electrical power, it might have something to do with the way the components have been inserted.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Larry Kavanagh
Frequent User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 709
Registered: 05-2016
Posted on Wednesday, 18 November, 2020 - 01:37:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Guido, Is it possible that you have inserted the valve cone or bobbin the wrong way around in the solenoid body? If that's the case it might explain why the inlet end piece is not screwing in far enough.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Guido Peter Broich
New User
Username: guido

Post Number: 21
Registered: 05-2019
Posted on Thursday, 19 November, 2020 - 20:18:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Larry,

ho the valve is in ok and goes all the way down when pressed by finger. I checked both the steps for having the cone valve going into it's body and going into the bobbins seating hole (where the shims are).

I saw the video from Ronny's garage, he actually does not measure anything and just puts the shim (one only) in as it came out. The weired thing in the video is that he puts the shim in BEFORE the cone valve. Probably he did it again right, as cone valve has to go with the spring in the valve body, and the shim goes between cone valve and bobbin.

TSD4200 says to ACTIVATE the coil, so the spring is compressed and the bobbin is sucked inside the solenoid body. So space should be given to screw in the inlet screw.

I see that in my case giving power to the electrical coil the bobbin just makes a smal hop and does actually go in for less than a millimeter (pushing it by hand it goes in all the way down).

So now I took the expensive step and ordered a new coil from Introcar, in case it is working bad. In fact it becomes quite warm after only a few minutes working.

Magnetic characteristics of the bobbin can be the other reason, but I think they put in an iron piece and not a magnet that can loose its strenght! (hopefully, otherwise I have to get also a new bobbin ... )

It's becoming a costly affair, it I had to start it all over I would have got a new solenoid from Introcar right away!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Larry Kavanagh
Frequent User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 711
Registered: 05-2016
Posted on Friday, 20 November, 2020 - 04:25:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I feel your pain Guido, when I was in the same predicament a few years ago I ordered a reconditioned solenoid as I needed a quick fix. I had a niece's wedding coming up within a few days and I needed to get it sorted urgently. The replacement solenoid has worked perfectly since.

Add Your Message Here
Post:
Bold text Italics Underline Create a hyperlink Insert a clipart image

Username: Posting Information:
This is a public posting area. Enter your username and password if you have an account. Otherwise, enter your full name as your username and leave the password blank. Your e-mail address is optional.
Please quote Chassis Numbers for all vehicles mentioned.
Password:
E-mail:
Options: Enable HTML code in message
Automatically activate URLs in message
Action: