Author |
Message |
richard george yeaman
Prolific User Username: richyrich
Post Number: 1147 Registered: 04-2012
| Posted on Tuesday, 24 March, 2020 - 10:06: | |
Hi all I have started to strip my SS1 to bare metal - SRH19529 started its existence with a Everflex roof covering and the lower body finished in garnet, later on it was repainted in ivory white and used in the wedding car industry. I will take some photos and post them as I progress, any advice would be appreciated, type of paint etc. Richard. |
Geoff Wootton
Grand Master Username: dounraey
Post Number: 2198 Registered: 05-2012
| Posted on Tuesday, 24 March, 2020 - 13:30: | |
Sounds like a great project Richard. Lots of photos will be really appreciated, as you progress. Are you chemically stripping the car? I used to keep a tin of Aircraft Remover in my garage for the odd times I needed to strip paint, however I've recently found a much better product. The problem with Aircraft Remover is the fumes off it are not great to breathe in, even with a respirator - it contains methylene chloride. The new stripper I use is called Citristrip and is much less toxic. A lot of people think it doesn't work because they are used to the fast action of strippers like Aircraft Remover. The trick with Citristrip is to apply it and then leave it for 24 hours - the paint then lifts off in sheets. |
Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Prolific User Username: soviet
Post Number: 1696 Registered: 02-2013
| Posted on Tuesday, 24 March, 2020 - 17:05: | |
Richard you have now entered the arena of madness. Insanity is your forte until you can sit back with a double scotch and admire a diamond perfect finish that Crewe would have put there originally. Paint stripper and fools don't mix. One of my earliest legal matters concerned paint stripper and a Ferrari. An apprentice put the paint stripper on the roof of the car and thinking that all would be fine as the masking tape and paper was attached to the below window areas left the paint stripper on overnight to do its job which it did. Yes it lifted the masking tape and etched all the glass in the car. Can you imagine the screams and howls the next morning aside from the cost apart from the legal fees of shark finned lawyers giggling about the debacle on the way to court? Paint: I like acrylic lacquer but it far softer and safer than two pack paint. Two pack is a mongrel to get flat and it has a propensity to orange peel just like a citrus farm. Twenty years ago I worked with a hot rod maniac Italian who went to the Ferrari factory in Italy looked and later told me the paint finish on new Ferraris was horribly orange peeled. Definitely not Crewe caper. Also, two pack it deadly and if you read the label it's says ISOCYANATE that means cyanide. So unless you need 10 drunken Irish sailors perish next door two pack is not an option without a spray booth with dedicated oxygen supply with a full spray suit. Once just once in Sydney I saw flat two pack on a car and the only reason I saw that was because the owner was a professional spray painter and a bloody good one (rarer than an Irish four leaf clover in Siberia) who painted his own car. Put simply unless you like an orange peel finish two pack is a no-go. When your car was new the finish on the paint work would have been perfect but only because Crewe had a pack of goose stepping quality control people who would have made the German SS waking up in cold sweats at strange and odd hours of the morning. Good luck with getting the paint right and if you succeed perhaps dropping a few thousand in a lottery binge would be wise.
(Message approved by david_gore) |
gordon le feuvre
Frequent User Username: triumph
Post Number: 337 Registered: 07-2012
| Posted on Tuesday, 24 March, 2020 - 18:35: | |
Richard, I would stay away from paint stripper. IN 70'S USED THIS ON CORNICHE UNDER WARRANTY (TO SPEED JOB AS FACTORY SET PAYMENT) FOUND FILLER HAD BEEN USED TO SHAPE TOP WINGS TO GET FINAL PROFILE. NOT SURE IF 4 DOOR CARS (BODY MADE AT PRESSED STEEL) EVER DID THAT. IT BECAME A NIGHTMARE TO SAY LEAST AS THE PAINT STRIPPER PERCULATED INTO FILLER AND WE HAD TO GET IT ALL OUT AND BACK TO PROPER BARE METAL. THIS WAS REALLY HARD AS STIPPER TURNED FILLER INTO GUE.THEN START AGAIN TO RESHAPE (BLEW THE HOURS OUT OF WATER)EASIER TO JUST FLAT WITH DA MACHINE |
David Gore
Moderator Username: david_gore
Post Number: 3647 Registered: 04-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, 24 March, 2020 - 19:30: | |
Thanks Gordon, You just provided the answer to something I could not explain with DRH14434. There was loads of filler on the front wings when the LHS wing had to be repaired after a wayward driver changed lanes without looking first - I could not work out why it was there and now I know..... I thought it was previous accident damage.
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richard george yeaman
Prolific User Username: richyrich
Post Number: 1148 Registered: 04-2012
| Posted on Tuesday, 24 March, 2020 - 19:39: | |
Geoff, Vladimir, and Gordon, I have not used any paint stripper, Bad memories from the past, I used a hot air blower and a scraper to remove the layers down to the last three layers a yellowish etch a grey primer and a milk chocolate brown which I am using a D A machine, The factory used quite a lot of filler to sweeten the lines, I found a hole on the off side rear wing that I thought some previous owner had done it was filled with a big dollop of filler When I checked the build sheet there it was an arrow pointing and the word hole clearly at the exact spot,Vladimir I was thinking of going with the acrylic lacquer route. Richard. |
Robert J. Sprauer
Frequent User Username: wraithman
Post Number: 598 Registered: 11-2017
| Posted on Tuesday, 24 March, 2020 - 22:22: | |
Any top color must be buffed out to flatten, including 2 part systems with a clear coat. Pressure and mix ratios are adjusted on test panels to achieve results. Unlike lacquer, urethane is extremely durable and dries to a shine. Lacquer must be polished when dry. I use Dynabrade sanders up to 5000 grit and then buff and polish with my process. |
Trevor Hodgekinson
Experienced User Username: wm20
Post Number: 168 Registered: 11-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, 24 March, 2020 - 23:09: | |
Do yourself a favour and start with POR 15 on the bre metal. No matter what happens afte it has hardened, it will never come off and water will ever get in. Water never gets in then steel will never rust & I MEAN NEVER . The only way to remove it is to bake under a UV light for a very long time. It is used as chassis coat by a lot of professional restorers. Thinner than water will always leave a smooth flat coat and being so thin gets down between things like 2 panels spot welded together. After that any top coat your sweetheart desires. I play mainly with motorcycles and all my frames are done this way. They end up with lots of stone chips but none go through the POR 15 And for painted vintage wheels, nothing is better. Just be warned that it must be cleaned up right away before it dries which is very important if you decide to spray it. Also once opened it will go off in the can no matter you do so just buy what you need and if you are going to be spraying on weekends, then a couple of small cans are a better bet than one big one. I brush it on with disposible brushes. |
Robert J. Sprauer
Frequent User Username: wraithman
Post Number: 599 Registered: 11-2017
| Posted on Wednesday, 25 March, 2020 - 00:05: | |
POR15 is not designed as part of an auto refinish system. It is not even designed for bare metal, it will peel off if not used with a primer. POR 15 is for rusty corroded surfaces, it uses the rust as a binder. Proper protocol with bare metal, and universally done in every shop, is an epoxy primer. POR 15 is for chassis at best. I use coatings that are far better than POR15. |
Benoit Leus
Frequent User Username: benoitleus
Post Number: 407 Registered: 06-2009
| Posted on Wednesday, 25 March, 2020 - 06:51: | |
Richard, I'm in the midst of restoring my MG Midget. Tomorrow I'll apply the last coats of primer, so hopefully it will have it's colour and lacquer coats in a couple of weeks. I have sprayed a few cars over the years, so have a little bit of experience. For the MG I have been using Novol paint products for the first time and am very, very pleased with them.The quality and ease of use is top level. They have a range especially developed for classic cars. All their products are safe to use at home, as long as you use a good quality mask. http://nfcc.pl/en/ I took the car back to bare metal and then gave it a coat of epoxy primer. After doing some welding and filling, I gave it a few coats of spray filler. Sanded it down, rectified some problems and another two coats of spray filler, which I sanded down again. Then I gave it a coat of epoxy sealer and tomorrow it will get a few coats of primer. The Shadow will probably need loads more paint than the Midget, though. Benoit
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Larry Kavanagh
Frequent User Username: shadow_11
Post Number: 599 Registered: 05-2016
| Posted on Wednesday, 25 March, 2020 - 07:40: | |
I had my Silver Shadow 11 professionally bare-metal resprayed a couple of years ago. The original colour was nutmeg and the new colour was the same. Front and rear windscreens were removed and later replaced using new seals. All lights, trim, door handles & locks etc. were removed. All nuts & bolts etc., were bagged separately with their identity marked on masking tape. Initially the paint shop decided to use orbital sanders to get down to bare metal but their sanders were clogging too much so they decided to use acid instead. The new coats were etching primer, then primer, then top coat and finally lacquer. All paints were water based. The final finish is beautiful. The reason I decided to have the car resprayed was because there were a couple of rust bubbles on 3 of the wheel arches so I bought new wheel arch sections from Flying Spares and rather than having the paint blown in to match the original I opted to go the whole hog and have the complete car repainted. The job took a lot longer than anticipated and the paint shop were glad to see the back of me when finished, I reckon they seriously underestimated the time the job would take as they were more accustomed to crash repairs on modern cars. |
Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Prolific User Username: soviet
Post Number: 1697 Registered: 02-2013
| Posted on Wednesday, 25 March, 2020 - 04:01: | |
Richard could you please tell us what coatings are used. On the net I spotted a video showing that POR was a lousy product but I felt the guy that applied it did not use the correct primer. If you and Trevor could have a look at that video and then post your comments it would I think be appreciated buy all. Especially myself as I have four restoration projects on the go at the moment and the art of purchasing the correct product I find most frustrating. Richard what is your technique for flattening two pack orange peel? Do you deck it back with sand paper shortly after it drys but before it reaches maximum hardness? I am considering two pack for the Jaguar 420G silver but I want the finished job to be perfect.
(Message approved by david_gore) |
Patrick Francis
Frequent User Username: jackpot
Post Number: 321 Registered: 11-2016
| Posted on Wednesday, 25 March, 2020 - 08:14: | |
Hi Richard I wish you good luck and success with your project. Dying to see pics as it progresses. The only thing I know about paint is that you can get a flat shiny finish if you use mono coat non metallic paint - ie no lacquer- and then machine polish the finished product. Mechanical things I enjoy, paint and woodwork I am rubbish at. Hope to see you in October if this madness is over!! |
Richard Greene
Experienced User Username: benzjag
Post Number: 194 Registered: 12-2012
| Posted on Wednesday, 25 March, 2020 - 09:03: | |
I have used POR15 for about 25 years! I used it first on my 1962 Jaguar XKE OTS and then on several Mercedes & Jaguars. I painted it on surface rust and on bare metal (not recommended by the company). Today, the surfaces are exactly like they were 25 years ago! Back then, I painted a rusty can with POR15 (and regular paint) and left it outside (nailed to a post) to see exactly what it would do. The regular paint has chipped off, but the POR15 is like it was when I applied it.. Needless to say, I love the product. I really think Rust Bullet and Miracle Paint are the same as POR15. This is just my personal test! Richard |
Robert J. Sprauer
Frequent User Username: wraithman
Post Number: 600 Registered: 11-2017
| Posted on Wednesday, 25 March, 2020 - 10:02: | |
"Orange peel" is the result of several factors. Wrong nozzle size to media Pressure Poor temp range for reducer Too warm These are major culprits. ALL top coats either single stage or basecoat/clearcoat when dried, has to be cut and polished for maximum shine. 2K paints, for best results, has to be clear-coated within a time frame after the base is applied and warmed in a booth to cure. Very few clears can be successfully dried at room temp. |
Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer
Post Number: 2278 Registered: 09-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, 25 March, 2020 - 18:09: | |
Most cars from British Leyland had the expert finish known as "orange peel" Moving up a gear the real safe profit making time saving way is to use "Vapor blasting" Only as good as the operator, even developed and used by RR I seem to think. |
Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Prolific User Username: soviet
Post Number: 1698 Registered: 02-2013
| Posted on Wednesday, 25 March, 2020 - 10:45: | |
Richard what grade paper do you cut back with? What temperature should the baking booth be? At certain times of the year I have a 46C degree in the shade ambient temperature and in the middle of summer any closed shed will reach 60C without a heater. Unfortunately humidity can rise above 90 percent. Does two pack suffer from humidity blisters?
(Message approved by david_gore) |
Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer
Post Number: 2280 Registered: 09-2004
| Posted on Thursday, 26 March, 2020 - 00:11: | |
Just plan for doing the job in the middle of June or keep an eye out for low humidity. Job done. |
Trevor Hodgekinson
Experienced User Username: wm20
Post Number: 169 Registered: 11-2006
| Posted on Friday, 27 March, 2020 - 08:43: | |
Vlad, A link to the video would help. The problem with most of these people is the last thing they do is read the instructions. I have been using POR 15 for decades and would not even think of putting anything else on the bottom Te problem with every other type of finish 1 pack , 2 pack or 10 pack is they all gas and the gas exiting the liquid leaves a tunnel. The tunnel allows moisture a way to get in.\Once in the heat / cols cycles eventually cause the water to penetrate between every layer of paint & eventually right down to the base metal. Differing oxygen potential will then drive the rusting of the metal under the paint which goes on for a long time till the Hydrogen libberated creates the rust bubble we are all familiar with. POR 15 can be applied over what appears to be bare metal because bare metal exists for a few nanno seconds after you finish the stripping . The instant any bare metal is exposed to the atmosphere it starts to oxadise . We do not see it because the "rust spots" are just too small to be seen with the naked eye. The furane resins in POR 15 do not generate gas when hardening so there are no exit tunnels thus there is no way moisture can get inand this is vital in places where the item stays damp for extended periods so the prime use as a chassis coating. However there are a lot of other places like around a spot weld where moisture will wick in and stay for a very long time. On exterior surfaces you can get away with multiple coats of lesser finishes with the hope that the exit tunnels on the upper coat will not line up with those below it. The exit tunnels is also the reason why silicon polish is so hard to remove and why wax polish can adhere to and protect your paint. Modern auto paints are marvelous examples of chemistry & liquid physics . They are designed to go on with the minimum of surface preperation , be easy to apply , leave a good finish off the gun & provide an adequate level of protection for a reasonable length of time which will be 5 to 20 years depending upon the quality of the paint being used . Auto paint in OZ takes a beating because we get a higher dose of UV than any where else in the world and it is the UV that destroys your paint and in the case of POR 15 it is very sensitive to UV so if you take a month to put the top coat on then you have wasted your time putting the POR 15 on in the first place. For a lot of vehicles it is overkill but on a roller that will last for another 50+ years then it is worth while, particularly on the floor panels around the sills and the inside of the cabin air box |
Patrick Ryan
Grand Master Username: patrick_r
Post Number: 2204 Registered: 04-2016
| Posted on Saturday, 28 March, 2020 - 04:31: | |
Very interesting read Trevor. Thanks for sharing. |
Patrick Francis
Frequent User Username: jackpot
Post Number: 327 Registered: 11-2016
| Posted on Sunday, 29 March, 2020 - 05:49: | |
I hear that there are regulations being introduced in Europe only allowing water based car paints for the future. Anyone heard of this? |
David Gore
Moderator Username: david_gore
Post Number: 3651 Registered: 04-2003
| Posted on Sunday, 29 March, 2020 - 09:24: | |
When I last looked at using POR 15 about 15 years ago, I recall seeing a recommendation for wetting new bare metal and leaving it exposed to the air until it developed a fine "patina" of rust to enhance adhesion before applying a coat of POR 15. I have heard favourable references of this product being used for RR/B restorations especially vehicles imported from overseas. . |
David Gore
Moderator Username: david_gore
Post Number: 3652 Registered: 04-2003
| Posted on Sunday, 29 March, 2020 - 09:28: | |
Patrick, I have heard references to water-based automotive paints being used for some time by various car manufacturers but didn't take much notice at the time. Found the following vehicle restoration article which might be of interest after a quick search: http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/paint-body/1605-working-with-waterborne-paint-is-easy-if-you-follow-these-guidelines/ . |
Trevor Hodgekinson
Experienced User Username: wm20
Post Number: 170 Registered: 11-2006
| Posted on Monday, 30 March, 2020 - 09:42: | |
World wide EPA's are busy finding things that pretend to be doing something to save the planet. So preventing the solvents evaporating into the air is a good idea to them. However mandating minimum life spans for products so the paint lasts for 40 years would be a far better one. There would be far less pollution if everyone on the plant drove a Rolls Royce. Not because they are "clean " vehicles but because they last for decades so the embedded pollution in the car /year of operating ends up being very low. All of these You-beaut non polluting electric vehicles need to run for 10 years before their embedded pollution matches that of a conventional vehicle. Unfortunately environmentalists all failed maths and of course the only pollution in their eyes is what comes out of the tail pipe because you can shove a meter in it and get a definitive result. The pollution involved in making & disposing of a vehicle is a lot harder to work out and so do an evaluation of: 1. The production of copper metal is far more polluting than the production of steel. 2. The safe disposal of or recycling of the lithium ion batteries is another item for the too hard basket. So we get regulations that mandate we buy chain saws that will have less that 200 hours of service life before the engines are worn out, same story for lawnmowers, as if the volume of exhaust will make a wrinkled rats rectum of difference on a global scale when compared to the ever increasing volume of jet air travel. And some clot sits in an office collects production figures of solvent based paint the calculates just how much solvent is released into the atmosphere and goes into a panic. So products that work very well get replaced with products that do not work or end up being far more toxic than what they replaced. Non lead solder is a perfect example. |