Hydraulic lifters / valves Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Register | Edit Profile

Australian RR Forums » Silver Shadow Series » Hydraulic lifters / valves « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Patrick Francis
Frequent User
Username: jackpot

Post Number: 313
Registered: 11-2016
Posted on Friday, 13 March, 2020 - 09:59:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi All
I thought I had just posted something, but it seems to have disappeared into then ether!

I have an uneven idle which I have narrowed down to A1 cylinder (front right). When I disconnect the plug lead to this cylinder, it makes no difference.

I suspected and changed plug lead, spark plug distributor cap distributor arm etc etc.
I also put a colortune plug in and could see the spark in then cylinder.
I thought it might be low compression, but all cylinders are 11bar give or take.

There does not seem to be fuel/air getting into the cylinder.

I suspect that either my inlet or exhaust valve is not opening.

How do I check this? Is it probably that the hydraulic lifter has failed? Or maybe just stuck?Does this happen? How easy is it to fix?

Any advice welcome. Thanks.

Patrick
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Robert J. Sprauer
Frequent User
Username: wraithman

Post Number: 589
Registered: 11-2017
Posted on Friday, 13 March, 2020 - 11:08:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Pull the rocker cover, pull coil lead, and then have someone turn over the engine and observe the valve/spring action. If there was an issue with the valve, lifter, spring, it would show up during the compression check.
Part of problem solving is ruling out the suspects.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 3625
Registered: 04-2003
Posted on Friday, 13 March, 2020 - 12:19:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Patrick,

If the lifter is stuck in the collapsed state, you will certainly hear the continuous characteristic clatter of a lifter in this condition when starting the car. No clatter means the lifter is pumping up normally.

Next step would be to take the rocker cover off and check for a broken push rod or rocker stopping the relevant valve functioning as intended.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mark Aldridge
Frequent User
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 663
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Friday, 13 March, 2020 - 19:33:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Patrick, if the compression test at cranking speed is ok, then I would guess the valve operating gear is ok. Could it be a sticking valve at running speed.?
Mark
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

gordon le feuvre
Frequent User
Username: triumph

Post Number: 331
Registered: 07-2012
Posted on Friday, 13 March, 2020 - 19:45:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I'V had couple Shadow 11 with plug problems, always A1 fouling. issue was oil getting down valve guide. Could this be cause of lack compression/valve sticking/carbon-assuming this is issue
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Patrick Francis
Frequent User
Username: jackpot

Post Number: 314
Registered: 11-2016
Posted on Friday, 13 March, 2020 - 21:12:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thank you all for the input. This is an interesting problem. I have a working garage next to my store and everybody is scratching their heads over it.
I am and have had for a while oil seepage from the valve seals- always worse on A1. So have considered the advice of going for hotter plugs.
My spark also seems weak, but I can see it working with the colortune plug installed, yet disconnecting the lead stops the spark but no difference to the idle.
I have also tried reading the exhaust manifold temperature at each cylinder but this was inconclusive.
Hmmmm..... thinking......
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jeff Martin
New User
Username: jeff_r_1

Post Number: 17
Registered: 07-2018
Posted on Saturday, 14 March, 2020 - 02:07:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Do another compression test and note the first stroke on the gauge needle on the problem cylinder, do the same for the rest and they should be close to each other.
When doing this, it's important not to keep cranking to get the maximum compression.
What this test determines is the initial compression on one compression stroke.
This may show up any slight valve leakage problems that may be affecting the idle only , but goes away under normal driving conditions.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Omar M. Shams
Prolific User
Username: omar

Post Number: 1952
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Saturday, 14 March, 2020 - 02:34:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dear Patrick,
The colourtune replaces the spark plug. You will see the colourtune sparking - not your own spark plug. Try a range of different spark plugs to see if an increasing hotter plug changes things. Beware not to overdo the heat though.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 2267
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Saturday, 14 March, 2020 - 05:58:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Time to look at procedure not suspects unless it is a game of trial and error!

Fist check dwell then coil output then check for a failing ballast.
If ok Check for carburation failings, air leaks can happen when the engine gets hot due to the centre intake manifold "O" ring failing with incorrect centre bolt torqueing.

BTW when doing compression testing one should always have the throttle fully open when cranking.
Also check all vacuum hoses etc.

As for a leaking valve seal or seals get the engine hot and do down a long hill with no throttle look out the rear view mirror the road will be filled with a blue haze confirming seal probs.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Patrick Francis
Frequent User
Username: jackpot

Post Number: 315
Registered: 11-2016
Posted on Saturday, 14 March, 2020 - 06:22:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks again guys:
Jeff, sorry I didnít mention, but I did do this. All cylinders go up to about 8 bar on first stroke.
Hi Omar, if the colortune sparks, then it should be igniting the mixture. Usually a colortune will show a blue to red flame, depending on mixture. Nothing on mine- only the spark.
Patrick, I have electronic ignition, and I changed plug, pick up, ignition unit, coil, dizzie cap and roto arm.
I will be going on to carburation soon in desperation!
My next step will be to remove rocker cover and see that all looks normal.
Best regards from a Gibraltar slowly going into Corona Lockdown.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 2193
Registered: 05-2012
Posted on Saturday, 14 March, 2020 - 07:11:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I will be going on to carburation soon in desperation!

First thing I would check is the balance of the carbs. If they are out of balance this could explain why A1 is getting a mixture that is too lean to ignite.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Patrick Francis
Frequent User
Username: jackpot

Post Number: 316
Registered: 11-2016
Posted on Saturday, 14 March, 2020 - 07:50:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

That would be the left hand side carb Geoff?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 2194
Registered: 05-2012
Posted on Saturday, 14 March, 2020 - 08:16:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

From Bob Reynolds -

Each carb feeds the outer cylinders on its own bank, and the inner cylinders of the opposite bank.

So it would be the right hand side.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jeff Martin
New User
Username: jeff_r_1

Post Number: 18
Registered: 07-2018
Posted on Saturday, 14 March, 2020 - 08:44:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Checking carburation, timing, spark, etc... Doesn't make sense that only one cylinder would be effected.
Brother in law had a Chev station wagon, it behaved the same, only worse, good compression, good spark, overhauled the carb, on and on.
Eventually we found the cam was worn where it wasn't opening the exhaust valves long enough to let out the exhaust. The intake lobes weren't too bad, but they were worn too.
I would be removing the rocker covers Patrick and checking how much the rockers lift and make sure they are with in spec.

EDIT:
And of course the obvious, change two plugs around and see if the problem moves to "that" cylinder". Don't assume new plugs are not faulty, same with wires, even if the colour tune shows spark.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

ross kowalski
Prolific User
Username: cdfpw

Post Number: 1320
Registered: 11-2015
Posted on Saturday, 14 March, 2020 - 08:45:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Patrick,

Did you say you are not getting any fire with the colortune?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

ross kowalski
Prolific User
Username: cdfpw

Post Number: 1321
Registered: 11-2015
Posted on Saturday, 14 March, 2020 - 08:47:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Patrick,

Spark but no fire on that hole would indicate a serious cam and or valve issue.

Also running on 7 cylinders will definitely give a rough idle.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

ross kowalski
Prolific User
Username: cdfpw

Post Number: 1322
Registered: 11-2015
Posted on Saturday, 14 March, 2020 - 08:49:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Patrick,

Also, if you find you are sparking, and the valves work, don't discount a rag left in the intake. Trust me, that's happened as well.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jeff Martin
New User
Username: jeff_r_1

Post Number: 19
Registered: 07-2018
Posted on Saturday, 14 March, 2020 - 10:49:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Some history may also be helpful Patrick, when did this start, did it just happen one morning and it was fine just the night before, or did it come on gradually and if so, how long has this been going on ?
Usually mechanical problems like broken or collapsed valve springs will happen suddenly and not over time.

Failed springs don't necessarily make noise.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Larry Kavanagh
Frequent User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 597
Registered: 05-2016
Posted on Saturday, 14 March, 2020 - 11:06:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Is it possible that you could have inadvertently rearranged plug lead firing order sequence while replacing the distributor cap?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Patrick Francis
Frequent User
Username: jackpot

Post Number: 317
Registered: 11-2016
Posted on Saturday, 14 March, 2020 - 17:26:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

With color tune I am getting spark but no fire.

I think this may have been happening gradually, since I noticed it a while ago. I took the plug out and noticed it slightly oily (guide seals).

I thought that the oil had caused the oil to foul the plug, but I now realize that the oil was so slight that it was there because there was no ignition of the cylinder probably.

An then it went away, and also my idle would have an occasional burble which I now think came from that cylinder, but at the time I put down to a rich mixture.

I have swapped plugs and tried new ones. Triple checked that leads are not mixed up - disconnecting every other lead gives a slight drop in idle.

The rag in the inlet, or some othe blockage has not been discarded!!

Thanks guys
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Omar M. Shams
Prolific User
Username: omar

Post Number: 1954
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Saturday, 14 March, 2020 - 20:27:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Rocker cover off job Patrick.
You need to see the two valves open and close (or otherwise) to have a conclusion.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Patrick Francis
Frequent User
Username: jackpot

Post Number: 318
Registered: 11-2016
Posted on Sunday, 15 March, 2020 - 02:09:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Yep. With you there Omar.
With the world going mad, all I want to do is lock myself in the garage and work on my car!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Trevor Hodgekinson
Experienced User
Username: wm20

Post Number: 166
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Monday, 16 March, 2020 - 07:04:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

But can you fix it in 14 days.
BEcause I am now a small engine technician I have a Bore O Scope.
You can get really cheap ones that hook up to your PC and are powered by the USB connection They are worthwhile as you can see inside the cylinder to check for things like a valve stuck open.
Another trick is to run the engine for 5 minutes , turn it off then pull the dipstick and check for smoke coming out.
That is an indication of a head gasket which has blown between the cylinder & the oil galleries / drain holes / pushrod tubes etc.
If you have some where quiet you can pull the dip stick or oil fill out and rotate the engine using a ratchet on the crankshaft nut ( a lo harder than it sounds ) and listen for air gushing out when A1 is at TDC .
On small engines I remove the other plugs when doing this .
Some soapy water applied to the exhaust manifold while cranking the engine with the coil disconnected so it does not start will find a leak to the exhaust.
Some WD 40 ( or similar ) from a trigger pack , NOT A SPRAY CAN liberally applied around the inlet manifold with the engine running will find a leak by blowing white WD 40 smoke from the exhaust.
To check the spark plug you should really use a HOT plug from another cylinder not a new one out of the box.
Idiot EPA regulations have forced plug makers to abandon the use of glaze on the nose insulator .Add to that modern fuel, which is really a light fuel oil with some aromatics tossed in so the car will start from cold plus down ere whatever discarder organic solvents the fuel companies can get their hands on.
The net effect of this is modern fuels will conduct electricity at cylinder compression over 60 psi and if the engine misses on the first couple of cycles then that plug is dead till the engine gets really hot.
Using a hot plug prevents the fuel condensing on the plug nose insulator.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 2197
Registered: 05-2012
Posted on Monday, 16 March, 2020 - 08:49:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

You can get really cheap ones that hook up to your PC and are powered by the USB connection

I found the depstech boroscope to be very usable at just 23 bucks. Certainly a great addition to your toolkit.

https://www.amazon.com/DEPSTECH-Ultra-Thin-Inspection-Semi-Rigid-Adpater-16-5ft/dp/B0836XWPJH/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?dchild=1&keywords=USB+Endoscope%2C+DEPSTECH+2+in+1+Semi-Rigid+Borescope+Inspection+Camera+2.0MP+CMOS&qid=1584312004&s=electronics&sr=8-1-fkmr0}
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 2270
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Monday, 16 March, 2020 - 18:41:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

If you have one after finding you have low compression, use and carry out a cylinder leakage test! in this case you have not ie [but all cylinders are 11bar give or take.]
If you do find a cylinder fault with the leakage tester and need to confirm it is a cracked wet liner or piston crown or a piston ring failure then one of these is a good tool.
Had and use this one for years!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Martin Taylor
Experienced User
Username: martin_taylor

Post Number: 174
Registered: 07-2013
Posted on Monday, 16 March, 2020 - 21:19:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I donít know how you might have missed it but......
If your cruise control vacuum pipe is leaking broken or simply open to atmosphere you will have a very weak mixture on the front right cylinder only,
Block this off and test before taking anything else apart.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Patrick Francis
Frequent User
Username: jackpot

Post Number: 319
Registered: 11-2016
Posted on Tuesday, 24 March, 2020 - 10:31:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Martin,
I think you might deserve a medal of some sort. Funnily enough, I have been having trouble with my cruise control at around the time this was happening, it suddenly stopped working and was making a strange noise. I took it apart, oiled it (I did a complete restoration on it about a year ago) and the noise stopped but it was working erratically.
I have just put the car into my garage because we go into total lockdown here in Gibraltar tomorrow, and I was going to start an in depth investigation.
I know what the first thing I am going to look at is.
Thanks for that - you may have saved my sanity.
I hope everybody is good and keeping safe.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Patrick Francis
Frequent User
Username: jackpot

Post Number: 320
Registered: 11-2016
Posted on Wednesday, 25 March, 2020 - 07:59:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

My cruise control bleeds directly to the atmosphere, so 99% that is the problem. I will start her up and check tomorrow.
Martin, you are legend. Thank you.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Patrick Francis
Frequent User
Username: jackpot

Post Number: 322
Registered: 11-2016
Posted on Thursday, 26 March, 2020 - 07:01:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Confirmed that the problem was the cruise control. Blocked the vacuum pipe and now she purrs.

To all those that get an occasional burble on idle or worse, check the cruise control unit, or even better, just block it off.

So easy to check, just remove the vacuum hose from inlet manifold on cylinder A1, and suck through it - should have no passage of air. Any slight leak will give you an occasional burble on idle.

I am sure this has been getting worse slowly over time, and I was going to get hotter plugs and I was worried that cylinder was getting tired. Quite the opposite, I did check vacuum hoses on various occasions, but never thought to check the unit itself.

Thank you all for your input.

Martin, please go to the top of the class.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

ross kowalski
Prolific User
Username: cdfpw

Post Number: 1335
Registered: 11-2015
Posted on Thursday, 26 March, 2020 - 21:52:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Patrick,

That is great news. No engine work, just a cork in the cruise control!

Was the problem a perished diaphragm in the cruise control unit?

How big is the vacuum port to the cruise control and how close to the cylinder.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Larry Kavanagh
Frequent User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 600
Registered: 05-2016
Posted on Friday, 27 March, 2020 - 07:20:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I'm off to check mine in the morning before SWMBO corners me with some other chore.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Patrick Francis
Frequent User
Username: jackpot

Post Number: 323
Registered: 11-2016
Posted on Friday, 27 March, 2020 - 08:14:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Ok, having taken the cruise control apart:
1. When I reconditioned it last, I kept the original paper gasket and assembled with some sealant that was not gasket sealant that seems to have decomposed a bit. Also the gasket has hardened beyond being reusable.
2. I have just made a new gasket and bedded the nylon electromechanical assembly with hylomar.
3. The little solenoid with a rubber seal on the end does not seem to be sealing properly. I am still assembling, so not sure why yet. If this does not seal, you will get air bleeding in.
4. All the repairs will be a waste of time if you do not connect the tubes the right way round. I know it is somewhere on the forum, but I will check which is which physically, and post soon. I think from memory, M goes to Manifold and S to Speed control.
Ross, the vacuum connection is on the top front of the RHS manifold, right next to A1 inlet port. Very easy to see by tracing the vacuum line.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Patrick Francis
Frequent User
Username: jackpot

Post Number: 324
Registered: 11-2016
Posted on Friday, 27 March, 2020 - 08:32:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

http://rrtechnical.info/SY/TSD4200/speedostat.pdf

It looks like the nature of the beast is to bleed various amounts of outside air into the system to keep the speed constant.

So will probably run slightly lean whilst working anyway?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Martin Taylor
Experienced User
Username: martin_taylor

Post Number: 176
Registered: 07-2013
Posted on Friday, 27 March, 2020 - 18:05:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Glad you have it sorted, only RR would take a seperate vacuum feed from one intake runner, if your vacuum modulator line fails it gives a lean idle on A3 I think.
With these failures it mostly only causes problems at idle under high manifold vacuum, when engine speed increase so does airflow through the intake runners and the leak becomes less significant to the mixture.
Including your vehicle Iíve now seen this failure four times.

Thatís not how the cruise works, it is a mechanical difference engine, when engaged it uses vacuum to pull the throttle if speed decreases, if speed increases the bellows are vented to atmosphere which lets air in to reduce throttle, when working properly and sealed the two different valves or pressure differences never meet.
The seat of the solenoid (in the cruise unit) is probably the cause of your fault if the hose is intact.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Patrick Francis
Frequent User
Username: jackpot

Post Number: 325
Registered: 11-2016
Posted on Saturday, 28 March, 2020 - 06:58:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Yes, spot on Martin. It was the solenoid seal and seat- and the spongey spring was also a bit weak.
All fixed and together now.
Do you know what the little allen key adjustment does please?
Also definitely M goes to Manifold.
What is a vacuum modulator by the way?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Graham Phillips
Frequent User
Username: playtime

Post Number: 243
Registered: 03-2019
Posted on Saturday, 28 March, 2020 - 10:15:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

G'day everyone,....


Don't mix up the vacuum modulator with the Iluddium Q 36 explosive Space Modulator.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu9gva2LZBw&feature=emb_logo

Graham.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Martin Taylor
Experienced User
Username: martin_taylor

Post Number: 177
Registered: 07-2013
Posted on Saturday, 28 March, 2020 - 20:37:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The vacuum modulator is on the transmission, it senses throttle position by vacuum depression to alter the change points of the transmission, failure of this line gives a similar problem on the rear cylinder but is more obvious as gear changes will be late.
Iím not sure which Allen screw you are referring to.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Patrick Francis
Frequent User
Username: jackpot

Post Number: 326
Registered: 11-2016
Posted on Sunday, 29 March, 2020 - 04:26:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Graham
Thanks for the heads up, I'll keep an eye that!!

Martin, The allen screw is as shown in the top picture which seems to be a regulation of sorts (fast/slow?). It adjusts the eccentric cam that the spring rests on in the second picture.
Thanks
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Martin Taylor
Experienced User
Username: martin_taylor

Post Number: 178
Registered: 07-2013
Posted on Sunday, 29 March, 2020 - 16:37:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

That adjusts the air bleed rate when the speed increases, it also centres the valve between the vacuum and venting points, best avoid touching it. These things can be calibrated with a drill and a vacuum and power supply, however it is not much more work to replace the entire unit with an electronic version which with a little modification will drive the existing bellows with the factory switch gear.

Add Your Message Here
Post:
Bold text Italics Underline Create a hyperlink Insert a clipart image

Username: Posting Information:
This is a public posting area. Enter your username and password if you have an account. Otherwise, enter your full name as your username and leave the password blank. Your e-mail address is optional.
Please quote Chassis Numbers for all vehicles mentioned.
Password:
E-mail:
Options: Enable HTML code in message
Automatically activate URLs in message
Action: