Hydraulic pump ticking noise Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Register | Edit Profile

Australian RR Forums » Silver Shadow Series » Hydraulic pump ticking noise « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Patrick Francis
Frequent User
Username: jackpot

Post Number: 307
Registered: 11-2016
Posted on Monday, 24 February, 2020 - 08:28:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Guys

1. Both my hydraulic pumps have been overhauled.

2. The rear one still make a ticking noise sporadically.

3. After some investigation, I have now discovered that the ticking stops when the accumulators are up to pressure - so the ticking only occurs when the pump is doing work.(this may help others who have not narrowed down why and when they tick!)

4. Since I replaced a pushrod in this one, I thought that it is a clearance/shim issue.

5. In the workshop manual in section G5 (hydraulic pumps), there is a reference made to section E10 for shim measurements, but there is nothing in section E10. Does anyone know where the shim washer thicknesses are mentioned please?
Also any advice or suggestion is more than welcome please.

6. On another note, I am trying to get to my personal profile to change my email address, but cannot seem to find how (probably staring me in the face). Guidance please?

Thanks
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Larry Kavanagh
Frequent User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 585
Registered: 05-2016
Posted on Monday, 24 February, 2020 - 09:17:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Patrick, The shim measurements you're looking for are given in TSD4200, Section E11. Before going to the trouble of removing the pump again check that the 1/4" pipe from the pump to the ACV isn't touching or too close to any other component as this can cause a ticking noise in tandem with the pump pulsations as the pipe vibrates against something solid. Also, if there's any air trapped at the top end of that pipe a tapping noise in tandem with pump pulsations caused by cavitation in the pipe will be heard, the way to clear any air there is to depressurise the system, connect a bleed tube to the ACV bleed screw, open the bleed screw and start the engine, any air should expel and then tighten the bleed screw with the engine still running, if that does the trick you will notice the pump sounding quieter soon after the ACV bleed screw is closed. You will then need to bleed the remainder of the No.2 hydraulic system. Another cause of a ticking pump is often a clogged filter in the reservoir which restricts the gravity feed to the pump. You could hopefully save yourself hardship if you check out the usual suspects before delving in and removing the pump. Good Luck, Larry
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Larry Kavanagh
Frequent User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 586
Registered: 05-2016
Posted on Monday, 24 February, 2020 - 09:36:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Patrick, To change your email address just go to "edit profile" at the bottom of the menu. Your user name and email address will the appear at the top of your profile page, just type your new email address in place of the old one and save changes. You will then get a verification email containing an activation code to your new email address and simply follow the directions in that email to activate the change. Larry
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Patrick Francis
Frequent User
Username: jackpot

Post Number: 308
Registered: 11-2016
Posted on Monday, 24 February, 2020 - 17:34:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thank you Larry
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

gordon le feuvre
Frequent User
Username: triumph

Post Number: 329
Registered: 07-2012
Posted on Monday, 24 February, 2020 - 19:38:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Patrick, everything Larry says is good. When the factory changed from flex pipes to solid pipes between pumps and accum. the problem started, (early 1970 7000 series). Most annoying when car used around town/slow work as when braking to halt pressure used and whilst waiting at junction etc pump rebuilding pressure and this can be heard. Experience showed that if all else failed the non return valve in pump can cause issue-just by having witness mark on conical part valve, part no. UE35114 OR VALVE ASS. UE36649. Later cars, I think 22000 series had larger pipe out of pump to accum. Whilst factory issued spares info sheets and bulletins they were coy as WHY changes were being made-really frustrating 40 years on!I seem to recall we changed some of these non return valves with some success. listed FLYING SPARES AS 814.00 FROM FACTORY OR 170.98 AS PATTERN. really expensive gamble as to whether it will cure!!! Even spirits suffered as well.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

richard george yeaman
Prolific User
Username: richyrich

Post Number: 1142
Registered: 04-2012
Posted on Monday, 24 February, 2020 - 20:15:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Patrick if you need to pull the pumps I will bring the removal tool with me when I come over in march.

Richard.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Patrick Francis
Frequent User
Username: jackpot

Post Number: 309
Registered: 11-2016
Posted on Monday, 24 February, 2020 - 20:29:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks again guys - food for thought.
Richard, thanks for the offer but Carlos has managed to manufacture one since we had to remove the rear one a few months back. Not as pretty as yours, but it works!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Alan Dibley
Frequent User
Username: alsdibley

Post Number: 227
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Monday, 24 February, 2020 - 22:35:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I remember that during a seminar at Hunt House in about 20012 Ian ??? who was ex-RR said that the pump tick was never satisfactorily solved. Mine tick after a braking demand but then go quiet enough not to bother me. It's part of the charm of the marque?

Alan D.

Moderator Input: Alan, this most likely would have been Ian Rimmer. Ian worked at Crewe for many years as an engineer and was actively involved in the Shadow and later derivative programmes. He is a mine of information and has undertaken a number of presentations at various RROCA Federal Rallies.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Patrick Francis
Frequent User
Username: jackpot

Post Number: 310
Registered: 11-2016
Posted on Tuesday, 25 February, 2020 - 06:00:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Larry

Do I understand that air is bled better through the pump when the system is not pressured up completely?

I often wonder if the pumps might not aerate the brake fluid whilst pumping it also?

Thanks

Patrick
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 3606
Registered: 04-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 25 February, 2020 - 07:44:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Patrick,

In answer to your question - not that I am aware.

I have always been of the opinion the ticking was associated with a lack of back pressure in the pumps when in recirculation mode after recharging the accumulators.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Larry Kavanagh
Frequent User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 587
Registered: 05-2016
Posted on Tuesday, 25 February, 2020 - 08:54:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Patrick, My theory on why the pumps tick when there's air in the pump outlet pipe is that an air bubble stays at the top of the pipe which causes cavitation as the fluid is pumped through the air bubble causing the pipe to rattle. The rattle will be louder if the outside of that pipe is touching any other solid component between the pump and the ACV because the vibration will resonate even louder. Air will compress but brake fluid won't so I think the air bubble compresses as the pump is on the down stroke and expands again between strokes and this may cause cavitation but that's only my theory and I could be wrong. I know that when my pump was ticking and I was satisfied that the fluid flow from the reservoir to the pump was adequate I simply opened the ACV bleed screw and ran the engine for a few seconds and then closed the bleed screw, it's the same procedure that's used to test the output volume from the pump (I think it should pump a half pint per minute). After that my pump quietened down considerably. Hopefully you will be as lucky as I was but obviously there's no guarantee that your car's issue is the same as mine was.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Larry Kavanagh
Frequent User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 588
Registered: 05-2016
Posted on Tuesday, 25 February, 2020 - 09:06:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

That's another interesting observation that David has raised regarding lack of back pressure at the pump when in recirculating mode. I presume this could be caused by the ACV shut off valve not fully closing because of a weak spring in the ACV. There are shims available to increase the ACV spring pressure or a washer of the correct fit would also do the job. A pressure test reading at the ACV with a 3000 PSI hydraulic test gauge would probably determine if the pump ticking noise is ACV related.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Patrick Francis
Frequent User
Username: jackpot

Post Number: 311
Registered: 11-2016
Posted on Tuesday, 25 February, 2020 - 09:49:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Guys
After some head scratching and looking at diagrams, my conculsion is that when the accumulators reach pressure the fuid is directed back to the reservoir greating a cyclic low pressure closed circuit:
RESERVOIR - PUMP - ACCUMULATOR BODY - BACK TO RESERVOIR.
My conclusion is that any air in the pipe after the pump gets bled out to the reservoir naturally when this happens, so never air in this part of the circuit?
Do I make sense:
application/octet-stream
HydraulikkPro.exe (534.5 k)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Patrick Francis
Frequent User
Username: jackpot

Post Number: 312
Registered: 11-2016
Posted on Tuesday, 25 February, 2020 - 09:52:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Larry Kavanagh
Frequent User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 591
Registered: 05-2016
Posted on Tuesday, 25 February, 2020 - 11:25:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I can see where you're coming from Patrick but I reckon that any air in the pump outlet pipe stays floating at the top of that pipe when the system is closed but opening the bleed screw at the ACV allows that trapped air to be forced down and be expelled through the ACV bleed nipple while the pump is operating. Before bleeding that air bubble can't get recirculated because it's permanently floating at the top, it may move down a little with each pulsation of the pump but rise back up through flotation between pulsations so the only way to expel the air is by opening the ACV bleed screw and forcing the air out by pump pressure. Then when the bleed screw is tightened and optimum pressure is reached the ACV recirculation operates as before but without that trapped air bubble floating at the top of the pump outlet pipe and hopefully without the associated ticking sound. As I say, it worked for me and I think it's worth a try as it costs nothing other than maybe 1/4 litre of brake fluid but the cause of your pump noise may be different.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Alan Dibley
Frequent User
Username: alsdibley

Post Number: 228
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 25 February, 2020 - 18:39:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Moderator Input: Alan, this most likely would have been Ian Rimmer. Ian worked at Crewe for many years as an engineer and was actively involved in the Shadow and later derivative programmes. He is a mine of information and has undertaken a number of presentations at various RROCA Federal Rallies.

Mr Moderator, you are right. I plead extreme old age and the weight of my aristocratic title for not remembering.

Alan D. OBE(T).
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 2262
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Tuesday, 25 February, 2020 - 21:31:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

My Shadow 1 is the same but only on the rear pump ticking been like it from new however the Shadow 2 is quiet from start up with brakes applied from cold or hot.
IMO the Shadow 1 pump ticking is caused by needing a new pump push rod and re shimming if all else is ok.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Larry Kavanagh
Frequent User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 592
Registered: 05-2016
Posted on Tuesday, 25 February, 2020 - 23:10:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I agree with Patrick Lockyer that a new push rod and re-shimming is probably the answer providing "all else is OK" but I would think it prudent to verify that all else is OK before going to the trouble of removing the pump.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Patrick Francis
Frequent User
Username: jackpot

Post Number: 336
Registered: 11-2016
Posted on Sunday, 31 May, 2020 - 07:56:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Guys

Just an update and a bit more head scratching...

During this COVID period, I had a few days to spare....

I have always had this intermittent clicking coming from the rear rams - more from the right ram than the left. Getting worse as evrything warms up, and usually when the self levelling is is settling rather than raising.

The clicking became more pronounced when I converted to YAK. I tried upping the YAK% from 10% to 15%, but no change in noise.

I took both rams out, cleaned and serviced them and really examined them.

When working by hand on the bench, I noticed that they both work smoothly, but can bind a bit when there is a sideways force on the ram when you push it in, but not when you pull it out. This naturally means that the top edge of the piston binds when going in.

Looking into the cylinder, the piston is aligned in the ram by a sleeve inside the cylinder.(please see photos). There seems to be slight wear and play there.

I noticed this sleeve a while back and emailed Flying Spares and Introcar, asking if the sleeve is replaced on their serviced exchange units.

Neither Introcar nor Flying Spares admitted to knowing anything about a sleeve, or what was done to their excahnge units other than that they are serviced and bench tested. I wonder if they bench test them by putting some sideways pressure on them as well as up and down?

The sleeve seems well stuck in, and quite solid, even though there seem to be a slot down the length of it.

I re installed the rams but swapped the left for the right. Surely enough, the left is now clicking more than the right. This shows that it is definitely the rams.

I have been driving around with listening microphones taped to:
Rams, shocks, Self levelling valves, restrictor valves and slow/fast solenoid. The noise comes from the ram, and predominently when settling.

OK, so my questions are:

1. Does anybody know about the sleeve in the ram, and if it is replaceable? How is it extracted? Where can I get replacements? Are they replaced in exchange units?

2. What is the maximum Castor oil % that can be used in YAK. Actually, Castor oil has a higher boiling point than DOT4, so why can't we use pure castor oil- theoretically?

3.I suppose it is normal for the top of the spring (bottom of the ram) to have lateral forces, cuasing the ram to bind.

4. I am worried that if I replace the rams, the sleeves may not have been replaced since neither Introcar nor Flying spares are aware of them.

Anybody been down this road?

Thanks

Patrick
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Larry Kavanagh
Frequent User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 635
Registered: 05-2016
Posted on Sunday, 31 May, 2020 - 20:42:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Patrick, Jim Walters at Bristol Motors, Vancouver might be able to re-sleeve that ram but the postage cost might be prohibitive. I've seen photos of brake cylinders and accumulator control valves that he has bored out and re-sleeved with 660 bearing bronze and the results look amazing. Have a look at his site. He's a member of this forum too. In my experience the rear suspension rams creak on settling when the low pressure return restrictor valve is clogged but you would appear to have serviced the restrictors. You're making good use of your spare time during lockdown.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Hubert Kelly
Frequent User
Username: h_kelly

Post Number: 388
Registered: 03-2012
Posted on Sunday, 31 May, 2020 - 23:00:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Larry, does it not sound more like air in the rams?. You know the method of bleeding same.... , should a load be applied to a bench test also?.
Obviously it's just a suggestion.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Stephen Bardwell
New User
Username: cobard71

Post Number: 16
Registered: 03-2020
Posted on Monday, 01 June, 2020 - 03:12:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi, I was advised that the rear suspension is a nightmare on these cars and it's best just to leave them well alone as can be run without? Is this the case?. I have not even got to suspension on my shadow 2..interesting thread..
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 2038
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Monday, 01 June, 2020 - 04:53:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Patrick,
Is that sleeve fitted inside both rams?
I think someone has bored them out and sleeved them.
You can do the same. Bore these sleeves out and have new ones inserted - or better still buy a pair of rams from a donor car. They are cheap enough in your country.

You cannot use pure castor oil or anything above a 20% mixture because the viscosity of castor oil is almost like treacle (not quite but closer to treacle than brake fluid).
Any more than 20% and you will have issues with viscosity.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Kelly Opfar
Frequent User
Username: kelly_opfar

Post Number: 253
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Monday, 01 June, 2020 - 05:13:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Patrick, there are no sleeves inside the rams. They are machined that way. If you look closely, you'll see that the rams are assembled and soldered together from three distinct assemblies. They are not made from a 1 piece casting.
The longitudinal groove is machined in placed and is present in all rams.
It is possible that your ram housings have too much play in them and are probably unsalvageable.
I would suggest taking them to a local hydraulic shop where the bores can be evaluated with internal tri-mics (Mitutoyo calls them Holtest mics, Browne and Sharpe calls them Intrimiks) or bore gages.
The pictures you have posted suggest that there is some fretting on the portion you call the sleeve. They might be oversized and if the pistons are not kept in a straight line, they can hang up on the way up (when the back of the car goes down). Is there any apparent damage on the piston?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Larry Kavanagh
Frequent User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 636
Registered: 05-2016
Posted on Monday, 01 June, 2020 - 06:35:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hubert, You might be right about air in the rams, creaking noises often are cured when the rams are fully bled and the No.2 pressure switch is bled also.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Larry Kavanagh
Frequent User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 637
Registered: 05-2016
Posted on Monday, 01 June, 2020 - 06:40:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Stephen, the fluid supply to the rams can be plugged and the car can be driven without rear hydraulic assist but the rear springs might need to be upgraded if rear passengers or weight are to be carried as the rear can sag under load.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Stephen Bardwell
New User
Username: cobard71

Post Number: 17
Registered: 03-2020
Posted on Monday, 01 June, 2020 - 08:06:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks Larry. I will put another thread on forum. Christine.. My car, Stephen King's finest, the 1st hydraulic fluid reservoir stays full. 2nd empties in seconds from in from in front of rear passenger wheel arch.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Patrick Francis
Frequent User
Username: jackpot

Post Number: 337
Registered: 11-2016
Posted on Monday, 01 June, 2020 - 08:32:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Kelly
Thank you for that information, that is very informative. I presume the groove is to allow the fluid to lubricate the length of the piston.
There did not seem to be any damage to the piston, although I did not measure them, only gave them a visual check.
I presume it would only be normal that the rams have some lateral pressure on them which would eventually cause them to wear?
I was looking to see if I could rotate them by 90 degrees when I reinstalled them, but they only fit one way.
I suppose exchange units are in order?

Stephen, the rear self levelling can be plugged, but when you have a full load and the rear sags, there is a vibration from the rear half shafts (Trunnions) since they do not like running off the horizontal. I have experienced this often.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Graham Phillips
Frequent User
Username: playtime

Post Number: 276
Registered: 03-2019
Posted on Monday, 01 June, 2020 - 15:34:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

G'day everyone,....

Stephen, sounds like the leak may be at a joint not connected correctly, may even be cross-threaded.


Graham.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Patrick Francis
Frequent User
Username: jackpot

Post Number: 338
Registered: 11-2016
Posted on Tuesday, 02 June, 2020 - 15:41:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Omar
Thanks for the info on the castor oil. Seems the lubricant in the fluid is for both the pumps and the rams.
I will be looking to replace the rams now. Either donors or exchange units from Flying spare or Introcar.
Keep well.
Patrick
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Patrick Francis
Frequent User
Username: jackpot

Post Number: 340
Registered: 11-2016
Posted on Monday, 08 June, 2020 - 09:15:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi All
Just before I splash out on two new rams, does anyone know how much latera pressure there would normally be at the top of the rams.
Old leaf spring suspension often used the leaf spring to locate the rear axle, so took most of the lateral force.
In the Shadow suspension, I presume there is lateral pressure on the springs when the bushings flex. Also the suspension travels in a wide arc so by design there would be some lateral pressure through the suspension movement.
I did replace my rear springs a while back, and I am worried the spring may not be sitting straight...
Any opinions and thoughts on this are welcome.

This brings me to an issue discussed in various posts. Should the self levelling suspension be at its most compressed when the car is straight and level., by using packing under the springs to get it that way. Or should thE hydraulics adjust the ride height?

Having dismantled and examined the rams, it seem that the further extended they are, the more leverage there is on the end of the ram, so any lateral forces would amplify the wear inside the cylinder. Therefore the best position for the ram to be in, is the fully compressed position which would have least possibility of wearing.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Graham Phillips
Frequent User
Username: playtime

Post Number: 280
Registered: 03-2019
Posted on Monday, 08 June, 2020 - 19:09:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

G'day everyone,....


The ride height should be set without any loads in the vehicle.

The ride leveling system should only be actuated if you have any weight in the back.



Graham.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

gordon le feuvre
Frequent User
Username: triumph

Post Number: 348
Registered: 07-2012
Posted on Tuesday, 09 June, 2020 - 02:42:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Patrick, as Graham says the car is set up so that with 150lb on each front seat, 10 gallons of fuel the rams should NOT be extended at all. The car should be sitting just on road springs. Only when extra weight is added i.e. extra passengers or luggage should the height control rams be extended to level car back up. The early cars -pre about 16000 have rubber isolators at top of rear road spring where ram piston screws into. This allowed any natural bow in spring to be excentuated. We used to fit wedges under springs to straighten them up. Fix was later (solid) retro fitable isolators. You need to fully read section H8 of shadow manual AND Service Bulletin H17 that can be found in the Bentley Heritage site under Technical and then TSD 2859 bulletins 1965-71. This bulletin explains how to set up correct standing height by adding shims to to amount already in car.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 2321
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Tuesday, 09 June, 2020 - 04:32:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

With running the cost efficient and non polluting LPG, the added weight of the LPG tank makes the set easy with the rubber coil spring helpers.



.

Add Your Message Here
Post:
Bold text Italics Underline Create a hyperlink Insert a clipart image

Username: Posting Information:
This is a public posting area. Enter your username and password if you have an account. Otherwise, enter your full name as your username and leave the password blank. Your e-mail address is optional.
Please quote Chassis Numbers for all vehicles mentioned.
Password:
E-mail:
Options: Enable HTML code in message
Automatically activate URLs in message
Action: