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Jeff McCarthy
Grand Master
Username: jefmac2003

Post Number: 617
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Wednesday, 08 May, 2019 - 01:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I have a chance to get a set of the original pair of metal air filters for my Shadow I in excellent condition.

I have read elsewhere that the filters are inadequate, especially for dusty conditions like rural Australia?

Is this true? My reason for considering them is ease of taking them out and putting them back in versus the newer paper filter.

I'm not prepared to take any risk of getting dirt in the engine for this convenience though. I've read about and decided against the K&N filters suggested by others so it's either keep using the later single paper filters or go back to the metal originals.

Any considerations?
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Graham Phillips
Frequent User
Username: playtime

Post Number: 78
Registered: 3-2019
Posted on Wednesday, 08 May, 2019 - 02:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

G'day everyone,...


Funny you mention air filters because the other day I opened up where the air filter is on mine and my filter looks like two separate filters back to back. they look weird to me.

I had to remove the air ducting to get the metal cover off because you can't remove it unless you remove the ducting because the hood spring is in the way.

I want to get the part number off of it so I can look for a place to source the filter from.



Graham.
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Jeff McCarthy
Grand Master
Username: jefmac2003

Post Number: 618
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Wednesday, 08 May, 2019 - 02:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Graham it sounds like you have the original metal filters - like potscrubbers wrapped in wire. They are cleanable I'm told. As for their effectiveness stay tuned.

The paper replacements are available from the usual sources in the UK (postage, GST and the danger of a customs inspection bill notwithstanding).

Someone may know of a source for the paper replacement filters locally and hopefully they'll post here. You could always contact Bob Chapman as well - he may have some of either type in his spares

There is also a solution using a K&N filter (also cleanable thus justifying the initial cost).

http://rr-b.s3-website-us-east-1.amazonaws.com/RRSSII_KandN.html

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Mike Thompson
Grand Master
Username: vroomrr

Post Number: 421
Registered: 4-2019
Posted on Wednesday, 08 May, 2019 - 03:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I had K & N filters on my BMW, they are only good if you drive your car through a clean room at Intell. Not made for anywhere where there is dust.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 3272
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 08 May, 2019 - 07:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

From my time in the mining and quarry industry in the 1970/1980's where airborne dust is an ever-present fact, every engine was fitted with a Donaldson "CycloPac" prefilter to remove the airborne dust before the intake air met the engine cartridge air filters.

These used a cyclonic circulation of the intake air to create centrifugal force which removed the dust particles from the air stream thus increasing the service life of the paper elements:

https://www.donaldson.com/en-au/engine/filters/products/air-intake/cleaners/

Now the hard part, finding space for a suitable prefilter in the engine bay.....
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Mike Thompson
Grand Master
Username: vroomrr

Post Number: 423
Registered: 4-2019
Posted on Thursday, 09 May, 2019 - 12:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Sounds like a vacuum cleaner (Hoover) that has the dirt spin around. It louvers the air into a vortex that (I guess) spits the dust out before it sends it to the air filter. Does it restrict air flow to turbos?
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 3273
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 09 May, 2019 - 08:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Mike,

There is no obstruction to the airflow as there are no obstructions in the air intake until the usual inlet air filters. The cyclopac technology converts linear air flow to rotary air flow and centrifugal force does the rest with vane scoops around the rim of the unit where air velocity is greatest to catch and remove the dust particles. The amount removed in a 4 hour work cycle is huge as the big diesels require a lot of air - normal practice at that time was to remove and empty the dust storage containers every "crib" break however this is no longer necessary as the units are now self-cleaning.

Dyson vacuum cleaner technology is based on this principle........

https://www.espares.co.uk/advice/careandmaintenance/how-dyson-vacuum-cleaners-work

.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2842
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 09 May, 2019 - 02:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I've had the K&N shown in the above noted link in SRH33576 for years now. Repeated here: K&N Air Filter Replacement on a Rolls-Royce Silver Shadow II

I also have the "double-stack" conventional paper filter setup in LRK37110. Documented long ago in the RR & Bentley Parts, Repair, Restoration & Other Resources Compilation

Brian
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gordon le feuvre
Grand Master
Username: triumph

Post Number: 301
Registered: 7-2012
Posted on Thursday, 09 May, 2019 - 03:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The original “scrubber” filters were cleaned, dipped in engine oil and left to drain off. Where poss. I used to leave them to drain o/nite. Jeff, yes remove duct and then metal cover to gain access, after 100 or so becomes really easy!
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Jeff McCarthy
Grand Master
Username: jefmac2003

Post Number: 619
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Thursday, 09 May, 2019 - 04:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian - yes I've just recently reaquainted myself with your modification. Unfortunately it doesn't have the 'ease of servicing' of the 2 part system.

Gordon - are they efficient? I like the theory behind the oiled filters but I don't know much in practice.

It won't often be near serious dust, just general Australian small-town summer haze.

Were they changed I wonder because the later paper ones were better or just to save labour time in servicing?

Crewe sometimes went backwards for cost and supply reasons - note the latter use of plastic armrest mounts.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 3276
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 09 May, 2019 - 05:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jeff,

The early "F" series Holdens had oil bath mesh filters - my father had a 1954 FJ and while we lived on the coast with relatively clean air, he had no problems. When we moved to Hillston in the Far West of NSW with all dirt roads and fine dust clouds from passing cars that hung in the air long after a car had passed, he was forever changing the oil in the air filter as it quickly turned to sludge at the bottom of the housing. The local Ford dealer was aware of his frustration and when the original XK Falcon was released, he had my father committed to purchasing one the day it was released as the paper element air filter was far easier to clean when necessary.

Talk about trading one problem for another - 18 months later and not long after we had transferred to Gloucester, the local Ford dealer who was aware of the problem arranged a special deal through Ford for trading the car in on a new XL Falcon which eventually became my first car 7 years later. The old car was scrapped immediately as it was beyond reclamation and not a good advertisement for a car Ford was depending on to end GMH's domination of the Australian car market.
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Jeff McCarthy
Grand Master
Username: jefmac2003

Post Number: 621
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Thursday, 09 May, 2019 - 05:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Ah David yes. Fortunately I've moved to Albury and dirt roads are in the past! One of the more alarming theories I've heard is that if you change the filter style it requires retuning the carbs and the exhaust!

I honestly don't actually know which filter I have in the car at present. I'll have a chat with Bob Chapman tomorrow.

I'm in the process of arranging major engine-out remedial & preventative maintenance/upgrades on the engine and suspension at the moment (a modest inheritance) so I'm just trying to get my decision making ducks in a row beforehand.

I love this beast that has taken over my life like some alien force.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2843
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Friday, 10 May, 2019 - 12:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Well, there's a lot of "what you hear" that just doesn't hold up to field testing.

I was told there would be all kinds of adjusting that I'd need to do going from the old Crosland to a K&N because of change in airflow. I changed nothing, and the car's behavior never changed.

If something needs tweaking, you'll know it.

Brian
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Robert J. Sprauer
Grand Master
Username: wraithman

Post Number: 405
Registered: 11-2017
Posted on Friday, 10 May, 2019 - 01:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I agree Brian, I have used different filters including homemade ones and never had to adjust anything.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 2152
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Friday, 10 May, 2019 - 02:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bit late if your top and maybe the rest of compression rings fail with worn piston ring gaps caused by K&N with dirty induction air!

BTW the paper filters are more efficient than the original wire mesh type.
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Robert J. Sprauer
Grand Master
Username: wraithman

Post Number: 407
Registered: 11-2017
Posted on Friday, 10 May, 2019 - 05:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I believe WIX has filters of the same diameter but 1/2 the length so 2 will be needed.
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 1397
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Friday, 10 May, 2019 - 06:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I hate all air filters period except one type and sorry but its German.

Its an oil bath filter used on 1970s model Mercedes Benz. Its serviced by removing the top that has clips, then removing the element, then wiping the muddy muck from the bottom and refilling with fresh oil.

I guess Farsley Motors Brisbane Australia in 1972, the main MB dealer was a bit naughty in not getting me to wash out the reusable element but if you were the owner of a 600 Pullman Grosser to a 190 sedan that's what happened and being an apprentice I did hundreds.

I hate filters, air filters the ones you have to replace at your expense and I really hate them because I am blowing out large filters on big machinery over and over again because my present idiot boss thinks he is gaining loot by continually doing this when in fact he is getting me to blow nice big holes in the paper elements which will eventually cause the engines to wear out much faster. The Swedes are onto this and the elements are clearly marked. Do not blow out-replace only.

I hate my boss because he is a crazy fool. I also hate air filters just as much as I hate Asian cars.

If I didn't have to drive my good cars across one on Australia's nastiest dirt roads I would go for the originals with the Shadow.

The Camargue and the Spirit will one day run with the 1970s Mercedes Benz filters described above.

I think the move from oil bath to paper has all the Hallmarks of a "let's do Coke and sell the fools some replaceable air filters."

No idea whether the MB oil bath filter was less efficient or more efficient than replacible air paper filters but I don't care because I hate all air filters anyway but there is some element of feel good in scraping the oily muck out of the bottom and putting inside the clean fresh oil.

The oil bath MB filter could last three hundred years and definitely cost MB more money to make than the air paper filter and elements. Was that the reason MB changed?

Do the air filters with paper made probably in Pyongyang provide better filtration and less restriction?

Please tell me, because I need to fuel the hate.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 2154
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Friday, 10 May, 2019 - 06:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I don't mind changing engine air filters but hate many of the pollen filter changes......
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Jeff McCarthy
Grand Master
Username: jefmac2003

Post Number: 622
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Friday, 10 May, 2019 - 08:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Ah Vladimir I can sympathise.

I think I'd rather more often clean out a dirty filter and have the satisfaction of putting it back in clean than struggle with the contortions (I'm 5ft tall) of trying to wrestle with the large paper filter even if less often.

I'll leave the final decision to Bob Chapman because he's dealt with so many of these cars in local conditions his field experience will tell. He also knows my engine intimately and could pick up any signs of bad filtration if present at all.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 3277
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, 10 May, 2019 - 08:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Vladimir,

The Merc oil bath filter is the same configuration as the original "F" series Holden filter from your description.

Country auto wreckers should still have a couple on their shelves..........

Two reasons for the change from oil bath to paper element:

1. Easier and cleaner maintenance.
1A. Possibly better filtration of fine dust particles.

2. More ongoing profit during the life of the car from selling replacement filter elements instead of a canny owner recycling their used engine oil for filling the oil bath.

.
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 1399
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Friday, 10 May, 2019 - 09:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

David the MB filters were really big, beautifully made, solid as a Russian Tank and I recall no instance of engine wear due to poor particle filtration. Perhaps air filters of the paper type are the way to go but in a very dusty environment they become contaminated fast and blowing them out does not seem to be the answer especially with 100 psi plus.

One bus company appeared to think they should be sucked out! and with what? Linda Lovelace?

Perhaps a perfect system would be MB oil bath followed by air paper.

Hilariously, one rich farmer who owned a 300 SEL 6.3 thought his air filter was a water filter and drove his almost new car through water too deep (as cockies do) and this went nasty for him as the water emptied the combustion chambers and then bent all the connecting rods!!! Ho ho what fun!
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Jim Walters
Prolific User
Username: jim_walters

Post Number: 237
Registered: 1-2014
Posted on Friday, 10 May, 2019 - 11:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

In 2000 I drove my 38 Packard Super Eight 24,000 miles through some of the roughest territory on earth that left this kind of dust on the engine in just one day. It was equipped with the stock Packard oil bath air filter that worked extremely well. Some days I would drive past several other entrants stopped at the side of the road shaking the dirt out of their paper air filters that were so clogged the engines quit. I only washed out and changed the oil in it four times in that distance and there was never any indication of any dirt getting past it to the intake to the carb. They really do work exceptionally well.



SRH8505 SRC18015 SRE22493 NAC-05370
www.bristolmotors.com

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