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Matt stroud
New User
Username: stroud234

Post Number: 7
Registered: 10-2018
Posted on Saturday, 09 March, 2019 - 05:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi everyone this subject has probably been cover but could some one please clarify where you lift from on 2 post car lift. I have read on tee one topic that you make blocks and lift from inner sil and it says that the cut out in block is for water drain but my water drain holes are in outer sil can someone please confirm where I lift from
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 3168
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 09 March, 2019 - 08:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Matt,

The best I can find is details on a body mounting jig and relevant dimensions for the different body types from TSD2476 - Section 8.

I have extracted these and they are combined in the file attached below:

application/pdfS8 jig
S8 Body Mounting Jig Details.pdf (145.2 k)


You will have to get under your car with the relevant body dimension chart and identify the support locations to position the support blocks.

I would position additional front and rear fixed supports under the car to prevent any longitudal/transverse rocking of the car if you are doing any "brute force and no finesse activities".

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Robert J. Sprauer
Prolific User
Username: wraithman

Post Number: 141
Registered: 11-2017
Posted on Saturday, 09 March, 2019 - 10:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Forget the jig.

There is a chart in the beginning of the workshop manual showing locations for trolley, 2 post and 4 post. I use a Mohawk 2 post. The front spots are the intersection of the sill box and crossmember and the rear is the sillbox including the flange where the tubular arm mounts. This is directly from the manual.

Do not use any wood blocks due to slippage. Your lift arms should have rubber pads and some have teeth for anti-slip. The best lifts will lock the arms just off the floor. Here's my pics.

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Robert J. Sprauer
Prolific User
Username: wraithman

Post Number: 142
Registered: 11-2017
Posted on Saturday, 09 March, 2019 - 10:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Front lift point



rear..

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Robert J. Sprauer
Prolific User
Username: wraithman

Post Number: 143
Registered: 11-2017
Posted on Saturday, 09 March, 2019 - 10:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2772
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Saturday, 09 March, 2019 - 12:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

See Tee-One Topics, Issue 38, toward the end.

Also: http://au.rrforums.net/forum/messages/17001/18231.html

I know that there are photographs I've posted of my car up on jack stands taken from the underside at the rear where you can clearly see the sill blocks. They've been posted here, on the US forums, and on rollsroyceforums.com but I'll be darned if I can locate them on my own disc drive at the moment.

I use pieces of tire tread samples, much like Robert shows, for between the head of a trolley jack and the front or rear jacking points, but still use wooden sill blocks when using a lift, and they are placed on the inner sill. And you definitely want to make those blocks out of hardwood if you're going to use them.

Like you, on my cars the drains are nowhere near to where the sill blocks get placed, so I don't bother doing the cut-out when I make them.

Brian
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 2064
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Saturday, 09 March, 2019 - 04:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I was just looking at ebay and came across this photo of a 71 Silver Shadow on a two post lift. I suspect this is a "how not to do it" lesson - the jacking points they have selected do not look symmetrical.

a
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Matt stroud
New User
Username: stroud234

Post Number: 8
Registered: 10-2018
Posted on Saturday, 09 March, 2019 - 06:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi everybody thanks for your replies Iíll have a look
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Robert J. Sprauer
Prolific User
Username: wraithman

Post Number: 144
Registered: 11-2017
Posted on Saturday, 09 March, 2019 - 10:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

There should be no lift pads under the front subframe. A common error is to place pads at the rear subframe securing bolts and thus crushing the locator plate
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Matt stroud
New User
Username: stroud234

Post Number: 9
Registered: 10-2018
Posted on Saturday, 09 March, 2019 - 10:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Robert not too sure what you mean you havenítOf any pictures of you and where do you put the rear pads because Iíve looked at all the pictures and under my car Iím still not sure where to put the lift
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Matt stroud
New User
Username: stroud234

Post Number: 10
Registered: 10-2018
Posted on Saturday, 09 March, 2019 - 10:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Also by the way everybody Iíve got a Silvershadow 11 which looks a bit different to the other pictures Iíve seen
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Robert J. Sprauer
Prolific User
Username: wraithman

Post Number: 145
Registered: 11-2017
Posted on Saturday, 09 March, 2019 - 10:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The pics I posted show the F&R lift points. The rear is at the end of the tubular stay bar approx under the rear seat area and easily seen and the front is at the beginning of the floor pan. Use a flashlite.
What appears to be different about your car?
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Robert J. Sprauer
Prolific User
Username: wraithman

Post Number: 146
Registered: 11-2017
Posted on Saturday, 09 March, 2019 - 11:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hopefully this will give you a perspective.
application/pdf
RRlift+jack points.PDF (109.0 k)
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Robert J. Sprauer
Prolific User
Username: wraithman

Post Number: 147
Registered: 11-2017
Posted on Saturday, 09 March, 2019 - 11:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

You want number points 3 and 4
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Matt stroud
Experienced User
Username: stroud234

Post Number: 11
Registered: 10-2018
Posted on Saturday, 09 March, 2019 - 11:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

You might think Iím being stupid but at .3 on the driver-side there seems to be a bit of tin which I think is called the rat trap and it doesnít seem very secure to lift your car by sorry to be painful do I take that piece of tin of ?
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Robert J. Sprauer
Prolific User
Username: wraithman

Post Number: 148
Registered: 11-2017
Posted on Saturday, 09 March, 2019 - 11:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Now why would you want to place a lift pad under a piece of tin that protects a maze of piping? Putting a car on a lift entails common sense and above all safety. I hate to be direct. The lift point where you indicate is just to the outside of the tin cover near the sill. It's the tightest lift spot on the car.
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Matt stroud
Experienced User
Username: stroud234

Post Number: 12
Registered: 10-2018
Posted on Saturday, 09 March, 2019 - 11:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Okay no problem I believe Iím blessed with good commonsense but the trouble is when you start reading peoples points of view is you doubt your own
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Robert J. Sprauer
Prolific User
Username: wraithman

Post Number: 149
Registered: 11-2017
Posted on Sunday, 10 March, 2019 - 12:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Lifting any car properly is super important due to obvious safety concerns and collateral damage to car components when lifting in the wrong place.
If you own the lift, you will find putting a tape or painted reference on the shop floor to indicate the "sweet spot" for lifting, ie arm extension, lift spot etc. I usually keep the car in neutral so I can move it.I also use a block of 2x4 so the front tire hits it when I drive in I know when I'm "there"
We're here to help anytime.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2773
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Sunday, 10 March, 2019 - 12:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Points 3 and 4 are on the inner sill not too terribly far behind the front wheel well and ahead of the rear wheel well - around 6 inches.

Hence the reason I use sill blocks (also, if you don't, or don't use the rubber equivalent if the lift "fingers" [the one I use lets you flip up either end of the lift pad for tighter spaces such as this] will definitely dent the sill from the weight of the car itself.

Those are the only points I've ever used when putting the car up on a lift, or bringing it to rest on jack stands. They're easy to find and generally out of the way of whatever it is you're trying to get at beneath the car.

If you look at the last post in this topic:
http://au.rrforums.net/forum/messages/17001/14533.html
You'll see in the first photo the rat trap area (and SRH33576 is an RHD to LHD conversion, hence the unusual piping) with the cover off, and the end of the lift pad in bright yellow just inside the lift point. On this lift I flip up "the short pad finger" and it's what engages the sill block.

I'll probably eventually come upon those photos of SRH33576 on the lift with the "taken from underneath" perspective. I know I've got a bunch of them, somewhere. Maybe on my other computer.

I agree with Robert that it becomes very helpful, no matter how you do it exactly, to learn your "park for the lift" landmarks in the garage you're working in. It saves a lot of having to keep moving the car to get it right and you can just park, swing those arms such that they engage the correct lifting points, and go. I've also found that for multi-day projects it's easier to put the car back on the ground and let most of the body weight settle back in, but not to lower the lift further than it need be lowered to keep the arms engaged with the lift points, just barely. Then there's nothing to do other than to double check that you have everything still snugly in place and ready for you to lift again.

Brian
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2774
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Sunday, 10 March, 2019 - 04:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Found some photos from when I had her up on the lift in 2013 that clearly show "points 3 and 4" being used with sill blocks and with "the short pad finger" flipped up to engage the sill blocks.

pic1

pic2

pic3

pic4

pic5

pic6

pic7

Brian
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Matt stroud
Experienced User
Username: stroud234

Post Number: 13
Registered: 10-2018
Posted on Monday, 11 March, 2019 - 02:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi all just to let you know finally lifted car yesterday afternoon all went well used to cil blocks that I made from the description in tee one topics The only thing that I was struggling with is that they said the cutouts were for the drainholes and in one of the links that someone sent I see that Jean-Christophe jost had the same problem as he had the blocks on the outer cil anyway all sorted now thanks for all your help
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Jean-christophe Jost
Frequent User
Username: jc_jost

Post Number: 60
Registered: 3-2016
Posted on Monday, 11 March, 2019 - 02:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Matt you are right, placing the blocks on the outter sill resulted in a stucked front door.. oops.

Had to move them more inside.

And, thanks to an "elastic" body, all ended fine.
Cheers
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2775
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Monday, 11 March, 2019 - 05:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

And for those of us who have cars where the drain was moved to the outer sill (and I have no idea of exactly when that occurred) making the sill blocks is much easier, and they retain more strength, since the drain cutout is not necessary.

Brian
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Jean-christophe Jost
Frequent User
Username: jc_jost

Post Number: 61
Registered: 3-2016
Posted on Monday, 11 March, 2019 - 06:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian, I didn't know that the drain holes had been moved to the outer sill. For SRH25085 I can tell that the drain holes *must not be used* as a location where to fit sill blocks / axle stands.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2776
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Monday, 11 March, 2019 - 08:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jean-Christophe,

I presume they must have been moved simply because Bill Coburn's sill block "blueprint" includes a cut out explicitly for them. These are not present on the inner sill, which has always been where the sill blocks are placed, on the SY2 cars. I'm sure someone among the regular readership must have a car where this cut-out is required.

The idea of trying to lift on the outer sill sends shivers down my spine.

I learned about the strength of the inner sills from many cycles of lifting the car employing same, and of a 2-post lift by having the misfortune to be under SRH33576 when the Virginia earthquake of 2010 hit. Although I promptly removed myself from under the car as soon as I realized a quake was in progress it's still a memorable experience.

Brian
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Robert J. Sprauer
Prolific User
Username: wraithman

Post Number: 150
Registered: 11-2017
Posted on Monday, 11 March, 2019 - 09:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Definitely on the inside sill.
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Matt stroud
Experienced User
Username: stroud234

Post Number: 14
Registered: 10-2018
Posted on Monday, 11 March, 2019 - 11:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Before I lifted my car on Saturday I took car and block to local garage he said he would lift it from the outer cil where jean showed his I dident I took your advice and all went well tried to send picture but it said I had to shrink photo but didnít know how to
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Robert J. Sprauer
Prolific User
Username: wraithman

Post Number: 151
Registered: 11-2017
Posted on Tuesday, 12 March, 2019 - 12:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

FYI The inside "sill" is a full boxed structural member and part of the structural rigidity of the body pan whereas the outside"sill or rocker panel" is merely a panel, not as strong since it merely provides a continuation of the body to pan architecture. If there is slippage on the outside sill there is definitely more of a chance of damage to the car and risk to self.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2777
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 12 March, 2019 - 02:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Matt,

Just FYI, the largest pixel dimensions for an image this forums software permits is 640x640.

Given that most smartphone cameras take images that are at least 5 times that large on at least one dimension, resizing is generally necessary.

You can do this using any image editing software of your choice, as all have a resize option somewhere, and you must choose the pixels option and make the longest edge of the photo 640 pixels.

There are also scads of online image resizing sites:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=online+picture+resizing

where you just upload the picture you want resized, specify how you want it resized (for here by pixels and with longest dimension 640) and they'll either produce a file for you to download or present the result for you to download.

Also, see this topic:


Resizing Photos for the RROC-A Forum


where I, and a number of others, get into the steps necessary for resizing, including screen shots, with multiple options discussed.

Brian
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Alan Dibley
Prolific User
Username: alsdibley

Post Number: 181
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 12 March, 2019 - 04:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

One for Pedants' Corner (not Pedants' Corner?):

I think they are sills.

Alan D.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2778
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 12 March, 2019 - 05:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Alan,

But why would this be a Pedants' Corner issue? (Serious question).

It seems to me that there's no argument about the term sill, as RR used it, but an attempt to differentiate between the one that's safe for lifting versus the one that would not be (which is, in reality, not at all pedantic).

Brian, who did not originate the distinction, but who sees the value in absolute clarity here and sees it as essential
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 2070
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Tuesday, 12 March, 2019 - 06:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Moderator Intervention - unnecessary inappropriate comment deleted.

yikes good job the rear cross member final drive etc is not removed with this lash up!



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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2779
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 12 March, 2019 - 07:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

One uses the positioning required for the job being done, no matter what the job.

Brian

Moderator input - I have edited Brian's initial response as a consequence of my editing of the previous post to conform with forum standards.

.
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 1310
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Tuesday, 12 March, 2019 - 09:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

For those of you who do not have a 4 or 2 post lifter and need to use a hydraulic floor jack, I can recommend haunting your local bus repair business and obtain a rubber bump stop that fits inside the suspension airbag.

This bump stop fits perfectly onto of the jack lifting plate and when used under your RR/B will not slip and will not damage or even mark where it contacts your underbody.
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Robert J. Sprauer
Prolific User
Username: wraithman

Post Number: 152
Registered: 11-2017
Posted on Tuesday, 12 March, 2019 - 09:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

As you can see in my earlier posts, I used tire tread and cut them to fit over the lift pads which are metal and have teeth> I did not want to mess up the pretty underbelly. BTW truck tire casings found on the side of hiways are excellent!
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 1794
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 13 March, 2019 - 04:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I am upset that I have to write this .
Every time Brian Vogel contributes to this forum - someone will have a go at him . why? Why my friends? This man only offers support and wisdom to help the community .I For one am grateful to Brian for many solutions to my problems . please let us all keep the strong community that we have here by recognising the contributors and minimising ill feeling amongst our small community .
In my country...2019 is the "year of tolerance". Everyone in my country is very aware of the good that tolerance brings to people and society .
Peace to all .
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Jean-christophe Jost
Frequent User
Username: jc_jost

Post Number: 62
Registered: 3-2016
Posted on Wednesday, 13 March, 2019 - 04:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Good words Omar. Just the words I would use if my English was good enough thanks.
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Larry Kavanagh
Grand Master
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 353
Registered: 5-2016
Posted on Wednesday, 13 March, 2019 - 10:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Here, here.
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Benoit Leus
Grand Master
Username: benoitleus

Post Number: 386
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 13 March, 2019 - 04:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Wise words, Omar.
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 2065
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Wednesday, 13 March, 2019 - 04:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I agree Omar.

When I bought my Shadow in 2012 the seller told me the puddle of brake fluid under the car was due to a leak on one of the slave cylinders - an easy fix - lol. I knew he was talking nonsense as I had researched the car and it's hydraulic system. I bought the car as it was at a great price and apart from the hydraulics, was in excellent condition. I was well aware of the serious job I would have in overhauling the accumulators. Brian was instrumental at that time in getting me up the learning curve, sending me a lot of great advice through numerous emails. Thanks again Brian. Also for all the documentation you have written, from bleeding the hydraulic system to repairing the coolant amplifier. You are a gem on this site.
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 1316
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Wednesday, 13 March, 2019 - 05:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Omar is right. Brian is invaluable. Hoping all of us will be a tad more diplomatic in the future.

We are after all custodians and gentlemen.
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 1317
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Wednesday, 13 March, 2019 - 05:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

This is a very important topic.

Somewhere on the net is a lovely photo of a late model Bentley laying on its side between a two or four post lift.

Yes Sir, your Bentley has been serviced but unfortunately .....
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 3173
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 13 March, 2019 - 07:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Not a Bentley but a Rolls-Royce also suffered the same fate in China:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainment/topnews/rolls-royce-falls-off-car-lift-during-repair-work/vi-BBrkbAC

and another in China unfortunately with fatal consequences:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYDaCR5lRLw

Looks like a 2 post hoist was involved in both incidents.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 2071
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Wednesday, 13 March, 2019 - 09:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Now you have hit the nail on the head.
Safety is the operative word.
Peddling dangerous procedures [wood blocks etc] and it only takes one friends fatality or a wrecked vehicle.

Two post hoists are not the choice for RR and Bentley motorcars, totally no good for many major jobs.

99% vehicle accidents are with two post lifts the one 1% with 4 post type is down to incorrect use of the lift.
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Jeff Young
Grand Master
Username: jeyjey

Post Number: 396
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Wednesday, 13 March, 2019 - 09:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I must admit I've never gotten on with the idea of a 2-post lift (although I presumed the post anchoring would be the weak-point, not the balance of the load.) That second video is horrifying.

I do use wood blocks with my floor jack, though, and I have a tendency to react poorly to some safety advice (primarily when I read it as being alarmist or nannying).
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Robert J. Sprauer
Prolific User
Username: wraithman

Post Number: 155
Registered: 11-2017
Posted on Wednesday, 13 March, 2019 - 10:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Lift disasters can occur from one of the following:
! Poor quality non-certified lifts, generally from China that use cables and hoses along with plastic channel blocks and formed plate steel for the columns rather than "fork lift" channel.
2 Operator error, ie lack of knowledge regarding pad placement.
3. Load is too heavy for the lift.
4. All lifts generally have to be inspected yearly in commercial facilities.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 2072
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Wednesday, 13 March, 2019 - 11:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Yes two post lifts cause the disasters with more not listed.
Many folk who own these RR etc type of cars read the forums and may well need to know the risks with the use of two post lifts.
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Robert J. Sprauer
Prolific User
Username: wraithman

Post Number: 156
Registered: 11-2017
Posted on Wednesday, 13 March, 2019 - 11:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Any lift is a risk. There are more 2 posts in use than any other type.
When they are sized correctly for the vehicle, well engineered and operated properly there is very little risk.
I would say there is more risk with cheap jack stands placed in the wrong areas or flimsy drive on ramps than the risk on a 2 post lift
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 2073
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Thursday, 14 March, 2019 - 12:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

More two post lifts in use!

Not with the RR etc type of cars, confirmed when used by the RR type car accidents shown on the Net.

Beware!
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Robert J. Sprauer
Prolific User
Username: wraithman

Post Number: 157
Registered: 11-2017
Posted on Thursday, 14 March, 2019 - 12:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Again Patrick We do not know the cause of those accidents and to broadly paint that 2 post lifts and RR are a problem you are definitely misinformed.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 2074
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Thursday, 14 March, 2019 - 12:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Better to be on the safe side as the following could not happen with a 4 post platform lift!
https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=9SfSY_1548360213
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2782
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 14 March, 2019 - 01:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Paranoia about perfectly safe equipment does nothing to advance the cause of safety.

The 2-post Rotary Lift I've used for years that's in a friend's garage is designed to lift vehicles far larger and heavier than either SRH33576 or LRK37710 are, and is indeed used to do that on a far more common basis.

Safety comes from using the appropriate tools in a manner for which they were designed, and within the weight and size limits for which they were designed when it comes to lifts.

Anyone can be stupid when it comes to anything. That doesn't mean that those that aren't being stupid incur any more risk in choosing an appropriate 2-post lift over a 4-post one while knowing exactly how each should be used to lift the vehicle in question.

I've seen an excess of caution, often coupled with inadequate research for the task at hand, cause just as many problems as being cavalier does. Both extremes decrease safety because both allow either fear or complete lack of regard to rule rather than actual preparedness and necessary caution.

Tool to task, technique to tool, and safety always a primary consideration. And the last of these requires having done your homework, and having reviewed same several times, before even starting the first time.

Brian
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Robert J. Sprauer
Prolific User
Username: wraithman

Post Number: 158
Registered: 11-2017
Posted on Thursday, 14 March, 2019 - 01:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Well said Brian
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2784
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 14 March, 2019 - 02:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

David,

Both cases are particularly striking as each appears to have happened in a facility that services these cars routinely, if the other vehicles in the videos are any indication.

Someone made a very stupid/careless mistake just looking at the way the cars toppled. From all appearances only three of the four points that should have been supporting the car were in actuality supporting the car.

I'll bet that mechanic in the first lost his job, at a minimum, over that "little mistake." The second is just tragic and can serve as a sad but essential cautionary warning.

Brian
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Robert J. Sprauer
Prolific User
Username: wraithman

Post Number: 159
Registered: 11-2017
Posted on Thursday, 14 March, 2019 - 02:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

It also appears the lift arms and columns are intact adding more to operator error or lack of experience. When in doubt with a new model, the operator should have raised it 2 ft, pushed it side to side, front to back and he might be alive today. Sad outcome.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 2075
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Thursday, 14 March, 2019 - 03:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Raise the car 2ft with a two post and push it from side to side, front to back with wooden blocks etc supporting the car with two post arms, a certain big big mistake.

22 galls of fuel possibly sloshing about the tank!
And a difference of centre of gravity from full to a nearly empty tank in the cars if trying to position on a feeble two post.

Way better to use the four post platform hoist, lift.

Many more and to many to list of two post failures home workshop and garage dealerships world wide.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2785
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 14 March, 2019 - 03:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Patrick,

You are, plain and simply, wrong. It is standard practice to check the stability of any vehicle on a lift by putting it up a short distance and trying to topple it. It's a great safety check.

Your opinion is based on absolutely nothing factual here. I have been lifting RRs on a 2-post lift for a decade now, using hardwood sill blocks, and doing a stability check by pushing as a routine check before going way up.

As I noted earlier, on another topic, I was under my car on said lift when the Virginia Earthquake of 2011 struck. The car did not fall, the lift did not collapse, and I vacated that specific spot as soon as I recognized what was occurring. This same lift remains in perfect service to this day.

Your opinions have no basis in fact. If they did then two-post lifts would have disappeared from the face of the earth and all service facilities long ago. As has already been pointed out, they are, by far, the most common type in service facilities worldwide. That alone should tell you something about their safety when used correctly. But clearly, the facts are not going to get in the way of your ill-informed opinion.

Brian, who learned a lot about how weight actually stabilizes shaky things from years of loading a kiln, as well as working with lifts
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Robert J. Sprauer
Prolific User
Username: wraithman

Post Number: 160
Registered: 11-2017
Posted on Thursday, 14 March, 2019 - 04:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

If you can slosh 22 gallons of gas you belong in the movies. Not going to happen. Lifts are anchored with wedge anchors that are at least 5" deep. In my case a Mohawk lift has base plates of 20 x 30" amd anchored by 13 3/4"x5" anchor bolts per column. Each bolt
takes 4978 lbs to pull out and 9378 lbs to shear.
Also lift arms will lock 12" off the floor and not swing.
Educate yourself! Your ignorance is obvious and embarassing.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 2076
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Thursday, 14 March, 2019 - 04:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Wooden blocks supporting the car on the feeble two post lift arms is just one of the dangers whether locked or not.
Nothing to do with the column base fixing although that can be another story you may wish to learn!
Believe me the fuels sloshing weight on a cars momentum when pushed on the feeble two post setup
spells danger for any RR type of car and more.

Four post platform hoist is confirmed best for the RR type of cars.
Safety First.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2786
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 14 March, 2019 - 05:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Before I depart this thread, as all that needs to be said about the facts of the matter has already been, I offer the following:

It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.
~ Jonathan Swift
(1667 - 1745), Irish essayist, novelist, & satirist

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.
~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

Well when events change, I change my mind. What do you do?
~ Paul Samuelson
, winner of the 1970 Nobel Prize in Economics
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 1318
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Thursday, 14 March, 2019 - 06:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Now now chaps you are getting all fired up at each other and there is no future in squabbling.

I have used two posters and four posters and even the totally horrid one poster hydraulic lifts and I am not talking about once in a while as a hobby but as a mechanic under the pump 12 hours a day 6 days a week.I have also years of using four post mobile posts to lift 12 tons of bus up which can be very very scary.

Mechanic generally hate 4 posters because they restrict access to the car far more than 2 posters.

However, this thread has convinced me to take far more care in the future especially with two posters.

Something about watching Rolls Royce kill a Chinese mechanic perhaps.

The first time I attempted to put the Camargue on stands my mechanic's intuition kicked in and I sensed danger because the underneath of a Rolls Royce is really not like any other car. So I hit the forum, made a suggestion of where the stands should go and then Bill Coburn agreed with my plan. I have to be very careful because if a falling car does not kill me instantly then just getting pinned under a car and partially injured means dying a lovely painful slow death as my neighbours are too far away to hear my screams.

Although I hate four posters this thread has convinced me to get one if I ever get one instead of the two poster.

Now that is just my preference. Perhaps, I am paranoid, but just because I am paranoid does not mean a RR and gravity is not waiting to croak me.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 2078
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Thursday, 14 March, 2019 - 06:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Well said Vladimir, and now for the comments of our most respected moderator David.

That is if he wants to pass his views.

Patrick - part of your comment was inappropriate and I have deleted it accordingly.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 3174
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 14 March, 2019 - 08:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jaguar used to paraphrase the well-known personal motto "Safety First" with their promotional motto "Safety Fast".

I have read the diversity of personal opinions above and my assessment is simple "you pay your money and you take your chances" cognisant of the advice given by a sticker I saw on the change room mirror at a Wollongong NSW coal mine "The person you see is responsible for your safety".

This coupled with the gruesome industrial safety film shown on my first day at work after leaving school has dictated my life for 55 years. I will admit to a few "near misses" from overlooking this basic rule perhaps as a result of the traditional saying "only the good die young"!!

I expect I will have a long life........

.
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Steve Emmott
Frequent User
Username: steve_e

Post Number: 100
Registered: 11-2018
Posted on Thursday, 14 March, 2019 - 04:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

David G I think the phrase was from MG, it was not something I heard in my years with Jaguar but is used on the MG sites a lot as their sign offs......... Jaguar's phrase was always Grace Space and Pace albeit the big contention was there was never enough space to put a set of golf clubs in the boot back then. Sadly I think now they might have corrected the 'space' issue and for me totally lost the 'grace' from their saloon cars.

I had to totally refit our Whitley engineering workshops with 2 posters when production methods on the X300 changed from 'engine drop' to the combined chassis engine stuff up referred to in the industry now as 'marriage'. Amazing when you look back this body onto combined running chassis is how it always used to be done before initial intro of monocoque chassis design changes.

Many of these modern cars now produced it is just not possible to lift the engine from the top and it has to be dropped so much simpler with the correct service bed and 2 post lifts.

We used SLIFT 2 poster ramps that had all the workings underground as a cassette so no posts visible on the surface.

When we started digging out we found underneath the workshop a catacomb of brick tunnels dating back to world war times. Ended up a huge costly backfill job.

It reminded me when my late father-in-law who held a senior position at British Leyland and took me round the old SU pump factory after they sold off the company. We found old SU pumps and parts hidden in lots of secret places assumingly waiting one day to be taken home.

They sure did eventually and now all sit in my garage stock.

Never had an accident with a lift in my career but did once fit an Everflex roof for a garage who had closed up for the night and stored the car underneath another car they had put on a ramp and lifted in the air.

Overnight there had been a slight hydraulic pressure leak and in the morning the top car was sitting on the roof of the car underneath.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 3179
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 14 March, 2019 - 05:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Steve,

Your comment about the "stock pile" of parts destined for places unknown discovery reminds me of a similar situation in the underground coal mining industry best described by the miner's own words:

"Give me 3 steel balls and the following will happen; I will break one, lose another and the third will go home in my crib [lunch] box"!!!

P.S. If my memory is correct, one or more of the pre-WW2 Jaguar factories were used to assemble aircraft during WW2 and were Luftwaffe priority targets as a consequence.

.
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Steve Emmott
Prolific User
Username: steve_e

Post Number: 102
Registered: 11-2018
Posted on Thursday, 14 March, 2019 - 06:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

David,

The Whitley engineering site at Coventry I believe was the production site of the Jaguar airplane engine for the aircraft during the war. Hence Coventry indeed saw heavy bombing.

William Lyons moved to the Coventry site and indeed I believe was allowed to take the name Jaguar for the cars.

Originally from the North he produced side cars for motor bikes and took the logo SS which stood for Swallow Sidecars and this was used as the badge on his early cars. As the war came the car badge logo SS was not seen very suitable and so the name Jaguar was adopted.

Of course there is the famous story which I believe captured in a Johnny Cash song 'one piece at a time' where a guy built a complete e-Type at home in his garage. The mind boggles on how he got the body shell in his pocket
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 2079
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Thursday, 14 March, 2019 - 08:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

"Safety first" for saving life in a accident I had always thought was Volvo, the seat belt in 1959 was a later but much remembered feature.
The PV444 in 1944 was a safety car!

My recall of Jaguar "safety first" was the introduction of Dunlop all wheel disc brakes in 1953, seem to think the early motors wore a red triangle on the boot.
This was hoped to stop the accident in the first place.

British Racing Motors were racing with disc brakes in 1951.
The disc brake set up was patented years before by some other manufacture.

Thought I would replace the shorter range Leaf and go for the Jaguar I-Pace but test drive revealed a to harsh to firm ride, maybe I have been spoilt with the ride of the C6 that is now nearly 10 years old.
All in all I-Pace seems a good vehicle, time will tell.

BTW golf clubs try a MK10 boot!
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Steve Emmott
Prolific User
Username: steve_e

Post Number: 103
Registered: 11-2018
Posted on Thursday, 14 March, 2019 - 08:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Patrick I think it is a combined statement really being referred to as 'safety first'-'safety fast' the latter words really the point I was making.

It is even the publication title MG give to their monthly magazine.

That's not to say where the saying originated from as of course at one time Jaguar and MG were part of British Leyland but to me the saying has certainly been adopted as an MG traditional known use.

Others of course are Audi....Vorsprung durch technik...Aston Martin....Torque of the Road...Jaguar...Grace, space and pace.



Yes the old Jaguar MK10 now that was probably the only one you could get the clubs and a motorised caddy in but prior to the days of the logo where pace was appropriate it was a huge beast but beautiful.
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Steve Emmott
Prolific User
Username: steve_e

Post Number: 104
Registered: 11-2018
Posted on Thursday, 14 March, 2019 - 09:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Also found this old 1948 PATHE video on MG racing/car construction where they clearly use 'safety fast' so predates any association with British Leyland.

So I do think 'safety fast' has its origins to MG

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KBKgw5Cvz8
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Robert J. Sprauer
Prolific User
Username: wraithman

Post Number: 162
Registered: 11-2017
Posted on Thursday, 14 March, 2019 - 09:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Steve..The case where the car lowered overnite tells me one thing. There were no locking stops on that lift design. Most lifts lock every 3 inches upward and have to be manually released before going down. Obviously a big safety item.
I miss my Jag MK2 3.8 great car
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Jeff Young
Grand Master
Username: jeyjey

Post Number: 397
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Thursday, 14 March, 2019 - 10:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Yeah, with my 4-post you raise it up listening to the "klack" each 3 inches, and after you're a bit higher than you need it you lower it back down onto the last set. For lowering there's an air-line to release all the latches (but you have to raise it slightly first to release the friction on the last set).

I've never used a 2-post, though.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 2084
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Friday, 15 March, 2019 - 05:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Yes that's the same my scissor lift used for certain applications.
mechanical locks released by air.
Many two post non hydraulic types can have safety nuts but still failures can happen.

My platform four post hoist when it stops is stopped in place by gearing and torque pressure loaded or otherwise.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 2090
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Sunday, 17 March, 2019 - 06:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

A failing with some two post non hydraulic types of which a result of damage to the cars door etc can be down to a simple failing of the micro switch not kicking in and stop the drive on one tower when the drive chain fails, through what ever fault.
The car then tips and damage occurs.
This can happen on hoists that have been tested ok quite recently.
Pix of the type of offending switch.




Hydraulic type have there failings too!
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Robert J. Sprauer
Prolific User
Username: wraithman

Post Number: 171
Registered: 11-2017
Posted on Sunday, 17 March, 2019 - 06:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

My old Hoffman lift from Germany was a 2 post column (corkscrew)chain connected lift with safety switches and the like. I got rid of it and spent over $8k on the Mohawk. The best is expensive but then again so is life.
The Mohawk is trouble free and warranteed for 25 yrs.
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Larry Kavanagh
Grand Master
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 356
Registered: 5-2016
Posted on Sunday, 17 March, 2019 - 07:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

While the above video of an unfortunate mechanic losing his life has a certain value in warning others to take care I think it is undignified and insensitive to display a video of such a tragic incident. I doubt that the deceased man's relatives or friends would approve.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 2093
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Sunday, 17 March, 2019 - 09:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Larry, my posting was after the moderators first insertion to show the unsavoury details of two post dangers.
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 1324
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Sunday, 17 March, 2019 - 09:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Larry has a point there David. Perhaps that video should be deleted.

However, if you get a video of me getting croaked by a Rolls Royce falling on top of me you have my permission to post it permanently.

But here is a tip which may have saved the Chinese mechanic's life but probably not his job - when the car is moving don't try to save it! Flee like a scalded cat away from underneath the car.

And I have dodged more than one falling car, truck and bus to tell you this tale.}
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Larry Kavanagh
Grand Master
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 358
Registered: 5-2016
Posted on Sunday, 17 March, 2019 - 11:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

You're correct Patrick, the video is posted twice. I'm just a little concerned about the possible repercussions from posting a video of such a dreadful demise of an unfortunate mechanic. I know the video didn't originate on this site but it just seems insensitive to me, I'm thinking of the deceased's next-of-kin but perhaps they have granted permission for the posting of the material, I don't know the legalities. I'm aware, however of a recent fatal road traffic accident in Ireland where the police have threatened to prosecute anyone who captured or posted images.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 3186
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 17 March, 2019 - 06:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Larry,

How many times do you see people "killed" on TV and/or in movies often in graphic and gory detail which leaves nothing to the imagination?

In my opinion, the impact of the message in the video is reinforced by the fact that it shows a real situation and not a contrived recreation. I have never forgotten the message in the first industrial safety film I saw which included real life accidents which made me absolutely aware of the consequences of ignoring or by-passing safe working practices before and basic first aid principles and personal safety after an accident.

You cannot "sugar coat" what happens in real life and if you have ever been in a situation where hysterical and/or uninformed witnesses and/or bystanders have been present, you will understand the importance of remaining cool, calm and rational to make the right decisions and reassure those involved that they will be looked after commensurate with the circumstances by words and deeds.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2791
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Monday, 18 March, 2019 - 02:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

While I agree with Larry that the video is "insensitive" if the family did not consent to it, whether they did or not it's publicly viewable now and probably will be forever unless someone who has the legal right to do so were to ask for a take-down. I have little doubt that even if the family did not have that legal right, unless the entity hosting it was run by monsters they'd take it down were survivors to request same.

The family may not even know about it, and though I would never want to cause anyone emotional pain, particularly intentionally in a case like this, we can and do know nothing about any of the broader circumstances. Calling for removal based on pure speculation is unjustified, in my opinion.

I see no value at all in taking that video down from here as it serves a very, very useful purpose, as David Gore has emphatically stated.

If it ever gets pulled from its source it will automatically be pulled here, as the content is not duplicated but links to same are offered.

Brian
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Larry Kavanagh
Grand Master
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 359
Registered: 5-2016
Posted on Monday, 18 March, 2019 - 11:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I agree to a major extent with David and Brian. I haven't called for the removal of the video and I've already stated that I see the value from a workplace safety perspective. I've merely indicated that I would have reservations about posting videos of that nature, I just wouldn't like to accidentally happen on it if the victim was someone I knew personally.

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