| Author | Message | ||
     Rod Spargo Yet to post message Username: rodds23 Post Number: 1 Registered: 2-2019 |
My 1979 Shadow II grille needs some welding done to it as the top section of the outer seam has come apart. Can anyone recommend anyone who does stainless steel welding or a repairer of Rolls Royce grilles in Australia? Many thanks. | ||
| Robert J. Sprauer Prolific User Username: wraithman Post Number: 131 Registered: 11-2017 |
The grill metal is high nickel content stainless steel. It is gas welded at the seams. You would be best advised to send to a specialist. It will also have to be buffed when finished due to heat mapping. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 3148 Registered: 4-2003 |
Rod, The grille is not welded to the best of my knowledge and was hand-soldered by some of the best craftsmen in the UK. The main problem is buckling/distortion of the stainless steel as a consequence of its poor thermal conductivity and hand soldering is the most effective procedure to minimise this problem. The video on the following link shows this in some detail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiXSlWfcaHg  . | ||
| David Hughes Frequent User Username: wedcar Post Number: 88 Registered: 7-2004 |
David Thank you for your post, great skills at work there. With your knowledge of chemistry/metalurgy I understand the "flux" to be used with 316 stainless steel is phosphoric acid, is this correct? Regards David | ||
| Steve Emmott Frequent User Username: steve_e Post Number: 89 Registered: 11-2018 |
David H....I await David G's response with anticipation........ I use phosphoric acid as a tile cleaner on my swimming pool tiles and where any rust staining has occurred on brickwork or tiles... Obviously rubber gloves and all that and plenty of washing down afterwards with fresh water but it brings the tiles up like new. Given they have to be anti-slip tiles in the pool area they are fairly rough on the surface so dirt does tend to grout into them. Also we have a DIY automotive panel rust treatment solution called Jenolite... ..predominantly this again is phosphoric acid but a weaker solution for the public. I use this for pre treatment of metal on surface rust prior to painting and also on brass/copper connections when they have oxidised badly. I am trying to recall my university training days on properties of metal and forming as IIRC we used phosphoric acid to etch the metal surface prior to viewing the surface under a microscope. So I could understand phosphoric acid used as a solution for etching/cleaning a surface to assist surface adhesion as required when two metals are soldered as opposed to welding which is the melting of the metals to make the joint but would assume the flux part must be another additive to assist in the solder flowing. Over to you David G as not my better subject of knowledge. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 3157 Registered: 4-2003 |
David & Steve, I am away from home at the moment and do not have access to my reference library - haven't had anything to do with soft soldering stainless steel for many years [over 50 yrs to be precise]. I will have access when I am back in Sydney next week. I think I may still have my International Nickel stainless steel fabrication technical guides which contained most of the necessary information. In the meantime, I suggest you keep an eye out for scrap stainless steel sinks, laundry tubs and/or commercial kitchen bench tops you can cut up for samples to hone your soldering skills. These will be mainly type 302/type 304 which have less corrosion resistance than type 316 and accordingly can be soldered with less aggressive fluxes. You can test possible items with a magnet to eliminate the lesser ferritic grades [400 series] of stainless steel. A magnet will stick to the ferritic grades but slide off the austenitic grades - some pull can be felt from cold worked 300 series material but usually not enough for the magnet to cling under its own weight - experience is important to determine whether the unknown material is austenitic or ferritic. Phosphoric acid does come to mind but I recall other "witches brews" were often used for special items. The secret of the RRMC soldering was the very large iron with huge heat capacity so the joint could be made and then "wiped" to remove any excess solder with one heat of the iron. I will not disclose some of the ingredients publically as they are extremely aggressive and dangerous chemicals requiring suitable protective items, handling procedures and availability of neutralising agents should a spill or skin contact occur. You must keep in mind the fact that more aggressive fluxes give better joint adhesion but are more prone to "frost" polished "mirror finish" stainless steel. Buffing out this frosting is difficult and requires much experience to do it without "rippling" the surface from localised overheating due to the poor thermal conductivity of the austenitic stainless steels [normally described as the 300 series]. Forgot to add there is no substitute for practice, practice and more practice until you have made and corrected enough mistakes to have confidence in your ability to consistently make good soldered joints with minimal distortion and frosting. . | ||
| ross kowalski Grand Master Username: cdfpw Post Number: 923 Registered: 11-2015 |
Rod, can you post a picture of the damage? You do need to remove the oxide layer on the surface of the stainless steel to get soldering to work. I remember that the flux was all kinds of serious and Required ventilation and VOC filters on the health and safety gear. With the exception of the flux, it's the same as soldering any like sized non stainless item. For anyone whose soldered anything big and decorative the grille repair should be kind of straight forward. David it completely correct on the buffing. To do it right you need a large diameter and fairly wide buff moving fast. If you are not too familiar with the techniques involved there you might want to leave that to a professional. The fellows who work at re-chroming businesses should be able to help you there. Good Lcuk. | ||
| Alan Dibley Prolific User Username: alsdibley Post Number: 182 Registered: 10-2009 |
"In the old days" the easily available soft solder was an alloy of lead and tin. It is now an alloy of silver and tin. Discuss in relation to the effect on stainless steel joints. Alan D. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 3182 Registered: 4-2003 |
Alan, I wasn't aware of this change, will investigate and advise. My initial reaction is that it will not affect the type of soldering flux required but there could be consequences with the amount of heat required to make a joint - more heat, the greater the possibility of distortion/rippling; less heat would mean less distortion/rippling. A classic case of "what you lose on the swings, you make up on the roundabouts". P.S. I haven't found my Inco stainless steel fabricating technical guides yet and I am beginning to think I may have passed them on to my replacement at work when I moved to management from technical service. . | ||
| Steve Emmott Prolific User Username: steve_e Post Number: 105 Registered: 11-2018 |
Leaded solder is still available albeit in the EU and most of RoW it has been banned for commercial use. It is not only the danger of anyone using it but also the danger to the recycling of products like electrical components. It does still get used in limited situations for one off prototypes but at all times supposedly should carrier a warning sign. The advantage of lead solders are they melt and flow at a much lower temperatures but when used the gasses given off are known to be dangerous. Reasonable precautions taken where it is only being used occasionally should though be taken. Indium is now available as a low temp melt solder replacing the need of lead but I have no idea of its adhesion properties and use on stainless steel. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2083 Registered: 9-2004 |
Likewise with old wheel balance weights of which I have plenty, used lead now used to dangle in the fuel tanks on the classic cars to boost the octane and so far stop valve recession in cast ion heads. | ||
| Alan Dibley Prolific User Username: alsdibley Post Number: 183 Registered: 10-2009 |
QUOTE:- "Likewise with old wheel balance weights of which I have plenty, used lead now used to dangle in the fuel tanks on the classic cars to boost the octane and so far stop valve recession in cast ion heads." Does that work???!!! Alan D. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 3183 Registered: 4-2003 |
The lead compound used in petrol/gasoline was tetraethyllead and not metallic lead to the best of my knowledge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraethyllead . | ||
| Steve Emmott Prolific User Username: steve_e Post Number: 106 Registered: 11-2018 |
Yeah I always saw the lead balls being sold in a wire netting to drop in the fuel tank as another 'snake oil' product coming out just as TEL (short name for the additive) was being slowly removed from gasoline and raising issues on valve seat wear. I do believe though moth balls were a viable genuine additive as of the chemical content. Sadly I could never catch enough moths and from my biology days could not identify males or females so had no idea where their balls were.  | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2085 Registered: 9-2004 |
I see this link to some sort of snake product, cripes, I will stick with the old type balance weights. BTW have not had any valve recession so far in mine or other classics with U/Leaded. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Spitfire-Fuel-Catalyst-8-Pellets/dp/B00J227QKO# | ||
| Mark Aldridge Grand Master Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 600 Registered: 10-2008 |
Patrick we have run a tuned Morris 1100 and a tuned Morris Minor (1100) for over 50k miles on original valves and no valve seat modifications , with no fuel additives at all, on mostly 95 fuel and driven enthusiastically including recently 1200 miles of motorway driving in 2days.On the speed limits ie much of it at 70mph steady.. We have had no closing of valve clearances and there was no seat damage when we last changed a head gasket due to an oil leak (Rocker shaft supply). Mark | ||
| Steve Emmott Prolific User Username: steve_e Post Number: 107 Registered: 11-2018 |
Patrick, Do you mean that you have had no problem with valve recession with using unleaded fuel but have been putting balance weights in your tank. Obviously despite leaded fuel meaning engine manufacturers had little need for hard valve seat inserts many engines produced still actually did have them........... The MGB did not originally like many other UK cars of the period fit hardened inserts but when my MGB was built in 2001 an Ivor Searle remanufactured engine was fitted with valve inserts for unleaded fuel. My 72 Shadow was retimed (slightly retarded) for unleaded fuel around mid 80's but no valve seat work has ever been done and 60k miles added since with no additives either. I had always assumed the RR engine and indeed my Ferrari did not need any valve seat head work for unleaded fuel.........I hope this a correct assumption? With my Lotus Esprit Turbo now passed the 60k miles I am expecting soon this engine will end up terminal due to the nicosil wear, but I am just hoping all cars will last out another 10 years albeit the RR is starting to become the only one now we can both easily get in and out off. BTW I still have a box of lead strips from the days I used to 'lead load' panel joints and rusted areas. Probably be ideal for repairing a RR grille. I can't even pick the box up now it is that heavy. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2086 Registered: 9-2004 |
Mark, we too have done long trips to France etc and have had no trouble running U/leaded in my classics without inserts. Just reminded me I must run the Rolls on petrol oil mix on start up to lube the valve guides, due to running LPG. Steve, The lead weights was tongue in cheek! Have had more trouble from owners who have had the car converted and then suffering loose inserts. Once we repaired them never had one fail yet. Had a company director years ago who had a Sunbeam Lotus, looked after it for years, what an engine when on song! Did not know that the liners were nikasil on the later Lotus engine. Learn something of interest all the time. BTW, have more probs with the fuel systems now with cars not used on a regular basis running U/leaded. | ||
| Steve Emmott Prolific User Username: steve_e Post Number: 108 Registered: 11-2018 |
Patrick you have to ship me some of your Somerset scrumpy cider. It obviously had been a good vintage year with the hot summer we had. I've now got to go and put all the lead balance weights back on the neighbours car.  BTW... moth balls (ie what you put in cupboards for clothes) was actually a genuine comment. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2087 Registered: 9-2004 |
Steve, I have just come in, catching the moths but they have all been females, ah just seen the cupboard moth balls are the ones alas we have none there. The only related thing to moths is when I open my wallet.  | ||
| Mark Aldridge Grand Master Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 601 Registered: 10-2008 |
Genuine TEL is available in the form of Tetraboost, which I have used with great success where 100 octane fuel is required. Bit costly though. Mark | ||
| Rod Spargo New User Username: rodds23 Post Number: 2 Registered: 2-2019 |
Many thanks for your replies and discussions, I am getting it sorted. |
