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P. Eng. Pierre Linh Raoul
New User
Username: thrasher

Post Number: 10
Registered: 5-2018
Posted on Sunday, 25 November, 2018 - 12:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Just got back from a quick and fast trip to Paris - 21mpg on the highway at speeds between 90-95mph

Now now at 80mph itís quiet however above it gets loud: should I fit the secondary seals I got from Flyingspares?
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 1249
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Sunday, 25 November, 2018 - 03:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Yes
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 2095
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, 25 November, 2018 - 04:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Assess your gaps before you order them. They need to be wide enough all the way around for the seals to stay put.

Good when the fit well though .
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P. Eng. Pierre Linh Raoul
Experienced User
Username: thrasher

Post Number: 11
Registered: 5-2018
Posted on Sunday, 25 November, 2018 - 04:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Am questioning it as the shop who did all the works on it (Royce Engineering) did not want to put them on as itís not as intended originally they said...and these guys are all ex Royce employees

Or I need to drive with a lighter foot
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Mark Aldridge
Grand Master
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 584
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Sunday, 25 November, 2018 - 04:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I have them on my Shadow and my Bentley8. They are brilliant.
Mark
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Larry Kavanagh
Prolific User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 270
Registered: 5-2016
Posted on Sunday, 25 November, 2018 - 07:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Do these seals stick on top of the original seals or where?
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 2097
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, 25 November, 2018 - 08:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

On the stainless frame.

Clean it really well.
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Larry Kavanagh
Prolific User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 271
Registered: 5-2016
Posted on Sunday, 25 November, 2018 - 08:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks Paul.
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P. Eng. Pierre Linh Raoul
Experienced User
Username: thrasher

Post Number: 12
Registered: 5-2018
Posted on Monday, 26 November, 2018 - 03:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Well bad news: I tried fitting the secondary seals: they look nice and all and I can see how they would actually work: however the door gap is way too small and once fitted I cannot close the door, slamming to close itís then impossible to re-open.

My door gaps are even and tight all around and all 4 doors, no way to fit

So a no-go on my T2 - I see why Royce did not want to fit them now.
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P. Eng. Pierre Linh Raoul
Experienced User
Username: thrasher

Post Number: 13
Registered: 5-2018
Posted on Monday, 26 November, 2018 - 03:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I need another solution, of secondary seal: the same in thinner
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Larry Kavanagh
Prolific User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 272
Registered: 5-2016
Posted on Monday, 26 November, 2018 - 09:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

According to the fitting instructions on Introcar Ltd website a 4mm minimum gap is required all around the door and window jam otherwise the seals will come away on door closing or opening. I think you will need to find a way to measure the existing gap all the way around and then search for a suitable seal unless there's a way to adjust the gap to suit these secondary seals. Maybe Woolies Trim and Upholstery would have a suitable sealing product. I'm in the same predicament as you, the wind noise at the driver's door is annoying to me although passengers say that they don't notice it.
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P. Eng. Pierre Linh Raoul
Experienced User
Username: thrasher

Post Number: 14
Registered: 5-2018
Posted on Monday, 26 November, 2018 - 09:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Iíve ordered new primary seals as a precaution - will get them fitted next week and letís see....maybe more bearable at 90-95mph

Or Iíll have to drop down to 70mph...shame as French highways are super smooth and over a 300miles trip the extra 20mph do make a difference
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 1254
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Monday, 26 November, 2018 - 10:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

There is an alternative. Install very good stereo system with large amplifier and subwoofer and crank ACDC or Rumjacks to just under maximum and that way the wind noise will not get to you.

Your do should close elegantly with no need to slam it at all.

Apart from using a purchased secondary seal you need to take your time and meticulously diagnosis the problem with the seals you fitted.

If you have to slam the door or if after the door is slammed it is difficult to open then you are over stressing your door locks.
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Christian S. Hansen
Grand Master
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 981
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Monday, 26 November, 2018 - 11:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

This has provoked my curiosity. 90 to 95 mph (not kph)?? Seems a bit fast. Are those the speed limits in France, or are you indulging yourself unlawfully??? I gotta wonder!

.
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 1255
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Monday, 26 November, 2018 - 12:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Opps, perhaps Thrasher should have googled the UK site by Safe travel on French speed limits.

Nasty stuff including big on the spot fines, confiscation of car and getting put on their National Register.

Methinks thrasher should go the autobahn to retest the door seals but should check this T2 has not been listed on that Register before re-entry of France.

Errk indeedy!
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 2099
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, 26 November, 2018 - 05:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Shadow door gaps are much tighter and often less even than SZ gaps.

Even on SZ cars they can be clingy to the body. We apply a dry silicone lubricant to the rubber and body to keep them free.

New door seals usually help.

I assume you fitted the secondary seals fat side away from the body.

95 mph is ok of you are in a mad rush but it really pushes up the fuel consumption. A bit like pushing a brick through water at that speed. ;(
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Christian S. Hansen
Grand Master
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 982
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Monday, 26 November, 2018 - 06:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Paul...
One curiosity at a time!! 21 mpg at 90 mph? Hmmm...I wasn't mentioning it though...just curious. I rarely get over 10-12 in '68 Shadow MPW and in '86 Spur not even that. What's the secret??

P.S. Applying the ratio of Imperial vs US gallons (5:4) brings it down to 17 which still exceeds my wildest dreams at 65 mph highway driving. Should I drive faster? LOL



.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 2100
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, 26 November, 2018 - 06:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Ha. I hadn't clocked that Christian!
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 2007
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Monday, 26 November, 2018 - 07:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

IMO drive with a lighter foot better for MPG.
Forget the secondary door seals crap idea to try and get over the real fault, pressure high and low without forgetting drag! including cross wind high pressure.
We also have the car interior with pressure at speed, test try closing down all the inlet vents controls and use some foam blocks for the boot lid to close with a nice clonk but really leaves a small gap for the car inside pressure to escape.
Make sure the two vent flaps are working correctly behind the rear seat panel, don't want exhaust or any petrol fumes returning inside the car when outside high pressure occurs at lower speed differential.
Resume the use of air vents etc if ok.
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gordon le feuvre
Prolific User
Username: triumph

Post Number: 278
Registered: 7-2012
Posted on Monday, 26 November, 2018 - 07:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Out of interest secondary seals came about as German dealers were having issues with wind noise on autobahn. The originals apparently were Mercedes, bought up secretly from dealer network! On Shadow, even after new seals help, a "tweak" of window frame inwards with knee against inside of door works. Can tell if too much as loading on button to open door increases!
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 1256
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Monday, 26 November, 2018 - 08:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

21 mpg at 90-95 mph I suggest is possible in a Bentley T2 with a 100 mph tail wind.

Otherwise I think it would be a possible miscalculation.

At that speed in France I think the calculation of fuel economy is irrelevant to the cost of having your Bentley seized for scalliwag capers.

The above posts are very educational in relation to the wind noise/door seal question.
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P. Eng. Pierre Linh Raoul
Experienced User
Username: thrasher

Post Number: 15
Registered: 5-2018
Posted on Tuesday, 27 November, 2018 - 03:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I measured 3 times my mpg between retanking, both Friday on the way to Paris and Saturday back to London, dry and cold...yes 21/22 mpg running at 90/95mph...beautiful highways we have in France

In town at home (London) however i certainly average 10-11 mpg like you all.

90-95mph is only 145-152kmh...cops don't really care: it's not a huge excess (especially as there is a 5% free allowance)
At 105mph / 170kmh however, bye bye car on the spot, start walking
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P. Eng. Pierre Linh Raoul
Experienced User
Username: thrasher

Post Number: 16
Registered: 5-2018
Posted on Tuesday, 27 November, 2018 - 03:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Oups i meant 21-22 litres per 100km...so indeed 11-12mpg at 90-95mph

And like 7mpg in central london
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Christian S. Hansen
Grand Master
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 983
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Tuesday, 27 November, 2018 - 06:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

OK, these two curiosities aside, back to the original question. IMHO if the weather striping is such that the noise level is silent at 70mph and only evident at 90-95 and considering that those seals are now going on 40 years old, the likely cause is simply the most minor deterioration of those seals and will likely be rectified by a minor tweaking or more likely a replacement of the original seals properly (emphasis on properly) installed. Where the gaps of such size that the secondary seals would be appropriate, I would imagine that the wind noise would be noticeable at ANY speed, annoying at 70, and deafening at 90 mph. The issue is degraded original seals more than likely. Look there first. The Royce mechanics were simply answering the wrong question. i.e. "I have wind noise. Should I install the secondary seals?" rather than "I have wind noise. Is it possible that the original seals are past there prime of life and need replacement?" I am surprised however that they did not point this out in their response which would have been quite a bit more helpful.

.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 2009
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Tuesday, 27 November, 2018 - 06:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Just take the car to over a ton+ [on the test track] and feel the window frames move and lift of the seal gaps, more so with cross winds.

Without the boot mod!
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Robert J. Sprauer
Frequent User
Username: wraithman

Post Number: 82
Registered: 11-2017
Posted on Tuesday, 27 November, 2018 - 07:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I replaced all door and glass seals on my 1980 Wraith. The compression of the original door seals is obvious when compared to the new. Some of the new seals have a foam core that helps keep the profile. Age is a factor. The cost for 4 door seals on a Shadow/Wraith is approx $600 without labor. One can easily install the seals with the proper plastic tools.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 3072
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 27 November, 2018 - 09:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

There is another aid that helps restore older less supple elastomer seals to "as new" condition which is much loved by convertible owners traditionally plagued by water leaks and wind noise.

We also have a 10 year old VW Eos hardtop convertible and I discovered a seal lubricant/conditioner that dramatically reduced the incidence of water leaks and wind noise which plague owners of convertibles. This was originally available from VW, BMW and Mercedes-Benz dealers world-wide plus HSV and Mitsubishi here in Australia.

Eos

It is a special lubricant manufactured by Dupont in the USA called Krytox GPL105:

http://www2.dupont.com/Lubricants/en_US/assets/downloads/H-58510-5_Krytox_Typical_Properties.pdf

I purchased a quantity of this product direct from an Australian Dupont wholesaler who supplied the product to Mitsubishi - a bottle containing 50gm of liquid cost AUD90 and has lasted 3 years for twice yearly full seal treatments [roof, door and window seals].

The product is used sparingly and applied to all elastomer seals - old hard dull grey seals quickly become supple, soft and matt black in colour and the seal can be reshaped manually to eliminate gaps between the seal and body work. I just put a drop of lubricant on my finger tip and massage it along the seal surface until there is no more lubricant changing the seal colour and then get a new drop and start on the next section of untreated seal.

Be warned, Ebay has numerous listings for other low-priced seal conditioners claiming to be equal to GPL105 however these have been proved to be either diluted GPL105 which is less effective or other compounds which DO NOT work as effectively as GPL105.

IMHO, GPL105 is a classic example of "you get what you pay for" - the quality is remembered long after the price is forgotten.

application/pdfPDF
Krytox_Automotive_Product_Guide_K-17456-4.pdf (69.6 k)


.
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Steve Emmott
Experienced User
Username: steve_e

Post Number: 17
Registered: 11-2018
Posted on Saturday, 08 December, 2018 - 01:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I regularly achieved 18MPG average on our 800 mile trips to our French home from the UK.

Probably around 50% autoroute 50% urban. I never knowingly speed and keep to the 130km/h=80mph on the autoroute but some of the urban roads most of the time it was difficult to know whether it was 90 or 70 km/h limits so occasionally got flashed before I had the TomTom speed camera warning device.....never any follow up fines ever came.

You do have to be very careful though of the sneaky French cameras as they can turn up anywhere

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvYxXBMqEOM
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P. Eng. Pierre Linh Raoul
Experienced User
Username: thrasher

Post Number: 17
Registered: 5-2018
Posted on Saturday, 08 December, 2018 - 01:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

ahahahaha loved the video!

well done on the 18mpg too
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Larry Kavanagh
Prolific User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 299
Registered: 5-2016
Posted on Saturday, 08 December, 2018 - 12:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks for the funny video Steve, just wondering, if that camera man is being arrested for being a public nuisance does it not follow that speed cameras must all be considered a public nuisance?! I reckon I can get 18MPG too in my Silver Shadow 11 if I tip along sedately at approx. 100 KPH and don't accelerate too fast.
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Christian S. Hansen
Grand Master
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 1034
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Saturday, 08 December, 2018 - 06:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

1) Do you folks in Australia use Imperial gallons or US gallons?
2) Am I correct to assume that in UK it goes without question that a MPG figure is based on the Imperial gallon unless specifically stated otherwise?

.
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 1296
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Saturday, 08 December, 2018 - 08:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Christian we use neither Imperial Gallons nor US Gallons. Gallons were used up until 1966. Those gallons were imperial gallons. After 1996 we changed to litres.

Prices on litres depending where you are can vary from up to $2.00 AUD per litre down. Water in the petrol/gas is no additional price. Prices in cities can vary from station to station wildly and then you have to supermarkets that give you a discount voucher on your grocery receipt that can drop the price by 4 cents a litre.

My solution to the debacle in never to look at the price per litre - just roll in, fill up and then pay otherwise its annoying.
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Steve Emmott
Experienced User
Username: steve_e

Post Number: 20
Registered: 11-2018
Posted on Saturday, 08 December, 2018 - 10:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Christian, regarding the second question yes in the UK we still seem conditioned in our brains with MPG and it is an imperial gallon.

Even our new cars whether from Europe or homeland come with the electronic digital route displays still showing MPG but some do have features where you can change to litres per KM.

I suppose while we still use MPH on our speedos and roads it is an area not yet dealt with, but it is all so confusing when we have to buy fuel in litres.
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Christian S. Hansen
Grand Master
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 1035
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Sunday, 09 December, 2018 - 05:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Steve...
Thanks. You touched on what would have been a follow up question regarding my recollection of fuel being sold in litres which I though would/does add another level of confusion.
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P. Eng. Pierre Linh Raoul
Experienced User
Username: thrasher

Post Number: 18
Registered: 5-2018
Posted on Monday, 14 January, 2019 - 03:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brand new seals...super effective, very happy
They were a pain to install however, especially as itís freezing cold here right now! Had to use the heat gun a couple times to make it easier to push through.

Huge huge difference...now can cruise at 80-90mph without door/window wind noise. Noise now only coming from the boxy windscreen, normal...a brick going through air will never be silent.

Got to do the rear ones, I can hear a slight difference.
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P. Eng. Pierre Linh Raoul
Experienced User
Username: thrasher

Post Number: 19
Registered: 5-2018
Posted on Saturday, 19 January, 2019 - 11:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Another trip...gone surfing, yes a surfboard can fit in the boot (2more inside along with the baby seats) But most importantly, been cruising over 200miles at 90mph and brand new secondary seals (from Flyingspares) are amazing! Benny is actually a lot quieter than our G55k AMG at cruising. Can only recommend!
Do not hesitate, itís life changing!

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