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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1973
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Monday, 18 June, 2018 - 02:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The air con on my 74 SY1 (SRX18501) blows ice cold air however when I close the central air conditioning flap to redirect the air through the two circular outlet ducts either side of the fascia, I get a mixture of A/C cold air and ram effect ambient air. i.e. the air is only chilled. Is this normal operation for the air con on a series 1 car. I would have assumed manually closing the central flap would have internally blocked off the ram air from outside to allow ice cold air to be blown through the two circular ducts.

I'm trying to figure out if there is a fault on my car. The handbook is ambiguous about this, saying only "cold air can be supplied through these ducts"
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Jeff McCarthy
Grand Master
Username: jefmac2003

Post Number: 518
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Monday, 18 June, 2018 - 06:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff the usual culprit is the recirculation flaps. These are controlled by small electric actuators which get stuck. Some are accessible under small plastic cages via the front footwell. Others less so. I think there are instructions in the manuals.

The air through the vents should be ice cold, not ambient temperature.
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1974
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Monday, 18 June, 2018 - 07:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jeff

Thanks for that. I know your car is also a 74 so that's confirmed it. I thought the setup on my car was strange. I'll check out all the actuators as you have suggested.

Geoff
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Alan Dibley
Prolific User
Username: alsdibley

Post Number: 151
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Monday, 18 June, 2018 - 05:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

To check most of the actuators:-

1) Find a quiet environment.
2) Open the bonnet/hood.
3) Turn on the ignition.
4) Move any of the A/C switches in any direction (in/out or right/left) by one notch.
5) Listen for a whirring noise from the A/C area. There should be a short whirring noise when a switch is moved in one direction and a long noise (a few seconds) when moved in the other direction. The motors turn in only one direction so it takes a long time for the control to get right round the circle to the next position back.

No whirring means an actuator needs attention. Which one? Aaah, there's a question. Read the manual.

Some switches produce action from two actuators so the check is not perfect.

Alan D.
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gordon le feuvre
Prolific User
Username: triumph

Post Number: 251
Registered: 7-2012
Posted on Wednesday, 20 June, 2018 - 07:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

GEOFF, HAVE SOME UPDATED INFO, WILL POST IN NEXT 24HRS
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1975
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Wednesday, 20 June, 2018 - 11:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Alan - Thanks for the additional information.

Gordon - I look forward to the updated info.

I have not yet started work on this problem other than do some additional tests. The manual says there is a flap for each circular fascia duct so I was hoping one duct would be blowing cold and the other warm. Not the case - both are warm. It's quite possible both servos are jammed, or more likely, my analysis is wrong due to my total lack of knowledge of the ventilation system. That will change in a couple of weeks time when I have time to sort this (interesting) problem.
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Steve Janosik
New User
Username: catullus

Post Number: 7
Registered: 8-2017
Posted on Thursday, 21 June, 2018 - 12:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Have you checked the coolant servo that regulates hot water to the heater core? It is in the vicinity of the hydraulic reservoir.
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1976
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Thursday, 21 June, 2018 - 12:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Steve

Yes, it's fine. The heater core is definitely off. I've checked it.

The air con works great through the central vent but not through the circular fascia vents, where I get a mixture of ice cold air and ambient temperature ram air.
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gordon le feuvre
Prolific User
Username: triumph

Post Number: 252
Registered: 7-2012
Posted on Thursday, 21 June, 2018 - 01:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP


When "upper" acu switch is vertical or clockwise the airflow to bulls eyes is ambient air. When "upper" switch turned anticlock one position, the change-over actuator( situated behing top roll/facia) will open the flap to allow 'fridged air that has come through the evaporator to go up to ducting where bulls eyes are. At the same time, this flap closes off the ambient air flow to bulls eyes. If you turn on ign. and open bulls eye by shining torch into aperture this operation can be observed. What happened, giving your symtoms is that the flap pivots on small plastic buses that fall apart with age allowing flap to twist when operating and not fully close off the flow of ambient air direct to bulls eyes. When the changeover flap operating correctly ALL air being forced into heater box by blowers should be directed through evaporator ( see my not very good drawing) The bad news is that this flap is behind heater box cover under bonnet, which requires blowers/ducting/blower bases/main heater box cover to be removed for access! If ign. is turned off halfway through actuator cycle, by putting screwdriver into bullseye "hole", you might get to feel how loose flap is.
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1977
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Thursday, 21 June, 2018 - 03:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Gordon

Brilliant. That is so helpful. Thank you.

This also explains why I get warm air through both bulls eyes.

The good news is I do not have to take the car off the road to carry out the repair. I've had the blowers and ducts off before and have a couple of plates to cover the holes between the engine and passenger compartments. So this is a big job I can carry out at leisure.

Should have it done just in time for the high summer mega temperatures.

Geoff
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1978
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Thursday, 21 June, 2018 - 03:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Just to confirm Gordon's diagnosis, here's a pic looking down the bullseye with the vent open. You can see the flap at the back with the tatty orange colored foam rubber. I can hear the servo running as I switch the upper heating knob however, as Gordon predicted, the flap doesn't move. I assume it should rise upwards to cover the duct just behind it.

I notice the right hand bulls eye is the same. I'm wondering if there are two flaps on my car on the same spindle. I guess all will become obvious when I get in there.

be
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gordon le feuvre
Prolific User
Username: triumph

Post Number: 253
Registered: 7-2012
Posted on Thursday, 21 June, 2018 - 08:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff, glad to help. Just one long flap. Attended original Shadow course covering TWO WEEKS at Hythe Rd in 1967, some of it stuck!
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1979
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Thursday, 21 June, 2018 - 09:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Many thanks Gordon.

If anyone is interested I can post pics when I do this job.
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Jeff McCarthy
Grand Master
Username: jefmac2003

Post Number: 519
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Thursday, 21 June, 2018 - 12:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Just so you know what you're looking for/at:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fI7lbNJQq6k
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gordon le feuvre
Prolific User
Username: triumph

Post Number: 254
Registered: 7-2012
Posted on Saturday, 23 June, 2018 - 04:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff, part no is UD11158 It is listed as grommet and there is one at each end flap listed at 2.66 each on Flying Spares site. Also available from dealer network. If you were changing all of them ,I think there are 4 for upper quantity/temp flap. 4 for lower quantity/temp flap, 2 for change over flap (as we have been dealing with) and 2 for each recirculation flaps located at each end of front footwells, At least you CAN see the recirc. flaps operating, These operate when FULL anti clock selected on upper knob.
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1981
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Wednesday, 27 June, 2018 - 04:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jeff and Gordon

Thanks for the additional info.

It looks like I should be able to make a start on this project this weekend.
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Mike Eames
Yet to post message
Username: mike

Post Number: 1
Registered: 1-2005
Posted on Thursday, 28 June, 2018 - 05:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff, While all the above is true and helpful, it may be worth checking/replacing the diodes (located on the fuse board). The servo motors that control the various flaps can misbehave when these fail.
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gordon le feuvre
Prolific User
Username: triumph

Post Number: 255
Registered: 7-2012
Posted on Thursday, 28 June, 2018 - 06:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Mike, very true, but it will not give the symptoms of a mixture of ambient and 'fridged air. We discovered by accident that if the, I think bulls eye actuator diode misbehaved, hot air would come out of bulls eyes,some owners liked this to blow on their left hand whilst driving rhd cars in winter!
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 2002
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Wednesday, 25 July, 2018 - 08:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I've started the project to repair the flap/actuator on my heater/ac. I've removed the left side blower unit and duct. Next job will be to remove the heater matrix to expose the control box and get access to the flaps. It is already clear I will need to replace the foam rubber gaskets and linings - the originals are like powder.

I intend to buy some sheet foam rubber but I'm wondering if anyone knows the best type to use in this application.
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Kelly Opfar
Prolific User
Username: kelly_opfar

Post Number: 202
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Wednesday, 25 July, 2018 - 09:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff, the original precut seals are still available from FS, Introcar and others.
The main seal is UD11165 and the two side seals are UD11163.
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 2003
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Wednesday, 25 July, 2018 - 12:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Kelly

Thanks for your reply. The problem I have is I can see disintegrated foam rubber on the flaps and also, when I removed the left blower motor and duct, I found the heater box is lined with foam rubber that has now turned partially to powder. I suspect the lining is for insulation so is not really critical however the flaps will need their seals replacing to make them air tight(ish) and they are not available at FS.

It would be so useful if I could find the best material then I could refurbish the whole unit.
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Patrick Francis
Prolific User
Username: jackpot

Post Number: 237
Registered: 11-2016
Posted on Sunday, 12 August, 2018 - 10:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Guys
On this subject, I have a question please.
The left hand (upper) temperature control knob has 3 positions to the left. Originally, each position opened an adjustable valve on the air-condition circuit in increments to allow more refrigerant through the circuit and so cool the evaporator more with each click.
This valve was leaking, and so I upgraded to the recommended modification which just switches the aircon fully on as soon as the first position is reached.
I did this a while ago, and just put the switch on the first position whenever I need to switch the aircon on.
The other day, I was going through these three positions with the ignition on and the engine off, and on switching to the first position, I hear the bullseye actuator and the recirculating actuator moving.
When they have moved fully, I find that moving the switch to the other positions makes no difference to the actuators (as should be the case).
BUT, when I get to the last position (9 o'clock), I hear a definite solenoid "click" from the left hand side of the bonnet where the adjustable valve used to be. This click goes on and off between the 2nd and 3rd position.
Anyone know what that could be?
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Steve Janosik
New User
Username: catullus

Post Number: 8
Registered: 8-2017
Posted on Monday, 13 August, 2018 - 01:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

If I understand your situation correctly - You are probably experiencing what is generally called "fresh air versus re-circulation of cabin air.
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Patrick Francis
Prolific User
Username: jackpot

Post Number: 240
Registered: 11-2016
Posted on Monday, 13 August, 2018 - 02:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Steve
Thanks for your thoughts.
No, the recirculation air is governed by the recirulating actuator which comes on with the first position of the knob.
The sound that I am talking about is definitely a sort of "solenoid" sound, and occurs between the 2nd and last positions of the knob.
Thanks
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 1946
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Monday, 13 August, 2018 - 03:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

IMO could be a failed diode letting a return active currant into the system.
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Patrick Francis
Prolific User
Username: jackpot

Post Number: 242
Registered: 11-2016
Posted on Tuesday, 14 August, 2018 - 07:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks guys. Will update you when I find the culprit!
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Martin Taylor
Prolific User
Username: martin_taylor

Post Number: 135
Registered: 7-2013
Posted on Wednesday, 15 August, 2018 - 06:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

If it is a click it may be the fast idle solenoid if your car has one, it should come on when the compressor runs.
The heater flap box can be removed without removing the heater matrix.
The inner flap grommets can also be done from inside the car if one is flexible enough although it is an unpleasant job
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Patrick Francis
Prolific User
Username: jackpot

Post Number: 243
Registered: 11-2016
Posted on Saturday, 18 August, 2018 - 09:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Guys

The click is coming from the otter reset switch in the cubbyhole under my glove compartment which is for resetting the electric windows!! Gremlins, or is Patrick L right?

Which diode might it be Patrick - one of the ones in the fusebox?



.
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Steve Janosik
New User
Username: catullus

Post Number: 9
Registered: 8-2017
Posted on Sunday, 19 August, 2018 - 06:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I hope that this is sufficiedntly ON TOPIC.
To wit:

Is there a professional way to load cans of R12 into a professional Robinair or equivalent machine for use by a professional automobile air condition technician? If not; could a professional technician engineer such a connection using standard available hoses and adapters?

If not; Is it possible to obtain a quality R12 recharge and/or refrigerant addition through the schrader valve(s) in the POA, etc.

With gratitude and kind regards . . .
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 2996
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 19 August, 2018 - 09:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Steve,

Our country would appreciate you not continuing the use of R12 as we experience very high rates of skin cancer due to the "hole in the ozone layer" created by this and other ozone-depleting chemicals in the southern hemisphere.

http://www.environment.gov.au/protection/ozone/ozone-science/ozone-layer

Thanks to world-wide restrictions on the use of ozone-depleting chemicals such as R12; there has been a significant reduction the size of the hole in the ozone layer in recent years. This reduction will help reduce our incidence of skin cancer in the years to come.

There are alternative non-ozone-depleting refrigerants for air conditioning and refrigeration systems and your co-operation in not adding to our problem by returning your R12 to an authorised disposal centre and replacing it with one of the many alternative environmentally friendly refrigerants will be appreciated. I have successfully used Hychill -30 refrigerant in my old R12 vehicle without having to modify the A/C system.

https://hychill.com.au/products/minus-30

.
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 2013
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Sunday, 19 August, 2018 - 10:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Patrick F - All 7 diodes relating to the A/C system are in the fusebox. It's not worth tracing individual ones, just replace them all. They are very cheap and easy to change. Any diode of the 1N4001 to 1N4007 series will suffice. They are all the same size and the only difference is the reverse voltage thay can handle. I used 1N4004s when I changed mine. Make sure you replace them the right way round - they are polarity sensitive.

When I did mine I checked all the diodes with a meter and found two of the originals were faulty, so a job well worth doing.
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Steve Janosik
New User
Username: catullus

Post Number: 10
Registered: 8-2017
Posted on Sunday, 19 August, 2018 - 11:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Many thanks, David - for the good news about Hychill -30 refrigerant. I am glad to hear about this for the first time. It is probably flammable. But this does not bother me because if the AC system is tight enough to hold the refrigerant; there should be no concern regarding flames.

As Tiny Tim said: "God bless us all!"
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 2998
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 19 August, 2018 - 04:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Steve,

HyChill -30 has proved to be a good replacement for R12 unlike R134 which requires all the flexible hoses in the A/C system to be replaced otherwise the smaller R134 molecules permeate through the hoses leading to a loss of efficiency in an unacceptably brief period of time. Been there done that....... Replacement R134 compatible new hoses are not available for my vehicle as Toyota used custom swage fittings which are no longer available as spare parts.

Yes the Hychill is flammable but the amount used to charge the system is not great [about 200gram for for my Toyota 4Runner/Surf \(USA)] and there are other flammable fluids in greater quantities contained in the engine bay which are equally dangerous in a crash situation.

In our hot climate, I would like to try the HyChill -50 as the -30 takes a little time to liquify properly in ambient temperatures of 35+deg Celsius after the car has been standing for an hour or more resulting in a short period of time before the cooling kicks in properly after the engine starts.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2631
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Monday, 20 August, 2018 - 02:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

David,

I add the following not with the intention of causing consternation, but hoping that it will get folks to talk to their local AC specialists regarding R12 to R134.

Here in my little corner of the world AC technicians have not been replacing flexible hoses when doing this conversion for some years now. My 1989 Cadillac July 2016 with no hose replacement at the express recommendation of my technician. It's still going strong two years later. I don't know what has changed, perhaps some additive to PAG or what, but he was quite clear that he has not done flexible hose replacement when doing R12 to R134 and that was the result of both manufacturer (which one, I don't know) recommendation and having experimented enough to know that it was not necessary.

I would definitely have a conversation with at least several different automotive AC specialists in your (for any you) area to inquire what their practice is when doing an R12 to R134 conversion and get the rationale.

Brian
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John Kilkenny
Prolific User
Username: john_kilkenny

Post Number: 292
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Monday, 20 August, 2018 - 09:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I use Hychill Minus 30 in my Shadow 1. It is a blend of two hydrocarbons, iso-butane and propane and while it doesn't give the ice-encrusted pipes I can remember with R12, it is quite satisfactory even on the hottest days in Melbourne.
John
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 2999
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 21 August, 2018 - 09:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

John,

The lack of ice is due to the fact the refrigerant has absorbed heat from the evaporator under the dash and this heat will be dissipated in the condenser after the refrigerant returns to the compressor and is recompressed.

The R12 had greater cooling capacity and this is why it was cold enough in the return line to the compressor to form ice. I suspect the Hychill -30 would act similarly if a greater amount was used in charging the system [the charge specification is by weight not volume and not system pressures and I suspect the Hychill may require higher system pressures to give the expansion required to absorb more heat in the evaporator - over to the experts for comment....]

.
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Patrick Francis
Prolific User
Username: jackpot

Post Number: 244
Registered: 11-2016
Posted on Sunday, 26 August, 2018 - 05:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks for diode info Geoff.
Does anyone know if there is a Hychill -30 equivalent available in Europe? I would like to charge a 1965 Mustang that I have purchased.

I converted my Shadow 1 to 134a and replaced the compressor (which was shot anyway) and filter only.
I started with 950g, then 1050g, then 1150g and now finally 1300g, but I find it is still not as efficient as the R12 was.
I understand that 134a should 80% of the R12 by weight and so 1.59Kg x 0.8 = 1.29Kg , so not sure if I should risk putting more in??
Thanks
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 3003
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 26 August, 2018 - 08:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hychill -30 is a trade name for a blend of R600A and R290 hydrocarbon refrigerants. The amount required to charge a system appears to be a "work-in-progress" requiring experimentation as different suppliers have different blends and what works for one supplier may not be the same for another supplier.

https://hychill.com.au/products/minus-30

Patrick - you will have problems with the Shadow A/C R12 flexible hoses as the R134 will diffuse through the hoses in a relatively short time leading to loss of cooling efficiency. To overcome this problem, all the hoses need to be replaced with R134A-compatible hoses if you intend to continue to use R134A; this is not necessary with the hydrocarbon-based refrigerants as far as I am aware.

.
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John G.
Frequent User
Username: john116

Post Number: 77
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Monday, 27 August, 2018 - 06:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Over 20 years, ands multiple cars, I've never had to change hoses when converting to R134. O-rings, yes, but never hoses. Nothing has leaked, certainly on two cars for over 20 years, and other cars are around the 10 year mark.
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Patrick Francis
Prolific User
Username: jackpot

Post Number: 245
Registered: 11-2016
Posted on Monday, 27 August, 2018 - 06:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thank you David. Am I right in saying that there are only 2 flexi hoses for the aircon, leading to and from the compressor?

At a tangent- interestingly, I have changed the rubber hoses that go from the brake reservoir to the hydraulic pumps 3 times with variations from various sources including Flying Spares and Introcar, and they still weep!

I now just wipe them occasionally and swear under my breath.
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Patrick Francis
Prolific User
Username: jackpot

Post Number: 254
Registered: 11-2016
Posted on Tuesday, 16 October, 2018 - 09:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Geoff
Replaced all the diodes, even though there were no faulty ones - but still get the clicking from the window reset switch when switching the aircon control from the 2nd to the 3rd position and back.
Hmmm gremlins again!
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 2069
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, 16 October, 2018 - 05:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Patrick, have you disconnected the window reset box and tried?
Do you have to reset the box?
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Patrick Francis
Prolific User
Username: jackpot

Post Number: 262
Registered: 11-2016
Posted on Wednesday, 17 October, 2018 - 07:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Paul
When I disconnect the box, it doe not click but the windows don't work either.
The click is very slight and does not cause the box to need resetting.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 2073
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, 18 October, 2018 - 03:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Very mysterious.

If it's working ignore it ;)
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Jeff McCarthy
Grand Master
Username: jefmac2003

Post Number: 566
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Thursday, 01 November, 2018 - 11:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

There are some useful schematic diagrams of the Air-con system in this PDF.

http://au.rrforums.net/forum/messages/17001/33602.html?1541031761

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