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Jeff Cheng
Frequent User
Username: makeshift

Post Number: 97
Registered: 2-2016
Posted on Tuesday, 06 June, 2017 - 10:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

So I'm trying to repair a slow window, and have the regulator out of the car.

Hooking the motor (separately) back up to the doortest, pressing the window switch DOWN makes the motor spin, but UP does not reverse the direction or spin at all. Testing the terminals shows 12v+ with the switch DOWN, but nothing with it UP.

Suggestions?
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Jeff Cheng
Frequent User
Username: makeshift

Post Number: 98
Registered: 2-2016
Posted on Wednesday, 07 June, 2017 - 01:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Problem solved. Further digging found a broken wire at the terminal block in the door.
Those old wires are brittle!

On a related note, does anyone know what the deal is with the clutch solenoid opposite the motor?
I've read of some removing it to prevent jamming?
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2334
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 07 June, 2017 - 06:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jeff,

If necessary, do a web search of the forums using the

site:au.rrforums.net/forum/messages

operator using the search engine of your choice along with the keywords "window" and "clutch."

I did not remove mine, but at the same time I don't think they generally do diddly squat, as I have never seen a window move other than when activated on cars that have retained the window clutch and those that have had it removed.

I have yet to see one of these used on any other electric window system, and I've had enough occasion to tear into doors having said systems to make an assessment.
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 1573
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Wednesday, 07 June, 2017 - 12:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Gents,

I still have not had the time to see why my left rear window wont go down, but then slowly motors down when the up button is pushed on both drivers & L/H/R doors.

I did mention I got a crap load of water over my door switches, but when I pulled the cover off I realised I cant get the switches out without removing the door card.

I did give the switches a liberal dousing of WD40 in the drivers door, but 3 weeks later, still the same.

I might open the back door first I'm thinking.

These windows are probably the most troublesome things on these cars.
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ross kowalski
Grand Master
Username: cdfpw

Post Number: 450
Registered: 11-2015
Posted on Wednesday, 07 June, 2017 - 12:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Patrick,

The most troublesome things in these cars are the drivers in my experience, but the switches are industry standard micro switches. If they were bad which would be a surprise as their mean time between failures is extremely high they could be easily and cheaply replaced with real Cherry brand for another 50 years of trouble free service. Those switches are the best switches fit to any car ever.

Jeff,

The clutches can be removed. If you need a set, let me know and you can have mine which are in a bucket in my garage.

Brian,

Modern window motors do have clutches. They are a little weird how they operate but here is a link to pulling the sprag clutch on a denso motor


http://team1640.com/wiki/index.php?title=Nisso-Denko_(Window)_Motor_Locking_Pins
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 1574
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Wednesday, 07 June, 2017 - 12:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks Ross, good info.

I will tackle the door whenever I get time LOL

I need to retire
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Jeff Cheng
Frequent User
Username: makeshift

Post Number: 99
Registered: 2-2016
Posted on Wednesday, 07 June, 2017 - 01:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian,
You are correct, and I don't see how the window could drop without broken components, as it would essentially be trying to drive the motor/worm gear backwards, at a huge gearing disadvantage
My brake solenoid tested OK (I assume) as it reduced pressure/retracted with window operation, so I left it in.
There were no contact marks or signs of the clutch dragging.

Patrick,
Having now inspected the guts of my rear door, I can say that pulling the door card is quite straight-forward, with no hidden fasteners like on new cars, just lots of individual screws and machined spacers (they seem to fall out from nowhere)
I would suggest applying a direct 12v feed to the motor and see if the window operates both ways, which would eliminate regulator issues, then probe the power feed to the motor. My wiring inside the door was original and quite crusty, The switch is really 2 separate microswitches operated by the 'toggle', so I'm trying hard to think of any way the polarity to the motor could be reversed that way.
Keep us updated on your progress.

With my regulator, I found that my motor (out on the bench) would sometimes not want to start spinning without some 'assistance', then spin strongly. I adjusted the preload off a touch, and ran the motor in both direction for a few minutes, in case it was a symptom of sitting. Much better afterwards.
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 1575
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Wednesday, 07 June, 2017 - 02:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks Jeff,

I will see how I go.

The card is just fixed to the door in the normal way with metal inserts slid into holes in the door card?
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Jeff Cheng
Frequent User
Username: makeshift

Post Number: 100
Registered: 2-2016
Posted on Wednesday, 07 June, 2017 - 03:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Patrick,
Yup, 2 screws under the window switch trim, 2 screws under the door handle trim, 2 bolts underneathe the armrest, the just the spring clips. The door card sits 'under' the wood doorcap a little, so start prying from the bottom.
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Martin Taylor
Frequent User
Username: martin_taylor

Post Number: 76
Registered: 7-2013
Posted on Wednesday, 07 June, 2017 - 07:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

It's not a clutch, it's a brake, after I stripped, lubed and cleaned the tracks on mine it would fall to the bottom with a clunk if I left the brake off, windows go up and down real fast too, I had to take a few turns off one solenoid as it was open circuit, also removed a few shims so it would lift fast and not drag.
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 1576
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Wednesday, 07 June, 2017 - 07:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks Jeff,

I'll be away this weekend again, so hopefully next weekend.
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ross kowalski
Grand Master
Username: cdfpw

Post Number: 451
Registered: 11-2015
Posted on Thursday, 08 June, 2017 - 11:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Martin,

Correct RR is a brake and modern are one way sprag clutches.

I did a CLA on both front regulators and while the windows do coast a bit farther down after releasing the switch, they don't rattle down further when driving.

To be fair all I did for the C of the CLA was carb cleaner and compressed air in situ and synthetic grease for the L.

Jeff,

Two switches can act as a motor reversing deal if you put power and ground to the NC and NO on each switch and run the commons to the motor.

It's quite common to reverse motors this way with two automotive relays. I would guess the switches fire two relays that are wired as I described. I'll look at the wiring diagram tonight.
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1718
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Thursday, 08 June, 2017 - 12:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Patrick - Here's a link to an earlier thread on removing the door cards - there are a few pics which may be of use.

http://au.rrforums.net/forum/messages/17001/22057.html

Geoff
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 1577
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Thursday, 08 June, 2017 - 02:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Great stuff Geoff,

Exactly the correct door as well

Thank you.
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Alan Dibley
Frequent User
Username: alsdibley

Post Number: 62
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Thursday, 08 June, 2017 - 06:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

At least on some RR/Bs (like mine) the two switches feed one of the two stator windings to achieve reverse rotation. An unusual way but RRs way.

Alan D.
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ross kowalski
Grand Master
Username: cdfpw

Post Number: 454
Registered: 11-2015
Posted on Friday, 09 June, 2017 - 08:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Alan,

Your absolutely right on the reversing by coil system.

I looked at the wiring diagram and it clearly shows two field coils. My Lotus has that system too.

They must have had some reason for going that route. Maybe it weighed more. That seems to be an important design consideration for RR.

What was Colin Chapman thinking ????
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 1582
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Monday, 19 June, 2017 - 12:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Gents,

Had 5 minutes yesterday to remove the door card.

Everything inside looks great, all wiring is in tact & connected

However I notice the relay only clicks in one direction.
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Alan Dibley
Frequent User
Username: alsdibley

Post Number: 66
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Monday, 19 June, 2017 - 06:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Patrick, the relay must operate in both directions. It is not a reversing relay - it feeds 12volts direct to the brushes/armature. This symptom suggests an open circuit field winding. These motors suffer from corrosion in the field windings because any water which gets in through a defect in the outer black sleeve causes electrolysis in the lowest part of the assembly - one of the field coils. (I'm assuming this is a square/oblong shaped motor, not a new-fangled round one. If it's round ignore this posting.)

Observe the ammeter while working the window switch. It probably reads a significant discharge when switched in one direction, and little or nothing in the other, I assume the window is either fully up or fully down?

It is possible to rewind a field coil. I have a jig which has served to hand-wind several coils for about fourpence each. It is worth opening up the black covering to look for green corrosion. The cover can be repaired quite well enough (and neatly) by careful use of tape and adhesive.

It is fiddly but possible to wind a new coil on the motor - if you don't want to do it, find someone who isn't afraid of electricity. (The postage between Cheddar, UK. and Penrith, NSW might make the offer of doing it for you a tad pricy.)

Alan D.
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 1583
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Wednesday, 21 June, 2017 - 07:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Alan,

Currently I am hampered by too much work and too many commitments on weekends.

I got the window in the up position, and kept it there with some wood.

I will try and get the whole assembly out of the door within the next few weeks for a closer look.

I will keep you posted.
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John Kilkenny
Prolific User
Username: john_kilkenny

Post Number: 265
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Wednesday, 21 June, 2017 - 10:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The older rectangular window lift motor with the two field windings requires both field windings to be intact for the relay to operate in either direction. This is because the relay is energised via the un-selected field winding when the window switch is pressed. The relay contacts will then energise the Brake Release Solenoid and the Armature winding to move the window.

When one of the field windings is open circuit, and that winding is selected with the switch, the relay will operate via the unselected field winding (The resistance of the relay is much higher than the field winding) to energise the brake release solenoid and armature winding. Because there is no current through the selected field winding the motor does not run. If the unselected field winding is open circuit the relay will not operate so again the motor will not run.

The slow dropping of the window when the UP switch is pressed is probably due to the UP switch still being pressed after the Window Motor Overload operates. This allows a reverse current through the armature winding and Up field winding via the Brake Release Solenoid.
Those who have this type of window motor can confirm this by pressing the UP switch until the Overload operates. Keep the UP switch pressed and the window will slowly fall until you release the switch. The overload cutout will restore after a few seconds and normal operation can resume.
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 1585
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Wednesday, 21 June, 2017 - 11:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

This is very interesting.

I think my car has the rectangular motor.

My car also does not have any overload re set under the glove box as previously mentioned.
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John Kilkenny
Prolific User
Username: john_kilkenny

Post Number: 266
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Wednesday, 21 June, 2017 - 01:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Patrick,
There is an overload cut-out in each motor. It restores when the motor cools.
John
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 1586
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Wednesday, 21 June, 2017 - 05:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Oh ok,

Thanks John,

The windows have always been perfect until the weekend sitting out, and driving in pretty full on rain.

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