| Author | Message | ||
     Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 368 Registered: 9-2004 |
Car all ready to do the conversion parts priced and all ready to go. Father ring this number......! Straight through to the Castrol company HQ Tec.all my questions were answered with a quick response. Q, what was the reason for the change in formular and when. A. change in Sept 1998. reason DOT 3 discontinued no longer able to supply for the base fluid of 363. Q,What is the shelf life of RR363. A.24 months. Q.Is the 363 made by Castrol still ok in the place of LHS2. A,YES.Citroen cars with the Black resevoir. Q.Will the product be discontinued in the near future or sometime in the future. A,In the near future no,in the future only if the product volume drops below 5000 litres a year. Then it would be passed to our historic dept to be delt with. Q what are the sales volume at pressent. A, 12000 litres per year. Q, What are your stocking volumes. A, 530, packs of 12 litres. Well needless to say the car is off the hoist and RR363 will be staying in the system. Well done Castrol. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 649 Registered: 4-2003 |
Brilliant research, Pat. | ||
| Gordon Norris Frequent User Username: crewes_missile Post Number: 84 Registered: 2-2005 |
Wow Pat! An actual tech support line answered by a human being with real usable info! HOW RARE IS THAT TODAY?!! It's now 4 days since I sent some simple enquiries to Crewe via email re the thermostat change and, although they acknowledged receipt, I'm still waiting for a reply. I saw the Castrol tech support number when I was posting the RR363 technical bulletin last week, but assumed it would be useless like most such facilities today. It restores my faith somewhat. We should probably all try the obvious like this more often...might save alot of conjecture and anguish, not to mention bandwidth on the forum...  Well done again Pat, and Cheers to Castrol. GN. | ||
| Robert Wort Grand Master Username: robert_wort Post Number: 161 Registered: 12-2004 |
I second both Richard's and Gordon's comments too Pat. When the Swamm site re-opens (Temporarily closed to sort out Dare), this info should be forwarded to it as well. Not only will it discredit this evil ba****d, once and for all, it should allay any fears of the other users of RR 363 that access their forum. Great work Pat. PS. This Forum serves to prove that 'What is Dare-free is Carefree (Apologies for the corny remark, I just couldn't resist it  ) RW | ||
| Gordon Norris Frequent User Username: crewes_missile Post Number: 88 Registered: 2-2005 |
Oh Robert, I was just going to say you're being a "Dare-devil", but it would also be too corny...  NB: no offence implied or directed to any Dares, devils, Roberts, Gordons, corns, or people with winking right eyes, and any resemblance to any person living or dead is purely coincidental... GN. | ||
| Robert Wort Grand Master Username: robert_wort Post Number: 163 Registered: 12-2004 |
To/ Gordon,   Enough of this levity. | ||
| Harry Kuurio Experienced User Username: harry_kuurio Post Number: 17 Registered: 4-2004 |
Hi, Good input from Pat. However, the same questions still remain. a) RR363 is NOT available in many European countries (not in any Nordic coutries), and has to be ordered either from UK, USA or AU. (e.g.) b) living with this kind of an arrangement is just tolerable, but certainly NOT a good deal. We're hung on sole provider, and for a reason Castrol doesn't seem to want to tell us. Financial? Creditibility? Both? Else? c) I have an e-mail from Castrol Finland stating their first reference for shopping RR363. Here it is: http://www.motorcarsltd.com/ I wonder why this Motorcars ltd can have Castrol stuff that Castrol Finland can't? d) Imagine going abroad for a holiday trip with your Shadow, to Spain for example, and experiencing brake problems (in the heat it could actually happen, a simple leak or something similar) there that necessiated brake fluid change. How many days it would take to get RR363 into a Spanish pittoresque village? Three? Five? A week? Holiday 'made' by Castrol ignorance... just a thought. e) Pat, you're a good lad. However, those A's you got from Castrol HQ are just too nicely calculated (or seem to be) around the current sales figures. By them I mean. This could all be just calming us down to keep things going until they 'drop the bomb'. The information and experience I've got on this subject is totally different in many ways. Sorry. BUT, if Castrol can provide the same information IN WRITING I'm more than happy. Then, of course, I'd like to hear why they are so stiff about making small deliveries to many EU countries? For heavens sake, this is RR, and they don't want to keep us happy, which in turn would be excellent PR. Or? f) The situation keeps on bringing me up words 'monopoly' and 'obstacling free trade' within EU. Worth a thought, in that respect, too. While things are running ok in many countries and not well at all in as many, I'll hang on Castrol and see if I'll get some news from them - good or bad. I'll keep you posted. DH | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 653 Registered: 4-2003 |
DH, I agree absolutely. I think for now: Use RR363 normally. Use DOT3/4 temporarily in an emergency. Soon, I am sure we can somehow sort out a permanent solution, be it a castor oil mix or otherwise. Be assured, those of us who can obtain RR363 are definitely not smug. Monopoly or not, there just has to be a better status quo. RT. | ||
| Harry Kuurio Experienced User Username: harry_kuurio Post Number: 18 Registered: 4-2004 |
RT, You are so right. It's nice to know one is not alone... Next Tuesday, I'll visit a Finnish University's Auto Dep't, and will start asking around on the topic while things are in process with Castrol. I mean, a full chemical analysis. For those who may think I'm making useless fuss about it all - please forgive me, I DO NOT want to be PITA, but it just appears that we're living different worlds depending where you happen to live. For example, RR doesn't have an importer here in Finland at all (it's the damned BMW of course) - whereas Maybach, Ferrari, Porsche etc. have. For those who don't know, Finland is a country with top 10 GNP all over the world ever since the 50's. Ever heard of Nokia mobile phones? It's a Finnish product. Yes, not Japanese as most US people think (no intention to hurt anyone). So, this prob with RR363 is the silliest I've come cross ever here. BTW; a Citroën CV2 desert rally team once lubricated the little fighter engine with mushed bananas when they run out of oil - and they finished! True story. Oops, I'm going sligthly funny now, but maybe bananas mix well with DOT4? Castor oil is veg based... Feel free to laugh, anyone, on me or the joke...! Prolongs one's life, they say. DH | ||
| Gordon Norris Frequent User Username: crewes_missile Post Number: 90 Registered: 2-2005 |
Harry, It's a well known urban legend in Australia, and I imagine other countries that disreputable second-hand car dealers (is a reputable one an oxymoron?) used to put bananas in diffs and gearboxes to quieten them and hide wear....sawdust was another favourite, but I'd prefer bananas... GN. | ||
| Robert Wort Grand Master Username: robert_wort Post Number: 164 Registered: 12-2004 |
Just a thought, For those in Europe that can get the stuff, maybe it might be worthwhile bulk ordering RR363 (200 litres worth), dividing it up into dozen bottles and posting it off to members in areas that it's not available at cost plus postage. This way everyone gets what they need. Is this scenario possible? | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 654 Registered: 4-2003 |
DH, To reuse someone else's cartoon,  Let's enjoy our lives !! | ||
| Robert Wort Grand Master Username: robert_wort Post Number: 165 Registered: 12-2004 |
Okay okay. Just a thought. | ||
| Bill Coburn Grand Master Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 364 Registered: 4-2003 |
Well noting Robert's suggestion and resisting the cynisism of which I have plenty, can I make the ridiculous observation that if the various National Clubs got off their arse they could actually provide this service for members where our ice bound friend is in need rather than flogging sterling silver RR badged rectum reamers complete with velvet lined box!! Pah!!! | ||
| Gordon Norris Frequent User Username: crewes_missile Post Number: 92 Registered: 2-2005 |
Bill, How much for a box of the sterling silver RR badged rectum reamers? I've been looking everywhere for them  Seriously though, Bill is correct; I've belonged to so many car and marque clubs over the years, and the true DIY enthusiasts who keep the majority of the cars going, are the very same who tend to be looked down upon with scorn, whilst the club organisers are often more interested in planning the next drunken soire, or peddling suspect mechandise. And that is what is so refreshing about this forum...people are (shock! horror!) ENCOURAGED to work on their cars...time for the clubs to follow suit...who do we need to bombard with emails/letters/pidgeons, etc? ...this concludeth the whinge... GN. | ||
| Jon Rothwell Frequent User Username: jon_rothwell Post Number: 24 Registered: 4-2004 |
This may be relevant to this debate. I run model cars for fun, the fuel formulation is: 70% methyl alcohol 10% Nitro methane 20% CASTOR OIL. (varies depending on grade used) These engines run at 15,000-20,000 rpm and do so reliably for many hours despite being rather crude by modern automotive standards. The use of Castor oil for lubrication in internal combustion engines is not rocket science, and as we all know it has been used for many decades in a variety of applications. Anyone out there read Biggles books? I would suggest that 10% Castor oil added to normal brake fluid could only improve the lubricant properties of the fluid. Being a liquid it is incompressible, and obviously its heat, lubrication, and pressure credentials are proven well beyond what a braking system would require. Correct me if I’m wrong, but perhaps the Castrol formula is not so secret, rather it is just a logical use of an existing set of proven products blended and tested to work in a certain application. Thoughts anyone? | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 374 Registered: 9-2004 |
Brakeing fluid 363, much more to it than just adding castor oil,how about the anti foaming agent for one. The pumps working some foam into the system "o dear" I believe Castrol, there is much much more to it. To dabble with adding castor oil to DOT 4 is asking for TROUBLE. To suggest and doing so is irresponsible and could put liability to the person doing so if an accident was proven through incorrect fluid. Insurance companys are already doing fluid tests for water contamination in some unexplained accidents. Now back to the garden. | ||
| Jon Rothwell Frequent User Username: jon_rothwell Post Number: 25 Registered: 4-2004 |
I'm not suggesting anyone add anything to anything, merely the possiblility that things may not be as complex as they seem and that some bench testing may be in order. The fluid may be just what it appears to be, ordinary brake fluid with a Castor oil based lubricant added. After all if standard fluids have already been used in the Shadow system without foaming then they may well already contain the anti foaming agent required. Do modern ABS systems requre an anti foaming fluid, or special fluids formulated by the respective makers? Makers of the ABS equipped cars I own just recommend standard fluid. By the way neither of the Rolls Royce owners hand books I have even mention RR363, one specifies Castrol-Girling Amber Brake Fluid 1738, and the other specifies Castrol-Girling Brake and Clutch Fluid Crimson to SAE 70R3. Of course the Castol formula is secret, they have to carry the manufacturers liability, and it is also low volume which is reflected in the price. BUT, being secret and low volume does not mean that it is an especially exotic formula. I stand by my comment that adding 10% Castor oil to standard brake fluid could only improve it's lubricant qualities though, perhaps I'm wrong, but I might be right too. Possibly the Castor oil would gum the works up, or seperate, or swell the seals, who knows, but without someone willing to do some testing and chemical analysis we won't know for sure till Castrol stops making RR363 and we are all suddenly forced to find an alternative. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 656 Registered: 4-2003 |
Jon, I am convinced that you are correct. It's a pity that Castrol doesn't put us out of our misery. I would not recommend anyone try this out, but am personally prepared to try myself after a few tests, and maybe try it out in the car once my considerable litres of RR363 are exhausted. Someone needs to be the guineapig. My guess is also maybe 10%-15% Castrol R with DOT4 is OK, but will make some viscosity comparisons in the meantime. As soon as I have some Castrol R this week, I'll mix 15% with DOT4 and see if it dissolves and let it settle for a few months to see if it settles out or stays solvent. RT. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 375 Registered: 9-2004 |
Joh if, when, if ever Castrol stopped normal production as i have already stated they would then pass the product over to their historic dept to be delt with, the price may then go up. Regarding the price now it is peanuts for the correct spec 363 fluid. RR running the early Dot 3 fluid as you state in the early cars, Ah Ha! was that the problem of the early type push rods snapping and pump failures with factory mods being carried out!with the introduction of the 363. As i have said before when i ran the Dot 4. I developed a noisy brake prump etc this has been ok since returning to the 363 coincidence i don't think so. Take double cream with the milk lovely in the tummy but no good for the engine. Why not give it a whirl 10% castor in the DOT 4 in your car,Remember to do test in all climate temp ranges. Also take out a FULL liability insurance and DOT approval. Yes most cars with ABS use DOT4 Will look into some new cars running with ABS that has a new type of fluid i think. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 657 Registered: 4-2003 |
Pat, Bill C. may correct this, but my understanding is as follows. At first, R-R used pretty standard Girling brake fluit with solid pump pushrods. A few pump plungers seized, and caused catastrophic damage to the pumps, valley covers and camshafts. R-R then introduced a pushrod with a weak point to fail in case of seizure. While all this was going on, they worked with Castrol to improve the fluid used in the lubrication department due to continued pump failures. RR363 was not listed in early literature as it simply did not exist. Later, the pushrod weak point was found to be too weak as they were fatiguing and failing in service. The stronger Silver Spirit pushrod is fitted as a replacement. It still has a weak point for protection, but not quite so weak. Bill C. fitted a pair to our T-Series maybe 15 years ago when one failed. I had been running DOT4 for two months on some bad advice from a chemical engineer mate. It may or may not have been a coincidence, but needless to say we switched back to RR363. A few minor rear ram groans when fully laden disappeared at the time RR363 was back in too, all indicating that the lubrication is critical. With this experience, I am a supporter of RR363 while it lasts. However, once it has gone, we need to know what to do. And yes, my BMW with ABS uses bog standard DOT4. RT. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 423 Registered: 4-2003 |
Richard, When you do your tests using Castrol R; can you do some extra samples and put one in the fridge and one in the freezer for extended periods of time to see if there is any separation/coagulation at low temperatures. I understand Mark Bardenwerper ran into this problem but I suspect he was using straight castor oil and not Castrol R which I would expect to contain the necessary stabilisers/defoamer/emulsifiers. I suspect the 18% additive level nominated by Mark is about right - 10% may be too low. As an aside, who remembers the exhaust smell of cars using Castor Oil lubricants - only problem came after you inhaled too deeply for too long - best laxative around!! | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 376 Registered: 9-2004 |
Richard when doing your tests could you submerge some "O" rings etc that have been used with 363 in your mixture. | ||
| Miguel A. Garcia Experienced User Username: magarcia Post Number: 17 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hi, Harry, if the story that you sugest would happen really in any other place than Madrid or Marbella, for you to get the rr363 in Spain should have to pay 30,5 Euros litter, plus the VAT, the Courier, and has to wait over 1 or 2 days...If you ask it from UK, price would be much cheper, but has to wait for one week to get the parcel. Thats why I carry in my car always 3 bottels of it. As i told in some previous posts, in Spain, Castrol does not provide for any kore the RR363. The status of this item is "nonavailable" from 5 years ago. Even, is possible to find it at the RR and Bentley official dealers "Royal Crown" (just one in Madrid and other one in Marbella) for a country of 42 million people, and the 3rd market for Jaguar cars in all over the world, for giving all you some examples of our life level here... This Royal Crown dealers have the tools room (i do not know how you say in english where the mechanichs works...) cohabitated with RR, Bentley, Lotus and ferrari cars. Well, as i was saying, is possible to buy the RR363 to them to the "nice" price of 30,5 Euros plus 16% VAT the 1 litter bottle. I have just did a complete flush and renew of my hydraulic system by them. I was charged 315 Euros for the working time (63 Euros/hour) and 95,1 for t3 litters of the RR363 stuff. I do not know if this is cheap or expensive, only i expose you here that. I bought from castrolclassics one box of 12 bottles RR363, for 7,95 Euros, and in my home doors (that´s with shippment) i payd no more than 11 Euros per litter. To the friends from Finland, Sweden, Norway and Greece, still is possible to buy it for a reasonable price from UK, but what would happen once thte dealers selling it in UK detects an increasing amount of orders from outside? surely prices will go up. Believe me. I am familiar (as most of you, surely!!) with the eyes expression of the specialist mechanics when i ask for price for any work in my RR. Their eyes reflects the Euro € symbol!! And they ask for more than double that if it would other car (for a grease work, or any thre rutinary work...) All this speech, was just for agreeing what all said here but Let me please to be a bit more pessimist. As i told in other post, RR does not want to know about what they coll "age models" and bentley refers us to the RRClub in UK. The only reasond for castrol to still delive the RR363 in UK, USA and AU is just the volume they sell actually. I ignore how many RR SS are deathing yearly in these countries, but if the keep not enough profitable for Castrol, the RR363 will be discontinued, as it is yet in Spain, Greece, and Nordic Countries. Is just a matter of time. | ||
| Bill Coburn Grand Master Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 366 Registered: 4-2003 |
Miguel. Espero que mi español sea tan bueno como su inglés. El precio que usted está pagando RR363 es indignante pero por lo menos usted está consiguiendo la materia. En Canberra Australia estoy pagando a $12 por litro y pensé que era costoso. Se parece sin embargo que tenemos que utilizar la materia y franco no pienso que hay mucha ocasión que la continuarán en el futuro previsible. ¡Buena suerte con su coche es grande ver a un entusiasta de tan perseverencia! And for the curious I am trying to say Miguel. I hope my Spanish is as good as your English. The price you are paying for RR363 is outrageous but at least you are getting the stuff. In Canberra Australia I am paying $12 a litre and I thought that was expensive. It seems though that we have to use the stuff and frankly I don’t think there is much chance they will discontinue it in the forseeable future. Good luck with your car it is great to see such a persevering enthusiast! | ||
| Miguel A. Garcia Experienced User Username: magarcia Post Number: 18 Registered: 3-2005 |
Bill, your spanish is clear and fluent!! where did you learn it? Thanks all you for your support. | ||
| Bill Coburn Grand Master Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 367 Registered: 4-2003 |
Miguel/yo tiene algunos trucos encima de mi manga para un viejo hombre. Mi interés principal está guardando cada Rolls-Royce-Royce en el camino mientras que él no está haciendo no más. En Inglaterra América y Australia tenemos clubs que sean atentos en preservar a los clubs más bien que los coches. Esto conduce a los lados sociales del club que toma precedencia sobre el lado técnico. Conseguí así que enfermo de esto formé la te un grupo que está implicado totalmente en el trabajo en los coches. Publicamos un compartimiento mensual y ha habido un interés muy grande por todo el mundo en el movimiento. La semana próxima el club australiano tendrá su reunión federal anual y él espera que unos 400 coches atiendan. ¡Una mañana de una reunión de cinco días se dedica a las materias técnicas!! Tan si usted tiene un problema con su coche que usted necesita ayuda detallada con no vacile preguntarme. | ||
| Robert Wort Grand Master Username: robert_wort Post Number: 168 Registered: 12-2004 |
Alright Bill, I'm curious now! What did you say or is Secret Spanish Business? | ||
| Miguel A. Garcia Experienced User Username: magarcia Post Number: 19 Registered: 3-2005 |
Gracias Bill!! Thank you Bill!! For all other friends here, let´s post in english. . Do you have any census of this cars? |
