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Alan Scard
Experienced User
Username: alanscard

Post Number: 17
Registered: 7-2015
Posted on Sunday, 18 December, 2016 - 03:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

1972 Silver Shadow SRH 13952.
1. The rear brake pads p/ns from my old parts catalogues are Mintex MGB537, Ferodo FD537G(M), Don GDB537. The problem is trying to find someone who stock these parts. IntroCar and Flying Spares have them but at a high price of around £66 Pounds Sterling. Has anyone managed to find an alternative part from perhaps a totally different car so that they fit even if a little fettling has to be done?
2. There seems to be a lot of alternatives for the front pads, but again has anyone actually fitted a set from as an example a Triumph TR6 or a Ford Cortina Mk 2?
Any comments would be appreciated.
Regards Alan in the UK.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1698
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, 18 December, 2016 - 05:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Just my humble opinion from experience with other peoples car . . . Buy original Bentley pads or possibly pattern rear pads (oe anyway) from me or from flying spares. (I do not know what pads intro car supply).

£60 maybe but comes with all clips and springs etc. . last about 10 to 15000 miles . .or ten years if you look after them.

2.5 tonnes. . Expensive discs. . Squeals . . . Fade. . .

£60 quid gets you what? . . Half a tank of fuel or a meal out with drinks for 4 people which will end up down the loo within 48 hours. . . .

False economy.

IMHO.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 2351
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 18 December, 2016 - 06:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Alan,

Sourcing after-market pads is fraught with problems - as far as I am aware from my past experience no manufacturer makes both pads. If you take the front pads to a brake specialist, they will be able to match them with a readily available pad from commercially available stock [if my memory is correct, a GM Holden pad is the Australian equivalent]; the rear pads are always a problem.

Mixing front and rear pads from different suppliers is not a good idea as the pad linings will most likely be of different compositions leading to variations in braking efficiency possibly leading to front/rear wheel lock up in a worst case scenario.

As brake pads are an essential safety item, saving a few dollars could have expensive future consequences. Buying matched front and rear pads from a reputable supplier as Paul Yorke eloquently describes is a "no-brainer" IMHO.
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 775
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Sunday, 18 December, 2016 - 06:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

David,

Do Bendix or Ferrodo or even Repco manufacture/stock Shadow pads here in Australia?
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richard george yeaman
Grand Master
Username: richyrich

Post Number: 669
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Sunday, 18 December, 2016 - 06:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Alan alternative pads are designed to stop cars that are half the weight of a Silver Shadow, I would not use them.

Richard.
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Mark Aldridge
Grand Master
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 375
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Sunday, 18 December, 2016 - 10:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

In my experience using these cars as daily transport for the last 20 years, I would not use anything other than genuine "Crewe " parts ,not only for brakes, but generally where they are available including RR363 in my Shadow.
Mark
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 2353
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 18 December, 2016 - 05:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Patrick,

Not that I am aware of - the last time I went looking for pads for the Corniche was in the late 1990's and my memory is vague however I think the dual front Shadow callipers were the same as those installed on the Holden Statesman of that era plus Repco had PBR kits for overhauling the callipers. I did send one kit to Richard Treacy whilst he was in Switzerland for compatibility testing with RR363. Weldon Brake Supplies at Taren Point found the pads for me and however they could only suggest bonding custom-modified friction material to the original rear backing plates which concerned me from a liability aspect if the car was involved in an accident due to rear brake failure from the lining coming away from the backing plate.

I cannot recall if the replacement pads were made by Repco[PBR] or Bendix but PBR keeps jogging my memory.
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h_kelly
Prolific User
Username: h_kelly

Post Number: 208
Registered: 3-2012
Posted on Sunday, 18 December, 2016 - 08:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

http://brakeparts.co.uk/#!/shop/ROLLS%20ROYCE/SILVER/65-/SILVER%20SHADOW,WRAITH,SPUR%20&%20SPIRIT/Rear%20-%20Brake%20Pads%20and%20Shoes/BPS1583F
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1521
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Monday, 19 December, 2016 - 02:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Hubert

That's a great find.

Whereas I agree only to use OEM parts where safety is an issue, these are Ferodo pads and specifically listed as for the Silver Shadow. Looks to me they would be ok to use.

Has anyone fitted them?

Geoff
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 2355
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, 19 December, 2016 - 06:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Patrick,

I forgot Hardie-Ferodo were probably still in business so they could also have been the manufacturer.
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 1232
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Tuesday, 20 December, 2016 - 01:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

jaguar XJ6 FRONT pads fit with fettling
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 2357
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 20 December, 2016 - 07:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bob,

Are your referring to the Jaguar front pads being a replacement for the Shadow rear pads?

My memory is sourcing non-OEM replacement rear pads was the problem.
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Mark Aldridge
Grand Master
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 378
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Tuesday, 20 December, 2016 - 07:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Given the UK insurance industry attitude to modifications and non standard parts and the current tendancy to void insurance, leaving the uninsured with unlimited personal liability in the event of an accident I would not entertain Bob's suggestion. £80 for a set of rear pads and £120 for a set of fronts seems cheap to me in the circumstances. Realisticly, they are not much more expensive than a genuine set of pads for my Landrover pickup.
Mark
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 1233
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Tuesday, 20 December, 2016 - 08:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

jag XJ6 front series 1 2 and 3.

These pads are slightly too long and a hole needs slotting for the pins to fit.

The legal implications are only relevant if the pads fail which causes an accident.

However the genuine pads are not that expensive when compared to other makes and models of cars.

The choice is up to the owner.

i used to rivet new linings to brake shoes.
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 793
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Tuesday, 20 December, 2016 - 10:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Robert,

I would be a very rich man indeed If I had a dollar for every brake shoe I have riveted linings to.
Either by a foot operated riveting tool, or by hand with a punch.

Of course both methods always required the appropriate clamping tools to ensure the shoes had no air gaps between lining & shoe while riveting.

As well any corrosion was gone before the new shoe applied.

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Mark Aldridge
Grand Master
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 379
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Tuesday, 20 December, 2016 - 10:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The last set of linings I had on my S1, supplied by Bentley, I had to fit myself. The linings supplied for prewar cars that I have owned in the past also had to be riveted on. I made a set of 8 clamps to hold the shoe to the lining to enable riveting and also made my own rivet punches.
Bob,a client got fined as did his operative for an inoperative horn on a tractor after an accident when the implement he was towing was hit in the back ! no fault of the client.
Mark
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 2358
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 20 December, 2016 - 11:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bob and Patrick,

Now you are taking me back to the days of drum brakes all round - if my memory is correct, the advent of disc brakes coincided with the demise of riveted linings which was restricted to drum brake shoes and not disc pads. The disc pads always had bonded linings from their introduction from memory.

I presume this was due to the higher temperatures achieved in the disc pads being sufficient to cause the rivets to expand, come loose and eventually allow the friction material to break away from the backing plate usually at a time when you needed reliable brakes.

My first car had drum brakes and fording river crossings was a regular experience - you quickly learned to drive through the water with the brakes lightly applied then do a full stop from 30/40mph [we were still on the Imperial system] on the climb-out from the crossing to dry them out before proceeding.

You only needed to experience trying to stop the car with wet brake shoes once to quickly learn the importance of drying the brakes after each river crossing .
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 794
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Tuesday, 20 December, 2016 - 11:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Yes Mark,

We see some dumb things in this game.
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Alan Scard
Experienced User
Username: alanscard

Post Number: 18
Registered: 7-2015
Posted on Friday, 23 December, 2016 - 06:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Firstly many thanks to Hubert Kelly for the link to Brakes International in the UK at www.brakesint.co.uk.
I ordered the parts yesterday afternoon, 21st Dec 2016 and they arrived today the 22nd Dec 2016. The cost was £32.32 plus 20% vat making a total in the UK of £38.78 plus £5 p&p, a grand total of £43.77.
Their p/n is BPS158F, made by Ferodo with their p/n of FDB1296.The box states Federal-Mogal Motorparts. The printing on the back of the pad is E9 in a circle followed by Ferodo FF ECO FDB1296. 90R-02A0169/3380 175Y K N16.
As you can see from the photo, my original pads had a waisted metal backing plate. This is shown on the parts diagram in the spare parts manual. I bought them from Straight Eight the local New Forest Bentley dealer under p/n CD 6723 for £44.06 in June 2005. The mileage since then has only been 7745 miles and the pads are hardy worn, but the pad material has just crumbled away and come adrift from the backing plate. I would be interested if anyone else has experienced this and why?
The new pads have the same dimensions i.e. length 111mm, height 70mm and a thickness of 16mm, but are not waisted. On the box it states Bentley Azure 09/95 – 08/99 and Continental 10/91 – 08/99. The Rolls/Bentley p/n is CD6396.
The new pads slide into the calliper ok and if you look carefully at the back plate of the old pad you can just make out where the pistons have made their mark, but due to the waisting not a full circle!. So why the original pads were waisted does not seem to make sense, unless someone has an answer?
Regards Alan
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Alan Scard
Experienced User
Username: alanscard

Post Number: 19
Registered: 7-2015
Posted on Friday, 23 December, 2016 - 06:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The photo did not attach so I will try again.
Regards AlanShadow rear brake pads
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Mark Aldridge
Grand Master
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 380
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Friday, 23 December, 2016 - 07:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Alan, had this problem on a 280E Mercedes fronts years ago. The general opinion was overheating . New discs and pads and problem never reoccurred. The photo shows corrosion ? Could damp be an issue given the little use ?
The part numbers of the late car pads ( post 50000 series SZ) and the Shadow/ earlier SZ cars are different, but the illustration is similar. Wonder what the difference is ?
Mark
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Martin Taylor
Frequent User
Username: martin_taylor

Post Number: 60
Registered: 7-2013
Posted on Friday, 23 December, 2016 - 10:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

This is usually caused by heat, they cannot rust on the bonded side, check your hoses are ok and allowing pressure to release fully, these cars have so much power you could drive all day with the brakes partially on (or until the fire starts at least), mine used to cook like this until I replaces all the hoses.
The pistons can also stick in the bores from rust, what condition are he rubber dust covers in? I put rubber grease around the pistons on mine then put the dust covers on as the MOT man here used to fail it for uneven rear brakes due to sticking from low usage.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1701
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, 23 December, 2016 - 06:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

10 years is about the life of a pad.

Did the pads pull out easily?

I think the reason that the backing is wasted is to try and prevent one of the biggest but least obvious killer of discs.

The part of the pad closest to the centre of the disc seizes in the calliper. This leaves the inner portion of the pads in contact with the disk once the brakes are released.
Initially this will lead to the inner area being worn thinner but then local overheating of the pads and discs cause rusting damage.

Rear pads rarely wear out.

They tend to stick in the callipers of low use cars. Visual inspection tells you nothing.

I suspect that is all that your car has had unless your hoses are closed up and severe overheating has occurred in the past couple of years. Have a feel of the piston dust covers. Overheating makes them hard and brittle.

Even taking the wheel off and squeezing back the pads will not tell you what is going on in the inner area.

Every other year I remove the rear brake pads and clean the callipers and lubricate the metal to metal faces. The pads must slide in and out with just your fingers.

You can also see if the material has become delaminated and crumbly.

Always inspect the disc, especially the inner face, for rusting or wear bands. The whole face should be equally polished.
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 800
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Friday, 23 December, 2016 - 07:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

All great advice and tips gents.

One tip I can give is that after a good motorway drive, I always just put my hand on the hub caps. Anything more than warm may indicate a dragging brake.

I find myself doing this after every long drive I do when walking away from the car.

Just turned into a habit I guess
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 1236
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Saturday, 24 December, 2016 - 08:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I like to pull the wheels off once in a while, fully retract pistons and wiggle the pads around in the calipers and sometimes whip the pads out for a clean up of the edges that rest against the caliper mouth a quick rub with a flat file is good enough. a spot of copper grease.

Retracting the pistons forces the large quantity of fluid in the caliper bore behind the piston back to the reservior when the brakes are applied fresh fluid will replace the old fluid in the calipers. Any air in the old fluid will also go back to the reservior, this is very usefull with master cylinder cars and helps a great deal in bleeding.

Also once in a while a couple of fast stops from say 60 mph clears the glaze off the disks
and pads.

The hand brake needs regular checks because in theory the pads should never wear out but they do. So I like to give the hand brake mechanism lots of slack and work the bits around then re-adjust to maximum clearance I can get away with
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 806
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Saturday, 24 December, 2016 - 08:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I change my fluid every 2 years regardless of distance travelled.
Same with coolant.
Oil every 6 months regardless of mileage.

All cheap insurance in my book.
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Alan Scard
Experienced User
Username: alanscard

Post Number: 20
Registered: 7-2015
Posted on Saturday, 24 December, 2016 - 09:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Many thanks for everyone who have suggested the poor state of my rear pads could be due to overheating. This got me remembering what had happened previously and so I checked the maintenance log that I keep on all my cars.

June 2005, mileage 125,300. Rear offside (R/O/S) brake leaked hydraulic fluid onto the hot disc, with lots of smoke. Renewed all the seals and disc pads on both rear brakes. Handbrake pads were ok.

Mar 2006, mileage 126,200. R/O/S brake caliper leaking AGAIN. On stripping the caliper down, it was obvious that it had got very hot. On discussing this second “same fault within 900 miles” with Bob Stimpson, at Straight Eight, he suggested that the flexible brake pipes had closed up and were acting as a one way valve. This would tend to stop the brake from being released, hence the high heat. I decided to change all the flexible brake hoses, which is scheduled to be done at 96,000 miles. Changed all 4 rear brake hoses, both high-pressure hoses were blocked, but the 2 low pressure (master cylinder) were clear. Although the o/d of the hose is approximately 7/6” the inner bore is only 1/8”. The 2 rat trap hoses and the 4 on the front calipers had already been changed. The old hoses had a herring bone pattern to the outside rubber whilst the new ones are striated. Changed the brake caliper seals on the r/o/s. Checked the condition of the r/n/s caliper rubbers, but as I had already changed them recently, they did not need any attention.

This would indicate that the heat damage had happened back in 2006, approx. 7000 miles ago. The rubber seals are still nice and soft and the new Ferodo FDB 1296 pads, without any waisting fit perfectly. I then checked the other side (R/N/S) pads and was surprised to find the following. The pads were hardly worn and in very good condition, but NOT waisted. I vaguely remember that back in 2005 when I bought them from Striaght Eight they only had in stock 1 side of the “correct waisted” pads but sold me the other side being “none waisted”. The rubber seals were again nice and soft and although the original pads were serviceable, I have fitted the new Ferodo FDB 1296 pads.

Regards Alan
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John Beech
Prolific User
Username: jbeech

Post Number: 128
Registered: 10-2016
Posted on Saturday, 24 December, 2016 - 10:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Robert Noel wrote . . . "jaguar XJ6 FRONT pads fit with fettling" Leaving me to wonder; what is fettling? Subsequently, Robert also wrote . . . "These pads are slightly too long and a hole needs slotting for the pins to fit."

Is fettling the act of slotting the hole and/or trimming the pad-length to make a good fit?
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 809
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Saturday, 24 December, 2016 - 10:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

John,
That's how things used to be done in the past mate.
We all did it at one stage, due to an emergency or when something was just not available at all.

Don't fit anything than pads that are made to suit your car mate.

Brake pads are like tyres, they are a purchase of need, not want.
Some people begrudge spending money on parts that don't make the car look or go better, or we can't see them.

A message to,us all, is something I train our salesmen in when it comes to genuine parts, and why these parts are factory specified.
Safety is what we should be spending top money on, not trying to find the cheapest parts available that are made of substandard materials. Tyres are the number one thing customers begrudge spending money on.
Brakes are next.
These 2 things tyres & brakes ensure we can control a vehicle in all sorts of conditions so we don't kill ourselves, loved ones or anyone else.

Do,it right the first time.

Ps
You would be amazed at the tyres I have seen fitted to heavy trucks that are simply not specified for our country.
And these were fitted to 120 ton road trains!!! (These are trucks we run in Australia gents that have more than 2 trailers and run predominately in the outback)
Same goes for brakes that simply work at 30% of the originals due to low friction capabilities, because they are made of rubbish recycled materials. Again fitted to a 72 ton rated B Double (these are trucks we run here between Capitol cities and can be rated up to 90 tons, and regularly dive in built up,areas. )
Let me know if you need to see some images of these trucks.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 1063
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Saturday, 24 December, 2016 - 11:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Any pads fitted I always check that there is no back pressure due to the start of a failing brake hose.
Apply brakes and release and then slacken the calliper bleed screw.
If the fluid squirts out then in most cases the hose will need replacement.
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Alan Scard
Experienced User
Username: alanscard

Post Number: 21
Registered: 7-2015
Posted on Sunday, 25 December, 2016 - 05:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Ref. the Ferodo catalogue http://nikey.by/neoriginal_catalog/Ferodo_Brake_pads.pdf
It states that all Rolls models from 1966 -1990, front pads FDB 1284 & rear pads FDB 1296. The cost of the FDB 1296 rear pads range from £38.78 to £66.54 Pounds Sterling in the UK plus p & p.

Regards Alan
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 811
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Sunday, 25 December, 2016 - 06:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Great post Alan.
Good to let everyone know that OEM equivalent parts are affordable.
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1526
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Sunday, 25 December, 2016 - 07:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I'm going to be controversial here and say the pads Alan has purchased and used are better than the OEM parts.

The diagram below is taken from the SY1 parts manual.

brake pad

The first thing that stands out is the brake pad material extends beyond the backing plate. That introduces an obvious point of weakness. My main criticism however would be the waisted part of the brake pad is not in contact with the channel in the caliper. When the brakes are applied the twisting force caused by the rotation of the disk will be concentrated on the brake pins. The parallel sided pads seem much better to me, since they are supported along their full length by the channel in the caliper. I understand Paul's point of the parallel pads being more likely to seize in their channels, causing thinning of the disk at the point of contact and local overheating, however due to the low mileage these cars now do, usually in good weather, I think the risk of the pads seizing in their channels is now much less.

I note the rear brake pads supplied by Flying Spares look the same as the Ferodo pads Alan has bought (i.e. non-waisted), but at 4 times the price.

Geoff
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2165
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Sunday, 25 December, 2016 - 08:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Alan,

Thanks much for finding the actual catalog entry. Larry Halpert's Rolls-Royce/Bentley Substitute Parts Webpage identified these (possibly from a Ferodo catalog) long ago as the direct replacement for the pads on the SZ cars and you can "work you way back" to the SY series based on the Crewe Genuine Replacement Parts Guide for Brake Shoes, Pads, & Discs for model years 1955-1989, TSD 5673. What's interesting is Crewe's part numbers (and it appears "number of parts" in terms of pads as well) for the front and back pads both change during the production run of the cars.

Just for the record, here's the snip directly from the Ferodo catalog (I added the column headings that are at the top of the page again since I wanted just the Rolls-Royce entry):

Ferodo RR Brake Pads Catalog Page

Since I hate it when catalogs like this one are entirely image PDF and not searchable, I ran OCR processing on the file. If anyone would like to download a copy that is searchable: 2011 Ferodo Brake Pads, Discs, Shoes & Accessories Catalog - Searchable.

To follow on to Geoff's post, I have had private correspondence and done plenty of my own homework with regard to brake pads. Virtually any brake pad you can name can be and is fitted to multiple vehicles, and often vehicles very unlike each other in size and weight. So long as they're good for the "most strenuous case" and they're from a quality maker, and there are lots of those other than Ferodo, they're perfectly up to the job. If you look at the end of the Ferodo catalog where they get into the specs for the pads you can also see, writ large, how similar a great many different models are and it would appear one of the major differences is "does it fit the brake assembly" rather than having unique qualities otherwise. Crewe Original has most likely sourced brake pads from multiple manufacturers over the decades based on having them made to spec at the lowest price for the production run. Rolls-Royce and Bentley did not operate any differently than any other major auto manufacturer in that regard for service parts. If the spec is met it's met and if the manufacturer has a good reputation they're not going to sacrifice that by producing substandard parts.

Brian
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John Beech
Prolific User
Username: jbeech

Post Number: 131
Registered: 10-2016
Posted on Monday, 26 December, 2016 - 03:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff and Alan, I understand what you're saying about the pad's steel backing being 'waisted' because of how it narrows, and I understand your objection, but I wonder this; why would RR specify this design feature if they didn't want it this way for some, presumably good, reason? While the reason may be obscure, I rather doubt it's simply because they got a good deal on metal backing with a waist-design and thus, made a decision based solely on cost. So I suspect there's a sound engineering reason for what they did (and yes, I agree leaving unsupported pad material seems useless as tits on a boar hog. However, absent more information, I would be loath to fit a different design. More is needed for me in the way of education.

Patrick, I wasn't asking for the purpose of selecting a cheaper alternative, I was asking for confirmation of what fettling meant for purposes of furthering my education regarding the differences in our languages.

Folks, I have no problem fitting an alternative part if it'll do the job. Case in point is the Stant thermostat, which Brian Vogel has (to my entire satisfaction) shown to be a better replacement than the OEM part (read up but in brief, the OEM UE-thermostat uses low-temp Pb for purposes of a fail safe due to a poor design choice in materials). This is especially true when the substitute is a wholly better design based on better application of materials science, 'and' it's better in execution. And I get giddy when it's cheaper as well.

Bottom line? I don't worship at the altar of Rolls-Royce because I know the foibles of both men and necessity are reality. That, and we may know better some 40-50 years after the fact.

Finally, with respect to the rear pads, I am quite willing to be convinced. And Alan and Brian both have gone a long way down that road with the Ferodo references. That said, I would still like to know more about why they specified the 'waisted' backing plate because I'm certain there was some reason. For example, Brian makes the point about the back of the Ferodo catalog and the materials being remarkably similar across cars. This is substantive information of the type I tend to rely on. Alan and Geoff criticize the necking down of the back plate (which I intuitively agree with) but questions remain.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2166
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Monday, 26 December, 2016 - 06:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

John,

The flip side of your position is that Rolls-Royce, like a lot of other auto makers, tried a lot of things that the engineers thought would make for a better result but where theory met practice it did not. Hence the reason that so many "during production" changes that were made. Some, of course, were genuine improvements that weren't available at earlier points in time, others were fixes. The biggest one of those fixes, writ large, is RR363. Prior to that Crewe engineers had gone through three different Girling brake fluids: Amber, Green, & Red (and I'm not sure in what order - you can find the actual progression in the SY section of Chassis Number & Production Changes through SY Series). The second biggest is that UE36600 thermostat needed those lead pellets only because the thermostat was prone to sticking shut secondary to galling on the early ones. There's a reason that no other wax pellet thermostat I've ever encountered has these and no other wax pellet thermostat carries a 2-year replacement interval recommendation. Most are "lifetime" from a practical standpoint.

At this point in history there is no chance that Rolls-Royce Motorcars or Bentley Motors are ever going to recommend specific replacement parts, fluids, etc., for cars that have been out of production for 37 years (SY) and 20 years [or near to it] (SZ). Just like those who own antique vehicles of all varieties it's going to be up to the enthusiast communities that own these cars to figure out "what works" to keep them going along as intended after OEM parts and/or fluids cease to be available at all or are available only at exorbitant prices that current custodians cannot (or will not) pay. It behooves us to identify the functional replacements while we have the luxury of having some OEM parts still available rather than waiting for the supply to dry up and be under unnecessary, "Well, *now* what do I do?!!" pressures. I am under no illusion that the companies as currently owned have any intention of keeping parts for legacy cars available in perpetuity. Those of us with SY and SZ cars have the added comfort of knowing that a huge number of parts on our cars are indeed from well-known third-party manufacturers that sell directly to the aftermarket.

It would not surprise me, even the tiniest bit, if what gets shipped to you in Crewe Original packaging these days are the same Ferodo pads that have already been identified. Crewe does not make the vast majority of Crewe Original parts when those parts are routine service items, and sometimes even when not. I don't have a set lying about to check, but have bought enough Crewe Original parts now (particularly brake hoses) to know that there is nothing special about them. They are simply a quality part made by some quality maker (and there are many) that meets the specifications. If someone's got a set they can look and confirm/refute both the maker and whether or not the waisted back plate is still what's shipped. I very much doubt that it is.

Crewe engineers, like all engineers, can and did make mistakes that were later rectified after "field testing" (by owners) made those mistakes apparent.

One of my favorite quotations, which I sadly cannot give attribution for, is: In theory there is no difference between theory and practice; in practice there is.

Brian
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John Beech
Prolific User
Username: jbeech

Post Number: 135
Registered: 10-2016
Posted on Monday, 26 December, 2016 - 09:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The quote is by Yogi Berra.

Anyway, were the waisted backing shoes replaced at some point in production with non-waisted whilst retaining the same caliper? If yes, then we have an answer and non-waisted is fine for retrofitting.
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 1239
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Tuesday, 27 December, 2016 - 07:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

John,

Fit Ferodo 1296.

Brian has identified the pad. The problem arises because the Shadow is not listed in the brake pad books. once a number is got then it can be cross referenced.

The price of the rear pads at 60 UK spuds is a bit pricey but check out motor bike stuff and you will be surprised.

AS Brian implied because the brake makers dont know what a vehicle is going to be used for they have to use a wide range general purpose lining that work wet or dry hot or cold and 0mph to 120mph.

I always try to keep in mind that when the car was new it worked properly with the bits fitted so changing stuff in the belief that what one is fitting is going to be better, probably not.

The main problem is age RR didnt really expect or care that us lager louts would be fixing their cars 40 years on.

However should 1296 pads be not available then its nice to know that Jag XJ6 and XJ12 front pads fit with easy diy fettling. XJ12 150mph and 2000kg is about the same as 120mph and 2500kg in any case the inertia valve in the Shadow rear brakes will have cut in should on have to pull up quick from speed.

A previous, posting on this thread mentioned a tractor with no horn etc being rear ended etc.

In the advent of an accident the fuzz sometimes check both vehicles for defects, regardless of whose fault.

A mate got rear ended whist stationary at a red light and got done for a dodgy tyre, fix it ticket fortunately.

Incident
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John Beech
Prolific User
Username: jbeech

Post Number: 138
Registered: 10-2016
Posted on Wednesday, 28 December, 2016 - 03:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Robert, Brian, et al. the information about the Ferodo pads is great to have. My question didn't have so much to do with trying to find a low price solution as with learning new terminology - fettling. Now I know what it means, and because I'm not afraid to engage in it the option of the Jaguar bits if the Ferodo aren't available opens another avenue for repair (if it comes to it). I just did the front axle of Lynn's Mercedes Estate. The pads were $68 a set (both wheels) but on top of that was the cost of a pair of new rotors, which was surprisingly inexpensive at $53 each (and I could have saved $5 each if I had opted for the unpainted hub version). My favored mechanic did the job for $112 while the Mercedes dealer wanted $995 and insisted on doing both front and rear at the same time (the front pads were at limits (2mm) and had illuminated the light on the dash recently while the back are at 5mm and nowhere near limit. Seemed silly to do them, but there you have it.

Hmmm, this leads me to wonder this; do we know if Silver Shadow brake rotors were used on anything else? Do we know if they stayed the same through end of production, or if they changed (I seem to recall reading about the rears going from solid to vented rotors at some point in time). Do we know whether there were any changes in diameter? And do we have information on the best price for disk brake rotors, e.g. a preferred supplier?

Finally, a shout out to Brian Vogel for his magnificent effort with the cross-over parts document . . . well done!
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 2362
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 28 December, 2016 - 07:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

John,

Robert Chapman in Melbourne Australia stocks custom-made Shadow front disc rotors and may be able to source rear discs however these are not listed on his website:

http://www.rachapmanautomotive.com.au/parts.htm

As far as I am aware, the front rotors are unique but have no idea regarding the rear rotors. The front discs were redesigned early in the life of the Shadow by RRMC as detailed in the link.
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 1241
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Thursday, 29 December, 2016 - 05:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The front disks were changed to vented disks and a spacer fitted to the front caliper halves to accommodate the extra thickness of the disk.

The rear are solid because vented disks are unnecessary on most cars because when the brakes are used hard the front does most of the braking due to weight transference, the Shadow could have used rear drum brakes with the advantage of a better hand brake. Because the Shadow has a rear brake G valve the rear wheels wont skid.

Both front and rear disks are special to RR and no alternatives are available.

Be thankful that all the bits for the Shadow are available even bits for older Fords can be difficult and for an engineering point of view it costs just as much to make say a heater valve one a one off basis for a Ford as it does a Rolls-Royce.

I have checked my brake pad list and the price of the front pads Ford type is £15 for set of 4 and the jag XJ6 pads are £25. Fitting kit front £10 per set of 4 and £10 for rear. So £85 total.

As I said the choice is up to the owner.

But just because you are fitting spurious pads use good quality stuff such as Ferodo, dont use cheapo compressed chicken sh1t linings.

I at present have Mintex linings front and rear.

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